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original PM
29th October 2018, 08:46
Agile is ageist - discuss (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-agile-just-euphemism-lets-fire-all-old-people-dan-lyons)

chef
29th October 2018, 09:12
Agile is ageist - discuss (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-agile-just-euphemism-lets-fire-all-old-people-dan-lyons)

Define “old”

If by old you mean those that are unwilling to try or understand a different way of thinking because “what’s wrong with the old way” then yes they should be replaced by those who are willing to adapt or at least try something new. I’m not saying that the new thing should be accepted de facto but it should at least be given a chance.

tazdevil
29th October 2018, 09:18
Martin Fowler, one of the software gurus who wrote and signed the original agile manifesto. I asked him what he makes of Agile today. “I’d say about 90 percent of it is bulltulip,” he told me. The problem is that nobody knows which 90 percent. (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-agile-just-euphemism-lets-fire-all-old-people-dan-lyons)
All these new fangled ideologies are bulltulip designed to provide useless management with an excuse to exist. Simply being creative, diligent and having perseverance is the only approach that actually works. You don't create great code and systems by cuddling your work mate:eek

Yorkie62
29th October 2018, 09:24
... You don't create great code and systems by cuddling your work mate:eek

Depends what she's like.:grin

frustin
29th October 2018, 09:28
the IT circle of life.

Agile does allow you to decouple your business processes from the monolith. However businesses need to be careful that they're not mistaking agile for, get it done quick but leave a tonne of tech-debt or unmanageable IT because they dont know what it does. Businesses also need to be mindful that developers dont grow on trees and you also need someone to lead them. Also moving them on the path of the business not on the path of what they think the business should be doing.

vwdan
29th October 2018, 09:49
Indeed, Agile might provide a clever way to sidestep age discrimination laws. Companies can’t fire you because of your age, but there’s no law that says companies can’t adopt some fuzzy, poorly defined new attribute that every employee must have — and then fire you for lacking that attribute. There’s also no law that says a company can’t force employees to adopt insane, pointless new methodologies and then gaslight them until they quit.


God Bless America.

Troll
29th October 2018, 09:49
Agile is ageist - discuss (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-agile-just-euphemism-lets-fire-all-old-people-dan-lyons)Have to agree with the statement "
I’d say about 90 percent of it is bulltulip,” he told me. The problem is that nobody knows which 90 percent" but then I'm an old git:oldgit:

Lockhouse
29th October 2018, 10:11
I used to punt myself out as an Agile coach but found it too stressful.

In my experience almost everyone is doing Scrumbut.

As in "We've implemented Scrum, but...."

Lance
29th October 2018, 10:37
It seems 'agile' now has three different meanings in IT/business.

1) a software development project management strategy
2) a flexible method of working (a new one to me this, but after I'd done a load of background research for an interview it seems the agile they had on the job spec is not #1).
3) the one this thread is about

:freaky:

chopper
29th October 2018, 10:38
I had a client with a "Lean & Agile" mantra for IT, but it really just meant "Quick & Crufty".

I prefer HAYSIMTATMAJLMGOWI methodology: "How about you stop inviting me to all these meetings and just let me get on with it"

TwoWolves
29th October 2018, 10:46
Most of the time it just makes software development run to a sweatshop mentality with throwaway code. Fine for simple projects but complex developments requiring high quality it's dreadful.

People need to understand that there will always be some waterfall activities.

NickFitz
29th October 2018, 10:51
"Enterprise Agile" != Agile.

For example, there is nothing "agile" about this, which I first saw used in all seriousness as part of a presentation at a ClientCorp that was "transitioning to Agile" three or four years ago:


http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/images/saf.png

Remember, the original Agile Manifesto (http://agilemanifesto.org/) speaks of valuing:


Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
Working software over comprehensive documentation
Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
Responding to change over following a plan


Hands up anybody who can demonstrate how the above diagram depicts an organisation that embraces these values. Nobody? OK then.

However, "Enterprise Agile" usually turns out to allow many layers of middle management that desperately need to be swept away if any meaningful improvement is to occur, to instead entrench their positions: they are represented in the above diagram by various arrows, icons, and piles of obvious bulltulip.

So I suspect any cull of older managers that results from "transitioning to Agile" is just a consequence of corporate politics as slightly younger management, who have no useful skills beyond a strong line in buzzwords, manoeuvre to eliminate those blocking their progression into the higher levels of the corporate hierarchy. This would have happened anyway; the garbage that "Agile coaches" provide is merely a useful source of jargon to obfuscate their self-serving manoeuvres.

cojak
29th October 2018, 11:00
I used to punt myself out as an Agile coach but found it too stressful.

In my experience almost everyone is doing Scrumbut.

As in "We've implemented Scrum, but...."

+1 with DevOps :ohwell:

You get rid of Change Management because you’ve moved quality to the left - this means embedded quality to the extent that Change Management is a duplication of effort and can be removed.

Not simply remove Change Management and still pump the same old crap out faster.

original PM
29th October 2018, 11:05
Most of the time it just makes software development run to a sweatshop mentality with throwaway code. Fine for simple projects but complex developments requiring high quality it's dreadful.


Indeed - in fact a PM friend of mine loves Agile because -

1) When they do their sizing sessions he gets a chance to challenge what is said and ensure effectively he tells the developers how long they should take - he has never written a line of code in his life.

2) He can use the daily scrum/stand up sessions to quiz developers on why these ill defined hazy requirements have not been fully delivered yet - and ask if things can be done quicker.

Both of these are so completely against the Agile manifesto and yet he thinks this is exactly what Agile is.


People need to understand that there will always be some waterfall activities.

Yup if you are going completely into the unknown rapid iterative development is a benefit - if you know what you want and are looking at a commodity piece of software then Waterfall can work perfectly well.

The funny thing we find with our Agile teams is how they laugh at the constraints of water fall - and then insist they have to do a release every 2 weeks - because that is how Agile works.

They seem to be unable to see the irony of the fact they are just following a framework - like waterfall and also - not every useful function can be built in 2 weeks....

(in this case our Agile team simply refuses to build them because then they would not have anything to show at Show n Tell time)

vetran
29th October 2018, 11:19
So his premise is Agile is ageist because IBM is sacking expensive(older) workers.

hmmm IBM have been sacking older workers for decades.

Cutting ‘Old Heads’ at IBM (https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/)


I prefer a mix of both. Phases of the project with proper documentation & sign off, then agile for the tasks. stand ups etc are quite handy.

Sorry I don't believe that quality can be built in by developers when the requirements for success come from the stakeholders. They have to take some responsibility and do the tests.

NickFitz
29th October 2018, 12:47
Sorry I don't believe that quality can be built in by developers when the requirements for success come from the stakeholders. They have to take some responsibility and do the tests.

This is precisely why a true Agile team incorporates a "customer representative" (the "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" bit) - the term "stakeholder" wasn't really part of the vernacular at the time the principles were being formulated, or it would probably have been used instead of "customer".

The expanded version is that the agile team should incorporate a full time representative of the people who will ultimately use the software, and the developers must turn to them both to ensure what they are planning to build is really what is required, and to confirm what they have built truly satisfies those requirements. This is perhaps the most important component of agile development, and is honoured in the observance approximately never :rolleyes:

Zigenare
29th October 2018, 12:54
I had a client with a "Lean & Agile" mantra for IT, but it really just meant "Quick & Crufty".

I prefer HAYSIMTATMAJLMGOWI methodology: "How about you stop inviting me to all these meetings and just let me get on with it"

Get on with what?

How long is it going to take?

Can we forego some of the functionality for an earlier release?

What the **** is this, this isn't what we wanted, it's what you think we wanted!

vetran
29th October 2018, 12:59
This is precisely why a true Agile team incorporates a "customer representative" (the "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" bit) - the term "stakeholder" wasn't really part of the vernacular at the time the principles were being formulated, or it would probably have been used instead of "customer".

The expanded version is that the agile team should incorporate a full time representative of the people who will ultimately use the software, and the developers must turn to them both to ensure what they are planning to build is really what is required, and to confirm what they have built truly satisfies those requirements. This is perhaps the most important component of agile development, and is honoured in the observance approximately never :rolleyes:

Ta, interesting.

Many a project I have been on has stakeholders that turn up for meetings & eat the biscuits, then try to slope off when we deliver, wait for it to be success/failure and react accordingly.

Where we had any "full" time reps they either went native and were hung out to dry by their manager or avoided committing themselves. I liked the former because we delivered good stuff but you couldn't use them again.

I like to nail the jelly to the wall and have specifications, UAT sign offs etc, call me old fashioned.

Agile is great for continuous or single development tasks in a team you can trust.

jamesbrown
29th October 2018, 13:01
"Enterprise Agile" != Agile.

Excellent post, I agree wholeheartedly.

original PM
29th October 2018, 13:31
We had an SME for the first ten weeks of the 'project' then their manager tried to get them back - saying that we should know everything after having them for ten weeks.

Took quite a bit for him to understand that the SME is there through out the whole process as the person who says what need to happen and then signs off that it does.

This was 2 years ago and she is still there.

Mind you now we are having to spend an absolute fortune (approx 100k per month) having to re factor the whole thing to make it multi tenanted - as when the original was built this was not on the horizon - and chucking code to gather to get usable screens does often leave a bit of tech debt.

cojak
29th October 2018, 13:54
The expanded version is that the agile team should incorporate a full time representative of the people who will ultimately use the software, and the developers must turn to them both to ensure what they are planning to build is really what is required, and to confirm what they have built truly satisfies those requirements. This is perhaps the most important component of agile development, and is honoured in the observance approximately never :rolleyes:
Yep. A premise that gets completely fecked over as companies reduce headcount and foist multiple projects onto individuals of all skill sets.

Which takes us back to ‘hub’ working as opposed to value stream working.

SueEllen
29th October 2018, 16:43
This is precisely why a true Agile team incorporates a "customer representative" (the "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" bit) - the term "stakeholder" wasn't really part of the vernacular at the time the principles were being formulated, or it would probably have been used instead of "customer".

The expanded version is that the agile team should incorporate a full time representative of the people who will ultimately use the software, and the developers must turn to them both to ensure what they are planning to build is really what is required, and to confirm what they have built truly satisfies those requirements. This is perhaps the most important component of agile development, and is honoured in the observance approximately never :rolleyes:Unfair - I worked in one team in 10 years with a customer representative. So that's about 10% of the teams I've worked on who are doing "agile".

woohoo
29th October 2018, 16:54
Define “old”

If by old you mean those that are unwilling to try or understand a different way of thinking because “what’s wrong with the old way” then yes they should be replaced by those who are willing to adapt or at least try something new. I’m not saying that the new thing should be accepted de facto but it should at least be given a chance.

"What's wrong with the old way", is a perfectly reasonable and logical question to ask.

woohoo
29th October 2018, 16:57
the IT circle of life.

Agile does allow you to decouple your business processes from the monolith. However businesses need to be careful that they're not mistaking agile for, get it done quick but leave a tonne of tech-debt or unmanageable IT because they dont know what it does. Businesses also need to be mindful that developers dont grow on trees and you also need someone to lead them. Also moving them on the path of the business not on the path of what they think the business should be doing.

I hate this kinds of nonsense post. Sorry but you literally have not said anything.

vetran
29th October 2018, 21:46
I hate this kinds of nonsense post. Sorry but you literally have not said anything.


man I don't remember posting that, maybe need to take more water with it, sorry!

woohoo
29th October 2018, 21:50
You are just pissed because he will be taking your anal cherry shortly!


bollox is the currency!

Hah yeah I was a bit pissed off when I posted that.

suityou01
30th October 2018, 13:46
We have a new PM. He sounds like a second hand car salesman. Proper wide Essex boy.

The last release was a total sham. He then promised a "hotfix" a week later.

6 weeks later the "hotfix" is stuck in UAT. Change request follows change request ad infinitum.

He told me the other day it was just agile sprints in UAT, and he thought things were going well. :suicide:

The next release (being the Brexit release) is now happening in a code fork so the other devs don't get bored twiddling their thumbs.

We are having to bunny hop code all over the place. This is his version of agile, and I think its tulip.

MonkeysUncle
30th October 2018, 14:13
I put this link up on my Facebook yesterday saying dont believe the hype of Agile
I got a comment from a friend who happens to by an IT Manager at a large organisation:

"There is no hype...just no more 9 - 5 way of working"

....
.
.
...Outside of software development, more and more I see people calling flexible working the new 'Agile' environment/way of working just because they attend a stand up via skype and WFH 2 days a week!!!

original PM
30th October 2018, 14:36
Broken promise of Agile | Java Code Geeks - 2018 (https://www.javacodegeeks.com/2018/10/broken-promise-agile.html)

A bit more.....

LondonManc
31st October 2018, 08:10
Horses for courses; no point in using agile if your company won't accept it and is too slow to care about it.

Now, Kanban is something I can work with, especially if you're involved in fixing stuff too. You pack an Agile spring with deliverables, tulip hits the fan day two, you spent two days fixing and testing a live issue and suddenly you've no chance of delivering what's in your sprint. At least with Kanban you can just crack on with whatever's next on the list.

woohoo
31st October 2018, 10:02
Horses for courses; no point in using agile if your company won't accept it and is too slow to care about it.

Now, Kanban is something I can work with, especially if you're involved in fixing stuff too. You pack an Agile spring with deliverables, tulip hits the fan day two, you spent two days fixing and testing a live issue and suddenly you've no chance of delivering what's in your sprint. At least with Kanban you can just crack on with whatever's next on the list.

Is Kanban simply a list of items to do represented as cards. You then move them through various stages, todo, doing, test, done etc?

suityou01
31st October 2018, 10:59
Is Kanban simply a list of items to do represented as cards. You then move them through various stages, todo, doing, test, done etc?

Yep. But it was branded with a Japanese name as this sells better to the pointy haired managers.

original PM
31st October 2018, 11:56
kanban
/ˈkanban/
noun
a Japanese manufacturing system in which the supply of components is regulated through the use of an instruction card sent along the production line.

an instruction card used in a kanban system.

plural noun: kanbans

What is Kanban? | LeanKit (https://leankit.com/learn/kanban/what-is-kanban/)

Quite interesting

Main problem for managers (pointy haired or otherwise) is that they cannot just drop in, switch shit around and then moan because stuff they switched does not get done because it is clear what the priorities are and who made those decisions.

darmstadt
31st October 2018, 12:06
Reading this thread kind of gives me the impression that we should get rid of all these methodologies along with all the staff based around them, PMs and whatever silly little names these people give themselves :tongue

original PM
31st October 2018, 12:17
Reading this thread kind of gives me the impression that we should get rid of all these methodologies along with all the staff based around them, PMs and whatever silly little names these people give themselves :tongue

:wink

the PM does not stand for Project Manager....

:smile

BlasterBates
31st October 2018, 12:38
I remember in the days before Agile, when doing a project we would reduce it down to the smallest thing that was a deliverable and incrementally add the rest.
We set up a ticket (change request) system where changes could be added on demand. Virtually all software projects were organised on these lines. Some projects had design documents others didn't. If you had a design document then changing the document to add whatever change you were doing took up very little time. There is no difference between incrementally adding changes to a design document than changing the software.

All in all Agile is just hype. The myth is not agile, the myth is their description of life before Agile that only young developers will believe, who never knew what it used to be like,

LondonManc
1st November 2018, 07:50
Is Kanban simply a list of items to do represented as cards. You then move them through various stages, todo, doing, test, done etc?

Yes. I think Kanban is Japanese for Structured JFDI.

Not sure how good it is for IR35 for contractors who are part of the collective - you have to pick the next available item to work (D&C) rather than having a set of deliverables for you personally. Happy with it from a permie point of view and would be happy if I was a contractor and all participants were contractors but not sure it lends itself well to IR35 happiness.

woohoo
1st November 2018, 08:03
I remember in the days before Agile, when doing a project we would reduce it down to the smallest thing that was a deliverable and incrementally add the rest.
We set up a ticket (change request) system where changes could be added on demand. Virtually all software projects were organised on these lines. Some projects had design documents others didn't. If you had a design document then changing the document to add whatever change you were doing took up very little time. There is no difference between incrementally adding changes to a design document than changing the software.

All in all Agile is just hype. The myth is not agile, the myth is their description of life before Agile that only young developers will believe, who never knew what it used to be like,

I read the original manifesto and all good common sense.

Looks like it’s been hijacked and made into something complex.

Hobosapien
1st November 2018, 08:40
I read the original manifesto and all good common sense.

Looks like it’s been hijacked and made into something complex.


Always the way with bullshitting management shysters. Makes their job sound complex and important so they can't easily be replaced.

Part of the reason I prefer contracting to permiedom. If the client is infested with such nonsense I can easily move on.

My favourite management bullshit at current client is the banning of certain words that may have negative connotations. I use them every opportunity I get in emails just to take the piss as I didn't go to the permie indoctrination lessons on this new staff behaviour policy. :smokin

original PM
1st November 2018, 10:11
Always the way with bulltulipting management shysters. Makes their job sound complex and important so they can't easily be replaced.

Part of the reason I prefer contracting to permiedom. If the client is infested with such nonsense I can easily move on.

My favourite management bulltulip at current client is the banning of certain words that may have negative connotations. I use them every opportunity I get in emails just to take the piss as I didn't go to the permie indoctrination lessons on this new staff behaviour policy. :smokin

Banning certain words seem to be somewhat Orwellian in nature.

Which jumped up belled in that company thought they had a right to tell people what words they can and cannot use - unbelievable - you need to name the client...

cojak
1st November 2018, 10:29
Banning certain words seem to be somewhat Orwellian in nature.

Which jumped up belled in that company thought they had a right to tell people what words they can and cannot use - unbelievable - you need to name the client...

He’s rebellious but not that stupid...

Eirikur
1st November 2018, 12:52
at current clientco Agile means they have flex desks

LondonManc
1st November 2018, 13:12
The only banned word I’ve encountered at a client was “hopefully”. When giving dates for delivery, it worked a treat as you committed to a certain date you knew you could deliver for rather than trying too hard to please.

suityou01
1st November 2018, 13:51
at current clientco Agile means they have flex desks

We may well be at the same place.