PDA

View Full Version : A Brexit Thread from Someone who Didn't Vote



mattfx
3rd October 2017, 08:32
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.

Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 08:35
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.

Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

To be fair, Monarch was probably doomed anyway. But the weak pound will have hastened it.

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 08:45
The vote was: “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?"
It was not “which side do you trust more?” Or “who do you want to lead the country?” or “which politicians do you love/hate more?”
It was: do you want the UK to remain in the EU?

There were as many lies and pieces of misinformation flying around as you would find in an election manifesto, but the question wasn’t “which side do you trust?”
It was a yes or no to staying in the EU.

Big Blue Plymouth
3rd October 2017, 08:46
To be fair, Monarch was probably doomed anyway. But the weak pound will have hastened it.

I read that a lot of it was down to loss of demand for holidays in places like Egypt, Tunisia etc.

ladymuck
3rd October 2017, 08:47
I seem to recall the value of the pound being one of many nails in its coffin.

Please do correct me if I am wrong but the following factors that impacted their bottom line are not Brexit related:
Reduction in tourism following terror attacks in Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey
Increase in cheaper airfares to Spain and Portugal by other low cost operators that they were unable to compete with
Enforced cost cutting from 2014 when they were taken over by private equity firm that probably left them in a position to be less reactive to external pressures

They also failed to get into the low cost long haul market, like Norwegian has, where they possibly could have earned more revenue.

Good to see you didn't vote in the referendum but still think you deserve to have a say in what happens. If you cared so much, you should have put an X in a box.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 08:47
I read that a lot of it was down to loss of demand for holidays in places like Egypt, Tunisia etc.

Yes. And a failing business model versus the 'real' low cost airlines. But the exchange rate caused by the Brexit vote was a contributing factors, so well done Brexiteers.

Paddy
3rd October 2017, 08:47
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.

Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

Did you Google "what is the EU" after the referendum?

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 08:48
I seem to recall the value of the pound being one of many nails in its coffin.

Please do correct me if I am wrong but the following factors that impacted their bottom line are not Brexit related:
Reduction in tourism following terror attacks in Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey
Increase in cheaper airfares to Spain and Portugal by other low cost operators that they were unable to compete with
Enforced cost cutting from 2014 when they were taken over by private equity firm that probably left them in a position to be less reactive to external pressures

They also failed to get into the low cost long haul market, like Norwegian has, where they possibly could have earned more revenue.

Good to see you didn't vote in the referendum but still think you deserve to have a say in what happens. If you cared so much, you should have put an X in a box.

As the majority for Leave was >1, voting wouldn't have made a difference.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 08:54
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.

Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

Heaven forbid you do some research personally into the situation.....also, didn't you get the government leaflet?

So, surely you must have had some 'facts' for remaining right?
(They must have told you about the army, loss of veto, closer union, qualified majority voting)

72% turnout - I think that's sufficient (we have governments from less), what % should we require? 75, 80, 85?

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 09:04
Heaven forbid you do some research personally into the situation.....also, didn't you get the government leaflet?

So, surely you must have had some 'facts' for remaining right?
(They must have told you about the army, loss of veto, closer union, qualified majority voting)

72% turnout - I think that's sufficient (we have governments from less), what % should we require? 75, 80, 85?

I researched the topic, had frequent discussions with parents, friends, etc about different views, pros and cons to staying or leaving etc. - I just did not feel that with the information available I could make a decision. On the one hand I genuinely felt like change could be a good thing, that if we were out of the EU we would be able to re-negotiate some better deals and policies. On the other hand, the status quo was clearly working, the economy was stable and everything was seemingly alright. We were paying some extortionate fees but, in return we were receiving a lot of aid (particularly in the agricultural sector - yes - i do read.)

Like I said, I felt both camps were being completely dishonest with what the result would actually mean and I really couldn't make up my mind. I am absolutely certain there must be a fair percentage of people in the same situation as me; who simply did not feel there was enough legitimate information out there to form an opinion.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 09:09
I researched the topic, had frequent discussions with parents, friends, etc about different views, pros and cons to staying or leaving etc. - I just did not feel that with the information available I could make a decision. On the one hand I genuinely felt like change could be a good thing, that if we were out of the EU we would be able to re-negotiate some better deals and policies. On the other hand, the status quo was clearly working, the economy was stable and everything was seemingly alright. We were paying some extortionate fees but, in return we were receiving a lot of aid (particularly in the agricultural sector - yes - i do read.)

Like I said, I felt both camps were being completely dishonest with what the result would actually mean and I really couldn't make up my mind. I am absolutely certain there must be a fair percentage of people in the same situation as me; who simply did not feel there was enough legitimate information out there to form an opinion.

So you did research and still didn't feel able to make a decision? What threshold were you requiring before you felt able to?
Were you not able to find information? Are you just indecisive?

Status Quo was not on the table, as leavers said (remainers derided) and now JcJ etc have proven through subsequent speeches.

Anyway, 72% seems like a fine turnout and many were able to make a decision in your absence, so it's moot now

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 09:11
but the question wasn’t “which side do you trust?” It was a yes or no to staying in the EU.

Surely though, that is absolutely what the real question was; Do you trust our politicians to renegotiate our deal whilst remaining in the EU (which clearly hadn't gotten anywhere in the run up to the vote) or do you trust Farage and his battle bus claiming to pump an extra 300 million a week into the NHS.

I just found neither side produced anything credible or even remotely factual about the whole thing.

In terms of real world impact, my step brother sells nutrition products, 70% of which he imports from America. He's had to massively increase his sales pipe just to support himself, whilst making the same amount of net profit. It's great he's doing so well in terms of sales, but woeful that he's selling so much more just to maintain the same amount of profit he was churning out a year or so ago.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 09:13
Surely though, that is absolutely what the real question was; Do you trust our politicians to renegotiate our deal whilst remaining in the EU (which clearly hadn't gotten anywhere in the run up to the vote) or do you trust Farage and his battle bus claiming to pump an extra 300 million a week into the NHS.

I just found neither side produced anything credible or even remotely factual about the whole thing.

In terms of real world impact, my step brother sells nutrition products, 70% of which he imports from America. He's had to massively increase his sales pipe just to support himself, whilst making the same amount of net profit. It's great he's doing so well in terms of sales, but woeful that he's selling so much more just to maintain the same amount of profit he was churning out a year or so ago.

350 million, not 300 million.

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 09:15
So you did research and still didn't feel able to make a decision? What threshold were you requiring before you felt able to?
Were you not able to find information? Are you just indecisive?

Status Quo was not on the table, as leavers said (remainers derided) and now JcJ etc have proven through subsequent speeches.

Anyway, 72% seems like a fine turnout and many were able to make a decision in your absence, so it's moot now

Honestly, I was hoping i'd wake up on the day and have a lightbulb moment - but I didn't. I read about our financial contributions, increase in migration (I actually think immigration is a good thing - we're doomed once all the European baristas get sent packing) and tried to get my head around how EU law is implemented although struggled a bit more with that.

The only real conclusion I could draw was that no-one really knew what would happen to the market, other than it would certainly cause turbulence for at least a short time, and that reorganising Customs was going to be a massive ballache.

72% is a fine turnout - my point is of the remaining 28% who didn't vote there must have been a good number who like me, were unsure, felt misinformed, etc.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 09:25
Honestly, I was hoping i'd wake up on the day and have a lightbulb moment - but I didn't.
Interesting process.


I read about our financial contributions, increase in migration (I actually think immigration is a good thing - we're doomed once all the European baristas get sent packing)
Me too, when you have control over it. Although there's only so many coffee shops that are required ;)


and tried to get my head around how EU law is implemented although struggled a bit more with that.
I think a lot of people struggled with that, and if it isn't simple - why is that, is that good or bad?


The only real conclusion I could draw was that no-one really knew what would happen to the market, other than it would certainly cause turbulence for at least a short time,
I agree, a market slip in the short-term at the least was predicted but it's too early to know long-term at the moment


and that reorganising Customs was going to be a massive ballache.
Just because it's difficult doesn't mean something isn't worth doing!


72% is a fine turnout - my point is of the remaining 28% who didn't vote there must have been a good number who like me, were unsure, felt misinformed, etc.
Good.
Well there's people that don't vote in a GE - should we keep re-voting until we get nearer 100% turnout of registered voters?
What about the millions that aren't registered?
Should we delay elections/referendums until 100% of 18-100yr olds are registered?

Lance
3rd October 2017, 09:25
At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to)

except the Tory manifesto is the reason we had the blasted ref in the first place

Bean
3rd October 2017, 09:29
Home | Plenary | European Parliament (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/home.html)

Seriously, if you're not listening to this - you should hear how many MEPs have stated something along the lines of;
"it's not too late to undo this", "stay with us" etc

Democracy...:tumble: ..they obviously don't get it


I've just heard one saying "independence referendums just cause problems"...... well yes, for the EU and Spain and the UK - but we need to reserve the right to hold them! :mad:
(Think it was Luděk NIEDERMAYER)

kaiser78
3rd October 2017, 09:29
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.


Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

Well you had the chance to vote like everyone else did and I presume you also have a brain to work through the logic of the arguments regardless of the factual information. As you didn't take the chance you cannot really carp on about now (IMHO).

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 09:34
Home | Plenary | European Parliament (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/home.html)

Seriously, if you're not listening to this - you should hear how many MEPs have stated something along the lines of;
"it's not too late to undo this", "stay with us" etc

Democracy...:tumble: ..they obviously don't get it


I've just heard one saying "independence referendums just cause problems"...... well yes, for the EU and Spain and the UK - but we need to reserve the right to hold them! :mad:
(Think it was Luděk NIEDERMAYER)

If you get democracy, then you would have no objection to a UK referendum on the settlement to leave the EU?

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 09:36
Well you had the chance to vote like everyone else did and I presume you also have a brain to work through the logic of the arguments regardless of the factual information. As you didn't take the chance you cannot really carp on about now (IMHO).

Talk us through the logic of that. Why can't people who abstain complain? It's just some bollocks piece of received wisdom that people trot out without thinking about it.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 09:47
If you get democracy, then you would have no objection to a UK referendum on the settlement to leave the EU?

Not a problem.

As long as 'remainers' realise that a 2nd referendum is more likely to end in a 'no-deal' scenario (by rejecting the settlement - we don't go back to the negotiating table)

So the questions are;
Are remainers prepared to risk this? &
Is no-deal better than a bad deal?

Bean
3rd October 2017, 09:48
Talk us through the logic of that. Why can't people who abstain complain? It's just some bollocks piece of received wisdom that people trot out without thinking about it.

You (matt) can complain, but that doesn't equate to demanding a re-vote just because you (he) & others didn't the first time round!

Bean
3rd October 2017, 09:55
Home | Plenary | European Parliament (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/home.html)

Seriously, if you're not listening to this - you should hear how many MEPs have stated something along the lines of;
"it's not too late to undo this", "stay with us" etc

Democracy...:tumble: ..they obviously don't get it


I've just heard one saying "independence referendums just cause problems"...... well yes, for the EU and Spain and the UK - but we need to reserve the right to hold them! :mad:
(Think it was Luděk NIEDERMAYER)

Just had one saying that referendums and nationalist politicians are "the enemies of the EU"

NlyUK - where's that Lenin image?

Crush the enemies of the EU :laugh

Mordac
3rd October 2017, 09:56
To be fair, Monarch was probably doomed anyway. But the weak pound will have hastened it.

Monarch was entirely self-inflicted, according to well informed accounts. They tried switching to the Easyjet/Ryanair model, and got royally screwed in the process. The blame lies with their management and owners (a private equity company) who got greedy. The idea they could double the size of their fleet in an already highly competitive market was, in hindsight, laughable. But not very funny for the poor sods who paid with their jobs or lost their holidays.

In short, nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit, so OP, you know where you can stick your second referendum...:moon:

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 09:57
Not a problem.

As long as 'remainers' realise that a 2nd referendum is more likely to end in a 'no-deal' scenario (by rejecting the settlement - we don't go back to the negotiating table)

So the questions are;
Are remainers prepared to risk this? &
Is no-deal better than a bad deal?

One of the options on the table should be to remain in the EU (if that is possible from an EU perspective), if that looks preferable to the electorate to leaving once the settlement in known. The main reason I voted Remain is that there was no definition of what the Leave settlement looked like.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 09:58
Monarch was entirely self-inflicted, according to well informed accounts. They tried switching to the Easyjet/Ryanair model, and got royally screwed in the process. The blame lies with their management and owners (a private equity company) who got greedy. The idea they could double the size of their fleet in an already highly competitive market was, in hindsight, laughable. But not very funny for the poor sods who paid with their jobs or lost their holidays.

In short, nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit, so OP, you know where you can stick your second referendum...:moon:

So was the collapse of Monarch nothing to do with an increased cost base, resulting from weak sterling?


What role did Brexit play in Monarch’s failure?
Monarch had been struggling for years. It was kept aloft in 2014 through pay cuts and redundancies when taken over by the investment firm Greybull Capital, but the EU referendum and associated fall in the pound was a hammer blow. The decline in sterling left Monarch paying £50m a year more for its fuel and aircraft – airlines’ biggest costs, paid for in the international market in dollars. Sterling has fallen 10% against dollar since the referendum and more than 12% against the euro. Monarch had also placed an order for Boeing 737 Max planes worth more than $3bn, again to be paid for in dollars.

More broadly, British holidaymakers were deterred from travelling by the weak pound and fares fell. Uncertainty around Brexit, including fundamental questions over whether British carriers will still have the right to operate freely in Europe, is said to have deterred potential buyers from rescuing Monarch.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/everything-you-need-to-know-monarch-airlines-collapse-explainer

If you dispute the Guardian analysis, please offer your own.

original PM
3rd October 2017, 10:00
Home | Plenary | European Parliament (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/home.html)

Seriously, if you're not listening to this - you should hear how many MEPs have stated something along the lines of;
"it's not too late to undo this", "stay with us" etc

Democracy...:tumble: ..they obviously don't get it


I've just heard one saying "independence referendums just cause problems"...... well yes, for the EU and Spain and the UK - but we need to reserve the right to hold them! :mad:
(Think it was Luděk NIEDERMAYER)

Indeed i am sure many MEP's will look to keep the EU gravy train running as long as possible.

Purely motivated by altruism and not lining their own pockets you understand.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 10:12
One of the options on the table should be to remain in the EU (if that is possible from an EU perspective),
I've made the IF the proportionate size for you. Surely the EU would have said already if that was an option....


if that looks preferable to the electorate to leaving once the settlement in known.
Same as above - but is no-deal better than a bad deal?


The main reason I voted Remain is that there was no definition of what the Leave settlement looked like.
So, if the UK had voted to remain;

What were our budget contributions going to be for the next 5-50 year? Increasing, Decreasing, the same?
Was there going to be an EU army?
Were we going to retain our veto?
Were we going to be forced into ever-closer union?
Were we going to have to bailout European banks?

Some of the questions above have now been answered by JcJ and the like and no doubt will be steam-rolled through the MEPs, by the largest parties, by way of QVM (Qualified Voting Majority) - but it would be good to ask for what you believed to be the case BEFORE you voted!?

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 10:16
In short, nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit, so OP, you know where you can stick your second referendum...:moon:

If you wish to disagree with well placed financial experts I am not one to judge. However to say Brexit had nothing whatsoever to do with Monarchs collapse is utter rubbish.

They had issues with their business model and yes, they had issues applying for ATOL in prior years. However, they had investors on board and were turning things around. The cost of getting a plane off the ground has gone up exponentially since Brexit, there is absolutely no way anyone can deny that - and for a company already in some financial hot water, that was enough to ensure the planes stopped getting off the ground altogether for Monarch.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:20
Just had one saying that referendums and nationalist politicians are "the enemies of the EU"

NlyUK - where's that Lenin image?

Crush the enemies of the EU :laugh

Ah yes. Theresa's New State..

http://images.archant.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.4986476.1492929796!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9ux_WqXYAA7IAz.jpg

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 10:20
What were our budget contributions going to be for the next 5-50 year? Increasing, Decreasing, the same? - Can only assume these would increase marginally.

Was there going to be an EU army? - this would be a good thing. Our armed forces are pathetically depleted due to enormous cuts

Were we going to retain our veto? - that's why we, the people, employ our politicians - to negotiate. Clearly they all need to be sacked.

Were we going to be forced into ever-closer union? - See my point on negotiation - circa £80-100,000k a year, 2 houses and some insane expenses should afford you people with a brain who can argue shouldn't it?

Were we going to have to bailout European banks? - London is the financial capital of the world, if you think we won't bail them out anyway you are being naive.

Mordac
3rd October 2017, 10:21
So was the collapse of Monarch nothing to do with an increased cost base, resulting from weak sterling?



http://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/everything-you-need-to-know-monarch-airlines-collapse-explainer

If you dispute the Guardian analysis, please offer your own.

If the Graun is correct, why haven't all UK airlines gone tits up? An increase of £50m due to the fall in sterling (which sounds reasonably accurate) should be easily affordable, and most airlines hedge USD rates anyway. It's the £3bn for the new planes which pushed them over the edge, they should have waited until they had a stable business - Easyjet & Ryanair have been doing this (mostly brilliantly) for years, and Monarch thought they could just wander into the market and carry on as normal? As I said, it was poor management and greedy owners. Monarch was in trouble 3 years ago, well before anyone was even dreaming about Brexit. The loss of some of its routes in Tunisia and Egypt won't have helped, and they should have been thinking about consolidating, not expanding.
The Graun analysis is lazy and predictable, blame Brexit for everything and don't bother looking anywhere else. :eyes

Bean
3rd October 2017, 10:22
Ah yes. Theresa's New State..

http://images.archant.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.4986476.1492929796!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9ux_WqXYAA7IAz.jpg

Yes but this time, it's the EU targeting referendums and nationalist politicians :laugh:laugh

Bean
3rd October 2017, 10:23
If the Graun is correct, why haven't all UK airlines gone tits up? An increase of £50m due to the fall in sterling (which sounds reasonably accurate) should be easily affordable, and most airlines hedge USD rates anyway. It's the £3bn for the new planes which pushed them over the edge, they should have waited until they had a stable business - Easyjet & Ryanair have been doing this (mostly brilliantly) for years, and Monarch thought they could just wander into the market and carry on as normal? As I said, it was poor management and greedy owners. Monarch was in trouble 3 years ago, well before anyone was even dreaming about Brexit. The loss of some of its routes in Tunisia and Egypt won't have helped, and they should have been thinking about consolidating, not expanding.
The Graun analysis is lazy and predictable, blame Brexit for everything and don't bother looking anywhere else. :eyes

4 reasons for Monarch failing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41466722)

includes £v$ (but every other airline hedges that don't they?)

3 other major reasons

Bean
3rd October 2017, 10:30
What were our budget contributions going to be for the next 5-50 year? Increasing, Decreasing, the same? - Can only assume these would increase marginally.
The point is nobody knew before the vote


Was there going to be an EU army? - this would be a good thing. Our armed forces are pathetically depleted due to enormous cuts
NATO is still strong


Were we going to retain our veto? - that's why we, the people, employ our politicians - to negotiate. Clearly they all need to be sacked.
Not sure you understand the veto fully


Were we going to be forced into ever-closer union? - See my point on negotiation - circa £80-100,000k a year, 2 houses and some insane expenses should afford you people with a brain who can argue shouldn't it?
Not sure you understand the numbers and QVM


Were we going to have to bailout European banks? - London is the financial capital of the world, if you think we won't bail them out anyway you are being naive.
Not quite the same as directly funding a bailout fund that the EU holds and governs


They were questions for anyone that did actually vote tbf

original PM
3rd October 2017, 10:31
What were our budget contributions going to be for the next 5-50 year? Increasing, Decreasing, the same? - Can only assume these would increase marginally.

Was there going to be an EU army? - this would be a good thing. Our armed forces are pathetically depleted due to enormous cuts

Were we going to retain our veto? - that's why we, the people, employ our politicians - to negotiate. Clearly they all need to be sacked.

Were we going to be forced into ever-closer union? - See my point on negotiation - circa £80-100,000k a year, 2 houses and some insane expenses should afford you people with a brain who can argue shouldn't it?

Were we going to have to bailout European banks? - London is the financial capital of the world, if you think we won't bail them out anyway you are being naive.

An EU army under whose command? and for what reason?

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:31
I've made the IF the proportionate size for you. Surely the EU would have said already if that was an option....


The EU appears to be saying it is an option. I won't pretend to understand the mechanism for withdrawing Article 50, though.



Same as above - but is no-deal better than a bad deal?



Put it to a vote - that's democracy. Maybe people would rather stay once they see what leaving looks like. Maybe they wouldn't.



What were our budget contributions going to be for the next 5-50 year? Increasing, Decreasing, the same?
Was there going to be an EU army?
Were we going to retain our veto?
Were we going to be forced into ever-closer union?
Were we going to have to bailout European banks?

Some of the questions above have now been answered by JcJ and the like and no doubt will be steam-rolled through the MEPs, by the largest parties, by way of QVM (Qualified Voting Majority) - but it would be good to ask for what you believed to be the case BEFORE you voted!?

These are fair questions, as it is impossible to see the future. Mostly, I think these are Kipper paranoid fantasies - would the UK ever e forced into the Eurozone or Schengen? No. Can the UK lose its veto without agreeing? No. If QMV takes the EU down a path which is intolerable to the UK, then the UK can leave. It seems odd to leave in case the EU takes this direction. Then all of this has to be balanced against the Leave vote, and at the time of the referendum nobody could say whether leave meant inside or outside the customs union, single market, ECHR, agreements of freedom of movement...

So there really can be no objection against a democratic vote on the agreed settlement vs remaining in the EU.

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 10:32
4 reasons for Monarch failing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41466722)

includes £v$ (but every other airline hedges that don't they?)

3 other major reasons

The move away from long haul was at the same time they had a massive cash injection from investors - I'm not sure they had much choice in the matter. As for terror attacks and competition there's a whole thread on PPRUNE about how Ryanair are a bunch of scumbags, with O'Leary being the worst of them, describing how he effectively bends every rule in the book. So yeah, when trying to legitimately conduct a business in a professional manner against a man who elects to conduct his business on the shady side of practice, you're going to struggle. I don't disagree that there weren't other issues, but I do feel that the £ vs $ was the main culprit here.

BlasterBates
3rd October 2017, 10:34
You're going to see this increasingly, as companies move their operations to the EU and go bust, reasons why it would have happened anyway.

Fact is the UK is now bottom of the league with respect to growth. Even Greece is growing faster than the UK and real Brexit hasn't yet begun.

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 10:35
An EU army under whose command? and for what reason?

That's a topic worthy of a debate all by itself.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 10:35
The EU appears to be saying it is an option. I won't pretend to understand the mechanism for withdrawing Article 50, though.
I doubt anyone does, since it's never been triggered, let alone withdrawn


Put it to a vote - that's democracy. Maybe people would rather stay once they see what leaving looks like. Maybe they wouldn't.
Maybe IF that's an option, which I fully doubt and in any case - the vote to leave would still take priority over a vote on the settlement (if that makes sense) - so we should still be 'leaving', just not with the deal on the table



These are fair questions, as it is impossible to see the future. Mostly, I think these are Kipper paranoid fantasies - would the UK ever e forced into the Eurozone or Schengen? No. Can the UK lose its veto without agreeing? No. If QMV takes the EU down a path which is intolerable to the UK, then the UK can leave. It seems odd to leave in case the EU takes this direction. Then all of this has to be balanced against the Leave vote, and at the time of the referendum nobody could say whether leave meant inside or outside the customs union, single market, ECHR, agreements of freedom of movement...
Some have been proven now though.


So there really can be no objection against a democratic vote on the agreed settlement vs remaining in the EU.
As I said before, it's more of a risk for people averse to 'hard brexit'/'no deal'

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:38
If the Graun is correct, why haven't all UK airlines gone tits up? An increase of £50m due to the fall in sterling (which sounds reasonably accurate) should be easily affordable, and most airlines hedge USD rates anyway. It's the £3bn for the new planes which pushed them over the edge, they should have waited until they had a stable business - Easyjet & Ryanair have been doing this (mostly brilliantly) for years, and Monarch thought they could just wander into the market and carry on as normal? As I said, it was poor management and greedy owners. Monarch was in trouble 3 years ago, well before anyone was even dreaming about Brexit. The loss of some of its routes in Tunisia and Egypt won't have helped, and they should have been thinking about consolidating, not expanding.
The Graun analysis is lazy and predictable, blame Brexit for everything and don't bother looking anywhere else. :eyes

Do you understand what multiple contributing factors are, or indeed anything about cause and effect?

Your analysis appears to state that if weak sterling was a contributing factor to the collapse of Monarch, then all other UK airlines would have collapsed. Even for a Brexit cretin like you, this is very weak stuff indeed. I don't shock easily anymore, but really!

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:39
As I said before, it's more of a risk for people averse to 'hard brexit'/'no deal'

It may be a risk but that's democracy. You don't always get the answer you want. But you would support a second referendum in the interests of democracy?

Mordac
3rd October 2017, 10:40
The move away from long haul was at the same time they had a massive cash injection from investors - I'm not sure they had much choice in the matter. As for terror attacks and competition there's a whole thread on PPRUNE about how Ryanair are a bunch of scumbags, with O'Leary being the worst of them, describing how he effectively bends every rule in the book. So yeah, when trying to legitimately conduct a business in a professional manner against a man who elects to conduct his business on the shady side of practice, you're going to struggle. I don't disagree that there weren't other issues, but I do feel that the £ vs $ was the main culprit here.

:facepalm:

Bean
3rd October 2017, 10:43
It may be a risk but that's democracy. You don't always get the answer you want. But you would support a second referendum in the interests of democracy?

I would support a free vote in the HoC and if no clear majority - a referendum, we have representative democracy after all :grin

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:46
I would support a free vote in the HoC and if no clear majority - a referendum, we have representative democracy after all :grin

The only reason for not having a second referendum is that you are afraid to let the people have a direct say.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:48
:facepalm:

Be fair. Where he says 'main culprit', at least he understands that an effect can have multiple contributory causes. You could learn a lot from him, if only you had the requisite cognitive capabilities.

scooterscot
3rd October 2017, 10:50
No one knew what they were voting for because no knows what leaving the EU would mean. How will a future trade agreement compare against what we currently, which our economy is so dependent on? No one knows! Least of all the government.

It beggars belief that bojo who destroyed families and opportunities for young people up and down the country continues to enjoy paid employment in government. Vile! vacuous creature.

Bee
3rd October 2017, 10:51
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.

Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

Another referendum for what? The citizens expressed the will to leave the EU, so let them leave.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:51
No one knew what they were voting for because no knows what leaving the EU would mean. How will a future trade agreement compare against what we currently, which our economy is so dependent on? No one knows! Least of all the government.

It beggars belief that bojo who destroyed families and opportunities for young people up and down the country continues to enjoy paid employment in government.



Veil [sic] vacuous creature.

FTFY. Love the new signature, by the way.

Mordac
3rd October 2017, 10:56
Do you understand what multiple contributing factors are, or indeed anything about cause and effect?

Your analysis appears to state that if weak sterling was a contributing factor to the collapse of Monarch, then all other UK airlines would have collapsed. Even for a Brexit cretin like you, this is very weak stuff indeed. I don't shock easily anymore, but really!

How is this "weak"? OP stated that Monarch failed due to Brexit, I think we're all fairly agreed it didn't. It failed due to management stupidity, compounded by many factors including a fall in the £. Two European airlines have gone bust in the last few months, I'm guessing that somewhere in your little mind Brexit is to blame for those as well...

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 10:56
Another referendum for what? The citizens expressed the will to leave the EU, so let them leave.

Did they express a will to leave the custom's union? Or the single market? Or the ECHR? Or the free movement of labour area? There was no mandate for any of that.

Mordac
3rd October 2017, 10:57
Did they express a will to leave the custom's union? Or the single market? Or the ECHR? Or the free movement of labour area? There was no mandate for any of that.

"Leaving the EU" means "leaving the EU". All of it. The end.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 10:57
The only reason for not having a second referendum is that you are afraid to let the people have a direct say.

Meh, makes almost zero difference to me tbh - should just be funny what 'facts' come out about the deal before any potential vote, given the level of 'facts' on both sides before the 1st ref :rollin:

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 11:00
So was the collapse of Monarch nothing to do with an increased cost base, resulting from weak sterling?



http://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/everything-you-need-to-know-monarch-airlines-collapse-explainer

If you dispute the Guardian analysis, please offer your own.


If the Graun is correct, why haven't all UK airlines gone tits up? An increase of £50m due to the fall in sterling (which sounds reasonably accurate) should be easily affordable, and most airlines hedge USD rates anyway. It's the £3bn for the new planes which pushed them over the edge, they should have waited until they had a stable business - Easyjet & Ryanair have been doing this (mostly brilliantly) for years, and Monarch thought they could just wander into the market and carry on as normal? As I said, it was poor management and greedy owners. Monarch was in trouble 3 years ago, well before anyone was even dreaming about Brexit. The loss of some of its routes in Tunisia and Egypt won't have helped, and they should have been thinking about consolidating, not expanding.
The Graun analysis is lazy and predictable, blame Brexit for everything and don't bother looking anywhere else. :eyes


Do you understand what multiple contributing factors are, or indeed anything about cause and effect?

Your analysis appears to state that if weak sterling was a contributing factor to the collapse of Monarch, then all other UK airlines would have collapsed. Even for a Brexit cretin like you, this is very weak stuff indeed. I don't shock easily anymore, but really!


How is this "weak"? OP stated that Monarch failed due to Brexit, I think we're all fairly agreed it didn't. It failed due to management stupidity, compounded by many factors including a fall in the £. Two European airlines have gone bust in the last few months, I'm guessing that somewhere in your little mind Brexit is to blame for those as well...

Christ on a bike, you can't even follow a conversational thread!

You stated:


If the Graun is correct, why haven't all UK airlines gone tits up

The Guardian stated weak sterling as one of multiple contributing factors. Why would weak sterling make all UK airlines go bust when they lack the other contributing factors?

motoukenin
3rd October 2017, 11:03
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.

Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

At least you have now started to realise the impact of the decision , the weak pound is just one of many factors that will make it a lot harder for people not only now but in the future. Working in the Fintech industry nobody sees the pound recovering to any great extent after 2019 and many see it on a parity with the dollar by late 2020.

Of course Brexit numpties will tell you all about armies , how corrupt EU is , laws that they can't name , not proping up EU banks (which in reality we don't) all as reasons why we should leave but the devaluing pound no matter what deal is negotiated is going to be what hits your average working person like a cricket bat simply because we import about 50 % of our food , just about all our oil and a high proportion of our clothes, things that they buy on a day to day basis and with a currency worth less and less and with most of them already struggling to make ends meet, they will be in deep dooh dooh by 2020.

Still if turkeys want to vote for Christmas let them , poverty is also about making the wrong decisions in life as much as it is about where you start from.

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 11:03
Meh, makes almost zero difference to me tbh - should just be funny what 'facts' come out about the deal before any potential vote, given the level of 'facts' on both sides before the 1st ref :rollin:

There’ll be £350 million for the NHS.

And the “small blip” and “difficulties” in the economy, particularly for small businesses who don’t have the money to change their systems to work with new cross border regulations, well if they close down, that’s not an important price to pay for the uncertainty of whatever we end up with. It’s exciting times.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 11:04
"Leaving the EU" means "leaving the EU". All of it. The end.

We know the ballot paper stated leaving the EU. It just didn't define whether the UK would stay or remain in the custom's union, the single market, the ECHR or the free movement of labour area. So the referendum delivers no mandate in these areas. Some other (non-EU) states participate in one or more of these.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 11:05
Meh, makes almost zero difference to me tbh - should just be funny what 'facts' come out about the deal before any potential vote, given the level of 'facts' on both sides before the 1st ref :rollin:

There will be a defined deal that can be put on the table for a referendum.

BrilloPad
3rd October 2017, 11:08
The UK is now full. Except Surrey. All the new arrivals must be housed there.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 11:10
The UK is now full. Except Surrey. All the new arrivals must be housed there.

A cold winter will kill off some Brexiteers, leaving more space for hard-working clever immigrants.

darmstadt
3rd October 2017, 11:12
"Leaving the EU" means "leaving the EU". All of it. The end.

So why hasn't the UK left the EU and why is continuing to not leave the EU? There was a vote held, then there was the repeal of Article 50 so the UK has had plenty of time since then to sort their shit out yet now want another few years. Perhaps those in power don't want to leave the EU. May 2019 is cut-off date and everyone knows that yet no-one seems to actually want to go on that date...

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 11:14
So why hasn't the UK left the EU and why is continuing to not leave the EU? There was a vote held, then there was the repeal of Article 50 so the UK has had plenty of time since then to sort their tulip out yet now want another few years. Perhaps those in power don't want to leave the EU. May 2019 is cut-off date and everyone knows that yet no-one seems to actually want to go on that date...

Actually mordac, continue the debate with darmy. The two of you are perfectly matched.

darmstadt
3rd October 2017, 11:14
Yes but this time, it's the EU targeting referendums and nationalist politicians :laugh:laugh

I wonder why:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1934
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1936
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1938
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1947171?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CleFmwyXIAADaUY.jpg:large

BrilloPad
3rd October 2017, 11:15
If we do have another vote, please can only those who bothered to vote first time be allowed to vote?

motoukenin
3rd October 2017, 11:16
So why hasn't the UK left the EU and why is continuing to not leave the EU? There was a vote held, then there was the repeal of Article 50 so the UK has had plenty of time since then to sort their tulip out yet now want another few years. Perhaps those in power don't want to leave the EU. May 2019 is cut-off date and everyone knows that yet no-one seems to actually want to go on that date...

Because everyone knows Brexit is a damage limitation argument and not a positive contribution to the economy , thats why Boris tells you how wonderful its going to be but can't explain why.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 11:25
There’ll be £350 million for the NHS.

And the “small blip” and “difficulties” in the economy, particularly for small businesses who don’t have the money to change their systems to work with new cross border regulations, well if they close down, that’s not an important price to pay for the uncertainty of whatever we end up with. It’s exciting times.

There could be*. It's an option.
*amount to be defined by a manifesto of a political party (of which vote leave doesn't stand in the GE)

What new regulations have been imposed/implemented?
Aren't we still part and parcel of the EU and small businesses have to do that anyway now?

I'd hope there would be some help from the government (and also isn't that what the transition deal is for?), but capitalism determines this, or are you trying to posit that EU regulations will be the cause of businesses closing? :laugh

Business opportunities increase when uncertainty arises don't they?

Bean
3rd October 2017, 11:27
I wonder why:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1934
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1936
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1938
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1947171?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CleFmwyXIAADaUY.jpg:large

That explains a German position on refs, but not the EU.....unless you're suggesting Germany is actually.... ;)

So you don't believe the public should ever be able to vote in a referendum on anything?

Or is there actually any nuance to your post that isn't obvious to the average reader?

OwlHoot
3rd October 2017, 11:28
I'll keep this concise; we need a second referendum. Monarch is the first major business casualty to come as a result of Brexit, due to an extremely weak pound.

July 19th 2015 the £ vs the Euro was 1.44
August 25th 2017, it's 1.077.
Prior to Brexit the £ was at its weakest in 2013, and even then it was at 1.13.

Why do we need another chance to vote? The turnout was 72%. I didn't vote because frankly, neither side used any FACTUAL information when presenting their argument. No-one actually knew what it meant so honestly, how on earth can you cast a vote? At least when you vote for a party they have a manifesto (not that it is ever stuck to) so you can get at least an idea of what the horizon may look like in a few years time. I am almost certain there were a large number of people who also didn't vote based on this total lack of information or frank dishonesty from both sides.

Oh - and then there was the fact people voted for David Cameron steering us out of the EU - someone who was actually relatively capable, but oh no wait - another lie - he resigned. Whatever happened to "I'll see this through no matter the result!" - the whole thing has been a sham

Brexit voters I really really hope your immigration policies (which won't happen by the way) and "sovereignty" were worth it.

God help us of Corbyn offers us a glimmer of hope to go back in to Europe - I really fear people who wouldn't usually vote for Labour may just do so to get back into the club.

As you didn't vote ... Shut up and stop bellyaching

And for those who did vote, but voted Remain ... Shut up and stop bellyaching

HTH but I'm sure it won't :eyes

OwlHoot
3rd October 2017, 11:30
A cold winter will kill off some Brexiteers ...

Not all White Anglo Saxon Protestants die off in the winter! :tongue

Bee
3rd October 2017, 11:31
We know the ballot paper stated leaving the EU. It just didn't define whether the UK would stay or remain in the custom's union, the single market, the ECHR or the free movement of labour area. So the referendum delivers no mandate in these areas. Some other (non-EU) states participate in one or more of these.

Leaving the EU means leaving the EU and it's not going to be the UK citizens based on whatever referendum that will be going to impose the rules to the EU. You can do it but it's only for the UK internal affairs.

motoukenin
3rd October 2017, 11:43
There could be*. It's an option.
*amount to be defined by a manifesto of a political party (of which vote leave doesn't stand in the GE)

What new regulations have been imposed/implemented?
Aren't we still part and parcel of the EU and small businesses have to do that anyway now?

I'd hope there would be some help from the government (and also isn't that what the transition deal is for?), but capitalism determines this, or are you trying to posit that EU regulations will be the cause of businesses closing? :laugh

Business opportunities increase when uncertainty arises don't they?


You keep talking about a transition deal like its a given, its up the the EU if we get that and with a 100% vote required it certainly isn't , especially as 2 countries have already said that whatever the deal is they are going to refuse it anyway.

darmstadt
3rd October 2017, 11:46
Actually mordac, continue the debate with darmy. The two of you are perfectly matched.

Whereas you're well matched with shaunbhoy...

mattfx
3rd October 2017, 11:48
As you didn't vote ... Shut up and stop bellyaching

And for those who did vote, but voted Remain ... Shut up and stop bellyaching

HTH but I'm sure it won't :eyes

I think there's a difference between being too lazy to vote and not voting because one feels there was a lack of credible information. Had the information about the customs union been available at the time of voting I would have absolutely voted. Speculation at the time was that we would be able to negotiate to maintain our relationship with the customs union whilst being outside, because there are already state that do this.

I started this thread simply to suggest that there must have been others in my predicament, not knowing which way to go or feeling like the amount of scare tactics being employed by either side discredited both of them.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 11:51
You keep talking about a transition deal like its a given, its up the the EU if we get that and with a 100% vote required it certainly isn't , especially as 2 countries have already said that whatever the deal is they are going to refuse it anyway.

Businesses want it.
Almost all UK politicians want it.
The NI border issue is on-hold until after any T-deal, so basically everyone should want it.

No transition deal suits a few people, so either way the EU & UK are going to make some happy and some angry. Can't please everyone.

I expect one to be agreed between the negotiators, and if it is voted down by MEPs that should be interesting. The council however should be QM voting, so 2 against shouldn't in theory be a problem, but again - will they really want to be the only one to put their heads above the parapet? Still, we should be making preparations for no-deal, including to help those most affected by the 'cliff-edge'.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:02
See how much your snout could get in the EU trough (https://epso.europa.eu/how-to-apply_en)

"Basic monthly permanent official salaries range from around €2,300 per month for a newly recruited Assistant-Secretary (AST/SC 1) official to around €16,000 per month for a top level Administrator (AD 16 official) with more than 4 years of seniority. Each grade is broken up into five seniority steps with corresponding salary increases. Basic salaries are adjusted annually in line with inflation and purchasing power in the EU countries.

In addition, if you have left your home country to come and work for an EU institution, you are entitled to an expatriation allowance equivalent to 16% of your basic salary.

Some family-related allowances are available to permanent officials according to their family situation. These include a household allowance, a dependant child allowance, an educational allowance and a pre-school allowance.

As a European civil servant, your salary is not subject to national income tax. Instead, salaries are directly subject to a Community tax which is paid directly back into the EU's budget. This tax is levied progressively at a rate of between 8% and 45% of the taxable portion of your salary. An additional 'solidarity levy' is in place from 2014 to 2023."

:eek::eek:

I wonder if EU ushers are paid, and if so, how much?

motoukenin
3rd October 2017, 12:09
Businesses want it.
Almost all UK politicians want it.
The NI border issue is on-hold until after any T-deal, so basically everyone should want it.

No transition deal suits a few people, so either way the EU & UK are going to make some happy and some angry. Can't please everyone.

I expect one to be agreed between the negotiators, and if it is voted down by MEPs that should be interesting. The council however should be QM voting, so 2 against shouldn't in theory be a problem, but again - will they really want to be the only one to put their heads above the parapet? Still, we should be making preparations for no-deal, including to help those most affected by the 'cliff-edge'.

Think your making the mistake of thinking the EU give a toss about British business or politicians, from living here in Germany the consensus of opinion is that they don't , they are expecting a cliff edge , nobody in the EU wants a transition deal as most see it as the EU giving a new deal to the UK by the back door.

EU has a duty to look after the 27 nations in the EU not the UK , and German papers think that WTO although not great will be workable with a trade deal in 5 - 7 years time.

Just giving it to you from the EU side as I think the Brits are pretty myopic sometimes.

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 12:11
Leaving the EU means leaving the EU and it's not going to be the UK citizens based on whatever referendum that will be going to impose the rules to the EU. You can do it but it's only for the UK internal affairs.

Classic. :rollin:

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 12:12
See how much your snout could get in the EU trough (https://epso.europa.eu/how-to-apply_en)

"Basic monthly permanent official salaries range from around €2,300 per month for a newly recruited Assistant-Secretary (AST/SC 1) official to around €16,000 per month for a top level Administrator (AD 16 official) with more than 4 years of seniority. Each grade is broken up into five seniority steps with corresponding salary increases. Basic salaries are adjusted annually in line with inflation and purchasing power in the EU countries.

In addition, if you have left your home country to come and work for an EU institution, you are entitled to an expatriation allowance equivalent to 16% of your basic salary.

Some family-related allowances are available to permanent officials according to their family situation. These include a household allowance, a dependant child allowance, an educational allowance and a pre-school allowance.

As a European civil servant, your salary is not subject to national income tax. Instead, salaries are directly subject to a Community tax which is paid directly back into the EU's budget. This tax is levied progressively at a rate of between 8% and 45% of the taxable portion of your salary. An additional 'solidarity levy' is in place from 2014 to 2023."

:eek::eek:

I wonder if EU ushers are paid, and if so, how much?

I broadly agree with this critique. Just not enough to trash the UK economy over it.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:13
Think your making the mistake of thinking the EU give a toss about British business or politicians, from living here in Germany the consensus of opinion is that they don't , they are expecting a cliff edge , nobody in the EU wants a transition deal as most see it as the EU giving a new deal to the UK by the back door.

EU has a duty to look after the 27 nations in the EU not the UK , and German papers think that WTO although not great will be workable with a trade deal in 5 - 7 years time.

Just giving it to you from the EU side as I think the Brits are pretty myopic sometimes.

All of that is fine (and actually somewhat expected if you believe the punishment theory), as long as (as I previously stated);

"Still, we* should be making preparations for no-deal, including to help those most affected** by the 'cliff-edge'."

*UK government
**Businesses

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:14
I broadly agree with this critique. Just not enough to trash the UK economy over it.

and that's a perfectly reasonable position to hold tbh.

It could, however, be 1 of many reasons that contribute to an overall position of 'out' for others...

northernladyuk
3rd October 2017, 12:21
and that's a perfectly reasonable position to hold tbh.

It could, however, be 1 of many reasons that contribute to an overall position of 'out' for others...

There are plenty of reasons to leave the EU. I would share Tony Benn's views about the lack of accountability of the Commission (I would however disagree with Benn's rather romanticised view of the accountability of the Westminster political class). But it is a nuanced argument which needs people to balance up the two options. And we've never seen what Leave looks like. I do wonder what Benn would say about the Henry VIII powers...

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 12:22
What new regulations have been imposed/implemented?
Aren't we still part and parcel of the EU and small businesses have to do that anyway now?

I'd hope there would be some help from the government (and also isn't that what the transition deal is for?), but capitalism determines this, or are you trying to posit that EU regulations will be the cause of businesses closing? :laugh

Business opportunities increase when uncertainty arises don't they?

New regulations? Have you ever tried to carry out international business and having the correct labelling, paperwork, taxes, customers documentation etc?


Businesses want it.

Just cause you repeat something doesn’t make it true.
UK businesses that do not trade with Europe (buying or selling) might want it, if they face competition from Europe.
Businesses that trade with Europe and the UK (buying or selling) will be out of pocket.

As I mentioned last week, simple things like standards. Currently product that needs to be stamped to a standard only requires one stamp to be used throughout Europe (inc UK). If the UK cannot reach an agreement to stay as part of CEN, then every single product that is sold in the UK will require a BSI Kitemark and everything sold in Europe will still require CEN mark.
If CEN then update/replace their standard, the UK will only know about it when it is released, rather than being aware of the changes (and influence those changes) as they are discussed, then BSI will need to start their own discussions to decide if UK standards need to be updated/replaced. All the while this happens, the manufacturers are left in limbo whether they need to make changes, and what changes. Re-tool for the new EN at a cost, then re-tool a few weeks/months later for the new BS. Or don’t re-tool for the new EN, stop selling to Europe until BSI make their decision and lose that trade.

That’s just a simple example.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:38
New regulations? Have you ever tried to carry out international business and having the correct labelling, paperwork, taxes, customers documentation etc?
So, you mean the current process, frameworks and regulatory hurdles they currently face? Seriously, I cannot highlight this point enough to you

Producers/manufacturers etc the world over already have to do all this to trade with the EU (and they do), and magically the world keeps turning without a large % of businesses going bust when the EU makes changes - or have I got that completely wrong and the EU causes business bankruptcy regularly through new regulations etc? :laugh cmon.....






Just cause you repeat something doesn’t make it true.
UK businesses that do not trade with Europe (buying or selling) might want it, if they face competition from Europe.
Businesses that trade with Europe and the UK (buying or selling) will be out of pocket.

As I mentioned last week, simple things like standards. Currently product that needs to be stamped to a standard only requires one stamp to be used throughout Europe (inc UK). If the UK cannot reach an agreement to stay as part of CEN, then every single product that is sold in the UK will require a BSI Kitemark and everything sold in Europe will still require CEN mark.
If CEN then update/replace their standard, the UK will only know about it when it is released, rather than being aware of the changes (and influence those changes) as they are discussed, then BSI will need to start their own discussions to decide if UK standards need to be updated/replaced. All the while this happens, the manufacturers are left in limbo whether they need to make changes, and what changes. Re-tool for the new EN at a cost, then re-tool a few weeks/months later for the new BS. Or don’t re-tool for the new EN, stop selling to Europe until BSI make their decision and lose that trade.

That’s just a simple example.

Again, like every other producer outside the EU currently has to adapt, you mean? See above point again.

Are you sure you understand the voluntary nature of starting up a business and being subject to most rules/regulation in pursuit of profit?

HTH BIDI

BlasterBates
3rd October 2017, 12:42
There are plenty of reasons to leave the EU. I would share Tony Benn's views about the lack of accountability of the Commission.


since Tony Benn's views were expressed the accountability of the EU commission has changed significantly, therefore they're not applicable to today's EU

Interestingly steps to significantly increase the accountability of the EU commission (they can now be sacked at any time by MEPs) were opposed fiercely by Eurosceptics who constantly complained about the accountability of the EU commission.

This is why I'm fully behind Brexit :D because the British don't deserve to be in the EU. It wouldn't matter how much the EU were to reform or what sort of reforms the EU would introduce the Brits will always slag it off, just knee jerk reactions.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:42
There are plenty of reasons to leave the EU. I would share Tony Benn's views about the lack of accountability of the Commission (I would however disagree with Benn's rather romanticised view of the accountability of the Westminster political class). But it is a nuanced argument which needs people to balance up the two options. And we've never seen what Leave looks like. I do wonder what Benn would say about the Henry VIII powers...

uncharted waters and all that, refer to Neanderthal berry eaters, flat Earth, Sun-centric universe etc.

If nobody ever tries something different, nobody ever finds out.


As for Tony Benn, indeed - safe seats make for an accountability deficit. FPTP another factor.

I'd imagine he'd be pragmatic to a point (e.g. we can't debate 40000 instruments in such a short timescale) but would expect he'd want some kind of safeguard process added into it.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:47
since Tony Benn's views were expressed the accountability of the EU commission has changed significantly, therefore they're not applicable to today's EU

Interestingly steps to significantly increase the accountability of the EU commission (they can now be sacked at any time by MEPs) were opposed fiercely by Eurosceptics who constantly complained about the accountability of the EU commission.

This is why I'm fully behind Brexit :D because the British don't deserve to be in the EU. It wouldn't matter how much the EU were to reform or what sort of reforms the EU would introduce the Brits will always slag it off, just knee jerk reactions.

Except everyone on the EU side said the 4 freedoms were indivisible, and 1 of those was a major factor/demand for reform - so you're just not simply correct.

Had that 1 factor been reformed, we could well have seen a different result,

Closing down the monthly circus move from Strasbourg to Brussel, saving millions would have been beneficial,

Capping their own pay to the same limits as the austerity imposed limits on other nations, would probably have helped too


Those are just a few easy suggestions of helpful reform that would not have been sneered at by the UK, and the EU response was :tumble: take what we give you :spank:

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 12:51
So, you mean the current process, frameworks and regulatory hurdles they currently face? Seriously, I cannot highlight this point enough to you

Producers/manufacturers etc the world over already have to do all this to trade with the EU (and they do), and magically the world keeps turning without a large % of businesses going bust when the EU makes changes - or have I got that completely wrong and the EU causes business bankruptcy regularly through new regulations etc? :laugh cmon.....

Again, like every other producer outside the EU currently has to adapt, you mean? See above point again.

Are you sure you understand the voluntary nature of starting up a business and being subject to most rules/regulation in pursuit of profit?

HTH BIDI

Have you ever actually worked with a business that trades?
Have you ever set up their systems when they start trading across borders?

Have you actually read what I wrote, or just what you wanted to read?

We’re not talking just about making changes when the CEN makes a change. We are talking about doubling the paperwork/stamping for every product that needs to be sold to the EU and the UK.
That’s doubling.
Not as a one off, but going forward as well.
If the product is stamped with the EN mark, then there will have to be 2 different production runs.

Basic manufacturing.

BrilloPad
3rd October 2017, 12:53
Have you ever actually worked with a business that trades?
Have you ever set up their systems when they start trading across borders?

Have you actually read what I wrote, or just what you wanted to read?

We’re not talking just about making changes when the CEN makes a change. We are talking about doubling the paperwork/stamping for every product that needs to be sold to the EU and the UK.
That’s doubling.
Not as a one off, but going forward as well.
If the product is stamped with the EN mark, then there will have to be 2 different production runs.

Basic manufacturing.

Only goods manufactured in the UK will be able to be sold in the UK.

Hard brexit.

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 12:57
Hint: Have you got your mobile phone charger with you, or a laptop charger?
Does it have the following stamped on it:
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sites/growth/files/ce.gif

Does it have this stamped on it:
https://protein-cms-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/grafik/14477/featured_image/e6e818e8-c3b6-4b3b-918d-ebc87559341e.jpg

One says it conformed to European tests. The other says it conforms to UK tests.
Currently you only need the CE mark.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:57
Have you ever actually worked with a business that trades?
Have you ever set up their systems when they start trading across borders?

Have you actually read what I wrote, or just what you wanted to read?

We’re not talking just about making changes when the CEN makes a change. We are talking about doubling the paperwork/stamping for every product that needs to be sold to the EU and the UK.
That’s doubling.
Not as a one off, but going forward as well.
If the product is stamped with the EN mark, then there will have to be 2 different production runs.

Basic manufacturing.

Are you assuming that people are only trading with the EU, otherwise this is currently the case for them and any other market other than the EU

So are the UK unique in this, or do other producers currently have to have some kind of local national safety stamp AND the EU stamp? (I'm willing to bet the UK wouldn't be unique)

Do understand the meaning of capitalism and the voluntary nature of running a business?

Since the negotiations are ongoing, are we all assuming too much? (Isn't it plausible, that since we're likely to assimilate most of the EU instruments - we can continue to share CEN, if agreed etc etc?)

HTH BIDI

Bean
3rd October 2017, 12:59
Hint: Have you got your mobile phone charger with you, or a laptop charger?
Does it have the following stamped on it:


Does it have this stamped on it:


One says it conformed to European tests. The other says it conforms to UK tests.
Currently you only need the CE mark.

What about selling in China?

Do you get my point yet?

BlasterBates
3rd October 2017, 13:03
Except everyone on the EU side said the 4 freedoms were indivisible.



Absolutely, that is what the majority of the EU wants, if it wasn't then European Parliament has it within it's power to propose such reforms.

Eurosceptics don't believe in European democracy. They only believe in shoving their minority opinions down everyone else's throats.

Well now the UK will have EU laws shoved down it's throat after they've grovelled for their deal.

:D

Bee
3rd October 2017, 13:05
Are you assuming that people are only trading with the EU, otherwise this is currently the case for them and any other market other than the EU

So are the UK unique in this, or do other producers currently have to have some kind of local national safety stamp AND the EU stamp? (I'm willing to bet the UK wouldn't be unique)

Do understand the meaning of capitalism and the voluntary nature of running a business?

Since the negotiations are ongoing, are we all assuming too much? (Isn't it plausible, that since we're likely to assimilate most of the EU instruments - we can continue to share CEN, if agreed etc etc?)

HTH BIDI

The EU countries don't need to trade only within the EU you are free to trade with the countries you want.

BlasterBates
3rd October 2017, 13:07
The EU countries don't need to trade only within the EU you are free to trade with the countries you want.

Indeed the Eurosceptics keep telling us that WTO are perfectly adequate.

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 13:08
So are the UK unique in this, or do other producers currently have to have some kind of local national safety stamp AND the EU stamp? (I'm willing to bet the UK wouldn't be unique)


Most products sold in/to the EU will only have a CE mark on them. The exceptions will be where a specific country has tighter standards than the European ones, in which case both marks may appear, or where Europe does not have a standard - in which case the product is only approved for sale in one country.

Each large country has its own standards organisation, for example the Deutsches Institut für Normung is the German equivalent of the British Standards Institute.
They have a website that explains it better than I could:
https://www.din.de/en/about-standards/din-standards

If you know anyone who is a competent test analyst they may be able to advise you on the importance of having standards.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:13
Absolutely, that is what the majority of the EU wants, if it wasn't then European Parliament has it within it's power to propose such reforms.

Eurosceptics don't believe in European democracy. They only believe in shoving their minority opinions down everyone else's throats.

Well now the UK will have EU laws shoved down it's throat after they've grovelled for their deal.

:D

I see and hear the EU demanding/grovelling for some euros of divorce payment.

I see and hear MB & DD both saying both sides want an agreement.

It's reasonable to assume that if you want to sell a product in a foreign country, that you abide by market regulations - but that won't include a whole host of areas, in which the EU has deposited itself over successive years.

Still, the EU is now free to get closer in union and all the benefits, risk and consequences of doing so.
Good luck to them.

Mordac
3rd October 2017, 13:16
Hint: Have you got your mobile phone charger with you, or a laptop charger?
Does it have the following stamped on it:
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sites/growth/files/ce.gif

Does it have this stamped on it:
https://protein-cms-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/grafik/14477/featured_image/e6e818e8-c3b6-4b3b-918d-ebc87559341e.jpg

One says it conformed to European tests. The other says it conforms to UK tests.
Currently you only need the CE mark.

I thought CE stood for "made in China, likely to Explode"...

:igmc:

motoukenin
3rd October 2017, 13:17
Most products sold in/to the EU will only have a CE mark on them. The exceptions will be where a specific country has tighter standards than the European ones, in which case both marks may appear, or where Europe does not have a standard - in which case the product is only approved for sale in one country.

Each large country has its own standards organisation, for example the Deutsches Institut für Normung is the German equivalent of the British Standards Institute.
They have a website that explains it better than I could:
https://www.din.de/en/about-standards/din-standards

If you know anyone who is a competent test analyst they may be able to advise you on the importance of having standards.

Think your wasting your time with this guy/girl he/she's a theorist and has no idea of what will happen in practice , like to see him put in a room with a family of JAMS just after we go WTO rules with the whole world and prices of petrol , food and clothes soar and then let him explain about standards when they are having to go to food banks to feed their kids.

BlasterBates
3rd October 2017, 13:18
I see and hear the EU demanding/grovelling for some euros of divorce payment.

I see and hear MB & DD both saying both sides want an agreement.

It's reasonable to assume that if you want to sell a product in a foreign country, that you abide by market regulations - but that won't include a whole host of areas, in which the EU has deposited itself over successive years.

Still, the EU is now free to get closer in union and all the benefits, risk and consequences of doing so.
Good luck to them.

May was clearly grovelling in Florence for trade talks to begin in October. After the last meeting Barnier and Juncker have stated that trade talks will not take place.

:D

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 13:18
What about selling in China?

Do you get my point yet?

Selling to any country you need to meet that country’s standards.

Selling to China, you need to meet SAC standards.
Buying from China, they must meet our standards.

But you don’t get it, do you?
If a UK business wants to sell something in the UK post Brexit it will require a BS Kitemark on it.
Currently very few products have that. Most are CE stamped.

If a foreign business wants to sell something to the UK post Brexit, it will require a BS Kitemark on it.
Currently very few products have that. Most are CE stamped.

So, UK businesses who want to sell in the UK are going to have to make changes to their manufacturing.
And foreign businesses who want to sell in the UK are going to have to do the same.

It’s not about selling to China, it’s about selling in the UK.

The companies (no matter where they are located) have the option of re-tooling to sell to the UK, at an increased cost, or not bothering with the extra cost and keeping their trade elsewhere. It’s simple business.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:23
Most products sold in/to the EU will only have a CE mark on them. The exceptions will be where a specific country has tighter standards than the European ones, in which case both marks may appear, or where Europe does not have a standard - in which case the product is only approved for sale in one country.

Each large country has its own standards organisation, for example the Deutsches Institut für Normung is the German equivalent of the British Standards Institute.
They have a website that explains it better than I could:
https://www.din.de/en/about-standards/din-standards

If you know anyone who is a competent test analyst they may be able to advise you on the importance of having standards.

So, just to summarise/paraphrase;

Exporters all over the world will more than likely currently stamp their products with CE (or multiple), due to it generally being the highest standard available.
Those foreign exporters are not privy to any future changes being made (and the UK could soon be in the same position) to EU regulations.
They are not going out of business in any significant numbers, due to any EU changes, or the fact they stamp a product multiple times.
UK exporters currently stamp products with CE, where applicable.
UK exporters will have to stamp future products with CE, where applicable in addition to any others.
Running a business is voluntary
Costs to a business are offset against profits
Businesses must adapt to new regulations to survive

I'll highlight the relevant parts, if required again - but only once more, after that I will no longer believe that you are capable of grasping the point.

Ask if you need any more help.

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 13:26
Here’s a few you may have heard of...
ISO 100 Film Speed
DIN cables (5 pin, 8 pin, etc)
Ski boot DIN
Or maybe ANSI/TIA-568.D Category 6.

Bee
3rd October 2017, 13:27
So are the UK unique in this, or do other producers currently have to have some kind of local national safety stamp AND the EU stamp? (I'm willing to bet the UK wouldn't be unique)



No, all the countries have their own quality standards, after the EU was created, the quality standards were harmonized in one to indicating the minimum quality standards. If you see a product with the CE means that the product was produced in EU and can circulate in the EU.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:27
Selling to any country you need to meet that country’s standards.

Selling to China, you need to meet SAC standards.
Buying from China, they must meet our standards.

But you don’t get it, do you?
If a UK business wants to sell something in the UK post Brexit it will require a BS Kitemark on it.
Currently very few products have that. Most are CE stamped.

If a foreign business wants to sell something to the UK post Brexit, it will require a BS Kitemark on it.
Currently very few products have that. Most are CE stamped.

So, UK businesses who want to sell in the UK are going to have to make changes to their manufacturing.
And foreign businesses who want to sell in the UK are going to have to do the same.

It’s not about selling to China, it’s about selling in the UK.

The companies (no matter where they are located) have the option of re-tooling to sell to the UK, at an increased cost, or not bothering with the extra cost and keeping their trade elsewhere. It’s simple business.

So tell me, given the state of our buyers market for a whole range of goods - do exporters not want our money?

If there's profit in it, businesses are border-blind.

Costs can be offset until their process are ready, and I'd expect some help from government to be given to halt any potential landslide of business closures.

I previously wrote about us ALL assuming too much, for instance, wasn't there a proposal that we may stay inside the CEN and therefore most, if not all of your point is moot?

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 13:30
So, just to summarise/paraphrase;

Exporters all over the world will more than likely currently stamp their products with CE (or multiple), due to it generally being the highest standard available.
Those foreign exporters are not privy to any future changes being made (and the UK could soon be in the same position) to EU regulations.
They are not going out of business in any significant numbers, due to any EU changes, or the fact they stamp a product multiple times.
UK exporters currently stamp products with CE, where applicable.
UK exporters will have to stamp future products with CE, where applicable in addition to any others.
Running a business is voluntary
Costs to a business are offset against profits
Businesses must adapt to new regulations to survive

I'll highlight the relevant parts, if required again - but only once more, after that I will no longer believe that you are capable of grasping the point.

Ask if you need any more help.

You’re clueless.
The biggest issue is not about selling abroad, it’s about selling in the UK or selling to the UK.

Running a business is voluntary.
If it’s not cost effective to trade with or within the UK, then those businesses may voluntarily choose not to trade with or within the UK.

Ask if you need help with basic English.

Bee
3rd October 2017, 13:31
So, just to summarise/paraphrase;

Exporters all over the world will more than likely currently stamp their products with CE (or multiple), due to it generally being the highest standard available.
Those foreign exporters are not privy to any future changes being made (and the UK could soon be in the same position) to EU regulations.
They are not going out of business in any significant numbers, due to any EU changes, or the fact they stamp a product multiple times.
UK exporters currently stamp products with CE, where applicable.
UK exporters will have to stamp future products with CE, where applicable in addition to any others.
Running a business is voluntary
Costs to a business are offset against profits
Businesses must adapt to new regulations to survive

I'll highlight the relevant parts, if required again - but only once more, after that I will no longer believe that you are capable of grasping the point.

Ask if you need any more help.

What do you mean, marke with the CE after leaving the EU?

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:31
Think your wasting your time with this guy/girl he/she's a theorist and has no idea of what will happen in practice , like to see him put in a room with a family of JAMS just after we go WTO rules with the whole world and prices of petrol , food and clothes soar and then let him explain about standards when they are having to go to food banks to feed their kids.

Negotiations haven't yet concluded.
(we could stay in CEN etc, which makes some points moot)

Agreements aren't yet finalised.
(So nobody known if there will be tariffs yet, and what the prices of anything will be yet)

Governments have a duty to improve living standards, oh and food bank use is up whilst we're IN the EU......so shall we put you in a room to explain how that's happening to the JAMS right now? :tumble: :freaky:

You call me a theorist, but can I borrow whichever crystal ball you and WTFH are sharing for the lotto numbers?

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:35
What do you mean, marke with the CE after leaving the EU?

e.g. something similar to Norway could potentially be agreed;

"CEN rules state that you can only join CEN if you are a member of the EU or about to become a member. In the case of non-EU countries including Norway and Switzerland, their membership in the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) qualifies them as well."

HTH BIDI

BlasterBates
3rd October 2017, 13:37
The companies (no matter where they are located) have the option of re-tooling to sell to the UK, at an increased cost, or not bothering with the extra cost and keeping their trade elsewhere. It’s simple business.

Indeed on a TV report several months ago I heard German business owners saying they'd just give up trading with the UK altogether after Brexit because of the hassle.

motoukenin
3rd October 2017, 13:38
Negotiations haven't yet concluded.
(we could stay in CEN etc, which makes some points moot)

Agreements aren't yet finalised.
(So nobody known if there will be tariffs yet, and what the prices of anything will be yet)

Governments have a duty to improve living standards, oh and food bank use is up whilst we're IN the EU......so shall we put you in a room to explain how that's happening to the JAMS right now? :tumble: :freaky:

You call me a theorist, but can I borrow whichever crystal ball you and WTFH are sharing for the lotto numbers?

Food banks are on the increase because the pound has slumped and that makes buying food more expensive, from any country regardless of EU , its happening now and when we actually leave it will not get any better.

Tesco are not going to pay the price increases from importers for 63 million of us because our currency is worth less than it was in 2015.

BlasterBates
3rd October 2017, 13:40
e.g. something similar to Norway could potentially be agreed;

"CEN rules state that you can only join CEN if you are a member of the EU or about to become a member. In the case of non-EU countries including Norway and Switzerland, their membership in the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) qualifies them as well."

HTH BIDI

Norway is in the single market. I doubt that this would be on offer unless the UK eats EU laws for breakfast which is highly unlikely to be acceptable. Brits need to accept they'll be a bit more "Soviet Union" with less variety in the shops and generally poorer, Lets be honest most Eurosceptics would rather lead a sh*t life.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:40
You’re clueless.
Thanks, but since you've finally agreed (below) that running a business is voluntary (despite you originally missing the point of that statement) - I must have some knowledge, thereby disproving your assertion above. HTH :laugh:laugh


The biggest issue is not about selling abroad, it’s about selling in the UK or selling to the UK.
That's easy, accept the CE mark - since it's more stringent - you said earlier. HTH


Running a business is voluntary.
Finally and so.....


If it’s not cost effective to trade with or within the UK, then those businesses may voluntarily choose not to trade with or within the UK.
Yes correct, welcome to capitalism


Ask if you need help with basic English.
How would I be able to, if I needed to? :laugh

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:46
Food banks are on the increase because the pound has slumped and that makes buying food more expensive, from any country regardless of EU , its happening now and when we actually leave it will not get any better.

Tesco are not going to pay the price increases from importers for 63 million of us because our currency is worth less than it was in 2015.

So are you asserting that food bank use has only started since the slump in the pound?,
or are you just asserting there's been an increase due to the slump in the pound?
or neither?


The reason I ask, is that there have been some recent changes to benefits and the taxation system, which most people would expect to have some affect and yet are nothing to do with brexit...


They are welcome to set their prices accordingly and people will buy accordingly to their means, and other providers will be available and competing for business.

Bee
3rd October 2017, 13:50
e.g. something similar to Norway could potentially be agreed;

"CEN rules state that you can only join CEN if you are a member of the EU or about to become a member. In the case of non-EU countries including Norway and Switzerland, their membership in the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) qualifies them as well."

HTH BIDI

Other countries can use the make to export to EU but will be subject to a supervision. Any country in the EU could and should supervise at the entrance the products imported from the EU.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:51
Norway is in the single market. I doubt that this would be on offer unless the UK eats EU laws for breakfast which is highly unlikely to be acceptable. Brits need to accept they'll be a bit more "Soviet Union" with less variety in the shops and generally poorer, Lets be honest most Eurosceptics would rather lead a sh*t life.

Negotiations are ongoing
Agreements are tbc

Let's be honest and simply say nobody knows the future, including you

Bean
3rd October 2017, 13:54
Other countries can use the make to export to EU but will be subject to a supervision. Any country in the EU could and should supervise at the entrance the products imported from the EU.

Yes, but the point was to be able to reduce the multiple standards stamping red tape.....if you're going to play, please keep up.

Bee
3rd October 2017, 13:58
Yes, but the point was to be able to reduce the multiple standards stamping red tape.....if you're going to play, please keep up.

What are you talking about?

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 14:09
That's easy, accept the CE mark - since it's more stringent - you said earlier. HTH


Or maybe I said the exact opposite.


Most products sold in/to the EU will only have a CE mark on them. The exceptions will be where a specific country has tighter standards than the European ones, in which case both marks may appear, or where Europe does not have a standard - in which case the product is only approved for sale in one country.


The current hierarchy for Europe is:
ISO/IEC - International
CEN - European
BSI/DIN/etc - Country specific.

There are not standards at ISO level for everything.
In most cases the country-specific standard gets discussed among the CEN group and is then adopted as CEN standards.
So you will see, for example, BS EN 12195, but there isn’t an equivalent of BS1192. Then there’s ISO 13567, which is similar to BS1192, but if there is a difference between the two standards, then in the UK BS1192 overrides ISO 13567.

Bean
3rd October 2017, 14:10
What are you talking about?

Exactly. My statement that you originally quoted was directed at somebody else, as part of an ongoing conversation which, you haven't familiarised yourself with. :tumble:

Bean
3rd October 2017, 14:15
Or maybe I said the exact opposite.

Most products sold in/to the EU will only have a CE mark on them. The exceptions will be where a specific country has tighter standards than the European ones, in which case both marks may appear, or where Europe does not have a standard - in which case the product is only approved for sale in one country.
So in most cases........

and just to reiterate again, negotiations are currently ongoing/incomplete/subject to agreement


The current hierarchy for Europe is:
ISO/IEC - International
CEN - European
BSI/DIN/etc - Country specific.

There are not standards at ISO level for everything.
In most cases the country-specific standard gets discussed among the CEN group and is then adopted as CEN standards.
So you will see, for example, BS EN 12195, but there isn’t an equivalent of BS1192. Then there’s ISO 13567, which is similar to BS1192, but if there is a difference between the two standards, then in the UK BS1192 overrides ISO 13567.

Wait, so currently exporters into the UK may already have to stamp a UK specific standard on some products? You were implying they would all stop if they had to do that post-brexit......:rolleyes:


Just to be clear, I do get your point - but;
A) It may be relatively moot
B) It's not the majority of cases
C) Some exporters already have to do this (thanks for your example)

Bee
3rd October 2017, 14:23
Exactly. My statement that you originally quoted was directed at somebody else, as part of an ongoing conversation which, you haven't familiarised yourself with. :tumble:

Feck :igmc:

Bean
3rd October 2017, 14:30
Stop Brexit Pessimism says Liam (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41483981)

and

While he was committed to getting a deal with the EU, he said

"The UK was prepared for alternative scenarios and contingency planning was taking place for no agreement being possible. "

So, hopefully those plans involve helping out the SMEs with the transition to the new era in trading from the UK.

As long as we have spending money, exporters will want a piece (but some may choose not to bother until later down the line, if at all) of it and they are welcome to trade with us.

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 14:35
It is the majority of cases. Most of the standards used in the UK are CE standards, hence why, many posts ago, I asked you to look at your laptop power supply, or your phone power supply.
They are CE marked, because the CEN standard has been agreed and accepted in the UK.

If you look at any legal power supply in the UK manufactured in the last 10 years, it will have a CE mark on it.
The CE mark is not directly tied to particular EN standards, but is based on European Commission directives that relate to standards.
And if we have the promised hard Brexit, then anything relating to the EC is being dropped, whether it is sensible, good for business, or not.

That’s just one example of a negative impact Brexit will have on the cost/price/quality of products in the UK. But hey, we’ve got an extra £350million a week in the NHS, so who cares if power supplies don’t need to be safe any more, the injured will be treated brilliantly in our hospitals by UK doctors and nurses.

Bee
3rd October 2017, 14:44
Most of the Brexit discussions end up like: Stay with the bike and I get the wheels. :laugh

Bean
3rd October 2017, 14:53
It is the majority of cases. Most of the standards used in the UK are CE standards, hence why, many posts ago, I asked you to look at your laptop power supply, or your phone power supply.
They are CE marked, because the CEN standard has been agreed and accepted in the UK.

If you look at any legal power supply in the UK manufactured in the last 10 years, it will have a CE mark on it.
The CE mark is not directly tied to particular EN standards, but is based on European Commission directives that relate to standards.
and UK exporters will continue to stamp it as such and abide by the directives, where required. One part of your prior argument was about costs incurred by businesses having to double stamp though was it not?


And if we have the promised hard Brexit, then anything relating to the EC is being dropped, whether it is sensible, good for business, or not.
If now appropriately sized, but nothing agreed yet WTFH


That’s just one example of a *potential* negative impact Brexit will have on the cost/price/quality of products in the UK.
Added the appropriate qualifier.



But hey, we’ve got an extra £350million a week in the NHS,
Such sentiments aren't mutually exclusive, and the £350m/wk was a headline figure and an option to anyone standing in a GE to include in their manifesto - when are vote leave running for parliament?


so who cares if power supplies don’t need to be safe any more, the injured will be treated brilliantly in our hospitals by UK doctors and nurses.
Witty but unrealistic

motoukenin
3rd October 2017, 17:55
So are you asserting that food bank use has only started since the slump in the pound?,
or are you just asserting there's been an increase due to the slump in the pound?
or neither?


The reason I ask, is that there have been some recent changes to benefits and the taxation system, which most people would expect to have some affect and yet are nothing to do with brexit...


They are welcome to set their prices accordingly and people will buy accordingly to their means, and other providers will be available and competing for business.\

Let me spell it out simpler for you so you understand.

We import 50% of our food , nearly all of our oil and about 65 % of our clothes , when our pound slumps like it has when we voted to leave the EU then imports cost more, its a fact as no company is going to subsidise this for 63 million people.

These are items that everyone buys , regardless of class or status , therefore the people who are just about managing will have to pay more for these items.

60 quid may not seem much to a contractor but 60 quid to millions of people is the difference between paying for food with money you have and slapping it on a credit card which is what people do and hence the massive increase in debt the UK has over any other EU country in the last year.

If this is a long term problem it was not in 2013 but is now , and about to get worse when we leave the EU then the credit card is maxed out and you have nowhere to go, except buy less food or clothes or fuel or starve or not get to work or go to a food bank or do some sort of car sharing or some combination of these , none of which is a solution to the problem and generally leads to more debt and higher costs which most can't pay, result in more divorce , house selling, job moves and redundancy.

In short people don't care a sh!t about an EU army , EU banks being proped up , EU laws or any of your other trivial ,irrelevant and sometimes completly inaccurate rantings , what they care about is getting by day to day, and clearly since Brexit which has pushed up the cost of these items as they are largely imported then they are going to see this more and more.

That is what the original poster is telling you but maybe you just want to ignore this as although this is happening here and now , it does not seem to fit with the idealogical view of Brexit which is on the whole a theory that up to now is going badly wrong because the EU are not doing what you want them to.

sasguru
3rd October 2017, 18:03
Mr. Bean seems to be unemployed and inexperienced to me judging by his juvenile ranting. Probably a student, probably living with him mum. Head firmly stuck up arse, probably a virgin.

WTFH
3rd October 2017, 18:53
and UK exporters will continue to stamp it as such and abide by the directives, where required. One part of your prior argument was about costs incurred by businesses having to double stamp though was it not?



And you are pointing the wrong way, as ever you’re ignoring what I’ve been saying, convinced that it’s the opposite. It’s not about selling outside the UK, it is about selling in the UK, whether by UK manufacturers or foreign suppliers.

Since you’re not interested in reading what is being written, there’s no point in trying to explain any further to you, you’re not interested in the truth, only in trying to spin it to mean the opposite.

bobspud
3rd October 2017, 19:00
I seem to recall the value of the pound being one of many nails in its coffin.

Please do correct me if I am wrong but the following factors that impacted their bottom line are not Brexit related:
Reduction in tourism following terror attacks in Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey
Increase in cheaper airfares to Spain and Portugal by other low cost operators that they were unable to compete with
Enforced cost cutting from 2014 when they were taken over by private equity firm that probably left them in a position to be less reactive to external pressures

They also failed to get into the low cost long haul market, like Norwegian has, where they possibly could have earned more revenue.

Good to see you didn't vote in the referendum but still think you deserve to have a say in what happens. If you cared so much, you should have put an X in a box.

Monarch was dead and buried by their choice of destinations and the trouble that had occurred there.

The pound dollar rate should have been inconsequential as airlines hedge their fuel purchases to ensure fluctuations do not **** them up...

As for boo hoo I didn’t get a fair go, I want another try.

:suicide:

BrilloPad
3rd October 2017, 19:05
An Asian goes into a bank and asks to change £1000 into EUR. He only gets 1000EUR. He asks why he gets so little. The teller replies "fluctuations".

The Asian replies "fluck to you Europeans then".

:tumble:

Bee
3rd October 2017, 20:02
Mr. Bean seems to be unemployed and inexperienced to me judging by his juvenile ranting. Probably a student, probably living with him mum. Head firmly stuck up arse, probably a virgin.



Based on a character originally developed by Atkinson while he was studying for his master's degree at Oxford University, the series follows the exploits of Mr. Bean, described by Atkinson as "a child in a grown man's body", in solving various problems presented by everyday tasks and often causing disruption in the process. Bean rarely speaks, and the largely physical humour of the series is derived from his interactions with other people and his unusual solutions to situations.


:laugh

Mordac
3rd October 2017, 22:38
Mr. Bean seems to be unemployed and inexperienced to me judging by his juvenile ranting. Probably a student, probably living with him mum. Head firmly stuck up arse, probably a virgin.

Alternatively known as "your twin". :wink

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 07:58
Mr. Bean seems to be unemployed and inexperienced to me judging by his juvenile ranting. Probably a student, probably living with him mum. Head firmly stuck up arse, probably a virgin.

That sounds like an articulate version of originalPM.

Beanyboy is alright, within the context of the broader Brexiteer congregation. I quite like the pole-choker stable - a bit of energy and a sense of humour.

original PM
4th October 2017, 08:01
That sounds like an articulate version of originalPM.

Beanyboy is alright, within the context of the broader Brexiteer congregation. I quite like the pole-choker stable - a bit of energy and a sense of humour.

Fook you wank stain

sasguru
4th October 2017, 08:17
Fook you wank stain

Language Timothy. You're on a public forum, not speaking to your mum.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 08:27
Fook you wank stain

QED ™

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 08:27
Language Timothy. You're on a public forum, not speaking to your mum.

If he spoke to his mum like that, she'd take away his Civ5 for a week.

original PM
4th October 2017, 08:32
Language Timothy. You're on a public forum, not speaking to your mum.

Anyone who randomly decides to insult me for no reason - because if you look I have not really posted on this thread - will be treated with the disdain they deserve.

I have no problems with a bit of banter during an active thread but just chucking insults randomly at posters not engaged in the discussions are the actions of a bully.

And I really dislike bullies.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 08:43
Anyone who randomly decides to insult me for no reason - because if you look I have not really posted on this thread - will be treated with the disdain they deserve.

I have no problems with a bit of banter during an active thread but just chucking insults randomly at posters not engaged in the discussions are the actions of a bully.

And I really dislike bullies.

Bullies pick on the weak. Are you weak?

Bean
4th October 2017, 08:44
\

Let me spell it out simpler for you so you understand.

We import 50% of our food , nearly all of our oil and about 65 % of our clothes , when our pound slumps like it has when we voted to leave the EU then imports cost more, its a fact as no company is going to subsidise this for 63 million people.

These are items that everyone buys , regardless of class or status , therefore the people who are just about managing will have to pay more for these items.

60 quid may not seem much to a contractor but 60 quid to millions of people is the difference between paying for food with money you have and slapping it on a credit card which is what people do and hence the massive increase in debt the UK has over any other EU country in the last year.

If this is a long term problem it was not in 2013 but is now , and about to get worse when we leave the EU then the credit card is maxed out and you have nowhere to go, except buy less food or clothes or fuel or starve or not get to work or go to a food bank or do some sort of car sharing or some combination of these , none of which is a solution to the problem and generally leads to more debt and higher costs which most can't pay, result in more divorce , house selling, job moves and redundancy.

In short people don't care a sh!t about an EU army , EU banks being proped up , EU laws or any of your other trivial ,irrelevant and sometimes completly inaccurate rantings , what they care about is getting by day to day, and clearly since Brexit which has pushed up the cost of these items as they are largely imported then they are going to see this more and more.

That is what the original poster is telling you but maybe you just want to ignore this as although this is happening here and now , it does not seem to fit with the idealogical view of Brexit which is on the whole a theory that up to now is going badly wrong because the EU are not doing what you want them to.

What is the problem?
What is the solution then?
How do you know what people care about (at least some voters interviewed have listed some things you listed as reasons for voting out...)?

I don't ignore people living outside of their means.
I'm aware most people don't have a rainy day fund.
Currency fluctuations can occur at any time, for multiple reasons.

Will the reduction/removal of tariffs from non-eu produce have no counter-effect on the prices of some goods?

Some people want to trigger house selling, or at least a correction to the bubble.
The government has an interest in keeping people in work, so will they take zero action?

Perhaps this is kick the country needs to wean itself off huge consumer debts, that have become an addiction?

Bean
4th October 2017, 08:44
Mr. Bean seems to be unemployed and inexperienced to me judging by his juvenile ranting. Probably a student, probably living with him mum. Head firmly stuck up arse, probably a virgin.

Wrong on all counts. That must be a surprise for you, given your crystal ball :laugh

Thank you for your ad-hominems and contribution to the discussion, as per usual :rolleyes:

Bean
4th October 2017, 08:47
And you are pointing the wrong way, as ever you’re ignoring what I’ve been saying, convinced that it’s the opposite. It’s not about selling outside the UK, it is about selling in the UK, whether by UK manufacturers or foreign suppliers.

Since you’re not interested in reading what is being written, there’s no point in trying to explain any further to you, you’re not interested in the truth, only in trying to spin it to mean the opposite.

I am interested in reading what you have written, specifically this;

"So you will see, for example, BS EN 12195, but there isn’t an equivalent of BS1192. Then there’s ISO 13567, which is similar to BS1192, but if there is a difference between the two standards, then in the UK BS1192 overrides ISO 13567."

So have I got it wrong, or is that YOU, positing that some foreign exporter, currently has to stamp a UK specific standard mark on products?

sasguru
4th October 2017, 08:48
Wrong on all counts. That must be a surprise for you, given your crystal ball :laugh

Thank you for your ad-hominems and contribution to the discussion, as per usual :rolleyes:

You do seem a bit thick though. Not ad-hominem, just an observation. Maybe I'm being too harsh and you're just a bit autistic.

original PM
4th October 2017, 08:50
Bullies pick on the weak. Are you weak?

Bullies pick on people they think are weak and will not fight back.

As soon as you stand up to a bully they normally go away - mainly because in the real world that often means a humiliating beating for the bully and a loss of perceived power.

As obviously we cannot go around beating the shit of other posters so a simple insult should suffice.

Bean
4th October 2017, 09:04
You do seem a bit thick though. Not ad-hominem, just an observation. Maybe I'm being too harsh and you're just a bit autistic.

So how did you 'observe' that;

"I probably live with my mum",
or
"that I was probably a virgin".

Logic isn't your string point is it? :winker::rollin:

You seem to have removed all doubt about yourself by posting that.

sasguru
4th October 2017, 09:09
So how did you 'observe' that;

"I probably live with my mum",
or
"that I was probably a virgin".

Logic isn't your string point is it? :winker::rollin:

You seem to have removed all doubt about yourself by posting that.

I'm surprised you don't post with caps, TBH :laugh:laugh:laugh
But you do make up for it with the underlining and bold. :laugh:rollin::rollin::rollin:

Shouldn't laugh really, mental illness isn't funny.

Bean
4th October 2017, 09:13
I'm surprised you don't post with caps, TBH :laugh:laugh:laugh
But you do make up for it with the underlining and bold. :laugh:rollin::rollin::rollin:

Shouldn't laugh really, mental illness isn't funny.

Sooo no explanation and therefore it was an ad-hominem - thanks for confirming :laugh:laugh

Well, I haven't seen too many people here laughing at your mental illness, they seem to have pity for you, mostly.

HTH BIDI

WTFH
4th October 2017, 09:20
I am interested in reading what you have written, specifically this;

"So you will see, for example, BS EN 12195, but there isn’t an equivalent of BS1192. Then there’s ISO 13567, which is similar to BS1192, but if there is a difference between the two standards, then in the UK BS1192 overrides ISO 13567."

So have I got it wrong, or is that YOU, positing that some foreign exporter, currently has to stamp a UK specific standard mark on products?

Let’s break it down and I will try to use small words.
If someone is supplying a product in the UK which is required to meet a standard, then evidence must be printed on the product or the packaging to prove it meets that standard.
The majority of standards the UK uses are actually International or European ones, e.g. BS EN12195 is a standard that is European. If the code contains EN then it is a European standard, if it contains ISO or IEC it is international.
That’s the majority of the standard used in the UK.
One of the reasons why the UK has adopted European standards is because it makes the manufacture and supply of goods easier globally for businesses wishing to supply Europe, including the UK.

There are a few - and I will repeat this because you’ve ignored it before - a few standards that are not used by Europe but are used by the UK. These tend not to be in the manufacturing and supply of goods. I have given an example of BS1192 which is about how technical drawings should be drawn. This includes information such as “THRO” is the British Standard in drawings as an abbreviation for “THROUGH”
ISO 13567 is the international standard for computer aided design layers.

So, to repeat, there are a few standards used in the UK which are UK specific. Most standards the UK uses for the manufacturing and supply of goods are European ones.

I was going to go on and try to explain to you again what this means to currently trading businesses, but if you don’t understand the basics, you’ll not be able to understand the impact that they have on businesses in the UK or businesses that supply to the UK.

Cirrus
4th October 2017, 09:42
Will the reduction/removal of tariffs from non-eu produce have no counter-effect on the prices of some goods?
Let us be absolutely clear: nobody voted for tariff-free trade. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

The looney right are slipping in this nonsense because they know if half the population is so stupid they would vote Yes then they can be hoodwinked on any other barmy idealogy.

Tariff free trade is not a good thing.

Bean
4th October 2017, 09:47
Let us be absolutely clear: nobody voted for tariff-free trade. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

The looney right are slipping in this nonsense because they know if half the population is so stupid they would vote Yes then they can be hoodwinked on any other barmy idealogy.

Tariff free trade is not a good thing.

We voted to leave the EU and the implication that the government of the day would negotiate our withdrawal.

This is interesting about EU tariffs on Africa;
African Farmers Are Condemned To Poverty By The Morally Repugnant EU, Says Brexit-Backing MP James Cleverly | HuffPost UK (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/africa-eu-poverty-james-cleverly_uk_5720d08be4b0a1e971cad84f)

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 09:50
Bullies pick on people they think are weak and will not fight back.

As soon as you stand up to a bully they normally go away - mainly because in the real world that often means a humiliating beating for the bully and a loss of perceived power.

As obviously we cannot go around beating the tulip of other posters so a simple insult should suffice.

Maybe in your case, you're simply a sad little alt-right cocksniffer, so the abuse is entirely deserved. I do see of course that your 'I'm being bullied' refrain aligns neatly with the alt-right inadequate white male persecution complex.

sasguru
4th October 2017, 09:51
The looney right are slipping in this nonsense because they know if half the population is so stupid they would vote Yes then they can be hoodwinked on any other barmy idealogy.

.

I think we should let the looney right rip.
Get Bozo in power with Gove as his right hand man and let's rock and roll.
The entertainment value would be sublime.:laugh

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 09:52
I think we should let the looney right rip.
Get Bozo in power with Gove as his right hand man and let's rock and roll.
The entertainment value would be sublime.:laugh

I vote Jacob Rees Mogg for the health portfolio.

sasguru
4th October 2017, 09:55
I vote Jacob Rees Mogg for the health portfolio.

Priti Patel as Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gove as Home Secretary

Shouldn't do things by halves, let's go "peak cretin".

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 09:57
Priti Patel as Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gove as Home Secretary

Shouldn't do things by halves, let's go "peak cretin".

Michael Fabricant for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy.

Bean
4th October 2017, 09:58
Let’s break it down and I will try to use small words.
If someone is supplying a product in the UK which is required to meet a standard, then evidence must be printed on the product or the packaging to prove it meets that standard.
The majority of standards the UK uses are actually International or European ones, e.g. BS EN12195 is a standard that is European. If the code contains EN then it is a European standard, if it contains ISO or IEC it is international.
That’s the majority of the standard used in the UK.
One of the reasons why the UK has adopted European standards is because it makes the manufacture and supply of goods easier globally for businesses wishing to supply Europe, including the UK.

There are a few - and I will repeat this because you’ve ignored it before - a few standards that are not used by Europe but are used by the UK. These tend not to be in the manufacturing and supply of goods. I have given an example of BS1192 which is about how technical drawings should be drawn. This includes information such as “THRO” is the British Standard in drawings as an abbreviation for “THROUGH”
ISO 13567 is the international standard for computer aided design layers.

So, to repeat, there are a few standards used in the UK which are UK specific. Most standards the UK uses for the manufacturing and supply of goods are European ones.

I was going to go on and try to explain to you again what this means to currently trading businesses, but if you don’t understand the basics, you’ll not be able to understand the impact that they have on businesses in the UK or businesses that supply to the UK.

"I previously wrote about us ALL assuming too much, for instance, wasn't there a proposal that we may stay inside the CEN and therefore most, if not all of your point is moot?"

and

"we're likely to assimilate most of the EU instruments" - meaning we meet the currently defined market regulations and exporters currently have to stamp it CE.


If this isn't possible, or agreed - then yes, the UK will have to look at helping businesses adjust to the changes - but I'm sure we'd accept the CE mark for the vast majority of goods on day#1 after Brexit, whilst the UK specific scheme is rolling out, at which point we can eventually rely on the UK-based scheme.


As for cba exporters - we spend money, they are free to supply goods to us, or not - voluntary nature of business, but the majority will be wanting a slice of our earnings.
Basic Capitalism.

sasguru
4th October 2017, 09:59
Michael Fabricant for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy.

Iain Duncan Smith for Justice. He'd sort out the enemies of the people. Fooking independent judiciary, what a silly idea.

Bean
4th October 2017, 09:59
Priti Patel as Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gove as Home Secretary

Shouldn't do things by halves, let's go "peak cretin".

In that case Boris is deputy, to you.

HTH

sasguru
4th October 2017, 10:01
Liam Fox for Health.
At least he could claim some faint knowledge and experience of that particular portfolio.:rollin:

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 10:03
Iain Duncan Smith for Justice. He'd sort out the enemies of the people. Fooking independent judiciary, what a silly idea.

Anna Marie Morris for Communities and Local Government.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 10:03
Eric Pickles for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport.

sasguru
4th October 2017, 10:04
Eric Pickles for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport.

:laugh

WTFH
4th October 2017, 10:07
"I previously wrote about us ALL assuming too much, for instance, wasn't there a proposal that we may stay inside the CEN and therefore most, if not all of your point is moot?"

and

"we're likely to assimilate most of the EU instruments" - meaning we meet the currently defined market regulations and exporters currently have to stamp it CE.


If this isn't possible, or agreed - then yes, the UK will have to look at helping businesses adjust to the changes - but I'm sure we'd accept the CE mark for the vast majority of goods on day#1 after Brexit, whilst the UK specific scheme is rolling out, at which point we can eventually rely on the UK-based scheme.


As for cba exporters - we spend money, they are free to supply goods to us, or not - voluntary nature of business, but the majority will be wanting a slice of our earnings.
Basic Capitalism.

There is no proposal to stay inside CEN or to stay in the European Commission. I have pointed out that it would be a good idea if the UK did and explained why. Every time you try to twist my words, when you realise you’re still wrong you trot out “but it might not happen”. You’re right, Brexit might not happen.

But since your mind thinks that making products more expensive for the UK market and closing down UK businesses is just “basic capitalism”, then you are accepting that Brexit is really bad for the UK economy long term. In the short term, while the UK slavishly accepts new EC rules and CEN standards post Brexit, then the issue is non existent. But if UK businesses when selling in the UK are abiding by EC rules, then we’ve not really left, have we?

Basic Intelligence.

motoukenin
4th October 2017, 10:16
What is the problem?
What is the solution then?
How do you know what people care about (at least some voters interviewed have listed some things you listed as reasons for voting out...)?

I don't ignore people living outside of their means.
I'm aware most people don't have a rainy day fund.
Currency fluctuations can occur at any time, for multiple reasons.

Will the reduction/removal of tariffs from non-eu produce have no counter-effect on the prices of some goods?

Some people want to trigger house selling, or at least a correction to the bubble.
The government has an interest in keeping people in work, so will they take zero action?

Perhaps this is kick the country needs to wean itself off huge consumer debts, that have become an addiction?

Although I do understand and actually agree with some of your arguments, the way Brexit has been managed by UK gov has been at best amateur. Thinking that they could leave and tell the EU what the deal was going to be was just naive and now we are in a position with increasing interest rates , mortage payments going up , stagnant wage levels and to cap it all having to put tariffs on imported goods to protect businesses here , and more importantly tax revenue's which is just going to make it even harder.

I am pretty sure that when the 2 years is up , or when we know in Oct 2018 what he deal is UK Gov will be facing huge strikes, low popularity and there will be a general impression from the public that this has not been done well, possibly even an election where Mr Corbyn will be giving us a new misguided view of how it should be done.

Am I so glad I got out of UK when I did.

sasguru
4th October 2017, 10:30
Corbyn is getting in whatever happens, unless the Tories do something radical (which works for the young)

The demographics are so skewed in his favour as to be scary:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/

Lance
4th October 2017, 10:37
Corbyn is getting in whatever happens, unless the Tories do something radical (which works for the young)

The demographics are so skewed in his favour as to be scary:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/

the only thing missing from that 'demographic' study is the number of people in each age group. Which makes it interesting but NOT demographic.
The only thing that the Tories care about more than Brexit at the moment is how to win the next election. They're on the case and it's why May is still there as they're not ready for a GE yet.
Corbyn might be dead in 3 years.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 10:40
the only thing missing from that 'demographic' study is the number of people in each age group. Which makes it interesting but NOT demographic.
The only thing that the Tories care about more than Brexit at the moment is how to win the next election. They're on the case and it's why May is still there as they're not ready for a GE yet.
Corbyn might be dead in 3 years.

I thought May was the hill walker.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 10:40
Boris for Foreign and Commonwealth Office.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLIm0HOvuQ


By the old Moulmein Pagoda, lookin' eastward to the sea,
There's a Burma girl a-settin', and I know she thinks o' me;
For the wind is in the palm-trees, and the temple-bells they say:
"Come you back, you British soldier; come you back to Mandalay!"
Come you back to Mandalay,
Where the old Flotilla lay:
Can't you 'ear their paddles chunkin' from Rangoon to Mandalay?
On the road to Mandalay,
Where the flyin'-fishes play,
An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China 'crost the Bay!

'Er petticoat was yaller an' 'er little cap was green,
An' 'er name was Supi-yaw-lat -- jes' the same as Theebaw's Queen,
An' I seed her first a-smokin' of a whackin' white cheroot,
An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:
Bloomin' idol made o'mud --
Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd --
Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed 'er where she stud!
On the road to Mandalay . . .

When the mist was on the rice-fields an' the sun was droppin' slow,
She'd git 'er little banjo an' she'd sing "Kulla-lo-lo!"
With 'er arm upon my shoulder an' 'er cheek agin' my cheek
We useter watch the steamers an' the hathis pilin' teak.
Elephints a-pilin' teak
In the sludgy, squdgy creek,
Where the silence 'ung that 'eavy you was 'arf afraid to speak!
On the road to Mandalay . . .

But that's all shove be'ind me -- long ago an' fur away,
An' there ain't no 'busses runnin' from the Bank to Mandalay;
An' I'm learnin' 'ere in London what the ten-year soldier tells:
"If you've 'eard the East a-callin', you won't never 'eed naught else."
No! you won't 'eed nothin' else
But them spicy garlic smells,
An' the sunshine an' the palm-trees an' the tinkly temple-bells;
On the road to Mandalay . . .

I am sick o' wastin' leather on these gritty pavin'-stones,
An' the blasted Henglish drizzle wakes the fever in my bones;
Tho' I walks with fifty 'ousemaids outer Chelsea to the Strand,
An' they talks a lot o' lovin', but wot do they understand?
Beefy face an' grubby 'and --
Law! wot do they understand?
I've a neater, sweeter maiden in a cleaner, greener land!
On the road to Mandalay . . .

Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
Where there aren't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst;
For the temple-bells are callin', an' it's there that I would be --
By the old Moulmein Pagoda, looking lazy at the sea;
On the road to Mandalay,
Where the old Flotilla lay,
With our sick beneath the awnings when we went to Mandalay!
On the road to Mandalay,
Where the flyin'-fishes play,
An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China 'crost the Bay!

Oh.

sasguru
4th October 2017, 10:42
the only thing missing from that 'demographic' study is the number of people in each age group. Which makes it interesting but NOT demographic.
The only thing that the Tories care about more than Brexit at the moment is how to win the next election. They're on the case and it's why May is still there as they're not ready for a GE yet.
Corbyn might be dead in 3 years.

As well as the number in each age group, it's the proportion who vote that matters. That info is in there.
If the young turnout grows the Tories are fooked. And Corbyn seems good at doing that.

Dunno if there are more people in the 18-50 age group than 50+ although it's close:

United Kingdom Age structure - Demographics (http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/age_structure.html)

And Corbyn won't die in 3 years - he's a teetotaller, healthy eater :laugh:laugh

Lance
4th October 2017, 10:45
I thought May was the hill walker.

if she did die they'd keep her on ice for a year or so. Wheel her out every few months.

Like the ruskies did with this chap https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/spittingimage/images/3/33/Konstantin_Chernenko.png/revision/latest?cb=20141119231752

Bean
4th October 2017, 10:58
There is no proposal to stay inside CEN or to stay in the European Commission. I have pointed out that it would be a good idea if the UK did and explained why. Every time you try to twist my words, when you realise you’re still wrong you trot out “but it might not happen”. You’re right, Brexit might not happen.

But since your mind thinks that making products more expensive for the UK market and closing down UK businesses is just “basic capitalism”, then you are accepting that Brexit is really bad for the UK economy long term. In the short term, while the UK slavishly accepts new EC rules and CEN standards post Brexit, then the issue is non existent. But if UK businesses when selling in the UK are abiding by EC rules, then we’ve not really left, have we?

Basic Intelligence.

Ah ok, I may have mixed up you suggesting with the UK proposing......I'm not trying to twist your words (feel free to not believe that if you wish) honest, Your points just seems to contradict themselves at certain points.

I'm not accepting that, merely pointing out under capitalism - prices will be set and people can choose to buy. Those prices will change (or the products no longer offered) if the market conditions dictate.

Nobody knows what the final settlement/agreement will be. Nobody knows which bodies/orgs/standards we may or may not be part of at the end of it, so most of everyone's posts are crystal-balling. I accept this - but you don't appear to.

Also, following the regulations of the market, in which you want to sell - is a condition of trade - but as previously pointed out, it won't (shouldn't) include a while raft of EU regulations unrelated to trade.

I'm simply stating that since the CEN standards appear (after posts in this thread) to be reasonably stringent/decent, it would be a good to idea (if no UK specific scheme has been setup in time) to accept them, until such a time as the UK scheme starts.

Bean
4th October 2017, 11:05
Although I do understand and actually agree with some of your arguments, the way Brexit has been managed by UK gov has been at best amateur.
Agreed. Although saying that, It was always going to be difficult, even if a cross-party team was doing it (perhaps even more so in that case!)


Thinking that they could leave and tell the EU what the deal was going to be was just naive and now we are in a position with increasing interest rates , mortage payments going up , stagnant wage levels and to cap it all having to put tariffs on imported goods to protect businesses here , and more importantly tax revenue's which is just going to make it even harder.
It's not completely 1-sided, but we all have to see what happens in the end (unless a CuKer is on one of the neg teams)


I am pretty sure that when the 2 years is up , or when we know in Oct 2018 what he deal is UK Gov will be facing huge strikes, low popularity and there will be a general impression from the public that this has not been done well, possibly even an election where Mr Corbyn will be giving us a new misguided view of how it should be done.
Very possible, not that many in the WM bubble will care - ~95% of them will end up keeping their jobs (well, snouts in trough)


Am I so glad I got out of UK when I did.
Where did you go out of interest?

Mordac
4th October 2017, 11:09
I vote Jacob Rees Mogg for the health portfolio.

"Minister for Children with silly names", surely...

:igmc:

WTFH
4th October 2017, 11:31
"Minister for Children with silly names", surely...

:igmc:

That’s Nanny’s job.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 11:35
That’s Nanny’s job.

Nanny gets Defence.

Bee
4th October 2017, 12:43
It's not completely 1-sided, but we all have to see what happens in the end (unless a CuKer is on one of the neg teams)



Should not be this way, when you vote, you need to vote with conscience, means smart enough to preview the consequences.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 12:46
if she did die they'd keep her on ice for a year or so. Wheel her out every few months.

Like the ruskies did with this chap https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/spittingimage/images/3/33/Konstantin_Chernenko.png/revision/latest?cb=20141119231752

http://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/d/d3/TheresaMay1.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20160712154921

Lance
4th October 2017, 12:51
http://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/d/d3/TheresaMay1.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20160712154921

Uncanny.
I hope that’s her death mask and not her cumface.....

Bean
4th October 2017, 12:53
Should not be this way, when you vote, you need to vote with conscience, means smart enough to preview the consequences.

In an ideal world yes, the consequences of both possible outcomes would be known and a completely informed choice could be made.

Unfortunately, they were/are not (for both sides) as this decision and the process of leaving is a precedent.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 12:54
Uncanny.
I hope that’s her death mask and not her cumface.....

Just use the same face twice. Government efficiency.

Mordac
4th October 2017, 13:32
Should not be this way, when you vote, you need to vote with conscience, means smart enough to preview the consequences.

Osborne & Camoron got it wrong, as we know, so anything can happen. Perhaps the EU will start being reasonable instead of behaving like schoolboys who are upset that we want to leave their gang, but I'm not holding my breath...

Bee
4th October 2017, 14:04
Osborne & Camoron got it wrong, as we know, so anything can happen. Perhaps the EU will start being reasonable instead of behaving like schoolboys who are upset that we want to leave their gang, but I'm not holding my breath...

Of course, EU is upset, and why on hearth EU should be happy?
The only schoolboys that I see in this process are the British.

northernladyuk
4th October 2017, 14:13
Osborne & Camoron got it wrong, as we know, so anything can happen. Perhaps the EU will start being reasonable instead of behaving like schoolboys who are upset that we want to leave their gang, but I'm not holding my breath...

I have come to realise that you probably actually believe the nonsense you spout.

mav2005
27th February 2018, 20:32
:alien