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BrilloPad
16th August 2017, 10:58
UK unemployment falls to new 42-year low - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40947087)

This is terrible! The UK must agree to rejoin now!

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 11:18
UK unemployment falls to new 42-year low - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40947087)

This is terrible! The UK must agree to rejoin now!

When did the UK leave the EU? Missed that one.

Platypus
16th August 2017, 11:19
It IS terrible news: at the same time, the Beeb said that wages are falling in real terms

Benny
16th August 2017, 11:19
And shock horror...one in five of those unemployed are migrants (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/16/one-five-unemployed-people-uk-migrantsofficial-figures-reveal/)

If we got rid of the migrants and Euro trash (possibly the same thing) how well would the employment figures improve?

BlasterBates
16th August 2017, 11:27
And shock horror...one in five of those unemployed are migrants (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/16/one-five-unemployed-people-uk-migrantsofficial-figures-reveal/)

If we got rid of the migrants and Euro trash (possibly the same thing) how well would the employment figures improve?

Most of the unemployed "migrants" are from non-EU countries and percentage wise EU migrants have a lower unemployment rate than the UK trash.

All in all if the EU migrants were to go home the economy would shrink, then the proportion of trash to the rest of the population would rise due to the fact that there is more trash in the UK population.

Benny
16th August 2017, 11:50
Most of the unemployed "migrants" are from non-EU countries and percentage wise EU migrants have a lower unemployment rate than the UK trash.

All in all if the EU migrants were to go home the economy would shrink, then the proportion of trash to the rest of the population would rise due to the fact that there is more trash in the UK population.
More shock horror!
EU migrants without a job make up city the size of Bristol (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/12/eu-migrants-without-job-make-city-size-bristol/)


One in seven of the 2,733,000 EU migrants aged 16-64 - a total of 390,000 - are unemployed or “inactive”.

:eek:

original PM
16th August 2017, 11:50
Most of the unemployed "migrants" are from non-EU countries and percentage wise EU migrants have a lower unemployment rate than the UK trash.

All in all if the EU migrants were to go home the economy would shrink, then the proportion of trash to the rest of the population would rise due to the fact that there is more trash in the UK population.

Indeed and one of the reason people voted to leave the EU is so that we could concentrate on removing and re-educating the 'trash' as opposed to glossing over the problem with immigration.

But I suppose as long as the cost of your Mocha-ChocaChino with Pumpkin spice does not go up you will always see being in the EU as a benefit.

OwlHoot
16th August 2017, 11:51
When did the UK leave the EU? Missed that one.

Standard Remainer "having your cake and eating it" ploy.

If anything bad happens it's because we're leaving the EU. But anything good happening is because we're still in the EU.

:laugh

OwlHoot
16th August 2017, 11:56
It IS terrible news: at the same time, the Beeb said that wages are falling in real terms

The Biased Broadcasting Corporation is very selective when it comes to reporting EU-related news, especially any unfavourable to its Remainer narrative.

A week or so ago the Economist and/or London School of Economics (both ardent Remainers BTW) released the results of a large survey involving 20,000 people. As I recall, these results said that about 70% of those who had voted to Remain were now firmly of the belief we should leave, with a hard Brexit if necessary.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a link to this, because needless to say there is no mention of it on Aljabeeba.

edit: Ah it's here, or referenced within one of the comments:

2017-08-11 Remoaners lose as voters strongly back 'hard Brexit' (https://order-order.com/2017/08/11/remoaners-lose-as-voters-strongly-back-hard-brexit/)

SueEllen
16th August 2017, 12:01
The Biased Broadcasting Corporation is very selective when it comes to reporting EU-related news, especially any unfavourable to its Remainer narrative.

A week or so ago the Economist and/or London School of Economics (both ardent Remainers BTW) released the results of a large survey involving 20,000 people. As I recall, these results said that about 70% of those who had voted to Remain were now firmly of the belief we should leave, with a hard Brexit if necessary.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a link to this, because needless to say there is no mention of it on [b]Aljabeeba[/b[.

Racist!

Seriously insult the Beeb but not a broadcaster from another country who has feck all to do with it.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 12:04
Most of the unemployed "migrants" are from non-EU countries and percentage wise EU migrants have a lower unemployment rate than the UK trash.

All in all if the EU migrants were to go home the economy would shrink, then the proportion of trash to the rest of the population would rise due to the fact that there is more trash in the UK population.

Trash - how offensive!

BlasterBates
16th August 2017, 12:04
Indeed and one of the reason people voted to leave the EU is so that we could concentrate on removing and re-educating the 'trash' as opposed to glossing over the problem with immigration.

But I suppose as long as the cost of your Mocha-ChocaChino with Pumpkin spice does not go up you will always see being in the EU as a benefit.

That's a bit of a myth, because unemployment in the UK is short term, there are very few long term unemployed. If you stop migrants then you simply shrink the UK economy, basic arithmetic is that every year 200,000 people retire and are not replaced by young people. Basically you'll find the economy collapses without migration.

The result of no migration will be filthy streets, DIY medical treatment and living off a diet of potatos dug up from your back yard.

Doubt very much that the government will cut migration. Any cuts in EU migration will be matched by an increase in non-EU migration. The UK has huge public and private debts. It can't afford to shrink the economy.

OwlHoot
16th August 2017, 12:07
Racist!

Seriously insult the Beeb but not a broadcaster from another country who has feck all to do with it.

Well it was a joke name, and in its own way the BBC is probably more biased than Al Jazeera.

But that said ...

Al Jazeera controversies and criticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism)



Al Jazeera has been criticized for being state media owned by Qatar.[1][16][17][18][19][20] In 2010, United States Department of State internal communications, released by WikiLeaks as part of the 2010 diplomatic cables leak, claim that the Qatar government manipulates Al Jazeera coverage to suit political interests ...

BrilloPad
16th August 2017, 12:07
More shock horror!
EU migrants without a job make up city the size of Bristol (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/12/eu-migrants-without-job-make-city-size-bristol/)



:eek:

Can we just bomb Bristol?

BrilloPad
16th August 2017, 12:09
That's a bit of a myth, because unemployment in the UK is short term, there are very few long term unemployed. If you stop migrants then you simply shrink the UK economy, basic arithmetic is that every year 200,000 people retire and are not replaced by young people. Basically you'll find the economy collapses without migration.

The result of no migration will be filthy streets, DIY medical treatment and living off a diet of potatos dug up from your back yard.

Doubt very much that the government will cut migration. Any cuts in EU migration will be matched by an increase in non-EU migration. The UK has huge public and private debts. It can't afford to shrink the economy.

There are plenty of Uber/Taxi drivers who will have nothing to do when cars are self drive. They can do it all.

Oh wait! Robots will do all those jobs anyway.

They will be able to blow your nose, wipe your 4rse and tie your shoelaces. It will save your mother a job.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 12:10
That's a bit of a myth, because unemployment in the UK is short term, there are very few long term unemployed. If you stop migrants then you simply shrink the UK economy, basic arithmetic is that every year 200,000 people retire and are not replaced by young people. Basically you'll find the economy collapses without migration.

The result of no migration will be filthy streets, DIY medical treatment and living off a diet of potatos dug up from your back yard.

Doubt very much that the government will cut migration. Any cuts in EU migration will be matched by an increase in non-EU migration. The UK has huge public and private debts. It can't afford to shrink the economy.

Ideally we want to neither contract nor grow and maintain a modest balance and gentler footprint on our fragile planet.

motoukenin
16th August 2017, 12:12
UK unemployment falls to new 42-year low - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40947087)

This is terrible! The UK must agree to rejoin now!

Dont worry folks just another leaver who has not realised that we have not left yet and does not understand the huge impact tariffs will have , freedom of movement of skilled and unskilled staff on employees just packing up and going abroad, drop in investment as lets face it most companies invest here because they have access to a 2 trillion Euro market , loss of banking , car manufacturing and aerospace jobs as they require free movement of parts and services stop and not to mention (ooops! I did) the investment in high tech industries that are too expensive for one country alone (Unless you have an economy like the USA or China) to invest in like Nuclear Fusion , but bring a huge number of high paid jobs here.

When we have actually left and time for all of these damaging effects start to kick in , I will come back to this post and we can discuss over some chlorinated chicken what the effects are then.

BrilloPad
16th August 2017, 12:13
Ideally we want to neither contract nor grow and maintain a modest balance and gentler footprint on our fragile planet.

Or we can try to colonize other planets. Though if Bremoaners have anything to do with it, they will end up like colons.

barrydidit
16th August 2017, 12:14
The Biased Broadcasting Corporation is very selective when it comes to reporting EU-related news, especially any unfavourable to its Remainer narrative.

Balls. Radio 4 this morning had an interview with an Irish Fianna Fail politician who said the proposed borderless zone was a rubbish idea because it would create a smuggler's charter. He thought the non-EU tariffed goods that GB got access to would be smuggled into the Republic and cause all sorts of economic chaos. :laugh

BlasterBates
16th August 2017, 12:15
Trash - how offensive!

Just throwing Benny's language back at him.

:D

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 12:22
More shock horror!
EU migrants without a job make up city the size of Bristol (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/12/eu-migrants-without-job-make-city-size-bristol/)



:eek:

Doesn't economically inacitve include stay-at-home mums and dads?

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 12:23
Dont worry folks just another leaver who has not realised that we have not left yet and does not understand the huge impact tariffs will have , freedom of movement of skilled and unskilled staff on employees just packing up and going abroad, drop in investment as lets face it most companies invest here because they have access to a 2 trillion Euro market , loss of banking , car manufacturing and aerospace jobs as they require free movement of parts and services stop and not to mention (ooops! I did) the investment in high tech industries that are too expensive for one country alone (Unless you have an economy like the USA or China) to invest in like Nuclear Fusion , but bring a huge number of high paid jobs here.

When we have actually left and time for all of these damaging effects start to kick in , I will come back to this post and we can discuss over some chlorinated chicken what the effects are then.

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/greenland-gdp@2x.png?s=greenlandgdp&v=201707112028v&d1=19170101&d2=20171231&type=area

Greenland left in 1985.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 12:26
Dont worry folks just another leaver who has not realised that we have not left yet and does not understand the huge impact tariffs will have , freedom of movement of skilled and unskilled staff on employees just packing up and going abroad, drop in investment as lets face it most companies invest here because they have access to a 2 trillion Euro market , loss of banking , car manufacturing and aerospace jobs as they require free movement of parts and services stop and not to mention (ooops! I did) the investment in high tech industries that are too expensive for one country alone (Unless you have an economy like the USA or China) to invest in like Nuclear Fusion , but bring a huge number of high paid jobs here.

When we have actually left and time for all of these damaging effects start to kick in , I will come back to this post and we can discuss over some chlorinated chicken what the effects are then.

Nuclear Fusion!

We are better off championing tide wind and solar.

Lower cost, faster to develop and realise the potential.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 12:28
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/greenland-gdp@2x.png?s=greenlandgdp&v=201707112028v&d1=19170101&d2=20171231&type=area

Greenland left in 1985.

Could you plot the Danish subsidy in there please as well?

WTFH
16th August 2017, 12:34
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/greenland-gdp@2x.png?s=greenlandgdp&v=201707112028v&d1=19170101&d2=20171231&type=area

Greenland left in 1985.

Due to something that doesn't exist (according to the unscientific/Brexiters), farming in agriculture in Greenland has increased greatly over the last couple of decades as has tourism and the building of hydro-electric power stations with all the melting ice.
But still, 25% of their GDP comes directly from Denmark

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 12:35
Could you plot the Danish subsidy in there please as well?

Why? Do they get more since leaving the EU?

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 12:38
Why? Do they get more since leaving the EU?

Their 2912 subsidy was $650 million, so I would guess so.

The thing is Greenland is not an economy that is easily comparable to the UK. There are a lot of things about Greenland that are highly unusual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greenland


The economy of Greenland can be characterized as small, mixed and vulnerable.[4] Greenland's economy consists of a big public sector and comprehensive foreign trade, which has resulted in an economy with periods of strong growth, considerable inflation, unemployment problems and extreme dependence on capital inflow from Denmark and use of outside, mainly Danish, skilled labor.[4]

GDP per capita is similar to the average European economies but the economy is critically dependent upon substantial support from the Danish government, which supplies about half the revenues of the home rule government who in turn employs 10,307 Greenlanders [5] out 25,620 currently in employment (2015). Unemployment nonetheless remains high, with the rest of the economy dependent upon demand for exports of shrimp and fish.[6]

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 12:43
Their 2912 subsidy was $650 million, so I would guess so.

The thing is Greenland is not an economy that is easily comparable to the UK. There are a lot of things about Greenland that are highly unusual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greenland

A hefty sum, but do they get more since leaving the EU ( % terms)?

If you have a better example for an economy that has left the EU please post it here...

How about Sweden's and Austria's economy joining in 1995:

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/sweden-gdp@2x.png?s=wgdpswed&v=201707091929v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/austria-gdp@2x.png?s=wgdpasti&v=201707091929v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area

Finland joined in 1995 too...

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/finland-gdp@2x.png?s=wgdpfinl&v=201707091929v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area

WTFH
16th August 2017, 12:48
Sweden? You mean that socialist state where they welcome migrants?

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 12:49
I don't see an immediate economic boom for joining...

Three countries joined in 1995 and all three had flatline growth.

But Greenland leaves and GDP picks up.

Hmm.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 12:51
A hefty sum, but do they get more since leaving the EU ( % terms)?

If you have a better example for an economy that has left the EU please post it here...

How about Sweden's economy joining in 1995:

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/sweden-gdp@2x.png?s=wgdpswed&v=201707091929v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area

There is no example of a major economy leaving the EU. Greenland would be a microstate (taking a population view) if it were a sovereign state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministate#By_population

With its heavy economic reliance on Greenland it's hard to transfer any lessons to the UK.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 12:58
It would be awfully quiet here if only UK resident Remainers commented.

WTFH
16th August 2017, 13:00
We are, as yet the Brexit response is to ignore questions and change the topic when challenged.

It would be nice if actually contractors who voted for Brexit were the ones to make the comments, as there's a chance they might be smarter than most of the responses we currently get.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 13:01
It would be awfully quiet here if only UK resident Remainers commented.

Like a safe space for Brexiteers?

WTFH
16th August 2017, 13:02
I don't see an immediate economic boom for joining...

Three countries joined in 1995 and all three had flatline growth.

But Greenland leaves and GDP picks up.

Hmm.

Stick the Greenland GDP graph over the UK one and tell me where the massive difference is.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:06
We are, as yet the Brexit response is to ignore questions and change the topic when challenged.

It would be nice if actually contractors who voted for Brexit were the ones to make the comments, as there's a chance they might be smarter than most of the responses we currently get.

For the time being you'll just have to stick with us lot. What's the saying? No point crying over spilt milk, but you can moan insistently on CUK instead.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:07
Like a safe space for Brexiteers?

Isn't that RoI? Sorry, wrong lot.

sasguru
16th August 2017, 13:07
It would be nice if actually contractors who voted for Brexit were the ones to make the comments, as there's a chance they might be smarter than most of the responses we currently get.

Indeed. This forum, as I have observed before, is full of provincials, permies, public sector bods and the un/under employed, who think that what happens in "that London" will not affect them in the least.
:laugh:laugh

BrilloPad
16th August 2017, 13:09
It would be nice if no-one commented on Brexit.

ESPECIALLY those who are not in the UK.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:09
Indeed. This forum, as I have observed before, is full of provincials, permies, public sector bods and the un/under employed, who think that what happens in "that London" will not affect them in the least.
:laugh:laugh

The irony being, it probably won't.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 13:11
It would be nice if no-one commented on Brexit.

ESPECIALLY those who are not in the UK.

It would be comfortable for the idiots who perpetrated this cluster****, but where's the fun in that?

WTFH
16th August 2017, 13:11
It would be nice if no-one commented on Brexit.

ESPECIALLY those who are not in the UK.

It would be nice if this forum was just for Contractors from the UK or those wanting to work here.

But we can't have everything.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:13
But we can't have everything.

An important lessons that needs to be learnt early on in life.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 13:13
It would be nice if this forum was just for Contractors from the UK or those wanting to work here.

But we can't have everything.

It would be nice if Brexit was going to work out just fine.

But we can't have everything.

SueEllen
16th August 2017, 13:14
Indeed. This forum, as I have observed before, is full of provincials, permies, public sector bods and the un/under employed, who think that what happens in "that London" will not affect them in the least.
:laugh:laugh

Speak about yourself.

Last time I checked I lived in London, and have seen removal lorries from foreign countries arrive to take the belongings of families back to an EU country.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:14
It would be nice if Brexit was going to work out just fine.

But we can't have everything.

And it could have been so easily avoided.

sasguru
16th August 2017, 13:15
The irony being, it probably won't.

Let's see what happens in the regions after Brexit. :laugh:laugh

WTFH
16th August 2017, 13:16
And it could have been so easily avoided.

You're not wrong there. Brexit could have been so easily avoided, but Murdoch and Dacre wanted it to happen, so they convinced their worshippers that it must happen. They are still convincing them that it should be death to the infidel unbelievers.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 13:19
And it could have been so easily avoided.

But that would have required tackling the excesses of the tabloid press over the last 40 years - not that easy really.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:21
You're not wrong there. Brexit could have been so easily avoided, but Murdoch and Dacre wanted it to happen, so they convinced their worshippers that it must happen. They are still convincing them that it should be death to the infidel unbelievers.

Levels of immigration have been unprecedent. Not entirely due to our EU membership, but that was a factor and, like all such events, it's not just one thing. Take the piss out of someone's genuine concerns and you're likely to get a two fingered response.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:22
But that would have required tackling the excesses of the tabloid press over the last 40 years - not that easy really.

Such things never are, but doing something about the obvious problems wouldn't have hurt.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 13:27
Levels of immigration have been unprecedent. Not entirely due to our EU membership, but that was a factor and, like all such events, it's not just one thing. Take the piss out of someone's genuine concerns and you're likely to get a two fingered response.

People are taking the piss out of Brexit as a response to the concern (and of course to the genuine concern that Turkey is joining the EU). Non-EU immigration has been within the government's control, so there were clearly simpler solutions to immigration than Brexit.

I can of course see that Brexiteers will be reacting crossly to the clever meanies, as it dawns on them that they've screwed up the economy. We are nearly there though. We see less and less of Brexiteers claiming it's going to work out great. It's increasingly about whose fault the mess is.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 13:28
Such things never are, but doing something about the obvious problems wouldn't have hurt.

Lack of critical thinking skills? Another complex issue.

WTFH
16th August 2017, 13:29
Such things never are, but doing something about the obvious problems wouldn't have hurt.

You mean like our Home Secretary could have done something about our sovereign borders
And our government could have enacted some sovereign laws

...but they chose not to, in the hope that the rags could convince their worshippers that it was not Westminster doing sweet FA, but that Europe was stopping Westminster from doing anything at all.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:39
You mean like our Home Secretary could have done something about our sovereign borders
And our government could have enacted some sovereign laws

...but they chose not to, in the hope that the rags could convince their worshippers that it was not Westminster doing sweet FA, but that Europe was stopping Westminster from doing anything at all.

Best go and speak to your MP about that. Trouble is no one did.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 13:39
Stick the Greenland GDP graph over the UK one and tell me where the massive difference is.

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/greenland-gdp@2x.png?s=greenlandgdp&v=201707112028v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area&url2=/united-kingdom/gdp

Well Greenland left in 1985 and look to be doing OK...

Not much of a difference to their economic growth compared to ours.

So how come Sweden, Finland, and Austria had five years of flat/falling GDP when they joined the EU?

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:42
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/greenland-gdp@2x.png?s=greenlandgdp&v=201707112028v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area&url2=/united-kingdom/gdp

Well Greenland left in 1985 and look to be doing OK...

Not much of a difference to their economic growth compared to ours.

So how come Sweden, Finland, and Austria had five years of flat/falling GDP when they joined the EU?

Fancy popping Greece's data over that too?

OwlHoot
16th August 2017, 13:44
Non-EU immigration has been within the government's control, so there were clearly simpler solutions to immigration than Brexit.

Out of interest, why do you think the last Tory government made absolutely no effort to curb this non-EU migration, running to several hundred thousand people a year, despite their manifesto commitment to do so?

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 13:47
Fancy popping Greece's data over that too?

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/greenland-gdp@2x.png?s=greenlandgdp&v=201707112028v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area&url2=/greece/gdp

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 13:48
Out of interest, why do you think the last Tory government made absolutely no effort to curb this non-EU migration, running to several hundred thousand people a year, despite their manifesto commitment to do so?

The tens of thousands figure was a bit of a cock-up, accidentally quoted by one minster and then became gospel if I’m not mistaken. Ironically, it is was a lot of people actually wanted.

BlasterBates
16th August 2017, 13:55
One thing that never fails to amuse me is when immigration is given as the main reason to vote leave. Voting to leave the EU to solve the immigration problem is a bit like trying to fix the car by replacing the wheels when the spark plugs are broken.

:D

WTFH
16th August 2017, 13:55
I don't see an immediate economic boom for joining...

Three countries joined in 1995 and all three had flatline growth.

But Greenland leaves and GDP picks up.

Hmm.




https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/greenland-gdp@2x.png?s=greenlandgdp&v=201707112028v&d1=19850816&d2=20080816&type=area&url2=/united-kingdom/gdp

Well Greenland left in 1985 and look to be doing OK...

Not much of a difference to their economic growth compared to ours.

So how come Sweden, Finland, and Austria had five years of flat/falling GDP when they joined the EU?

So Greenland left and their GDP did not pick up by any rate more than the UK did, but you consider that evidence that it picked up.

Sweden and Austria joined and their GDP graph also mirrors that of the UK, but instead of saying they picked up, like you did for Greenland, you say they flatlined.

Are you sure you know what you're looking at?

sasguru
16th August 2017, 13:57
Are you sure you know what you're looking at?

I'd wager not. Educational standards nowadays.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 13:57
One thing that never fails to amuse me is when immigration is given as the main reason to vote leave. Voting to leave the EU to solve the immigration problem is a bit like trying to fix the car by replacing the wheels when the spark plugs are broken.

:D

Not really.

The_Equalizer
16th August 2017, 14:00
One thing that never fails to amuse me is when immigration is given as the main reason to vote leave. Voting to leave the EU to solve the immigration problem is a bit like trying to fix the car by replacing the wheels when the spark plugs are broken.

:D

Remainers do a good line in inappropriate, simplistic analogies. Is it because they're mainly not very bright and can't really analyse complex issues.?

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:00
So Greenland left and their GDP did not pick up by any rate more than the UK did, but you consider that evidence that it picked up.

Sweden and Austria joined and their GDP graph also mirrors that of the UK, but instead of saying they picked up, like you did for Greenland, you say they flatlined.

Are you sure you know what you're looking at?

I think in actuality all the charts show that in or out of the EU all European economies presented seem to have remarkably similar GDP for the timescales in question. Which is probably reflective of wider macro economic factors such as global growth, oil prices, technological advances etc...

BlasterBates
16th August 2017, 14:04
Remainers do a good line in inappropriate, simplistic analogies. Is it because they're mainly not very bright and can't really analyse complex issues.?

So you think the freedom of movement will end in 2019.

:D

When the UK does a deal with all the other countries they will all be expecting a relaxation of the visa requirements.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 14:04
I think in actuality all the charts show that in or out of the EU all European economies presented seem to have remarkably similar GDP for the timescales in question. Which is probably reflective of wider macro economic factors such as global growth, oil prices, technological advances etc...

No major economy has left the EU, so you have no historical reference point.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:06
No major economy has left the EU, so you have no historical reference point.

Quite, in the absence of that, we can only look at Greenland who show growth at that turbulent time.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:07
Quite, in the absence of that, we can only look at Greenland who show growth at that turbulent time.

Perhaps we should look at the ussr Break up and say the Ukraine growth?

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/ukraine-gdp@2x.png?s=ukrainegdp&v=201707091929v&d1=19800816&d2=20080816&type=area&url2=/russia/gdp

WTFH
16th August 2017, 14:09
I think in actuality all the charts show that in or out of the EU all European economies presented seem to have remarkably similar GDP for the timescales in question. Which is probably reflective of wider macro economic factors such as global growth, oil prices, technological advances etc...

In other words, your charts prove nothing, but you still want to say that Greenland grew while Sweden and Austria flatlined.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 14:10
Quite, in the absence of that, we can only look at Greenland who show growth at that turbulent time.

If you want to take comfort in the experience of a Danish dependency (therefore and Overseas Country and Territory of the EU) with a population of <0.1% of the UK, then go ahead. No point in arguing further with that particular idiocy.

sasguru
16th August 2017, 14:11
Quite, in the absence of that, we can only look at Greenland who show growth at that turbulent time.

Greenland is a tiny country (in pop terms) which essentially depends on a EU country for survival.
Still we'll find out soon enough, if you're wrong and the UK economy collapses you can always use the excellent logical and analytical skills you've shown in this thread to work abroad, right?

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:11
In other words, your charts prove nothing, but you still want to say that Greenland grew while Sweden and Austria flatlined.

Greenland grew in 1985 when they left.

Sweden Austria Finland flatlined in 1995 when they joined.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:12
If you want to take comfort in the experience of a Danish dependency (therefore and Overseas Country and Territory of the EU) with a population of <0.1% of the UK, then go ahead. No point in arguing further with that particular idiocy.

See Ukraine above...

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 14:13
See Ukraine above...

See 'No point in arguing further with that particular idiocy' above...

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:17
See 'No point in arguing further with that particular idiocy' above...

By all means provide some real world examples to argue your views.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 14:18
By all means provide some real world examples to argue your views.

There are no real world examples of major economies leaving the EU.

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:21
There are no real world examples of major economies leaving the EU.

So it's pure conjecture as to what will happen then.

All this who's right / wrong b0ll0cks is meaningless.

flamel
16th August 2017, 14:26
Like a safe space for Brexiteers?

Looks like there's a great need for a safe space for Brexiteer types.... what with the banning of the Daily Stormer.

On the positive side, I hear there may be some spare statues from Charlottesville to act as mascots for the next Brexiteer meeting

Benny
16th August 2017, 14:26
Sweden? You mean that socialist state where they welcome migrants?

:rolleyes:

The Nordic country, seen as the best to be an immigrant, is confronting limits to its hospitality to outsiders. (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2017-07-10/immigration-forces-sweden-to-re-evaluate-its-welfare-state)

:rolleyes:

How Sweden, the most open country in the world, was overwhelmed by migrants (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/11992479/How-Sweden-the-most-open-country-in-the-world-was-overwhelmed-by-migrants.html)

:rolleyes:

Sweden’s immigrants struggle with jobs and integration (https://www.ft.com/content/838d60c2-0961-11e7-97d1-5e720a26771b?mhq5j=e1)

:rolleyes:

Refugees in Sweden adjust to anti-migrant sentiment (https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-06-20/refugees-sweden-adjust-anti-migrant-sentiment-and-tougher-asylum-laws)

:rolleyes:

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 14:27
So it's pure conjecture as to what will happen then.

All this who's right / wrong b0ll0cks is meaningless.

No. There are no historical examples. So you talking about Greenland is nonsense. What it needs is some analysis. Plenty of that around. All that remains now is to get the popcorn.

BlasterBates
16th August 2017, 14:42
If we could revisit the car analogy again.

Spark plugs = refugees
Wheels = EU migrants

Fixing the air conditioning or replacing the windscreen wipers won't help you if you've run out of petrol.


:D

PurpleGorilla
16th August 2017, 14:47
If we could revisit the car analogy again.

Spark plugs = refugees
Wheels = EU migrants

Fixing the air conditioning or replacing the windscreen wipers won't help you if you've run out of petrol.


:D

Nurse says it's time for your medication.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 14:55
Nurse says it's time for your medication.

She would if she hadn't returned to her home country.

woohoo
16th August 2017, 18:06
She would if she hadn't returned to her home country.

Well luckily enough we can go and plunder some other part of the world and steal their cheap nurses rather than train our own up.

northernladyuk
16th August 2017, 18:26
Well luckily enough we can go and plunder some other part of the world and steal their cheap nurses rather than train our own up.

And pay in sterling? Ouch.

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 08:33
And pay in sterling? Ouch.

It's amazing. Whatever we do (and I'm speaking to those of us in the UK) they still keep arriving - you'd think there's something worth coming for. Oddly I find that it's mainly the natives that like moaning about how bad things are. Then again, I suppose to compared to how it was, they are.

WTFH
17th August 2017, 08:54
It's amazing. Whatever we do (and I'm speaking to those of us in the UK) they still keep arriving - you'd think there's something worth coming for. Oddly I find that it's mainly the natives that like moaning about how bad things are. Then again, I suppose to compared to how it was, they are.

But given that many want to stop all migrants coming to the UK, then where will we get nurses from if they aren't allowed in?

SueEllen
17th August 2017, 08:57
But given that many want to stop all migrants coming to the UK, then where will we get nurses from if they aren't allowed in?

British nurses for British patients.

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 09:05
But given that many want to stop all migrants coming to the UK, then where will we get nurses from if they aren't allowed in?

I've never met a Brexiter yet who has said that they don't want anyone coming to the UK. I'm more than happy for nurses - or anyone else the country needs - to come provided they are of good character. There are, however, plenty of perfectly capable young people here that could be trained. Where I am nursing is oversubscribed - why not add more places? If net-immigration wasn't running in the 100Ks we probably wouldn't require so many people.

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 09:06
British nurses for British patients.

Nothing of the sort.

WTFH
17th August 2017, 09:08
British nurses for British patients.

I'm with you on that, unfortunately there are not that many British nurses around, particularly due to the training over recent years being more academic and less practical, which has led to nurses who can calculate doses of drugs very quickly, but can't catheterise a patient and don't spend time doing things like making the beds.
Back 20+ years ago a nursing course was split 50/50 between the classroom and the ward.
You didn't need 4 A levels to be a nurse, you didn't need to be massively gifted academically, it was almost a vocational type course.
When a nurse would make a patient's bed, they would have to get the patient out of bed and onto a seat, they could see the patient's mobility, they could see how much pain the patient was in. They would have a couple minutes while making the bed to chat to the patient. A good nurse would be able to learn a lot about the patient in that time. They would also change bedpans, change catheter bags, etc, where they could observe the colour/consistency, etc.

Now nurses are coming out of university with little practical experience, and then nursing auxiliaries are brought in to do the "menial" tasks that are actually a big part of the caring process.

OwlHoot
17th August 2017, 09:09
If net-immigration wasn't running in the 100Ks we probably wouldn't require so many people.

Also, non-EU immigrants to the UK seem to need a disproportionate amount of medical care themselves, including midwife services for the many children they typically have.

Last time I was in the outpatients of Chelsea & Westminster Hospital about three years ago, practically everyone waiting and milling around there seemed to be from overseas (based on skin colour and speech).

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 09:11
I'm with you on that, unfortunately there are not that many British nurses around, particularly due to the training over recent years being more academic and less practical, which has led to nurses who can calculate doses of drugs very quickly, but can't catheterise a patient and don't spend time doing things like making the beds.
Back 20+ years ago a nursing course was split 50/50 between the classroom and the ward.
You didn't need 4 A levels to be a nurse, you didn't need to be massively gifted academically, it was almost a vocational type course.
When a nurse would make a patient's bed, they would have to get the patient out of bed and onto a seat, they could see the patient's mobility, they could see how much pain the patient was in. They would have a couple minutes while making the bed to chat to the patient. A good nurse would be able to learn a lot about the patient in that time. They would also change bedpans, change catheter bags, etc, where they could observe the colour/consistency, etc.

Now nurses are coming out of university with little practical experience, and then nursing auxiliaries are brought in to do the "menial" tasks that are actually a big part of the caring process.

I've just got the train in with my sister-in-law who is 20 and studying a branch of nursing. She's doing 9-5 placement all summer as her course requires this. They spend most of the time 'out in the field'.

WTFH
17th August 2017, 09:13
Also, non-EU immigrants to the UK seem to need a disproportionate amount of medical care themselves, including midwife services for the many children they typically have.

Last time I was in the outpatients of Chelsea & Westminster Hospital about three years ago, practically everyone waiting and milling around there seemed to be from overseas (based on skin colour and speech).

If only we could have done something to stop non-EU immigration, cause it's not the EU's fault, no matter how some have tried to twist it.

WTFH
17th August 2017, 09:14
I've just got the train in with my sister-in-law who is 20 and studying a branch of nursing. She's doing 9-5 placement all summer as her course requires this. They spend most of the time 'out in the field'.

Yes, it has started to change back in the last couple of years, thankfully.

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 09:15
Yes, it has started to change back in the last couple of years, thankfully.

Indeed.

BlasterBates
17th August 2017, 09:42
If only we could have done something to stop non-EU immigration, cause it's not the EU's fault, no matter how some have tried to twist it.

80% of EU immigrants come to the UK to work, whereas only 20% of non-EU immigrants come to work. Clamping down on EU immigration whilst turning a blind eye to non-EU immigration seems somewhat counter-productive.

The fact is even after the UK leaves the EU, the population will continue to expand almost at the same rate, but the working population will shrink as they clamp down on EU immigration.

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 09:48
I've never met a Brexiter yet who has said that they don't want anyone coming to the UK. I'm more than happy for nurses - or anyone else the country needs - to come provided they are of good character. There are, however, plenty of perfectly capable young people here that could be trained. Where I am nursing is oversubscribed - why not add more places? If net-immigration wasn't running in the 100Ks we probably wouldn't require so many people.

The UK needs to do far more training. Until robots take over.

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 09:51
80% of EU immigrants come to the UK to work, whereas only 20% of non-EU immigrants come to work. Clamping down on EU immigration whilst turning a blind eye to non-EU immigration seems somewhat counter-productive.

The fact is even after the UK leaves the EU, the population will continue to expand almost at the same rate, but the working population will shrink as they clamp down on EU immigration.

I always wondered why non-EU immigration was allowed when it was more than EU migration. Further proof that DC was totally out of touch and only cared for himself. And to think some want JRM to take over as PM!

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 09:52
The UK needs to do far more training. Until robots take over.

I can't work out if the robot thing is either a re-run of the 1970's where they said we'd be having more lesuire time or will it be a real problem?

SueEllen
17th August 2017, 09:53
Also, non-EU immigrants to the UK seem to need a disproportionate amount of medical care themselves, including midwife services for the many children they typically have.

Figures please.



Last time I was in the outpatients of Chelsea & Westminster Hospital about three years ago, practically everyone waiting and milling around there seemed to be from overseas (based on skin colour and speech).

In the meantime in-patients is full of old mainly white men and women - well that is my experience from two different London hospitals.

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 09:55
Figures please.



In the meantime in-patients is full of old mainly white men and women - well that is my experience from two different London hospitals.

Those that have paid in full?

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 10:02
80% of EU immigrants come to the UK to work, whereas only 20% of non-EU immigrants come to work. Clamping down on EU immigration whilst turning a blind eye to non-EU immigration seems somewhat counter-productive.

The fact is even after the UK leaves the EU, the population will continue to expand almost at the same rate, but the working population will shrink as they clamp down on EU immigration.

Although non-working immigrants are obviously costlier than those that work, I understand that you only become a net contributor to the UK Exchequer when you earn over approximately £38K (from memory). How many immigrants are over paid over this? Isn’t that the real question?

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 10:11
I can't work out if the robot thing is either a re-run of the 1970's where they said we'd be having more lesuire time or will it be a real problem?

In 1997 almost all cameras were analog. By 2007 almost all were digital. The robots are coming and its going to lead to real upheaval.

There are many opportunities. However, people need to work. Jackie Onassis reckoned 20 hours a week was about right.

A far bigger issue is that the ruling classes will not like their status being challenged...

Lance
17th August 2017, 10:32
Now nurses are coming out of university with little practical experience, and then nursing auxiliaries are brought in to do the "menial" tasks that are actually a big part of the caring process.

twaddle.
They spend a LOT of time in placement doing actual nursing. They qualify as nurses to be nurses and can do that. Health is one of the few university educations that allows you to go straight into your profession once you've graduated.

They don't change bedpans though. It was decided some years ago that menial work should be done by lower paid people and nurses should get more money. That may or may not have been the right decision, as the menial work needs doing, it's just done by thick twunts with no better education.

contractorinatractor
17th August 2017, 10:54
Although non-working immigrants are obviously costlier than those that work, I understand that you only become a net contributor to the UK Exchequer when you earn over approximately £38K (from memory). How many immigrants are over paid over this? Isn’t that the real question?

Why is this 'obviously costlier' to you? Many families have good financial backing and do not rely on state aid or services. The cost of them being present in the UK can be rather low; plus paying rent or a mortgage. Nil tax take isn't possible, but low tax take is feasible, keeping in mind the state services used may be minimal or, in many cases, not applicable.

I don't enjoy guessing and would prefer these statistics to be made available, then we can perform our own calculations on them. You will notice that such stats are rarely provided, as providing clarity is not something favoured these days, for some reason.

The_Equalizer
17th August 2017, 11:08
Why is this 'obviously costlier' to you? Many families have good financial backing and do not rely on state aid or services. The cost of them being present in the UK can be rather low; plus paying rent or a mortgage. Nil tax take isn't possible, but low tax take is feasible, keeping in mind the state services used may be minimal or, in many cases, not applicable.

I don't enjoy guessing and would prefer these statistics to be made available, then we can perform our own calculations on them. You will notice that such stats are rarely provided, as providing clarity is not something favoured these days, for some reason.

What's the life time cost of someone who stands on their own two feet, including any of their dependents, without any state help? I'm all for stats.

original PM
17th August 2017, 11:12
Why is this 'obviously costlier' to you? Many families have good financial backing and do not rely on state aid or services. The cost of them being present in the UK can be rather low; plus paying rent or a mortgage. Nil tax take isn't possible, but low tax take is feasible, keeping in mind the state services used may be minimal or, in many cases, not applicable.

I don't enjoy guessing and would prefer these statistics to be made available, then we can perform our own calculations on them. You will notice that such stats are rarely provided, as providing clarity is not something favoured these days, for some reason.

It does not really take a genius to recognise that someone arriving on these shores with only the clothes they stand up in will take a while to become a net contributor to the economy.

Obviously hard facts and figures are useful but a very basic thought experiment would get you to the right conclusion.

Ahh I see the problem now.

Its probably in the words basic and thought.

BlasterBates
17th August 2017, 11:15
Well there will still be freedom of movement after Brexit

Freedom of movement to continue, but work permits required after Brexit (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/842176/EU-Immigration-Brexit-Theresa-May-Home-Office-Amber-Rudd-migrant-crisis-work-visa)

OK so a work permit us required, but basically since there are no indigenous Brits to do the work, simply because of demographics i.e. everyone retiring, this will effectively mean no change to EU immigration, i.e. UK companies recruit, EU immigrants come without a visa, rubber stamp of approval from the local immigration office.

This does sound very much like Switzerland.

What this means of course is, if you voted to reduce EU immigration it aint going to happen.

:D

sasguru
17th August 2017, 11:23
It does not really take a genius to recognise that someone arriving on these shores with only the clothes they stand up in will take a while to become a net contributor to the economy.

Obviously hard facts and figures are useful but a very basic thought experiment would get you to the right conclusion.

Ahh I see the problem now.

Its probably in the words basic and thought.

Honestly, you're pulling up someone for lack of brains? :laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

Plemnty of immigrants contribute more than you, I'll wager

These people for example, who "arrived on these shores with only the clothes they stood up in":
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2012/12/ugandan-asians-are-part-of-britains-secret-weapon-for-success/

WTFH
17th August 2017, 11:26
twaddle.
They spend a LOT of time in placement doing actual nursing. They qualify as nurses to be nurses and can do that. Health is one of the few university educations that allows you to go straight into your profession once you've graduated.

They don't change bedpans though. It was decided some years ago that menial work should be done by lower paid people and nurses should get more money. That may or may not have been the right decision, as the menial work needs doing, it's just done by thick twunts with no better education.

Not twaddle at all.
It used to be you had SRNs and Ward Sisters. Neither of those people spent 3 years in a university. "Project 2000" saw the end of hospital teaching and moved everything to universities. That was from the late 80s...
http://www.nhshistory.net/chapter_5.htm#Project_2000

Now to be a nurse you need a bachelor's degree.
https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/bsc-nursing-adult

Thankfully some of the mistakes from Project 2000 are being rectified as the government have realised that the NMC maybe know what they are talking about.

The UK needs about 10,000 new nurses each year. We have university places for around 12,000, but most years 1/3 drop out before completion.
So we have 8,000 new nurses each year coming out of UK universities (that is not to say they are British citizens or even enough generations old British citizens to be acceptable to some on here)
Of those 8,000 many do not go on to pursue a career in the NHS, move away from nursing altogether, or return to their home countries.

7% of nurses in England are from the EU
5.6% are from Asia (mostly India and the Philippines)
2.4% are from Africa
0.7% are from elsewhere
(based on the briefing made in the House of Commons in April 2017)

OwlHoot
17th August 2017, 11:48
Honestly, you're pulling up someone for lack of brains? :laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

Plemnty of immigrants contribute more than you, I'll wager

These people for example, who "arrived on these shores with only the clothes they stood up in":
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2012/12/ugandan-asians-are-part-of-britains-secret-weapon-for-success/

There are probably literally a thousand million people world-wide who individually could "contribute more than average" in the UK given a chance. But there's no way they could all be allowed into the UK.

So it's a specious and unsustainable argument if taken to its logical extreme, and in any case letting in too many immigrants deprives indigenous people of opportunities, and that must be our first and last consideration.

darmstadt
17th August 2017, 13:59
Let's have an 'oh dear' because it is rather sad: Brexit blamed for 260 job losses as UK food supplier Southern Salads collapses into administration | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-southern-salads-administration-job-losses-260-uk-food-supplier-weak-pound-sterling-value-a7898086.html)

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 14:04
Let's have an 'oh dear' because it is rather sad: Brexit blamed for 260 job losses as UK food supplier Southern Salads collapses into administration | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-southern-salads-administration-job-losses-260-uk-food-supplier-weak-pound-sterling-value-a7898086.html)

The devalued currency has made imports more expensive, cutting into the margins of many British businesses and making some unsustainable.

So now we will have to buy British.

I think this calls for a :banana:

sasguru
17th August 2017, 14:05
So it's a specious and unsustainable argument if taken to its logical extreme, and in any case letting in too many immigrants deprives indigenous people of opportunities, and that must be our first and last consideration.

So you've made the calculation that Brexit will provide more opportunities for the indigenous population?:laugh:laugh:laugh:rollin::rollin:
You do sound like someone who's spent the bulk of your life in the public sector.

shaunbhoy
17th August 2017, 18:50
You do sound like someone who's spent the bulk of your life in the public sector.

Says the man that has spent the bulk of his life tied to wifie's coattails!

:laugh

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 18:56
Says the man that has spent the bulk of his life tied to wifie's coattails!

:laugh

Not true! Quite a bit was Mummie's apron strings.

WTFH
17th August 2017, 19:04
Not true! Quite a bit was Mummie's apron strings.

Are you saying he was um... with your mum?

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 19:10
Are you saying he was um... with your mum?

If I found out I was related to that I would top myself.

WTFH
17th August 2017, 19:13
If I found out I was related to that I would top myself.

But it would explain a lot

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 19:15
But it would explain a lot

Alot more would be explained if you were related to Donald Trump.

WTFH
17th August 2017, 19:19
Alot more would be explained if you were related to Donald Trump.

What do you mean, because he's a right wing idiot who can't wait for the UK to leave the EU so he can dismantle the NHS before May gets a chance to?

BrilloPad
17th August 2017, 19:25
What do you mean, because he's a right wing idiot who can't wait for the UK to leave the EU so he can dismantle the NHS before May gets a chance to?

Irrational fear of minority groups(like cyclists).

HTH

shaunbhoy
17th August 2017, 19:42
Are you saying he was um... with your mum?

I think he is suggesting that sas is, and in fact always has been, a mummy's boy.
Which would explain a lot.

HTH

:laugh