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tvr450
29th March 2018, 03:42
Hi folks, I have been watching with interest the new IR35 rules in the public service. No doubt it will soon be in the private sector as well.

My thoughts are that surely if you take a contract and the business/agency insist it is inside IR35 then you just need to ensure you work the contract diligently OUTSIDE IR35, keeping lots of evidence of working practise, control, MOO etc.

After the contract ends, you put in an appeal to hector, using all your gathered evidence and get a nice refund in your bench time? I would not be surprised if QDOS or others set up a fixed fee service to do this for you, giving in advance exactly what you must collect during the contract to prove your case (I’ll just take 10% for new cases for my idea QDos).

Thoughts?

northernladuk
29th March 2018, 06:39
Can I have some of what you are drinking please?

WordIsBond
29th March 2018, 06:39
A. The client will be completely unhelpful in what they say when HMRC investigates. It becomes in their interest to show that they made the call correctly, and they will choose what they say accordingly. These cases will be much more difficult to win.
B. The fee payer will have reduced your fee to account for the fact that they have to pay Employer NI. You aren't getting that money back.

But if you get a contract like you've described, by all means go for it.

northernladyuk
29th March 2018, 07:10
Hi folks, I have been watching with interest the new IR35 rules in the public service. No doubt it will soon be in the private sector as well.

My thoughts are that surely if you take a contract and the business/agency insist it is inside IR35 then you just need to ensure you work the contract diligently OUTSIDE IR35, keeping lots of evidence of working practise, control, MOO etc.

After the contract ends, you put in an appeal to hector, using all your gathered evidence and get a nice refund in your bench time? I would not be surprised if QDOS or others set up a fixed fee service to do this for you, giving in advance exactly what you must collect during the contract to prove your case (I’ll just take 10% for new cases for my idea QDos).

Thoughts?

Why would HMRC pay YourCo the value of NIC and income tax payments?

MrButton
29th March 2018, 07:18
I think QDOS would be happy to give you more than 10% of the profits made from this idea.

northernladuk
29th March 2018, 07:19
Can this be moved to General?

Hobosapien
29th March 2018, 07:47
This idea may have more legs if you were caught by a blanket 'inside IR35' determination.

Saw news somewhere of MP's going to investigate public sector use of blanket determinations, so there may be a chance they cause a re-evaluation of those contracts and potentially a status change to outside IR35 and appropriate compo. :smokin

LondonManc
29th March 2018, 08:05
Never try and get your money back after you've paid it rather than not giving it beforehand.

It won't be in private sector interests to do blanket inside declarations, so I cannot see that happening. Hector is hammering contractors because they can't attack the corporations - the idea is that Hector see big businesses as using contractors to avoid paying business NICs. This is just a side benefit to our clients - their main benefits are that they, in theory, get a team of experience, skilled grafters who are less hassle than permies and far cheaper than consultants. If it turns out that you interviewed far better than you actually are, they can bin you off at a moment's notice with a BS excuse in the contract to save paying you notice. They can also enforce furlough or rate cut to help juggle the end of year figures a bit. Business NICs is literally the last thing on a client's mind in this, yet Hector seems to see it as the hot potato rather than the elephant in the room. As a result, they can't go after the clients, so hammer the contractors.

psychocandy
29th March 2018, 08:13
OP let me get this right. So PS client declares the role Inside IR35 but you're hoping to appeal this afterwards?

How on earth is this going to work? If asked by HMRC, client is going to say "Well we declared it inside because of X, Y and X". HMRC are hardly likely to say "Ok mr contractor despite the client saying this we're going to believe you that it didnt happen like that".

If its a PS Inside IR35 role I'm afraid the only option is to take it on its merits with regards to the extra tax and no expenses (and having to go umbrella). If its worth it take it, if not avoid it.

LondonManc
29th March 2018, 08:15
OP let me get this right. So PS client declares the role Inside IR35 but you're hoping to appeal this afterwards?

How on earth is this going to work? If asked by HMRC, client is going to say "Well we declared it inside because of X, Y and X". HMRC are hardly likely to say "Ok mr contractor despite the client saying this we're going to believe you that it didnt happen like that".

If its a PS Inside IR35 role I'm afraid the only option is to take it on its merits with regards to the extra tax and no expenses (and having to go umbrella). If its worth it take it, if not avoid it.

You know you're screwed when pc declares you inside IR35 :spank::spank:

Hobosapien
29th March 2018, 08:22
One of the benefits of being ruled inside IR35 is the lack of stress of potentially being investigated by HMRC at some time in the future. Worth it if you offset most/all of the 'inside IR35' overhead by significant rate uplift. :smokin

So to plan on requesting that investigation from HMRC on the zero to slim off-chance of overturning the decision is bonkers. Not my kind of extreme sport that's for sure.

psychocandy
29th March 2018, 09:04
One of the benefits of being ruled inside IR35 is the lack of stress of potentially being investigated by HMRC at some time in the future. Worth it if you offset most/all of the 'inside IR35' overhead by significant rate uplift. :smokin

So to plan on requesting that investigation from HMRC on the zero to slim off-chance of overturning the decision is bonkers. Not my kind of extreme sport that's for sure.

EXACTLY. Take it on its merits like any other gig.