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motoukenin
13th October 2017, 07:36
Having plenty of time over this week and the next few weeks to go on various web sites, join as a member of the forum and expose Brexit fabrications and misconceptions I have noticed a very sinister trend.

Although many of the assumptions , misconceptions and sometimes downright lies are easily disproved there seems to be a growing trend of spite in some of the responses, its a sort of "well my life is tulip so why shouldn't other people experience what I am?" a lesson to understand their plight.

I do understand that there are a lot of angry people out there who feel that previous generations have let them down and to some extent have some sympathy with that but there is no point arguing with these people as even if the outcome is disaster , and I think some now realise that, in some kind of twisted way its what they want.

So I have now decided to focus my attention on getting the Young Conservatives to vote differently , a few photos of cuddly foxes to pursue them that fox hunting was not a good policy and maybe they are backing the wrong team seem to have gone down well so far.

BrilloPad
13th October 2017, 07:41
there seems to be a growing trend of spite in some of the responses


Go f0k yourself.

:rolleyes:

cojak
13th October 2017, 07:41
He's finally realised what we've known for ages.

Thank feck for that...

BrilloPad
13th October 2017, 07:45
He's finally realised what we've known for ages.

Thank feck for that...

Don't argue with idiots - ban them?

NotAllThere
13th October 2017, 07:50
Don't argue with idiots - ban them?

May I refer the honourable member to my previous answer. If we ban people for being idiots, where will it all end?

milanbenes
13th October 2017, 08:04
May I refer the honourable member to my previous answer. If we ban people for being idiots, where will it all end?

that is indeed an interesting question

if we ban all of the idiots who would be left, hmm,

me, and who else, can't think of anyone, if I'm the last one will I have to be the Moderator too ?

Milan.

motoukenin
13th October 2017, 08:08
He's finally realised what we've known for ages.

Thank feck for that...

Instead of a one liner critique, how about you explain to us all how a nurse who will get no real pay rise over the next 2 years and is now facing higher mortgage / rent costs , food and fuel prices is going to dramatically improve her life as a result of Brexit ?

Appreciate you don't need to apologise that would be the job of Mr Johnson as he quite categorically stated that the economic outlook would not be worse, still it would be helpful for me to understand as I know a nurse back in the UK who is struggling and can pass your comments on.

Lance
13th October 2017, 08:18
Instead of a one liner critique, how about you explain to us all how a nurse who will get no real pay rise over the next 2 years and is now facing higher mortgage / rent costs , food and fuel prices is going to dramatically improve her life as a result of Brexit ?



Why use nurses as an example?
I know quite a few nurses and not one of them voted Brexit. I have no real evidence that the majority of nurses voted remain I'm afraid, but even so I'm not sure your choice of example is a good one.

How about Sunderland car factory workers? Or Lincolnshire people who've never done a days gang-work in their lives? They did vote for Brexit, overwhelmingly, and are almost certainly gonna be among the first to get f***ed.

NigelJK
13th October 2017, 08:53
Although many of the assumptions , misconceptions and sometimes downright lies are easily disproved

I'd disagree, but it's also worth noting that the other sides lies were easier to expose.

So what are you hoping to achieve with your hot air and waste of effort?

simondolan
13th October 2017, 09:00
Instead of a one liner critique, how about you explain to us all how a nurse who will get no real pay rise over the next 2 years and is now facing higher mortgage / rent costs , food and fuel prices is going to dramatically improve her life as a result of Brexit ?

Appreciate you don't need to apologise that would be the job of Mr Johnson as he quite categorically stated that the economic outlook would not be worse, still it would be helpful for me to understand as I know a nurse back in the UK who is struggling and can pass your comments on.

Her life wouldn't improve dramatically with or without Brexit. Nor would it get dramatically worse either way.

TestMangler
13th October 2017, 09:02
Don't argue with idiots - ban them?

Great idea. Bye Brillo :laugh

shaunbhoy
13th October 2017, 09:05
Her life wouldn't improve dramatically with or without Brexit. Nor would it get dramatically worse either way.

Don't go introducing facts to this. His tiny brain may well explode.

:laugh

BrilloPad
13th October 2017, 09:06
Instead of a one liner critique, how about you explain to us all how a nurse who will get no real pay rise over the next 2 years and is now facing higher mortgage / rent costs , food and fuel prices is going to dramatically improve her life as a result of Brexit ?

Appreciate you don't need to apologise that would be the job of Mr Johnson as he quite categorically stated that the economic outlook would not be worse, still it would be helpful for me to understand as I know a nurse back in the UK who is struggling and can pass your comments on.

Cojak is way to clever to say anything on Brexit.

However I would like to say that the gap between rich and poor has been getting bigger since 1933. And will carry on getting bigger. And Brexit will make it worse.

Tell your nurse friend to never ever vote Tory/Labour again. Even if Korbyn gets in he will turn into Blair. This country needs better politicians and bankers.

I work for a bank. Its incredibly inefficient. How do they stay in business? Its a monopoly.

sasguru
13th October 2017, 09:15
Don't go introducing facts to this. His tiny brain may well explode.

:laugh

Here's a fact for your tiny brain, Simon's opinion is just that, an opinion, not a fact.

HTH, BIDI.

shaunbhoy
13th October 2017, 09:16
Here's a fact for your tiny brain, Simon's opinion is just that, an opinion, not a fact.

HTH, BIDI.

Uncanny......and I was just referring to retarded donkeys on a related thread too.

Cometh the hour cometh the Ass! :laugh

simondolan
13th October 2017, 09:20
Here's a fact for your tiny brain, Simon's opinion is just that, an opinion, not a fact.

HTH, BIDI.

That's true, except what I said was indeed a fact. Like all my opinions.

motoukenin
13th October 2017, 09:23
Her life wouldn't improve dramatically with or without Brexit. Nor would it get dramatically worse either way.

So your telling me that Brexit was not responsible for the pound dropping and hence causing inflation to rise ?

simondolan
13th October 2017, 09:24
Cojak is way to clever to say anything on Brexit.

However I would like to say that the gap between rich and poor has been getting bigger since 1933. And will carry on getting bigger. And Brexit will make it worse.

Tell your nurse friend to never ever vote Tory/Labour again. Even if Korbyn gets in he will turn into Blair. This country needs better politicians and bankers.

I work for a bank. Its incredibly inefficient. How do they stay in business? Its a monopoly.

Its a cartel, but point taken. And very true.

As to the gap between rich and poor, so what? Surely a more pertinent question is "has the standard of living increased for everyone since 1933 or whatever". The answer is undeniably yes. The poor today have untold riches compared to the poor of 1933. Lets say the gap between rich and poor was only 50%. Would that be good if we were all scrabbling around in the dirt trying to eek out an existence?

BrilloPad
13th October 2017, 09:29
Its a cartel, but point taken. And very true.

As to the gap between rich and poor, so what? Surely a more pertinent question is "has the standard of living increased for everyone since 1933 or whatever". The answer is undeniably yes. The poor today have untold riches compared to the poor of 1933. Lets say the gap between rich and poor was only 50%. Would that be good if we were all scrabbling around in the dirt trying to eek out an existence?

Societies in which the gap between rich and poor are small are the most contented.

For a while the mob can be placated with cheap booze and flat screen TVs.

Lance
13th October 2017, 09:29
Its a cartel, but point taken. And very true.

As to the gap between rich and poor, so what? Surely a more pertinent question is "has the standard of living increased for everyone since 1933 or whatever". The answer is undeniably yes. The poor today have untold riches compared to the poor of 1933. Lets say the gap between rich and poor was only 50%. Would that be good if we were all scrabbling around in the dirt trying to eek out an existence?

spoken like a multi-millionaire ;)

The modern global economy has brought billions of people out of poverty. The only 'sufferers' (for want of a better word) are the lower middle class, and working class in the G7 countries. The ones who ironically voted for something that will harm them the most in any case.

simondolan
13th October 2017, 09:30
So your telling me that Brexit was not responsible for the pound dropping and hence causing inflation to rise ?

Inflation is what it was in 2012 - before the vote. And still historically low. Sterling back to where it was in late 2016. Your contention then I guess is that nurses were better off then?

simondolan
13th October 2017, 09:31
Societies in which the gap between rich and poor are small are the most contented.



Like Venezuela ?

simondolan
13th October 2017, 09:32
spoken like a multi-millionaire ;)

The modern global economy has brought billions of people out of poverty. The only 'sufferers' (for want of a better word) are the lower middle class, and working class in the G7 countries. The ones who ironically voted for something that will harm them the most in any case.

Very true.

woohoo
13th October 2017, 09:34
Having plenty of time over this week and the next few weeks to go on various web sites, join as a member of the forum and expose Brexit fabrications and misconceptions I have noticed a very sinister trend.

Although many of the assumptions , misconceptions and sometimes downright lies are easily disproved there seems to be a growing trend of spite in some of the responses, its a sort of "well my life is tulip so why shouldn't other people experience what I am?" a lesson to understand their plight.

I do understand that there are a lot of angry people out there who feel that previous generations have let them down and to some extent have some sympathy with that but there is no point arguing with these people as even if the outcome is disaster , and I think some now realise that, in some kind of twisted way its what they want.

So I have now decided to focus my attention on getting the Young Conservatives to vote differently , a few photos of cuddly foxes to pursue them that fox hunting was not a good policy and maybe they are backing the wrong team seem to have gone down well so far.

Scooterscot is that you?? Scoots, come on tell me is that you.

shaunbhoy
13th October 2017, 09:34
So your telling me that Brexit was not responsible for the pound dropping and hence causing inflation to rise ?

"Uncertainty" is responsible. Same as always.

HTH

simondolan
13th October 2017, 09:36
"Uncertainty" is responsible. Same as always.

HTH

That and traders looking to make a quick buck betting against a currency :-)

Lance
13th October 2017, 09:37
Societies in which the gap between rich and poor are small are the most contented.

For a while the mob can be placated with cheap booze and flat screen TVs.

how about some facts around inequality in the UK...

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/styles/620/public/How%20has%20inequality%20changed%20to%202015-16%20IFS.jpg?itok=Ox3AKeqc

This shows the gini co-efficient. The higher the number the more unequal.
So it's not rising massively like the Guardian/Comrade Corbyn says. Although it is higher than in the booming 70s (* if booming means a 3 day week, power cuts, expensive fuel, outside toilets etc. etc.)

BrilloPad
13th October 2017, 09:39
Like Venezuela ?

Ah. CUK extrapolation. A woman is not pregnant one day and pregnant the next. After 40 weeks she will deliver 280 babies.

If you are going to spot bollox, best to have a sockie account. Or is sasguru one of yours?

mattfx
13th October 2017, 09:41
In terms of real issues:

Will the average working / middle class person notice a massive difference in your wallet because of Brexit? No, probably not.

Asked however if that same person will now face a mountain of paperwork when wanting to go on holiday anywhere, or purchase anything from another country the answer is undoubtedly yes because of the god damn customs union issues.

NigelJK
13th October 2017, 09:43
Any news on the OP's intentions?

shaunbhoy
13th October 2017, 09:45
Asked however if that same person will now face a mountain of paperwork when wanting to go on holiday anywhere, or purchase anything from another country the answer is undoubtedly yes

Well hardly...............unless your idea of a mountain is dutch-flavoured.

:wink

motoukenin
13th October 2017, 09:52
Inflation is what it was in 2012 - before the vote. And still historically low. Sterling back to where it was in late 2016. Your contention then I guess is that nurses were better off then?

Nurses have had effectively a pay cut over the last 7 years due to pay caps and the 1% pay rise inflation has made them effectively £1000 worse off.

That may have been OK pre Brexit as inflation was very low, now we have inflation at around 2.8% and rising all as a result of Brexit , god forbid we don't go out on WTO rules as that will cause inflation to rise faster , but nurses still are not being given a pay rise and Mr Johnson told everyone , I remember it well , that Brexit would not cause any economic decline if people voted to leave.

Just exposing lies of Tory government , I accept Brexit and you may find it surprising that I also support some of its benefits, but I do believe they now deserve an apology from Mr Johnson.

BrilloPad
13th October 2017, 09:58
Nurses have had effectively a pay cut over the last 7 years due to pay caps and the 1% pay rise inflation has made them effectively £1000 worse off.

That may have been OK pre Brexit as inflation was very low, now we have inflation at around 2.8% and rising all as a result of Brexit , god forbid we don't go out on WTO rules as that will cause inflation to rise faster , but nurses still are not being given a pay rise and Mr Johnson told everyone , I remember it well , that Brexit would not cause any economic decline if people voted to leave.

Just exposing lies of Tory government , I accept Brexit and you may find it surprising that I also support some of its benefits, but I do believe they now deserve an apology from Mr Johnson.

Hopefully at Brexit all the foreign nurses will leave. The UK will train far more and they will be better paid.

motoukenin
13th October 2017, 10:02
I'd disagree, but it's also worth noting that the other sides lies were easier to expose.

So what are you hoping to achieve with your hot air and waste of effort?

Yes but as we were already in , I think the onus was on the leavers to make a good case to leave that would benefit everyone, without lying.

Probably won't achieve a lot but for people on low incomes getting the right facts out is important.

milanbenes
13th October 2017, 10:07
Hopefully at Brexit all the foreign nurses will leave. The UK will train far more and they will be better paid.


yes Brillo, and pigs might fly

Milan.

simondolan
13th October 2017, 10:14
Ah. CUK extrapolation. A woman is not pregnant one day and pregnant the next. After 40 weeks she will deliver 280 babies.

If you are going to spot bollox, best to have a sockie account. Or is sasguru one of yours?

Straw man argument rather than extrapolation, but taking that into account - what examples can you give of the assertion you made that countries with less disparity between rich and poor (which remember is always relative) are indeed "happier" or "more content"

simondolan
13th October 2017, 10:15
Nurses have had effectively a pay cut over the last 7 years due to pay caps and the 1% pay rise inflation has made them effectively £1000 worse off.



What is the maths behind that £1000?

NigelJK
13th October 2017, 10:16
Probably won't achieve a lot but for people on low incomes getting the right facts out is important.

Facts about what exactly?
Post-referendum it's largely irrelevant 'wot won it' (bit like the Blair Government getting in for a third term when they'd basically bankrupted the country).
If by facts you mean the constant political 'briefings' to the media, these are not facts they are predictions with a particular slant (on either side). T

he sooner we get shot of a layer of policitocs the better, and why stop there we need 'small' government.

Lance
13th October 2017, 10:18
Straw man argument rather than extrapolation, but taking that into account - what examples can you give of the assertion you made that countries with less disparity between rich and poor (which remember is always relative) are indeed "happier" or "more content"

I was trying to find a graph that shows exactly that.
Unfortunately happiness cannot be quantified so is not a useful measure of anything.

Although the murder rate can be quantified and does appear to correlate with inequality.
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014/02/what-most-violent-nations-world-have-common/6015/

shaunbhoy
13th October 2017, 10:53
What is the maths behind that £1000?

Now you'll make him take his socks and shoes off again..................:laugh

milanbenes
13th October 2017, 10:56
Now you'll make him take his socks and shoes off again..................:laugh


you see Shaun you can do clever humour when you put your mind to it

good job

Milan.

simondolan
13th October 2017, 10:58
you see Shaun you can do clever humour when you put your mind to it

good job

Milan.

:laugh

simondolan
13th October 2017, 10:59
I was trying to find a graph that shows exactly that.
Unfortunately happiness cannot be quantified so is not a useful measure of anything.



Perhaps that is why undefinable and subjective things like "happiness" and "contentment" are used in the argument.....?

Lance
13th October 2017, 11:02
Perhaps that is why undefinable and subjective things like "happiness" and "contentment" are used in the argument.....?

Lord Kelvin quotation.

"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."

simondolan
13th October 2017, 11:03
Lord Kelvin quotation.

"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."

Nice - I shall have to learn that one.

sasguru
13th October 2017, 11:03
Straw man argument rather than extrapolation, but taking that into account - what examples can you give of the assertion you made that countries with less disparity between rich and poor (which remember is always relative) are indeed "happier" or "more content"

Obviously these things are hard to quantify, but insofar as research has been carried out it does tend to support the notion e.g.

https://hbr.org/2016/01/income-inequality-makes-whole-countries-less-happy

If you're well travelled you'll also observe that the rich in countries with extreme wealth disparity (e.g. South Africa, Kenya) tend to retreat into highly securitised gated communities and don't go out much at night. Which I don't suppose makes the rich very happy either.

Lance
13th October 2017, 11:04
Nice - I shall have to learn that one.

as an accountant I'm amazed you don't already

sasguru
13th October 2017, 11:05
Lord Kelvin quotation.

"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."

Which can be summarised, to Brexiters in particular, as "Your ******* brain farts don't matter".

SueEllen
13th October 2017, 11:07
Obviously these things are hard to quantify, but insofar as research has been carried out it does tend to support the notion e.g.

https://hbr.org/2016/01/income-inequality-makes-whole-countries-less-happy

If you're well travelled you'll also observe that the rich in countries with extreme wealth disparity (e.g. South Africa, Kenya) tend to retreat into highly securitised gated communities and don't go out much at night. Which I don't suppose makes the rich very happy either.

They also have armed private security....

motoukenin
13th October 2017, 11:52
Facts about what exactly?
Post-referendum it's largely irrelevant 'wot won it' (bit like the Blair Government getting in for a third term when they'd basically bankrupted the country).
If by facts you mean the constant political 'briefings' to the media, these are not facts they are predictions with a particular slant (on either side). T

he sooner we get shot of a layer of policitocs the better, and why stop there we need 'small' government.

I would prefer an honest government otherwise you end up with Trump

BrilloPad
13th October 2017, 11:55
Obviously these things are hard to quantify, but insofar as research has been carried out it does tend to support the notion e.g.

https://hbr.org/2016/01/income-inequality-makes-whole-countries-less-happy

If you're well travelled you'll also observe that the rich in countries with extreme wealth disparity (e.g. South Africa, Kenya) tend to retreat into highly securitised gated communities and don't go out much at night. Which I don't suppose makes the rich very happy either.

:yay:

Ditto Greece.

However, as you say, "tend" is the correct word.

shaunbhoy
13th October 2017, 11:56
you see Shaun you can do clever humour when you put your mind to it

good job

Milan.

Mmmm.....a benesy recommendation does come with certain strings attached though. A bit like getting a decent Trip Advisor rating from someone that has been sleeping rough on the rain-soaked streets and has just spent a night in a hostel.

:laugh

milanbenes
13th October 2017, 12:38
Mmmm.....a benesy recommendation does come with certain strings attached though. A bit like getting a decent Trip Advisor rating from someone that has been sleeping rough on the rain-soaked streets and has just spent a night in a hostel.

:laugh


that would have been funny but it was too long for the meagre ending

still some work to do old chap, but you're getting there

Milan.

bobspud
13th October 2017, 13:01
I do understand that there are a lot of angry people out there who feel that previous generations have let them down and to some extent have some sympathy with that but there is no point arguing with these people as even if the outcome is disaster , and I think some now realise that, in some kind of twisted way its what they want.

So I have now decided to focus my attention on getting the Young Conservatives to vote differently , a few photos of cuddly foxes to pursue them that fox hunting was not a good policy and maybe they are backing the wrong team seem to have gone down well so far.

A few points to note:

1) Of course we are leaving the EU to teach the rich idiots in London and south east a lesson. That was never any doubt on that and you could see the poor sharpening their pencils for exit the very minute that chinless twat Osborn stood up and said it will crash house prices and cause economic woes. Yes it was cynical that the leavers used that vitriol to get them what they wanted but frankly we the middle classes provided the petrol for this no doubts.

2) On Foxes: If you let the countryside alliance hunt the little ginger c%nts with rocket launchers, there would be 10 mile queues. The only people that care about foxes are the inner city dwellers that have never had to sweep up the body parts of their chickens or other pets just because they had fallen victim to a fox that wanted to play.

cojak
13th October 2017, 13:02
Instead of a one liner critique, how about you explain to us all how a nurse who will get no real pay rise over the next 2 years and is now facing higher mortgage / rent costs , food and fuel prices is going to dramatically improve her life as a result of Brexit ?

Appreciate you don't need to apologise that would be the job of Mr Johnson as he quite categorically stated that the economic outlook would not be worse, still it would be helpful for me to understand as I know a nurse back in the UK who is struggling and can pass your comments on.

Ah, but you didn't say that in your original post did you? You said:



Although many of the assumptions , misconceptions and sometimes downright lies are easily disproved there seems to be a growing trend of spite in some of the responses, its a sort of "well my life is tulip so why shouldn't other people experience what I am?" a lesson to understand their plight.


And that's what we've known for ages.

It's all here in this article (from a US paper, so there's a different viewpoint.
The isolationist catastrophe of 'Brexit' - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-klaas-dirsus-leave-victory-in-britain-20160623-snap-story.html)

simondolan
13th October 2017, 13:08
Obviously these things are hard to quantify, but insofar as research has been carried out it does tend to support the notion e.g.

https://hbr.org/2016/01/income-inequality-makes-whole-countries-less-happy

If you're well travelled you'll also observe that the rich in countries with extreme wealth disparity (e.g. South Africa, Kenya) tend to retreat into highly securitised gated communities and don't go out much at night. Which I don't suppose makes the rich very happy either.

Interesting article isn't it. Strange though how the nordic countries are high or highest on the wellbeing list, and yet suicide rates much higher than the UK for example. Goes to show how complex a field it is. One thing is for sure, zero disparity between the rich and poor doesn't work - not like it hasn't been tried many times before! By trying to artificially manipulate the market driven disparity you are on a slippery slope to the bottom. Which benefits no one.

Bee
13th October 2017, 13:16
that is indeed an interesting question

if we ban all of the idiots who would be left, hmm,

me, and who else, can't think of anyone, if I'm the last one will I have to be the Moderator too ?

Milan.

and me. :)

milanbenes
13th October 2017, 13:20
Hello Bee,

in that case you can be the Moderatoress

Milan.

Bee
13th October 2017, 13:22
Hello Bee,

in that case you can be the Moderatoress

Milan.

Only with you. :D

bobspud
13th October 2017, 13:27
Interesting article isn't it. Strange though how the nordic countries are high or highest on the wellbeing list, and yet suicide rates much higher than the UK for example. Goes to show how complex a field it is. One thing is for sure, zero disparity between the rich and poor doesn't work - not like it hasn't been tried many times before! By trying to artificially manipulate the market driven disparity you are on a slippery slope to the bottom. Which benefits no one.

My dad (grew up in the east end in the second world war) has a great theory on this. TV kills more people than guns. They were pot-less when he grew up but they were all in poverty so everyone was in ignorance of how shit it was. Today we have a media complex built on showing twats like the Kardashians pissing money up the wall and being well deserving of a painful death. So the poor get infinite time to sit and watch how the other 1% live.

It not only creates envy but it shows them how shit their life is and how they need a new phone coat or other piece of crap to make them feel like a class they will never reach.

As for suicide in the Nordics. Try living without sunlight for most of the year...

milanbenes
13th October 2017, 13:32
Only with you. :D


I'll keep that in mind for when the time comes

Now, how do we get rid of the rest of them ?

Milan.

simondolan
13th October 2017, 13:35
My dad (grew up in the east end in the second world war) has a great theory on this. TV kills more people than guns. They were pot-less when he grew up but they were all in poverty so everyone was in ignorance of how tulip it was. Today we have a media complex built on showing twats like the Kardashians pissing money up the wall and being well deserving of a painful death. So the poor get infinite time to sit and watch how the other 1% live.

It not only creates envy but it shows them how tulip their life is and how they need a new phone coat or other piece of crap to make them feel like a class they will never reach.

As for suicide in the Nordics. Try living without sunlight for most of the year...

Possibly but I think research has shown that peoples malcontent comes from comparison with immediate peers rather than "celebs".

Nordics - kinda makes my point that the "happiness" index isn't perhaps all its cracked up to be!

motoukenin
13th October 2017, 13:47
Ah, but you didn't say that in your original post did you? You said:



And that's what we've known for ages.

It's all here in this article (from a US paper, so there's a different viewpoint.
The isolationist catastrophe of 'Brexit' - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-klaas-dirsus-leave-victory-in-britain-20160623-snap-story.html)

OK , from your reply to the original it looked like you were a supporter of f**g up the UK economy. Good news that your not and I will put you down as a long term converter.

darmstadt
13th October 2017, 14:08
Poland, Russia, Belgium and India all have higher suicide rates than the Nordic countries and the United Kingdom has a higher suicide rate than Greece and they're well buggered...

cojak
13th October 2017, 14:13
OK , from your reply to the original it looked like you were a supporter of f**g up the UK economy. Good news that your not and I will put you down as a long term converter.

I wouldn’t if I were you - I voted to leave...

sasguru
13th October 2017, 14:25
A few points to note:

1) Of course we are leaving the EU to teach the rich idiots in London and south east a lesson. That was never any doubt on that and you could see the poor sharpening their pencils for exit the very minute that chinless twat Osborn stood up and said it will crash house prices and cause economic woes. Yes it was cynical that the leavers used that vitriol to get them what they wanted but frankly we the middle classes provided the petrol for this no doubts.
.

Problem is it won't work. The rich educated koonts in London and the South East (of which I am one) will be just fine. It's the thick fookers who haven't been able to get on their bike for whatveer reason who'll suffer. Which is totally right and correct. Just invest in security firms - we're simply going to have more inequality and the rich will retreat into their guarded gated communities, like parts of the US :laugh:laugh

Lance
13th October 2017, 14:41
So the poor get infinite time to sit and watch how the other 1% live.



and herein lies a big issue.
The 1% are your neighbours, friends and family, and you as an IT contractor are also likely in the top 1% of earners (depending on how you measure it). 1% is a LOT of ordinary people.

Corbyn and McDonnel want to tax the f*** out of the 1%. The 0.1% and the 0.01% will be just fine, but the vitriolic hatred for the 1% will allow them to tax the hard workers.

The Kardashians (whoever they are) are likely in the 0.001%

bobspud
13th October 2017, 14:46
Problem is it won't work. The rich educated koonts in London and the South East (of which I am one) will be just fine. It's the thick fookers who haven't been able to get on their bike for whatveer reason who'll suffer. Which is totally right and correct. Just invest in security firms - we're simply going to have more inequality and the rich will retreat into their guarded gated communities, like parts of the US :laugh:laugh

The difference is in London the thugs are well armed and the rich can't carry guns so its a fairly uneven. As a little titbit to make you feel nice and safe. A few years ago an average recovered firearm could be attributed to anything up to 20 shootings. Today the majority are single use weapons...

Your security guards cannot carry arms. the guy robing you... thats another matter.

sasguru
13th October 2017, 14:47
The difference is in London the thugs are well armed and the rich can't carry guns so its a fairly uneven. As a little titbit to make you feel nice and safe. A few years ago an average recovered firearm could be attributed to anything up to 20 shootings. Today the majority are single use weapons...

Your security guards cannot carry arms. the guy robing you... thats another matter.

Bollux. This is a game the rich always win. If firearm crime increases in London, things will be done.
After all this is where the governing classes live.

bobspud
13th October 2017, 14:57
and herein lies a big issue.
The 1% are your neighbours, friends and family, and you as an IT contractor are also likely in the top 1% of earners (depending on how you measure it). 1% is a LOT of ordinary people.

Corbyn and McDonnel want to tax the f*** out of the 1%. The 0.1% and the 0.01% will be just fine, but the vitriolic hatred for the 1% will allow them to tax the hard workers.

The Kardashians (whoever they are) are likely in the 0.001%

There was a good documentary a while back that talked about the 1% the alarming thing is when you go to global scale, all of the UK poor included make up part of that 1%

https://www.ifs.org.uk/wheredoyoufitin/

bobspud
13th October 2017, 15:00
Bollux. This is a game the rich always win. If firearm crime increases in London, things will be done.
After all this is where the governing classes live.

Sorry darlin you are not getting your toys back. The terrorists have sorted that out for you permanently. The police are not going to help either they will just turn up and zip up the remains and give out a crime reference number. Try not to look too effluent :rollin:

sasguru
13th October 2017, 15:04
Sorry darlin you are not getting your toys back. The terrorists have sorted that out for you permanently. The police are not going to help either they will just turn up and zip up the remains and give out a crime reference number. Try not to look too effluent :rollin:

What a pile of utter crap. You need to get out more instead of shivering with fear in your little hole in the arse end of nowhere. :laugh:laugh:laugh
I'll try not to be too "effluent" :rollin::rollin::rollin:

sasguru
13th October 2017, 15:14
Seriously though, what kind of world is Brexit going to bring?
Obviously the short term effects depend on the deal, but in the longer term I don't predict complete disaster.
I reckon the UK will become more like the US.
The Brexit heartlands of the North will become even more deprived (manufacturing will be hit particularly after Brexit) .
People who thought they were poor will experinece US levels of poverty which are no different to the 3rd world.
Public sector will decline, the NHS will be to expensive to run as is and will eventually fail.
The cities and SE will probably thrive - the UK still has some of the best universities in the world and they're still going to churn out clever people.
The glorious sunny uplands for everyone are a Brexit delusion.

Whorty
13th October 2017, 20:28
Hopefully at Brexit all the foreign nurses will leave. The UK will train far more and they will be better paid.

ha ha ha ....... oh, you're being serious :suicide:

AtW
13th October 2017, 20:48
The difference is in London the thugs are well armed and the rich can't carry guns so its a fairly uneven.

The rich can afford to be robbed...

administrator
13th October 2017, 21:03
The rich can afford to be robbed...

I've seen your accounts. Tell me your route to the office and we can work something out :D

AtW
13th October 2017, 21:06
I've seen your accounts. Tell me your route to the office and we can work something out :D

:eek

vetran
13th October 2017, 22:08
May I refer the honourable member to my previous answer. If we ban people for being idiots, where will it all end?

with Cojak in sole charge?

northernladyuk
13th October 2017, 22:20
with Cojak in sole charge?

Cojak voted leave.

bobspud
14th October 2017, 06:02
There is one more aspect to this leave vs remain debate

And this chap has nailed...

https://capx.co/when-will-the-treasury-be-called-to-account/

The next time a remain supporter starts whaling about doom, remind them that their information probably came from a snot nosed kid in a bubble...

No group think in the treasury at all .. nope they are a really independent bunch of economists...

sasguru
14th October 2017, 08:19
There is one more aspect to this leave vs remain debate

And this chap has nailed...

https://capx.co/when-will-the-treasury-be-called-to-account/

The next time a remain supporter starts whaling about doom, remind them that their information probably came from a snot nosed kid in a bubble...

No group think in the treasury at all .. nope they are a really independent bunch of economists...

If you had the slightest modicum of a high quality rigorous education, which clearly you do not, you might understand that providing links to some website with an agenda does not constitute any sort of proof of anything.

Hth, byptt

bobspud
14th October 2017, 08:51
If you had the slightest modicum of a high quality rigorous education, which clearly you do not, you might understand that providing links to some website with an agenda does not constitute any sort of proof of anything.

Hth, byptt

Neither does fundamentalism based on what your betters want you to fear. The whole remain argument was staged and argued from the treasury. But if you have had the misfortune to deal with them you would recognise the narrative that is described. Also any modicum of time spent near central government civil services would probably give you a better understanding of what you are actually supporting when you follow their narrative.

As a hint the civil service has flooded itself with inclusion loving useless wobbles. It doesn’t want to build a better society it wants to **** about with LGBT targets. The treasury has been choking the crap out of any attempt to start building any Brexit based systems as anyone in the relevant departments will tell you.

The muffled snigger of oh good I want them to do that is not really very bright because what they are doing is more or less ensuring the country crashes.

Still it won’t affect them and you will be gone.

BlasterBates
14th October 2017, 09:02
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/865924/Brexit-news-EU-boss-Juncker-Britain-pay-negotiations-take-longer

I think Juncker has hit the nail on the head.


He drew laughs from a crowd at the University of Luxembourg as he repeatedly said Britain "must pay" its financial obligations to the bloc, comparing its actions to a drinker refusing to buy a round of beer.

Britain needs to get its finger out any pay the bar bill.

:D

bobspud
14th October 2017, 09:15
Brexit news - EU boss Juncker says Brexit will take LONGER than people thought | Politics | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/865924/Brexit-news-EU-boss-Juncker-Britain-pay-negotiations-take-longer)

I think Juncker has hit the nail on the head.



Britain needs to get its finger out any pay the bar bill.

:D

I think he looks pretty silly given that we paid some very clever people to debunk the theory that we have any obligations. For the record I think we should do our best to support the other EU states as we leave but as for propping up that pickled old sod's bar bill....

:moon:

darmstadt
14th October 2017, 09:28
I think he looks pretty silly given that we paid some very clever people to debunk the theory that we have any obligations. For the record I think we should do our best to support the other EU states as we leave but as for propping up that pickled old sod's bar bill....

:moon:

Stop talking about David Davis that way, he's doing his best :happy

sasguru
14th October 2017, 09:39
Neither does fundamentalism based on what your betters want you to fear. The whole remain argument was staged and argued from the treasury. But if you have had the misfortune to deal with them you would recognise the narrative that is described. Also any modicum of time spent near central government civil services would probably give you a better understanding of what you are actually supporting when you follow their narrative.

As a hint the civil service has flooded itself with inclusion loving useless wobbles. It doesn’t want to build a better society it wants to **** about with LGBT targets. The treasury has been choking the crap out of any attempt to start building any Brexit based systems as anyone in the relevant departments will tell you.

The muffled snigger of oh good I want them to do that is not really very bright because what they are doing is more or less ensuring the country crashes.

Still it won’t affect them and you will be gone.

Yes of course the whole Remain argument comes from the Treasury:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
There are no business people in the City, manufacturing and trade organisations like the SMMT (https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/brexit/) and Rolls Royce (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40332913) etc etc who are concerned.

This current campaign by Brexiters to discredit Hammond and the Treasury is obviously not motivated by anything except the truth.:rolleyes:
Really you're on another level of stupid, vulnerable to the smallest whiff of propaganda that conforms to your brainfarts.

administrator
14th October 2017, 09:49
WBSS - I think we should pay but only when what the right amount to pay has been decided. What they want us to pay and what we are obliged to pay are likely to be very different amounts. Let the lawyers battle that one out. That is going to prolong the process though and if the EU are saying they won't discuss trade until that is sorted then it is them holding up the process, not us. The divorce bill needs to be confirmed, yes, but to stall everything else until that has been agreed seems a silly way to do it.

The EU have been very clear that they do not want us to get a good deal as it will encourage other countries to do the same. Don't listen to the chatter and sound bites around the stories, look at the overall intentions and how the "news" is tailored to push towards desired outcomes.

The EU are making themselves look petty at present with their one liners and this feeds into glee in the remain camp that the government are a bunch of confused, bumbling baboons. I still have faith in them to work out a way around these issues. Call me a misguided fool if you want but I am still happy to be working towards getting out. My only concern is that the EU will stuff this up enough for another gov to get in here and call another referendum giving a route back in to the EU.

As for the OP on this post I totally agree with what Mr Dolan said, in or out will make very little difference to the less well off here. Same with Labour and the tuition fees, the youth loved them for that but do not realise they will just end up paying more in other taxes when they are older, misguided dolts that they are. The country giveth, and the country taketh away.

BlasterBates
14th October 2017, 10:15
In the end the UK will have a deal very similar to Switzerland, paying into the budget, freedom of movement with a token gesture and subject to most of the EU regulations, therefore people won't be much affected.

It is a bit like living in a semi-detached house and not trusting your neighbour, it doesn't matter what sort of legal steps you take, if their half collapses your house does too.

SueEllen
14th October 2017, 10:29
WBSS - I think we should pay but only when what the right amount to pay has been decided. What they want us to pay and what we are obliged to pay are likely to be very different amounts. Let the lawyers battle that one out. That is going to prolong the process though and if the EU are saying they won't discuss trade until that is sorted then it is them holding up the process, not us. The divorce bill needs to be confirmed, yes, but to stall everything else until that has been agreed seems a silly way to do it.

When you are negotiating with someone you don't wind them up even if the person is an a***hole. Davis and now even Hammond has wound up the EU side.



The EU have been very clear that they do not want us to get a good deal as it will encourage other countries to do the same.

The only deals we can have are similar to what other countries have so it's either Switzerland, Norway or Canada. The 4 freedoms are fundamental EU principles and both Switzerland and Norway comply with them.

It also would help if our Brexit Secretary and the UK negotiating team actually read the EU directives and realised that we can implement things under EU law e.g. chucking people out after 3 months if they can't stand on their own too feet economically before starting the negotiation. (Then again when your PM was the Home Secretary who could have brought things like this in it is better to stay silent over something.)



Don't listen to the chatter and sound bites around the stories, look at the overall intentions and how the "news" is tailored to push towards desired outcomes.

Most of our "news" comes from media moguls who know that while they can't control or influence the EU and the governments any other EU country they can strongly influence the UK government.



The EU are making themselves look petty at present with their one liners

Stop believing the press run by the media moguls who strongly influence the UK government.



and this feeds into glee in the remain camp that the government are a bunch of confused, bumbling baboons.

Some of ministers in government like some of our MPs in all parties are. For example Boris and Hunt keep sprouting shit which have been pointed out to them is statistically not true however you slice up the figures. Then we have the idiots on the opposition side who can't remember to bring with them the notes they are given.



I still have faith in them to work out a way around these issues. Call me a misguided fool if you want but I am still happy to be working towards getting out.

You said it. It is all a con to keep the Tory party together.



My only concern is that the EU will stuff this up enough for another gov to get in here and call another referendum giving a route back in to the EU.

Funny thing is Corby is anti-EU. Unfortunately he's annoyed so many of his MPs he's had to surround himself with idiots.



As for the OP on this post I totally agree with what Mr Dolan said, in or out will make very little difference to the less well off here. Same with Labour and the tuition fees, the youth loved them for that but do not realise they will just end up paying more in other taxes when they are older, misguided dolts that they are. The country giveth, and the country taketh away.

The youth actually want things like affordable decent housing so they don't have to live with their parents into their 30s, a working NHS, and jobs with prospects and decent pay e.g. ones that aren't on zero hours contracts. You forget that not all 18-25 years olds go to university, and even out of the nearly 50% that start not all of them finish.

sasguru
14th October 2017, 10:45
The EU are making themselves look petty at present with their one liners and this feeds into glee in the remain camp that the government are a bunch of confused, bumbling baboons. I still have faith in them to work out a way around these issues. Call me a misguided fool if you want but I am still happy to be working towards getting out. My only concern is that the EU will stuff this up enough for another gov to get in here and call another referendum giving a route back in to the EU.
.

I just love the way you Brexiters live in alternative non-factual universe. :laugh
Of course the talks not going well is all the EU's fault, nothing at all to do with the fact that the Tory cabinet are fighting like ferrets in a sack, with completely different views of which direction Brexit should go.
Bit hard to negotiate when you haven't settled on what you want, what?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4580334/boris-johnson-pm-brexit-red-lines/
https://www.ft.com/content/06251f4e-7d1a-11e7-ab01-a13271d1ee9c?mhq5j=e6
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/the-biggest-cabinet-brexit-split/
Cabinet split over handling of Brexit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/08/cabinet-split-over-handling-of-brexit/)

simondolan
14th October 2017, 10:45
The youth actually want things like affordable decent housing so they don't have to live with their parents into their 30s, a working NHS, and jobs with prospects and decent pay e.g. ones that aren't on zero hours contracts. You forget that not all 18-25 years olds go to university, and even out of the nearly 50% that start not all of them finish.

So, the "youth" just want a decent house they can afford, decent healthcare whenever they want it, and a job with prospects and decent pay. Lets assume that's pretty much what every citizen would want. Wanting something doesn't entitle you to anything. Only EARNING it does. Otherwise, its simply someone else paying for it for you, and therein lies the slippery slope. Who gets decide that a "want" should be paid for by your neighbour?

sasguru
14th October 2017, 11:00
So, the "youth" just want a decent house they can afford, decent healthcare whenever they want it, and a job with prospects and decent pay. Lets assume that's pretty much what every citizen would want. Wanting something doesn't entitle you to anything. Only EARNING it does. Otherwise, its simply someone else paying for it for you, and therein lies the slippery slope. Who gets decide that a "want" should be paid for by your neighbour?

Completely agree.
According to some on this thread, though, Brexiters were motivated by spite at what they didn't have.
You may be right that their miserable existence isn't going to change much either way, but the odds are they'll become worse.
Simply because the foreign manufacturers will fook off out of here at the merest whiff of tariffs.

BlasterBates
14th October 2017, 11:58
Completely agree.
According to some on this thread, though, Brexiters were motivated by spite at what they didn't have.
You may be right that their miserable existence isn't going to change much either way, but the odds are they'll become worse.
Simply because the foreign manufacturers will fook off out of here at the merest whiff of tariffs.

Britain will end up half stuck out of the EU i.e. in the same position it was before the referendum but without any say. This is in the words of prominent Brexiteers such as Nigel Farage and Jacob-Rees Mogg worse than being in the EU. This means in the long term Brexiteers will simply be more miserable and unhappy than they were before the referendum. What will compound their misery is that UK government ministers won't be stopping their regular humiliating visits to Brussels after Brexit, they will continue and the sight of EU bureaucrats scoffing and sneering at the Secretary State for EU relations will be happening every few months. For this reason they may not regret their decision as they will still hate the EU but they will regret the fact that the referendum took place.

SueEllen
14th October 2017, 12:24
So, the "youth" just want a decent house they can afford, decent healthcare whenever they want it, and a job with prospects and decent pay. Lets assume that's pretty much what every citizen would want. Wanting something doesn't entitle you to anything. Only EARNING it does.

I actually didn't say that you decided to interpret it like that. And it clearly shows how out of touch you are as a millionaire.



Otherwise, its simply someone else paying for it for you, and therein lies the slippery slope. Who gets decide that a "want" should be paid for by your neighbour?


One of the problems facing people ever hard they work is that they can't afford to rent places let alone buy due to the UK not building enough housing. In regards to UK healthcare have a look at the complaints on this forum from people clearly in the top 5% of UK earners.

northernladyuk
14th October 2017, 13:02
So, the "youth" just want a decent house they can afford, decent healthcare whenever they want it, and a job with prospects and decent pay. Lets assume that's pretty much what every citizen would want. Wanting something doesn't entitle you to anything. Only EARNING it does. Otherwise, its simply someone else paying for it for you, and therein lies the slippery slope. Who gets decide that a "want" should be paid for by your neighbour?

Do you even understand what is meant by decent affordable housing?

SueEllen
14th October 2017, 13:06
Do you even understand what is meant by decent affordable housing?

Don't bother.

The problem with some millionaires is unless they also do charity work where they go into people's houses they don't see the poor conditions some people live in.

northernladyuk
14th October 2017, 13:07
I actually didn't say that you decided to interpret it like that. And it clearly shows how out of touch you are as a millionaire.



One of the problems facing people ever hard they work is that they can't afford to rent places let alone buy due to the UK not building enough housing. In regards to UK healthcare have a look at the complaints on this forum from people clearly in the top 5% of UK earners.

Plenty of lampposts around Susie for when voters realise the have been duped.

simondolan
14th October 2017, 14:45
I actually didn't say that you decided to interpret it like that. And it clearly shows how out of touch you are as a millionaire.



One of the problems facing people ever hard they work is that they can't afford to rent places let alone buy due to the UK not building enough housing. In regards to UK healthcare have a look at the complaints on this forum from people clearly in the top 5% of UK earners.

What bit of this:

"The youth actually want things like affordable decent housing so they don't have to live with their parents into their 30s, a working NHS, and jobs with prospects and decent pay " did I misinterpret?

Out of touch - probably. No, definitely, however the logic I was arguing applies doesn't it?

sasguru
14th October 2017, 14:48
So, the "youth" just want a decent house they can afford, decent healthcare whenever they want it, and a job with prospects and decent pay. Lets assume that's pretty much what every citizen would want. Wanting something doesn't entitle you to anything. Only EARNING it does. Otherwise, its simply someone else paying for it for you, and therein lies the slippery slope. Who gets decide that a "want" should be paid for by your neighbour?


What bit of this:

"The youth actually want things like affordable decent housing so they don't have to live with their parents into their 30s, a working NHS, and jobs with prospects and decent pay " did I misinterpret?

Out of touch - probably. No, definitely, however the logic I was arguing applies doesn't it?

Your error in logic is assuming that the youth want all that stuff for free.
I think they're willing to work for it, but you can be very successful and hard working and not afford a house in the SE.
If you substitute "youth" with "Brexiters" though you're spot on, according to some on here.

northernladyuk
14th October 2017, 15:23
What bit of this:

"The youth actually want things like affordable decent housing so they don't have to live with their parents into their 30s, a working NHS, and jobs with prospects and decent pay " did I misinterpret?

Out of touch - probably. No, definitely, however the logic I was arguing applies doesn't it?

Susie is stating a desire for a society in which decent housing is affordable, presumably to all those of moderate ability who are prepared to work had for a living. Saying they need to earn it does not address the state of the market.

northernladyuk
14th October 2017, 15:28
Your error in logic is assuming that the youth want all that stuff for free.
I think they're willing to work for it, but you can be very successful and hard working and not afford a house in the SE.
If you substitute "youth" with "Brexiters" though you're spot on, according to some on here.

Take a look at http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/

It is common enough for people in Simon's position to tend towards thinking that people end up in the position they deserve, and then behaving accordingly.

simondolan
14th October 2017, 16:12
Your error in logic is assuming that the youth want all that stuff for free.
I think they're willing to work for it, but you can be very successful and hard working and not afford a house in the SE.
If you substitute "youth" with "Brexiters" though you're spot on, according to some on here.

No, I didn't assume they wanted all that for free, but what you mean I think is that they would like it at a discount to the market value. That being the case, someone else will be paying for it. Therefore, the Govt is going to have to force someone to pay for someone else "wants". Of course, nothing intrinsically wrong with that when you talk about basic necessities (food, basic shelter etc), but when it comes to having a decent house in an area they particularly fancy, and a job with the sort of wage they would really like and good prospects and so on, then this has gone too far. Is it desirable to have everyone having all these things? Of course it is. Is it achievable by forcing someone else to pay for it, no.

simondolan
14th October 2017, 16:17
Take a look at http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/

It is common enough for people in Simon's position to tend towards thinking that people end up in the position they deserve, and then behaving accordingly.

That article really is bollocks. Sorry but:

Finding #4: Rich people are more likely to ignore pedestrians

If that's the best you can do.....

Let me ask you a question. Do you think that on the whole, generally speaking, ignoring outliers, people do actually end up in something like the position they deserve, or is it all just chance?

northernladyuk
14th October 2017, 16:26
No, I didn't assume they wanted all that for free, but what you mean I think is that they would like it at a discount to the market value. That being the case, someone else will be paying for it. Therefore, the Govt is going to have to force someone to pay for someone else "wants". Of course, nothing intrinsically wrong with that when you talk about basic necessities (food, basic shelter etc), but when it comes to having a decent house in an area they particularly fancy, and a job with the sort of wage they would really like and good prospects and so on, then this has gone too far. Is it desirable to have everyone having all these things? Of course it is. Is it achievable by forcing someone else to pay for it, no.

The market it broken, in part by constraints put on it by government, such as green belt planning restrictions. It is achievable without 'forcing someone else to pay for it' if this is addressed.

BrilloPad
14th October 2017, 16:38
The market it broken

Sadly true.

However it will get much more broken.

simondolan
14th October 2017, 16:41
Sadly true.

However it will get much more broken.

Agreed.

BrilloPad
14th October 2017, 16:44
Agreed.

Sadly the only way young people can ghet ahead is to borrow every penny they can any invest in bitcoin. And get out before the crash.

sasguru
14th October 2017, 20:50
Let me ask you a question. Do you think that on the whole, generally speaking, ignoring outliers, people do actually end up in something like the position they deserve, or is it all just chance?

It's a silly question and indicative that people need more education in statistics.
Of course chance is the biggest component of success.
It starts with birth.
You get born with a decent IQ in a rich country.
Immediately, with no effort on your part, you're in the top 5-10% of the world.
There are, statistically, at least a few hundred million people in the world with above average intelligence and an impressive work ethic who will never make it.

BUt if you're asking if there are very many lazy people in this country with a sense of entitlement, you're right, there are.
And they all voted Brexit.

BlasterBates
14th October 2017, 20:55
Tories siding with Corbyn to thwart Brexit (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/866006/brexit-latest-news-ammendments-block-eu-withdrawal-bill)

Lets face it the UK isn't really going to leave the EU and the EU know it. Most MP's are cheering for Barnier.

:D

bobspud
15th October 2017, 03:53
Yes of course the whole Remain argument comes from the Treasury:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
There are no business people in the City, manufacturing and trade organisations like the SMMT (https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/brexit/) and Rolls Royce (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40332913) etc etc who are concerned.

This current campaign by Brexiters to discredit Hammond and the Treasury is obviously not motivated by anything except the truth.:rolleyes:
Really you're on another level of stupid, vulnerable to the smallest whiff of propaganda that conforms to your brainfarts.

I have worked with the Treasury thanks very much. They are exactly as that article describes them. The same points that I have mentioned and linked to have also been openly stated by other MP's namely that the treasury is a bunch of kids with no collective corporate memory. They have no rigorous auditing of their outputs and absolutely no intention of admitting to failures. They are unchecked and the last bunch of people on the planet you should be listening to for wealth creation tips.

Now fook off abroad and stop moaning about the things you have no hope of controlling.

bobspud
15th October 2017, 03:59
You get born with a decent IQ in a rich country.


Erm not quite. Most of the guys I have met that are occupying the top jobs have IQ's lower than my dog... But probably went to one or more public schools. Execution trumps IQ every time.

sasguru
15th October 2017, 08:12
I have worked with the Treasury thanks very much. They are exactly as that article describes them. The same points that I have mentioned and linked to have also been openly stated by other MP's namely that the treasury is a bunch of kids with no collective corporate memory. They have no rigorous auditing of their outputs and absolutely no intention of admitting to failures. They are unchecked and the last bunch of people on the planet you should be listening to for wealth creation tips.

Now fook off abroad and stop moaning about the things you have no hope of controlling.


Erm not quite. Most of the guys I have met that are occupying the top jobs have IQ's lower than my dog... But probably went to one or more public schools. Execution trumps IQ every time.

Whoosh! Way to to miss the point on both posts.
When I said you were another level of stupid I was right, as you prove every time you post.

bobspud
15th October 2017, 09:27
Whoosh! Way to to miss the point on both posts.
When I said you were another level of stupid I was right, as you prove every time you post.

:moon:

vetran
15th October 2017, 09:30
:moon:

don't show him your arse he will think he is back in prep school!

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 09:51
Great quote from Michael Heseltine:


“The customs parks they want him to build could become the cemeteries of British trade interests in which the lorries park and wait. And wait…”

vetran
15th October 2017, 09:52
The sinister side of Brexit is that despite the EU lying about becoming a Superstate with its own Army & government, with a little bit of luck we will get German police (admittedly we need to improve their handling of sex offences) or UK police not the spanish (more on them later).

They have publicly gone on record saying they want to punish us for having the audacity for leaving.

We can assume the punishment beatings will continue. Seems Bojo was right months ago and the Spanish proved it.

The EU has caused some of our worst food scares.

Many countries ignore the rules and illegally favour their own business. Plenty of countries in the EU are considered world leaders at corruption.

Half of Eastern Europe has moved here to hold the wages down and repatriate money to make their countries richer.

half of Africa has moved to Europe.

Yet you want to stay, I reckon its Stockholm syndrome.

vetran
15th October 2017, 09:57
Great quote from Michael Heseltine:

Would that be Micheal Stab you in the back, slice me through and you will see yellow stars Hessy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_affair



In early January Lloyds Bank sent Heseltine a letter and in his reply he listed the things which in his view would happen if Westland chose Sikorsky instead of the European alternative. He claimed, contradicting Thatcher's reassurances to Cuckney, that Westland risked losing future European orders if the Sikorsky option was chosen. Heseltine leaked this letter to The Times. The letter, on Thatcher's request, was referred to the Solicitor-General, Patrick Mayhew.

Shocking he is so for remain.

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 09:57
Great article by Michael: :D

Brexit failing (http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/866583/brexit-eu-european-union-philip-hammond-michael-heseltine-marxism-michel-barnier)


Novelist Robert Harris put it perfectly when he said last week: ‘The Brexiteers are sounding increasingly like Marxists: the theory is perfect, it just hasn’t been implemented properly’.

“This is why they are seeking a Treasury scapegoat, as the argument slips away from them.

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 10:29
Would that be Micheal Stab you in the back, slice me through and you will see yellow stars Hessy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_affair




Shocking he is so for remain.

Westland makes an Interesting story. Basically their strategy of building US helicopters failed because only the MoD would buy them. Lets face it why would any one buy an Apache or Sikorsky helicopter from Westland when they can buy a better one from Boeing or Sikorsky. They have since merged with a European helicopter manufacturer and sell them all over the world.

In conclusion Heseltine was right, building US licensed helicopters was a stupid idea, it basically allowed them only to sell to the MoD, who probably wouldn't have bought them if they had been free to choose.

sasguru
15th October 2017, 10:31
The sinister side of Brexit is that despite the EU lying about becoming a Superstate with its own Army & government, with a little bit of luck we will get German police (admittedly we need to improve their handling of sex offences) or UK police not the spanish (more on them later).

They have publicly gone on record saying they want to punish us for having the audacity for leaving.

We can assume the punishment beatings will continue. Seems Bojo was right months ago and the Spanish proved it.

The EU has caused some of our worst food scares.

Many countries ignore the rules and illegally favour their own business. Plenty of countries in the EU are considered world leaders at corruption.

Half of Eastern Europe has moved here to hold the wages down and repatriate money to make their countries richer.

half of Africa has moved to Europe.

Yet you want to stay, I reckon its Stockholm syndrome.

Funny that - a list of points all of which are factually incorrect and reveal more about the stupidity and paranoia of the poster than anything else.
Basically the problem with Brexiters is that, on the whole, they're thick as mince.

sasguru
15th October 2017, 10:36
Great article by Michael: :D

Brexit failing (http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/866583/brexit-eu-european-union-philip-hammond-michael-heseltine-marxism-michel-barnier)

Indeed. Like Marxist economic theory, Brexit must be implemented at whatever cost, economically.
The Tory far right (and UKIP) are no different to the Labour far left.
Both have a religious zeal for their ideas, anyone who disagrees and wants to pursue a pragmatic middle of the road strategy is a "saboteur" or "traitor".
The language is a dead giveaway, Brexiters are now using identical language to Lenin in early 20th century.

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 10:39
Indeed. Like Marxist economic theory, Brexit must be implemented at whatever cost, economically.
The Tory far right (and UKIP) are no different to the Labour far left.
Both have a religious zeal for their ideas, anyone who disagrees and wants to pursue a pragmatic middle of the road strategy is a "saboteur" or "traitor".
The language is a dead giveaway, Brexiters are now using identical language to Lenin in early 20th century.

indeed.

Hartley-Brewer SAVAGES Hammond's 'treasonous' assault on Brexit | UK | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/866422/Brexit-news-Julia-Hartley-Brewer-Philip-Hammond-UK-EU-deal)

:D

darmstadt
15th October 2017, 10:44
The sinister side of Brexit is that despite the EU lying about becoming a Superstate with its own Army & government, with a little bit of luck we will get German police (admittedly we need to improve their handling of sex offences) or UK police not the spanish (more on them later).

They have publicly gone on record saying they want to punish us for having the audacity for leaving.

We can assume the punishment beatings will continue. Seems Bojo was right months ago and the Spanish proved it.

The EU has caused some of our worst food scares.

Many countries ignore the rules and illegally favour their own business. Plenty of countries in the EU are considered world leaders at corruption.

Half of Eastern Europe has moved here to hold the wages down and repatriate money to make their countries richer.

half of Africa has moved to Europe.

Yet you want to stay, I reckon its Stockholm syndrome.


Funny that - a list of points all of which are factually incorrect and reveal more about the stupidity and paranoia of the poster than anything else.
Basically the problem with Brexiters is that, on the whole, they're thick as mince.

Going to have to agree with sas on that one. Maybe vetran would like to back up all of his statements with real facts rather than posting a Daily Mail link?

sasguru
15th October 2017, 10:46
indeed.

Hartley-Brewer SAVAGES Hammond's 'treasonous' assault on Brexit | UK | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/866422/Brexit-news-Julia-Hartley-Brewer-Philip-Hammond-UK-EU-deal)

:D

Feck me the Express has become worse than Pravda at its peak.
Does that stupid bint even understand what "treason" is?
How on earth has Britain ended up this way? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 10:50
Support for Brexit draining away (http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/)


YouGov’s regular tracker on whether people think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union. 42% of people now think that Brexit was the right decision, 47% think it was the wrong decision. The five point lead for “wrong” is the highest that YouGov have shown in this question since they started tracking it after the referendum.

sasguru
15th October 2017, 11:02
Support for Brexit draining away (http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/)

Believe it or not I spoke to a Brexiter the other day who regrets his decision.
What's his solution? To vote for Corbyn since he'll help deal with the Brexit economic chaos.
Left me speechless.
Stupidity of that nature is too deep to be adequately comprehended.

bobspud
15th October 2017, 12:37
Support for Brexit draining away (http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/)

Any one think it’s odd that an impartial civil service is running polls about this?

The civil service don’t want to deal with this. It’s too hard.

vetran
15th October 2017, 12:42
Funny that - a list of points all of which are factually incorrect and reveal more about the stupidity and paranoia of the poster than anything else.
Basically the problem with Brexiters is that, on the whole, they're thick as mince.

ah I see the Bremainer Nah nah nah I'm not listening gambit....

good to see.

Which fact would you like to challenge?

1.The EU don't want a superstate, they didn't try to do it by stealth?
2. EU & Remainers didn't try to deny their ambitions for an army and political wing?
3. The EU didn't support Government sponsored Brutality in the Catalan elections?
4. Dutch Egg contamination (UK lion mark eggs are considered the safest in the world apparently), EU horse Beef
is a fantasy? etc.
5. Both France & Spain ignore certain regulations and follow protectionist methods. Germany just allows its car makers to blatantly lie.
6. International reports on corruption suggest Spain & Italy are in the top 20 countries for Corruption.
7. Millions from the EU mainly from Eastern Europe now live in the UK.
8. Even Merkel realises she has over done it when a far right party takes second place, France is the same.

sorry these must be alt facts .

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 12:42
Any one think it’s odd that an impartial civil service is running polls about this?

The civil service don’t want to deal with this. It’s too hard.

not to be confused with UKGov, YouGov is a private marketing co. which correctly predicted the GE,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouGov

doesn't look good, MP's are set to ensure "no deal" will not be an option, which basically means the UK will be frog marched by the EU into an indefinite transition deal which will continue until demographics produces a pro-EU majority.

:D

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 12:50
ah I see the Bremainer Nah nah nah I'm not listening gambit....

good to see.

Which fact would you like to challenge?

1.The EU don't want a superstate, they didn't try to do it by stealth?
2. EU & Remainers didn't try to deny their ambitions for an army and political wing?
3. The EU didn't support Government sponsored Brutality in the Catalan elections?
4. Dutch Egg contamination (UK lion mark eggs are considered the safest in the world apparently), EU horse Beef
is a fantasy? etc.
5. Both France & Spain ignore certain regulations and follow protectionist methods. Germany just allows its car makers to blatantly lie.
6. International reports on corruption suggest Spain & Italy are in the top 20 countries for Corruption.
7. Millions from the EU mainly from Eastern Europe now live in the UK.
8. Even Merkel realises she has over done it when a far right party takes second place, France is the same.

sorry these must be alt facts .

The UK is leaving the EU so it will never be part of a superstate. However it is now abundantly clear that the UK will be an "appendage" and EU laws and regulations will be rammed down its throat for the forseeable future. This is far worse than being part of a Superstate where the UK could vote all the laws down if it so choosed to, as basically the UK will become a Satellite state of the EU rather like Puerto Rico. Parliament will spend most of its time having huge rows with a small Euro-sceptic rump about the laws and regulations they will be forced to swallow.

:D

Bee
15th October 2017, 13:23
The sinister side of Brexit is that despite the EU lying about becoming a Superstate with its own Army & government, with a little bit of luck we will get German police (admittedly we need to improve their handling of sex offences) or UK police not the spanish (more on them later).

They have publicly gone on record saying they want to punish us for having the audacity for leaving.

We can assume the punishment beatings will continue. Seems Bojo was right months ago and the Spanish proved it.

The EU has caused some of our worst food scares.

Many countries ignore the rules and illegally favour their own business. Plenty of countries in the EU are considered world leaders at corruption.

Half of Eastern Europe has moved here to hold the wages down and repatriate money to make their countries richer.

half of Africa has moved to Europe.

Yet you want to stay, I reckon its Stockholm syndrome.

This is a bunch of crap, bulltulip. :spank:

vetran
15th October 2017, 13:27
This is a bunch of crap, bulltulip. :spank:

ah you work for the Spanish Police!!

Bee
15th October 2017, 13:32
ah you work for the Spanish Police!!

More crap. :spank: :p

vetran
15th October 2017, 13:34
The UK is leaving the EU so it will never be part of a superstate. However it is now abundantly clear that the UK will be an "appendage" and EU laws and regulations will be rammed down its throat for the forseeable future. This is far worse than being part of a Superstate where the UK could vote all the laws down if it so choosed to, as basically the UK will become a Satellite state of the EU rather like Puerto Rico. Parliament will spend most of its time having huge rows with a small Euro-sceptic rump about the laws and regulations they will be forced to swallow.

:D

Well we would of had no choice about being part of the superstate if the UK or EU politicians had had their way.

I'll defer to your expertise about receiving a throat ramming but the way it seems to be going with the EU punishment beatings etc. we will be on WTO rules so no pole choking.

vetran
15th October 2017, 13:36
More crap. :spank: :p

pull my hair as well!

Catalonian independence referendum: Video shows Spanish police hurling voters down stairs and snatching ballot boxes | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/panish-police-hurling-voters-down-stairs-and-snatching-ballot-boxes-a7976721.html)

makes you proud to be in the EU doesn't it?

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 13:46
Well we would of had no choice about being part of the superstate if the UK or EU politicians had had their way.

I'll defer to your expertise about receiving a throat ramming but the way it seems to be going with the EU punishment beatings etc. we will be on WTO rules so no pole choking.

You're absolutely right is that a "no deal" is the only realistic option for Brexit, however a parliamentary rebellion is brewing:

Marr SAVAGES McDonnell's cross-party effort to THWART Brexit | UK | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/866645/Brexit-news-BBC-Andrew-Marr-John-McDonnell-Labour-Party-Conservative-Party)

In other words the UK will have EU laws, including freedom of movement, rammed down their throat, probably indefinitely.

Bee
15th October 2017, 13:53
pull my hair as well!

Catalonian independence referendum: Video shows Spanish police hurling voters down stairs and snatching ballot boxes | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/panish-police-hurling-voters-down-stairs-and-snatching-ballot-boxes-a7976721.html)

makes you proud to be in the EU doesn't it?

Shame for Spain not EU.
EU is a group of countries, not one super state. :spank:

SueEllen
15th October 2017, 13:56
You're absolutely right is that a "no deal" is the only realistic option for Brexit, however a parliamentary rebellion is brewing:

Marr SAVAGES McDonnell's cross-party effort to THWART Brexit | UK | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/866645/Brexit-news-BBC-Andrew-Marr-John-McDonnell-Labour-Party-Conservative-Party)

In other words the UK will have EU laws, including freedom of movement, rammed down their throat, probably indefinitely.

If the UK implemented freedom of movement properly we wouldn't be in this mess.

vetran
15th October 2017, 14:20
Shame for Spain not EU.
EU is a group of countries, not one super state. :spank:

The EU has not denounced it! Its intention is to become a superstate so if it can't manage this they are stuffed.

vetran
15th October 2017, 14:21
If the UK implemented freedom of movement properly we wouldn't be in this mess.

Yes we would still be marching towards a superstate without any vote.

sasguru
15th October 2017, 14:40
The EU has not denounced it! .

Yes that's because it's an internal Spanish matter.
Are you really so thick that you don't see this undermines your claim that the EU is a superstate?
Because if they were your non-existent EU army and fantasy EU police would have been deployed to Catalonia:laugh:laugh:laugh

sasguru
15th October 2017, 14:42
Yes we would still be marching towards a superstate without any vote.

Why? Would they have killed our MEPs and sent panzers to London? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
The scary thing is that people like you have bred.

vetran
15th October 2017, 14:46
Yes that's because it's an internal Spanish matter.
Are you really so thick that you don't see this undermines your claim that the EU is a superstate?
Because if they were your non-existent EU army and fantasy EU police would have been deployed to Catalonia:laugh:laugh:laugh

Its Drunker's army not mine.

vetran
15th October 2017, 14:48
Why? Would they have killed our MEPs and sent panzers to London? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
The scary thing is that people like you have bred.

no they would continue to avoid a vote.

sasguru
15th October 2017, 14:49
Its Drunker's army not mine.

So anyway I guess with your blind hatred of the EU, you're hoping for a hard Brexit, right?

Bee
15th October 2017, 16:44
The EU has not denounced it! Its intention is to become a superstate so if it can't manage this they are stuffed.

Oh, come on!!!! Are you serious!!!! :laugh

Bee
15th October 2017, 16:50
Yes that's because it's an internal Spanish matter.
Are you really so thick that you don't see this undermines your claim that the EU is a superstate?
Because if they were your non-existent EU army and fantasy EU police would have been deployed to Catalonia:laugh:laugh:laugh

EU should become veteran's fantasy true and declare the Brexit referendum illegal. :laugh

AtW
15th October 2017, 17:16
EU should become veteran's fantasy true and declare the Brexit referendum illegal. :laugh

It was not legally binding referendum, no legal reason to implement the result (which in itself too minor majority even if it wasn't achieved by fraud)

vetran
15th October 2017, 17:40
So anyway I guess with your blind hatred of the EU, you're hoping for a hard Brexit, right?

Blind hatred? Nope informed opinion, we need to be punished apparently, the EU is not willing to compromise and is more interested in us paying their Bar bill.

No unlike you I don't constantly worry about having something hard.

I am rather hoping the EU will discuss things and we will do the best for everyone but I don't expect that to happen

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 18:07
I see David Davis will be "walking the walk" and "talking the talk" in Brussels next week.

David Davis to grovel in Brussels next week (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-david-davis-brussels-eu-summit-emergency-theresa-may-divorce-bill-a8001996.html)

:D

sasguru
15th October 2017, 18:16
No unlike you I don't constantly worry about having something hard.



Not worried at all.
Just angry with your stupidity.

vetran
15th October 2017, 18:41
Not worried at all.
Just angry with your stupidity.

ah you define stupidity as not agreeing with you!

I imagine you find the whole world stupid. Unfortunately the feeling is mutual.

vetran
15th October 2017, 18:43
I see David Davis will be "walking the walk" and "talking the talk" in Brussels next week.

David Davis to grovel in Brussels next week (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-david-davis-brussels-eu-summit-emergency-theresa-may-divorce-bill-a8001996.html)

:D

you don't think that us having to beg for them to be reasonable shows them in a bad light?

darmstadt
15th October 2017, 18:47
you don't think that us having to beg for them to be reasonable shows them in a bad light?

Nope, it shows a sign of weakness



1 :to creep with the face to the ground :crawl
2
a :to lie or creep with the body prostrate in token of subservience or abasement groveled at the feet of the king
b :to abase oneself - would not grovel for political advantage
3 :to give oneself over to what is base or unworthy

1 :to kneel, lie, or crawl on the ground (as in fear)
2 :to act toward someone in a weak or humble way

vetran
15th October 2017, 18:52
Nope, it shows a sign of weakness

:whoosh:

Tomorrow belongs to EU

maybe a new anthem?

bobspud
15th October 2017, 19:22
Anyone noticed that the EU have just caused a surge in rice prices by effectively banning the largest producer from importing their wares due to pushing for stringent chemical regulations.

darmstadt
15th October 2017, 20:07
:whoosh:

Tomorrow belongs to EU

maybe a new anthem?

With the UK still in the EU there is still time for you to emigrate: ′Putin′s friends′ in Austria′s right-wing FPÖ achieve strong election result | Europe | DW | 15.10.2017 (http://www.dw.com/en/putins-friends-in-austrias-right-wing-fp%C3%B6-achieve-strong-election-result/a-40960928)

Paddy
15th October 2017, 20:16
Anyone noticed that the EU have just caused a surge in rice prices by effectively banning the largest producer from importing their wares due to pushing for stringent chemical regulations.

If this is true, it will be a good thing (I am not bothering to Google it).

Rice is one of the worst forms of contaminated foods. It is either saturated with chemicals or it
is saturated deadly bacteria from human and animal poo that drains into the paddy fields. This is the reason why rice should never be reheated and the main cause sickness after eating curries from restaurants.

Enjoy your takeaway tonight.


https://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/3708179/408251074/stock-photo-bali-indonesia-april-household-rubbish-and-plastic-bags-contaminate-rice-fields-and-408251074.jpg

darmstadt
15th October 2017, 20:17
Anyone noticed that the EU have just caused a surge in rice prices by effectively banning the largest producer from importing their wares due to pushing for stringent chemical regulations.

If you do a Google search for this it seems only the right wing anti-EU media are reporting it and primarily in relation to the fact it will make your curry more expensive :laugh However they didn't seem to report it fully or properly:


Both parties recognised the importance of trade in agricultural products in general, and rice in particular, and agreed to work together to resolve issues that have the potential of disrupting trade. With regard to import tolerance level of tricyclazole in rice (Commission Regulation (EU) 2017 / 983) the relevant plant protection companies will be invited to present new scientific data in order for the European Food Safety Authority to carry out an additional risk assessment without delay. On this basis, the European Commission would expeditiously consider whether to review the above mentioned Regulation. Both sides supported the early institutionalisation of cooperation between the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) and the Food Safety and Standards Authority of India (FSSAI), to focus on exchange of knowledge and expertise in the area of methodologies for data collection, risk assessment and risk communication. Furthermore, the EU and India have agreed to further strengthen their cooperation on food safety, notably by:

Strengthening existing dialogues like Agricultural and Marine Working Group, SPS-TBT Working Group to cover issues on food safety and agricultural trade between the relevant Indian ministries/departments and relevant European Commission services.

Initiating joint projects in areas such as good agricultural practices, development of traceability capacities, and cooperation in laboratory activities, including testing and monitoring.

The EU would welcome India's application for protection as a geographical indication of Basmati and shall process any such future application, as expeditiously as possible.
India welcomes EU's intention to expeditiously initiate the process of recognising additional seed varieties of Basmati rice under Article 28 of the GATT 1994 for duty derogation, as already requested by India.

They haven't actually banned imports have they? What has happened is that a lot of rice is now imported from Pakistan, Italy and Spain, all of who have tricyclazole in their rice and India has already reduced the amount in it's rice which is still being exported. All the EU have asked is for it to be reduced a bit more. However as the UK will shortly be self sufficient I would suggest that Maplin Sands could be turned into a rice growing area

darmstadt
15th October 2017, 21:03
The sinister side of Brexit is that despite the EU lying about becoming a Superstate with its own Army & government, with a little bit of luck we will get German police (admittedly we need to improve their handling of sex offences) or UK police not the spanish (more on them later).

They have publicly gone on record saying they want to punish us for having the audacity for leaving.

We can assume the punishment beatings will continue. Seems Bojo was right months ago and the Spanish proved it.

The EU has caused some of our worst food scares.

Many countries ignore the rules and illegally favour their own business. Plenty of countries in the EU are considered world leaders at corruption.

Half of Eastern Europe has moved here to hold the wages down and repatriate money to make their countries richer.

half of Africa has moved to Europe.

Yet you want to stay, I reckon its Stockholm syndrome.

Don't give up your day job yet...

https://scontent.ftxl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20638320_1552947411435079_5051364846927296354_n.jp g?oh=293587ac41e7afaabc664bce443764ba&oe=5A797356

BlasterBates
15th October 2017, 21:36
Brexit voters to be 300 pounds worse off because of Brexit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/austerity-benefit-freeze-brexit-inflation-lower-income-squeeze-a8001281.html)

You get what you vote for

motoukenin
16th October 2017, 07:41
Anyone noticed that the EU have just caused a surge in rice prices by effectively banning the largest producer from importing their wares due to pushing for stringent chemical regulations.

I think the UK will enjoy Tricyclazol rice with chlorinated chicken, goes well with the be Benzonated peas.

motoukenin
16th October 2017, 07:45
Brexit voters to be 300 pounds worse off because of Brexit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/austerity-benefit-freeze-brexit-inflation-lower-income-squeeze-a8001281.html)

You get what you vote for

Yes but Brexit voters also know that thousands of Japanese tourists buying animated souvenirs of Prince Philip having his trousers fall down and blowing God Save the Queen out its arse will soon trickle down to lower food prices and a reduced mortgage rate, so they will be OK.

sasguru
16th October 2017, 07:57
Anyone noticed that the EU have just caused a surge in rice prices by effectively banning the largest producer from importing their wares due to pushing for stringent chemical regulations.

So you'd rather have chemicals in your rice?
Astonishing, I thought you were just a common or garden cretin, but you seem to actually be a complete retard.

sasguru
16th October 2017, 08:05
you don't think that us having to beg for them to be reasonable shows them in a bad light?

A few months ago Brexiters were saying we had the upper hand.
Now they're moaning that the EU is being unreasonable.:laugh
It's a negotiaition FFS. DO you know what that is?
It's their job to get as much as they can from us, just as we would if the boot was on the other foot.
Fact is that you Brexiters, because you're a bit thick, shit at maths and live a dream world of Empire redux, completely over-rated Britain's strength economically and politically.
But most of all you overrated the competence of our ruling party who couldn't arrange a piss-up in a brewery.

BrilloPad
16th October 2017, 08:12
It's their job to get as much as they can from us

No! Its there job to punish the UK.

BlasterBates
16th October 2017, 08:21
The British voters, voted to punish the EU, by saying they want to have access to the EU without paying a penny, and basically then sent their Foreign Secretary who proceeded to travel all Europe "shouting" insults at the Europeans.

Now the EU is going to kick the Britain up the backside.

:D

BrilloPad
16th October 2017, 08:23
The British voters, voted to punish the EU, by saying they want to have access to the EU without paying a penny, and basically then sent their foreign secretary who proceeded to travel all Europe "shouting" insults at the Europeans.

Now the EU is going to kick the Britain up the backside.

:D

Strange as I remember only Yes and No as options.

If there was a 3rd option it should have been "give DC a kicking".

sasguru
16th October 2017, 08:31
No! Its there job to punish the UK.

Quite possibly, yes, pour l'encourager les autres.
That's their prerogative, we're the ones who've left.
The maths says they can take the hit better than we can - the German companies have already planned for a rock hard Brexit.
It's called realpolitik, welcome to the real world, if you can abandon la-la land for a moment.

motoukenin
16th October 2017, 08:31
WBSS - I think we should pay but only when what the right amount to pay has been decided. What they want us to pay and what we are obliged to pay are likely to be very different amounts. Let the lawyers battle that one out. That is going to prolong the process though and if the EU are saying they won't discuss trade until that is sorted then it is them holding up the process, not us. The divorce bill needs to be confirmed, yes, but to stall everything else until that has been agreed seems a silly way to do it.

The EU have been very clear that they do not want us to get a good deal as it will encourage other countries to do the same. Don't listen to the chatter and sound bites around the stories, look at the overall intentions and how the "news" is tailored to push towards desired outcomes.

The EU are making themselves look petty at present with their one liners and this feeds into glee in the remain camp that the government are a bunch of confused, bumbling baboons. I still have faith in them to work out a way around these issues. Call me a misguided fool if you want but I am still happy to be working towards getting out. My only concern is that the EU will stuff this up enough for another gov to get in here and call another referendum giving a route back in to the EU.

As for the OP on this post I totally agree with what Mr Dolan said, in or out will make very little difference to the less well off here. Same with Labour and the tuition fees, the youth loved them for that but do not realise they will just end up paying more in other taxes when they are older, misguided dolts that they are. The country giveth, and the country taketh away.


So you and Mr Dolan don't believe that the vote for Brexit has made the less well worse off ? There is nothing complicated about inflation going from 0.6% to 2.9% over the period before we decided to leave to now, making things more expensive for the less well off, even Shaunboy understands that.

Or maybe you don't believe that Brexit was responsible for this ? Then you would be wrong again, inflation is caused by rising prices and as we import so much of our food , oil , clothes , TV sets etc. and all of these are more expensive because the pound is worth 20% less and hence prices of things have gone up and so has inflation.

And what made the pound worth so much less, Brexit just look at the exchange against all currencies the day after.

Another Myth debunked , Brexit has not made the less well off worse.

The nurse reference only came about as Cojak seemed to be agreeing with the people who wanted everyone to feel their pain which was the OP , and I just happen to know one back in the UK who has asked me to borrow her a few quid to help out , so while I am about it I will debunk the "I want the rich to suffer" myth as well.

As said before imports which most of us do via Tesco, Lidl , Aldi etc. have cost more, Exports which most of us don't do have made money, and tons of it for wealthy bankers, investors and quite simply the rich. Look at the FTSE 100 which are mostly exporting companies and see how much money has been put into that, its made very rich people richer , and how do I know that ? because I had my nose in that trough as well , I only made just over 70K but for the rich it was in the millions. I know people in the finance industry now that are just hoping for no deal and making the pound drop even further.

So second Myth debunked , The rich won't get richer.

As for making a deal then,like you, I hope so as well but that is all down to HM Gov stumping up a lot more than 20 Billion, after all the EU will want to make that painful , its not an exact figure just one that sounds very painful to all the other EU countries.

original PM
16th October 2017, 08:39
The most sinister side of Brexit from where I am sat is the ability of some people to focus solely on 'how much money they may or may not get because of Brexit and absolutely nothing else'

The financial markets will always grow and shrink and some people will be better off and some people will be worse off.

It seems that in order to 'protect' their finances they are willing to be ruled over by anyone who promises them their finances will not be affected and they will continue to get rich.

sasguru
16th October 2017, 08:43
The most sinister side of Brexit from where I am sat is the ability of some people to focus solely on 'how much money they may or may not get because of Brexit and absolutely nothing else'

The financial markets will always grow and shrink and some people will be better off and some people will be worse off.

It seems that in order to 'protect' their finances they are willing to be ruled over by anyone who promises them their finances will not be affected and they will continue to get rich.

In front of your mum's PC?
It's to do with keeping Britain's power and status, as well as wealth, in the world and not turning into some miserable backwater.
A poor country cannot afford to defend itself, simple as that.
You're a public sector permie, do you think money grows on trees?

vetran
16th October 2017, 21:51
Quite possibly, yes, pour l'encourager les autres.
That's their prerogative, we're the ones who've left.
The maths says they can take the hit better than we can - the German companies have already planned for a rock hard Brexit.
It's called realpolitik, welcome to the real world, if you can abandon la-la land for a moment.

Amusingly enough from a Frenchman who escaped to the UK to avoid persecution in France. An odd choice to support your belief that the EU is a good choice. Talking about the reasons Britons ruled the waves.


Medieval Spanish Catholics for tolerance & openness in religion, French & Russian support for Royalty. You heard it worst & first from Assguru.


No Ass & co its called desperation as the EU realises the game is up.

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 06:45
Amusingly enough from a Frenchman who escaped to the UK to avoid persecution in France. An odd choice to support your belief that the EU is a good choice. Talking about the reasons Britons ruled the waves.


Amusingly enough the Frenchman was satirising the British for executing Admiral Byng.


Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres.

sasguru
17th October 2017, 07:08
its called desperation as the EU realises the game is up.

Yeah that's why Juncker came to London yesterday on a desperate attempt to get a breakthrough on the talks.

OH wait ....

Like i said you have to abandon la la land. It's going to happen sometime even for complete boneheads like you

original PM
17th October 2017, 07:09
Yeah that's why Juncker came to London yesterday on a desperate attempt to get a breakthrough on the talks.

OH wait ....

We went to see them because they refuse to come out of their play pen and talk to the adults.

It's shame we have to but there you go just really confirms that leave was the best option.

sasguru
17th October 2017, 07:13
We went to see them because they refuse to come out of their play pen and talk to the adults.



Actually , you thick child, they're following the 2 stage plan agreed by the weak David Davies on the first day of the talks.

And you need to get over yourself. The Uk isn't that important. The Germans are busy forming a govt. No one actually gives a tulip we're leaving very much any more.

BlasterBates
17th October 2017, 07:15
Congratulations to the EU who appear to have gained the upper hand even though the cards are stacked against them.

I think we can all agree on that.

:D

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 07:18
Yeah that's why Juncker came to London yesterday on a desperate attempt to get a breakthrough on the talks.

OH wait ....

Like i said you have to abandon la la land. It's going to happen sometime even for complete boneheads like you

But but but... That doesn't sound at all right. John Redwood cheaply stated:

Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation.

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 07:20
Actually , you thick child, they're following the 2 stage plan agreed by the weak David Davies on the first day of the talks.



There is going to be the row of the summer over this.

bobspud
17th October 2017, 07:58
Hey guys lets move the topic on to the fact that the Austrians just got a right wing government bordering on the Nazi party?

Hows that going to work out for the EU in the long run?

It seems to me that there is a common sentiment sweeping through Europe and its not very pretty...

We just need a facist in power in Italy and we have more or less lined up the same set of ideology issues that led to WW2 :suicide:

sasguru
17th October 2017, 08:08
Hey guys lets move the topic on to the fact that the Austrians just got a right wing government bordering on the Nazi party?

Hows that going to work out for the EU in the long run?

It seems to me that there is a common sentiment sweeping through Europe and its not very pretty...

We just need a facist in power in Italy and we have more or less lined up the same set of ideology issues that led to WW2 :suicide:

Why do you think the UK is immune?
Didn't UKIP have a speaker from AfD at their conference the other day?
Isn't Brexit really a nationalist spasm?
Or Trump in the US?
This is an issue of the West in decline and looking for easy answers, it's not at all specific to the EU.
And if a no deal hard Brexit causes economic chaos I can quite easily see a far right party eventually taking power here.

sasguru
17th October 2017, 08:12
Actually thinking about it the country most to be feared in terms of a rightward fascist lurch - in the matter of how it would affect us - is the US.
And it's happening just as we look like becioming the de facto 51st state, post Brexit.
I think the Europeans will always have their idiots, but due to what happened last time, the majority would think twice.
That's not the case in the US

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 08:12
Hey guys lets move the topic on to the fact that the Austrians just got a right wing government bordering on the Nazi party?

Hows that going to work out for the EU in the long run?

It seems to me that there is a common sentiment sweeping through Europe and its not very pretty...

We just need a facist in power in Italy and we have more or less lined up the same set of ideology issues that led to WW2 :suicide:

Most of the Brexiteers have been cheering on the Wilders / Le Pen fascists.

original PM
17th October 2017, 08:18
Why do you think the UK is immune?
Didn't UKIP have a speaker from AfD at their conference the other day?
Isn't Brexit really a nationalist spasm?
Or Trump in the US?
This is an issue of the West in decline and looking for easy answers, it's not at all specific to the EU.
And if a no deal hard Brexit causes economic chaos I can quite easily see a far right party eventually taking power here.

Millions of people invading your country and threatening your way of life is not a good thing.

And when the very people who are supposed to be protecting you are encouraging it then you would expect some form of backlash I would expect.

Would the migrant crisis in Europe have happened or if the first few boats were left to flounder and the people die?

If no politicians were waxing lyrical about immigrants being welcome in Europe ,would there have been the flood of people paying to be illegally trafficked to Europe if they knew they would be told to fook off upon arrival?

The fact is that a lot of the native europeans have been let down by their own government and the EU - you may possibly argue that the governments and EU were trying to do the right thing.

But then you could also argue that a parent who always gives in to their children when they have a tantrum are doing the right thing in that in the short term it stops the tantrum - but in the long term it instills the wrong sort of values and behaviour.

sasguru
17th October 2017, 08:19
Anyway the Austrians have always been fascist-inclined. Remember Jorg Haider in the 1990s - he got loads of votes too.

sasguru
17th October 2017, 08:21
Would the migrant crisis in Europe have happened or if the first few boats were left to flounder and the people die?

...you may possibly argue that the governments and EU were trying to do the right thing....

.... but in the long term it instills the wrong sort of values and behaviour.

So in your view the correct sort of behaviour is to let desperate people fleeing war flounder and die.
Interesting.

darmstadt
17th October 2017, 08:35
Speaking with some Austrians yesterday, you'll find that the party who won are very similar to the German CDU/CSU party which in turn is very similar to the UK Conservative party. Most people in the UK have absolutely no knowledge of European politics, or even Europe come to that, apart from what they read in a biased media which in turn has led to the situation that the UK is in now...

original PM
17th October 2017, 08:42
So in your view the correct sort of behaviour is to let desperate people fleeing war flounder and die.
Interesting.

Really and they were all fleeing war and not economic migrants then?

Lance
17th October 2017, 10:18
Really and they were all fleeing war and not economic migrants then?

you guys like it all black and white don't you. Makes it much easier to justify your opinion.

Maybe. Just maybe some are (it's still happening even if TwatFarage isn't on TV every day) economic migrants, some are fleeing war, some are fleeing criminal gangs, some are fleeing religious persecution, and some are terrorists coming here to blow us up.
Either way the answer isn't simple. In fact there isn't really an answer. We can't just let them drown. We can't just let them in. We can't fix where they are. We can't really do much other than work collectively, with as many groups around the world as possible to make everywhere a better place to live.

Twats who voted Brexit as a solution to this are thick as mince cupid stunts.

darmstadt
17th October 2017, 10:34
you guys like it all black and white don't you. Makes it much easier to justify your opinion.

Maybe. Just maybe some are (it's still happening even if TwatFarage isn't on TV every day) economic migrants, some are fleeing war, some are fleeing criminal gangs, some are fleeing religious persecution, and some are terrorists coming here to blow us up.
Either way the answer isn't simple. In fact there isn't really an answer. We can't just let them drown. We can't just let them in. We can't fix where they are. We can't really do much other than work collectively, with as many groups around the world as possible to make everywhere a better place to live.

Twats who voted Brexit as a solution to this are thick as mince cupid stunts.

Maybe all those criminals who fled some years ago to the Costa del Sol will have to return :eek:

AtW
17th October 2017, 11:06
Maybe all those criminals who fled some years ago to the Costa del Sol will have to return :eek:

Imagine how pissed off they will be :eek:

simondolan
17th October 2017, 12:24
you guys like it all black and white don't you. Makes it much easier to justify your opinion.

Maybe. Just maybe some are (it's still happening even if TwatFarage isn't on TV every day) economic migrants, some are fleeing war, some are fleeing criminal gangs, some are fleeing religious persecution, and some are terrorists coming here to blow us up.
Either way the answer isn't simple. In fact there isn't really an answer. We can't just let them drown. We can't just let them in. We can't fix where they are. We can't really do much other than work collectively, with as many groups around the world as possible to make everywhere a better place to live.


I think it fair to say that the people fleeing are in some way, shape or form wanting a better life. Who could criticise them for that - I for sure would do the same given the same circumstances. I am not so sure though that a small, overcrowded island needs to make itself so attractive?

sasguru
17th October 2017, 12:32
I think it fair to say that the people fleeing are in some way, shape or form wanting a better life. Who could criticise them for that - I for sure would do the same given the same circumstances. I am not so sure though that a small, overcrowded island needs to make itself so attractive?

Brexit will solve that :laugh:laugh:laugh

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 12:36
I think it fair to say that the people fleeing are in some way, shape or form wanting a better life. Who could criticise them for that - I for sure would do the same given the same circumstances. I am not so sure though that a small, overcrowded island needs to make itself so attractive?

Small overcrowded island? Surely it's all relative, Simon?

http://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10834290/officers



DOLAN, Simon James

Correspondence address
Palazzo Leonardo, 10 Avenue Des Ligures, Monaco, Monaco, 98000

Monaco has an area of 2.02 km² and a population density of 19,009 per km².

Great Britain has an area of 209,331 km² and a population density of 302 inhabitants per km².

Immigrants in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

simondolan
17th October 2017, 12:43
Small overcrowded island? Surely it's all relative, Simon?


Monaco has an area of 2.02 km² and a population density of 19,009 per km².

Great Britain has an area of 209,331 km² and a population density of 302 inhabitants per km².

Immigrants in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I'm not sure its entirely necessary to publish my full home address at every opportunity?

Nor am I sure of the point you are trying to make. Are you saying that until the UK population density reaches 19,000 per km2 people should be free to make their home there and be provided with the full range of benefits etc? You do know that'd be just under 4bn people living there?

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 12:46
I'm not sure its entirely necessary to publish my full home address at every opportunity?


It's a matter of public record Simon. Don't be so grumpy.



Nor am I sure of the point you are trying to make. Are you saying that until the UK population density reaches 19,000 per km2 people should be free to make their home there and be provided with the full range of benefits etc? You do know that'd be just under 4bn people living there?

I'm saying that the UK is not a small overcrowded island. The rest of your post is either a rhetorical question strawman, or a meaningless ramble, depending on how charitable one is being.

simondolan
17th October 2017, 12:51
It's a matter of public record Simon. Don't be so grumpy.

I'm saying that the UK is not a small overcrowded island. The rest of your post is either a rhetorical question strawman, or a meaningless ramble, depending on how charitable one is being.

And being a matter of public record its not necessary for you to publish on here ad nauseam.

As you said:

"Small overcrowded island? Surely it's all relative, Simon?"

Indeed. Which is why your comparison with Monaco was pointless. You may just as well have compared it to Greenland

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 12:57
And being a matter of public record its not necessary for you to publish on here ad nauseam.


Not necessary, of course, like much of what we post on General. :) But not a problem, either, presumably, as it's a matter of public record.


As you said:

"Small overcrowded island? Surely it's all relative, Simon?"

Indeed. Which is why your comparison with Monaco was pointless. You may just as well have compared it to Greenland

The comparison with Monaco is not pointless, but neither is it exhaustive or conclusive. All part of the merry banter of General conversation, Simon. Tell us why you think that Great Britain is a small and overcrowded island - they are your words, after all.

BlasterBates
17th October 2017, 12:59
This map shows that the notion of the UK being built up is more perception than reality. Only 6% of the country is actually built on.

A green and pleasant land: Map reveals more than half of Britain is countryside | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011692/A-green-pleasant-land-Map-reveals-half-Britain-countryside.html)

Plenty of open space in the UK.

I visit my sister in London and it certainly doesn't appear any more crowded than anywhere else I've lived and I've lived in quite a few countries.

The fact is if you actually get out of your car you'll find plenty of remote countryside on your doorstep wherever you live and that includes London which is mainly built up and down the Thames. Just a short step from the City and you're up on Shooters hill, where all you see is countryside. Fact is people drive around on roads. Roads are where settlements are built so of course if you drive around in a car you get the impression that Britain is "full".

simondolan
17th October 2017, 13:06
Simon. Tell us why you think that Great Britain is a small and overcrowded island - they are your words, after all.

This is a Brexit thread, so I assume we are talking about EU countries, of which the UK is the third most densely populated out of the 28. It also took in the second highest amount of migrants.

Does this help?

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 13:09
This map shows that the notion of the UK being built up is more perception than reality. Only 6% of the country is actually built on.

A green and pleasant land: Map reveals more than half of Britain is countryside | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011692/A-green-pleasant-land-Map-reveals-half-Britain-countryside.html)

Plenty of open space in the UK.

I visit my sister in London and it certainly doesn't appear any more crowded than anywhere else I've lived and I#ve lived in quite a few countries.

The fact is if you actually get out of your car you'll find plenty of remote countryside on your doorstep wherever you live and that includes London which is mainly built up and down the Thames. Just a short step from the City and you're up on Shooters hill, where all you see is countryside. Fact is people drive around on roads. Roads are where settlements are built so of course if you drive around in a car you get the impression that Britain is "full".

The 'small', 'overcrowded', 'full' nonsense is put forward to dodge debate IMO. Great Britain is the ninth largest island in the world. How is that a small island? 'Overcrowded' and 'full' are vague terms and hard to justify. London is certainly densely populated, but there is no attempt to stop inward migration from other parts of the UK. Yet rural Scotland is sparsely populated and there is an attempt to limit immigration there from overseas. You can't really assess Great Britain as a single 'lump' in this way.

milanbenes
17th October 2017, 13:10
This is a Brexit thread, so I assume we are talking about EU countries, of which the UK is the third most densely populated out of the 28. It also took in the second highest amount of migrants.

Does this help?

yes but Simon, Britain has been taking in migrants en masse going back to the 17th century, from the market in Corn Street to White Ladies Road and Black Boy Hill.

Hence we cannot for Britain, consider migration only in the context of the EU, Britain has been doing migration whole-sale en masse since it joined the slave trade in the 17th century.

Milan.

original PM
17th October 2017, 13:13
This map shows that the notion of the UK being built up is more perception than reality. Only 6% of the country is actually built on.

A green and pleasant land: Map reveals more than half of Britain is countryside | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011692/A-green-pleasant-land-Map-reveals-half-Britain-countryside.html)

Plenty of open space in the UK.

I visit my sister in London and it certainly doesn't appear any more crowded than anywhere else I've lived and I've lived in quite a few countries.

The fact is if you actually get out of your car you'll find plenty of remote countryside on your doorstep wherever you live and that includes London which is mainly built up and down the Thames. Just a short step from the City and you're up on Shooters hill, where all you see is countryside. Fact is people drive around on roads. Roads are where settlements are built so of course if you drive around in a car you get the impression that Britain is "full".

There is significantly more open available space in Africa than in the UK.

Just there is no free stuff there.

Lance
17th October 2017, 13:15
There is significantly more open available space in Africa than in the UK.

Just there is no free stuff there.

Citation needed.
And don’t include deserts or protected national parks where people aren’t allowed to move to.

You’ve not been there have you?

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 13:15
This is a Brexit thread, so I assume we are talking about EU countries, of which the UK is the third most densely populated out of the 28. It also took in the second highest amount of migrants.

Does this help?

Not really, Simon. By all means narrow it down to '...within the context of EU members' if you wish, but how does 'third most densely populated in EU' (is that correct - Malta, Netherlands, Belgium? small point I know), which is a statement of fact, equate to 'overcrowded', which is a value judgment?

'It also took in the second highest amount of migrants' obviously impacts on the net population change, but that doesn't help define 'small and overcrowded'.

BlasterBates
17th October 2017, 13:20
There is significantly more open available space in Africa than in the UK.

Just there is no free stuff there.

What is interesting is that you could easily find a job in Yorkshire and/or Wales where there are huge swathes of open space but I very much suspect you wouldn't go there, because if you live in a place full of open space it is as boring as hell.

This talk about open space is a meaningless slogan.

bobspud
17th October 2017, 14:37
What is interesting is that you could easily find a job in Yorkshire and/or Wales where there are huge swathes of open space but I very much suspect you wouldn't go there, because if you live in a place full of open space it is as boring as hell.

This talk about open space is a meaningless slogan.

Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 14:49
Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...



You need to consider the lump of labour fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy#Immigration). Immigrants come into an area and don't simply displace other workers, but grow the economy, creating more jobs. A simple example, if a country of 70,000,000 had 3,500,000 unemployed and 3,500,000 people with jobs left the country, that would not solve unemployment. Of course, that does not mean that impacts do not vary locally.

In terms of outsourcing and immigration, what sits behind this is globalisation. 1950's UK enjoyed (as did other European and North American countries) the advantages of captive markets created by the suppression of industry in the developing world, either through colonialism or 'unequal treaties'. That advantage has gone and the UK et al must compete with China et al. Regrettably, the era when a working class male industrial wage could bring up a family decently in an owned home, with a final salary pension at the end (as my Dad managed) are over. A high wage economy is unlikely to be the solution, and that is a tough message to sell. But trashing the economy with Brexit is not going to help.

bobspud
17th October 2017, 15:00
You need to consider the lump of labour fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy#Immigration). Immigrants come into an area and don't simply displace other workers, but grow the economy, creating more jobs. A simple example, if a country of 70,000,000 had 3,500,000 unemployed and 3,500,000 people with jobs left the country, that would not solve unemployment. Of course, that does not mean that impacts do not vary locally.

In terms of outsourcing and immigration, what sits behind this is globalisation. 1950's UK enjoyed (as did other European and North American countries) the advantages of captive markets created by the suppression of industry in the developing world, either through colonialism or 'unequal treaties'. That advantage has gone and the UK et al must compete with China et al. Regrettably, the era when a working class male industrial wage could bring up a family decently in an owned home, with a final salary pension at the end (as my Dad managed) are over. A high wage economy is unlikely to be the solution, and that is a tough message to sell. But trashing the economy with Brexit is not going to help.

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

sasguru
17th October 2017, 15:04
So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

The biggest problem in the West is what to do with the 52% of people of below average intelligence in an economy that pays highly only for strong cognitive skills or entrepreneurship. But withdrawing from the world only makes the problem worse.

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 15:05
So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

What a strawman that is! Globalisation is a tough challenge, but the West can no longer suppress industrial production in developing countries as it did in imperial times. Effective responses to the challenge are possible but complex. However, chucking petrol on the fire because we have to do something won't help.

Footnote: the Civil War and execution of Charles I did not occur in the Middle Ages.

Lance
17th October 2017, 15:18
The biggest problem in the West is what to do with the 52% of people of below average intelligence in an economy that pays highly only for strong cognitive skills or entrepreneurship. But withdrawing from the world only makes the problem worse.

52% below average?
Citation needed.

sasguru
17th October 2017, 15:20
52% below average?
Citation needed.

EU Referendum Results - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results) :tongue
Yes I do know about the Gaussian and how it works ...

BlasterBates
17th October 2017, 15:24
Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...

Barriers won't work, you have to compete in global markets. In any case businesses don't simply pay the lowest wage they can get away with. There are numerous academic studies to show that simply isn't the case.

One thing I can guarantee is that the people who voted Brexit because they thought foreigners were stealing their jobs will be a lot worse off.

As Norman Tebbit says they need to get off their fat backsides, get themselves some training and get a decent job instead whining. Margaret Thatcher would have called them moaning minnies. :D

Lance
17th October 2017, 15:28
EU Referendum Results - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results) :tongue
Yes I do know about the Gaussian and how it works ...

Brilliant.
I slipped into the 52% briefly there....

Lance
17th October 2017, 15:30
Barriers won't work, you have to compete in global markets. In any case businesses don't simply pay the lowest wage they can get away with. There are numerous academic studies to show that simply isn't the case.

One thing I can guarantee is that the people who voted Brexit because they thought foreigners were stealing their jobs will be a lot worse off.

As Norman Tebbit says they need to get off their fat backsides, get themselves some training and get a decent job instead whining. Margaret Thatcher would have called them moaning minnies. :D

I actually wish Thatcher was still around at the moment (first time ever). She’d end this debacle. And Corbyn would be toast.

BlasterBates
17th October 2017, 15:40
Looks like Brexit no deal is now completely off the table, which was the only slither of hope left for a real Brexit.

Brexit no deal not possible (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/amber-rudd-brexit-no-deal-tory-split-conservative-home-secretary-boris-johnson-theresa-may-a8005181.html)

There will be lots of gnashing of teeth and then the UK will cave into whatever demands the EU have made.

Not only will it be a sh*te deal the EU will probably drag their heels which will maximise damage to the UK as companies flee the uncertainty of how sh*te the deal is going to be.

BlasterBates
17th October 2017, 15:49
So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

You say there is no work for the lower classes, but there are plenty of jobs and if a company puts an advert in the paper for someone in the lower classes for example to work on a fruit farm or work in a factory no-one applies, and therein lies the problem that the lower classes no longer exist except in the idealised world of the Brexiteer.

northernladyuk
17th October 2017, 15:50
The biggest problem in the West is what to do with the 52% of people of below average intelligence in an economy that pays highly only for strong cognitive skills or entrepreneurship. But withdrawing from the world only makes the problem worse.

It is sufficient intelligence that matters, not average, within this context.

OwlHoot
17th October 2017, 16:15
I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. ...

It wasn't the poor who started the civil war in the 1640s, assuming that's what you were referring to, or any previous civil wars (besides the Peasant's Revolt, which wasn't a war as such).

It was mainly King Charles struggling to obtain funds to fight the Dutch, who were muscling in on our trade here there and everywhere, and prosperous MPs refusing to vote the funds.

No doubt that is a gross over-simplification, and it's true King Charles was chronically insensitive, unreliable, and lacking in judgement in his dealings with parliament.

But it's true that people who have no stake in society, in the form of property ownership, feel they have little to lose and maybe something to gain by "shaking the tree" as it were.

So, as well as obviously increasing inequality, reducing rates of home ownership increases potential social instability.

original PM
17th October 2017, 16:55
Barriers won't work, you have to compete in global markets. In any case businesses don't simply pay the lowest wage they can get away with. There are numerous academic studies to show that simply isn't the case.

One thing I can guarantee is that the people who voted Brexit because they thought foreigners were stealing their jobs will be a lot worse off.

As Norman Tebbit says they need to get off their fat backsides, get themselves some training and get a decent job instead whining. Margaret Thatcher would have called them moaning minnies. :D

So a global market.

So I should be able to contact any company in the world and buy their product without interference then?