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MarkT
29th October 2018, 16:26
So, that's that then I guess. No more contracting, unless we can fight it as a group and gain enough traction with Tory MPs to stop it by 2020. Not much chance of that, but you have to try.

Won't somebody think of the accountants?

ladymuck
29th October 2018, 16:33
People could join some organisation that fights for the rights of independent professionals and the self-employed. All coming together to fight a common cause and all that.

northernladuk
29th October 2018, 16:38
People said the same when IR35 was introduced, when it was reformed, when it hit the Public Sector and hey, guess what. We are still here.

Far too much to go on between now and then to be throwing the towel in.

amrhady
29th October 2018, 16:46
People said the same when IR35 was introduced, when it was reformed, when it hit the Public Sector and hey, guess what. We are still here.

Far too much to go on between now and then to be throwing the towel in.

Exactly this. Way too early to conclude anything, wait and see how the market will respond.

Also be sure there will be considerable pressure on the government between now and Apr2020, which could work to some extent.

vwdan
29th October 2018, 17:30
People said the same when IR35 was introduced, when it was reformed, when it hit the Public Sector and hey, guess what. We are still here.

Far too much to go on between now and then to be throwing the towel in.

I've spent a lot of my life being cynical, but I'm actually quite optimistic over this. I honestly think there'll be a brave new world for contractors who want to do 'real' contracting and can hold their nerve.

I've spent so much time persuading clients to treat me as a B2B that I find myself quite looking forward to it. Life's too short to let this define me - I contract for a large variety of reasons, and hopefully, most of those will still be valid.

SussexSeagull
29th October 2018, 17:32
Everything to play for. There will be a lot of conversation s between Finance and HR departments in the next 18 months and it was never totally adopted in the public sector.

vwdan
29th October 2018, 17:36
Everything to play for. There will be a lot of conversation s between Finance and HR departments in the next 18 months and it was never totally adopted in the public sector.

The problem is, and for a Tory government I'm surprised they can't grasp this, is that contractors don't just randomly exist. There's a market for it and if the private sector knows one thing, it's how to get what they want even if it means "working around" the rules.

The demand for contractors and what we do isn't just going to disappear, the roles aren't going to disappear, the work that needs doing isn't going to just disappear. It's like to trying to reduce drug usage by increasing tax on heroine.

NotAllThere
30th October 2018, 06:12
So, that's that then I guess. No more contracting, unless we can fight it as a group and gain enough traction with Tory MPs to stop it by 2020. Not much chance of that, but you have to try.

Won't somebody think of the accountants?

Oh. Is it 1999 again?

PerfectStorm
30th October 2018, 08:53
What are you panicking about? Almost nothing has changed.

BR14
30th October 2018, 10:10
. It's like to trying to reduce drug usage by increasing tax on heroine.

:D

Fred Bloggs
30th October 2018, 11:20
Well, it has arrived bang on time. April 2020. I hope you all enjoy your new found employment along with all the employment rights you fought for but "didn't really want". Don't say you weren't warned, it's taken over twenty years to happen but now reality has caught up with you. Most of you will finally be recognised as the bum on a seat temporary employee you always were. You had a great run pretending to be "real businesses", but now, in line with just about everywhere else in the world, you've become temps. The last two or three years I have met a lot of ex-contractors from the UK in various parts of the world. I guess in the next year or so, I'll be meeting many more who, like me have voted with our feet. The UK chancellor now gets a bit fat zero from me and many others despite me earning more now than I ever did back in good old Blighty. Good luck guys/ladies, see you soon.

Fred Bloggs
30th October 2018, 11:32
People could join some organisation that fights for the rights of independent professionals and the self-employed. All coming together to fight a common cause and all that.
Hey, I've got a great idea. Let's start something called the Professional Contractors Group. We could be all noisy and rabble rousing and be a pain in the government's side. For 18 years we could prevent the nasty Mr Brown and his pals from taxing us to oblivion. We could even take a case to the very top of the UK legal profession and win!

(But then we could overnight start saying we represented the self employed, like Deliveroo and Uber workers or Plumbers. Then we could cuddle up to the government and have tea and biccies. We could even fight for and obtain employees rights that we say we don't want. And then when the person who doesn't want to be an employee is declared one, we can claim a victory. And, we could sell out all those public sector Ltd Co contractors who we said we were going to fight for to keep them out of the very legislation we were founded to fight against. And then one day, we found we'd accidentally thrown all of us under the very same bus. Great idea eh?) Shame on you PCG/IPSE, shame on you with the snouts in the trough fiddling while Rome burnt to cinder.

webberg
30th October 2018, 12:12
My biggest fear is that - just as in 1999 - end clients do not want permanent or temporary employees and will pressure contractors to remain as that.

In the absence of agencies/umbrellas/recruiters taking on the risk of getting that call wrong, it will fall on individual contractors.

There are undoubtedly some people out there who are ready to come forward with a "compliant, QC approved" scheme to "solve" this problem.

I hope that most contractors are now too savvy to fall for those, but sadly I suspect not.

New models are going to be needed and a better balance between end client who wants a job done and contractor who has the skills to do it.

original PM
30th October 2018, 12:19
If you genuinely run a small business offering IT/Other consultancy services to a number of clients then you will have nothing to worry about.

Want some tips on how to look like running a small business then PM me - my rates are reasonable.

Fred Bloggs
30th October 2018, 12:22
If you genuinely run a small business offering IT/Other consultancy services to a number of clients then you will have nothing to worry about.

Want some tips on how to look like running a small business then PM me - my rates are reasonable.
Correct. Maybe 99% of posters here fail that test. I know, I have sat next to them. I bet you have too.

Fred Bloggs
30th October 2018, 12:25
My biggest fear is that - just as in 1999 - end clients do not want permanent or temporary employees and will pressure contractors to remain as that.

In the absence of agencies/umbrellas/recruiters taking on the risk of getting that call wrong, it will fall on individual contractors.

There are undoubtedly some people out there who are ready to come forward with a "compliant, QC approved" scheme to "solve" this problem.

I hope that most contractors are now too savvy to fall for those, but sadly I suspect not.

New models are going to be needed and a better balance between end client who wants a job done and contractor who has the skills to do it.
That new model has already existed for decades, forever even. It's called a fixed term contract. Whether on an employers or an agencies payroll, that's the new model. Anything less than that on full PAYE will lead to the same old schemes you allude to above, those "HMRC approved, fully compliant" ones. With the same old fall out as a result.

fatJock
30th October 2018, 12:49
People said the same when IR35 was introduced, when it was reformed, when it hit the Public Sector and hey, guess what. We are still here.

Far too much to go on between now and then to be throwing the towel in.

Fully agree .... far too much speculation on what will be etc. IR35 was meant to be the death knell for contacting all those years ago.

I'm surprised it was extended to 2020 to be fair so if nothing else, more time to make hay until we know the detail and what the strategies to tackle are.

original PM
30th October 2018, 12:54
Correct. Maybe 99% of posters here fail that test. I know, I have sat next to them. I bet you have too.

Indeed - however often I found it was the agency to blame - generally offering crap rates say about £10 per hour but selling it to the person that if they run a limited (or go through a brolly) they will get much more than if they were paye.....

This was about 15 years ago mind you - then since then no agencies do PAYE so everyone had to go through brollies or limiteds.... (or PSC but lets move on from that)

Then brollies expenses got nerfed and so ltd was the only was to go if you wanted to try and get any of your tax back and not just pay a brolly for doing your PAYE payroll.

So in essence the industry and the agencies have created this problem because often the contractor literally had no other option.

Lance
30th October 2018, 12:58
If you genuinely run a small business offering IT/Other consultancy services to a number of clients then you will have nothing to worry about.

Want some tips on how to look like running a small business then PM me - my rates are reasonable.

That's great except the number of clients you have has not been the subject of an IR35 test case so is not relevant in the law. Albeit probably relevant to the spirit of what it's trying to prevent.
Wasn't number of clients part of the old business entity test (BET)?

original PM
30th October 2018, 13:02
That's great except the number of clients you have has not been the subject of an IR35 test case so is not relevant in the law. Albeit probably relevant to the spirit of what it's trying to prevent.
Wasn't number of clients part of the old business entity test (BET)?

It's about believability

If you have 4 different clients over 2 years with clear breaks between them you can clearly say you have not been a disguised employee and that should hold up in court - especially if you pay me for some advice on how to look like a business to HMRC

if you have been at the same client for 2 years your argument is weaker....a lot weaker especially if you have been minimising pay and maximising dividends..

Lance
30th October 2018, 13:14
It's about believability

If you have 4 different clients over 2 years with clear breaks between them you can clearly say you have not been a disguised employee and that should hold up in court - especially if you pay me for some advice on how to look like a business to HMRC

if you have been at the same client for 2 years your argument is weaker....a lot weaker especially if you have been minimising pay and maximising dividends..

that believability (sic) may well suit a casual observer. But the number of clients, and the minimising of tax liability by using dividends, have no legal bearing whatsoever on IR35.

Not until a judge agrees with your believability at a tax tribunal.

I'm sure that if you pay yourself £40k PAYE and small dividends you are a lot less likely to get investigated, but if I was that worried I'd buy QDOS TLC35 insurance as it's cheaper.

ChimpMaster
30th October 2018, 13:22
It's about believability

If you have 4 different clients over 2 years with clear breaks between them you can clearly say you have not been a disguised employee and that should hold up in court - especially if you pay me for some advice on how to look like a business to HMRC

if you have been at the same client for 2 years your argument is weaker....a lot weaker especially if you have been minimising pay and maximising dividends..

Not really. But I see why you're trying to make that point.

You can have one client for years, with evidence that you have vied for renewals and held negotiations on every renewal, trying to win new business. You might have been forced to take unpaid leave, or given a mid-contract rate cut. You might have been able to send in a substitute for even a short amount of time. Perhaps you even had the authority to dictate your place of work, or how the work is done, and within what schedule.

Wouldn't that just be wonderful.

billybiro
31st October 2018, 21:55
My biggest fear is that - just as in 1999 - end clients do not want permanent or temporary employees and will pressure contractors to remain as that.


Don't worry. By April 2010, this government will have decimated employee's rights to the point that employers are free to hire and fire at will with no negative consequences. Problem solved.

LondonManc
1st November 2018, 07:46
It's not the end, it's simply a revision of the rules and the game changes and players adapt or fold.

Yorkie62
1st November 2018, 08:49
It's not the end, it's simply a revision of the rules and the game changes and players adapt or fold.

This. Simples.

GreenMirror
1st November 2018, 09:23
It's not the end, it's simply a revision of the rules and the game changes and players adapt or fold.

That was said in 1997 with IR35. And nothing changed.

LondonManc
1st November 2018, 10:13
That was said in 1997 with IR35. And nothing changed.

To be fair, contractors did stop claiming TVs and DVD players on expenses, as well as dining tables as conference tables etc.

northernladuk
1st November 2018, 10:32
To be fair, contractors did stop claiming TVs and DVD players on expenses, as well as dining tables as conference tables etc.

You think? :eyes

GreenMirror
1st November 2018, 10:43
To be fair, contractors did stop claiming TVs and DVD players on expenses, as well as dining tables as conference tables etc.

Citibank 1994. A contractor put his new kitchen via the company. Took him years for HMRC to complete the body cavity search without lube.

LondonManc
1st November 2018, 10:45
You think? :eyes

By comparison yes.

d000hg
9th November 2018, 11:26
So, that's that then I guess. No more contracting, unless we can fight it as a group and gain enough traction with Tory MPs to stop it by 2020. Not much chance of that, but you have to try.

Won't somebody think of the accountants?Yes absolutely all contractors will quit.

I don't know when I joined CUK (2008?) but I am sure people have been saying since at least then that contracting is over/not worth it. Strangely, most of them are still contracting and still saying it.

swamp
9th November 2018, 16:12
Yes absolutely all contractors will quit.

I don't know when I joined CUK (2008?) but I am sure people have been saying since at least then that contracting is over/not worth it. Strangely, most of them are still contracting and still saying it.

They've been saying that since 1999. We're still here.

This thing, contracting, is not over by a long way.

Acme Thunderer
9th November 2018, 17:32
They've been saying that since 1999. We're still here.

This thing, contracting, is not over by a long way.

Even if inside IR35 I would still choose to contract. Yes I'll take a financial hit but will still be comfortable compared to the permies. There is a reasonable amount of work around where I live so travel costs don't really come into it. I will still have the plus points of

Avoiding office politics
No Personal development/reviews
Not worrying about how much holiday I can take
Choosing what I work on
Moving on if I'm not enjoying what I'm working on

Fred Bloggs
10th November 2018, 12:10
Yes absolutely all contractors will quit.

I don't know when I joined CUK (2008?) but I am sure people have been saying since at least then that contracting is over/not worth it. Strangely, most of them are still contracting and still saying it.
Just as in most things in life really. The smarter ones already quit and moved on to pastures new and in my case, far more lucrative as a bonus too. By the time the majority catch on, the ship has sailed. It's true here just like everywhere else. HTH.

billybiro
11th November 2018, 16:06
They've been saying that since 1999. We're still here.

This thing, contracting, is not over by a long way.

That may be true but over the same period those contractors who are still contracting continually bemoan how contracting is not as good as it used to be. Go figure.

BR14
11th November 2018, 18:35
That may be true but over the same period those contractors who are still contracting continually bemoan how contracting is not as good as it used to be. Go figure.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be, either :smokin

Unix
12th November 2018, 10:43
I work for the Public Sector and they have all contractors outside IR35. So much easier as the client assumes liability, not the individual contractor.

vwdan
12th November 2018, 11:36
Just as in most things in life really. The smarter ones already quit and moved on to pastures new and in my case, far more lucrative as a bonus too. By the time the majority catch on, the ship has sailed. It's true here just like everywhere else. HTH.

The really smart ones doesn't listen to billy bullshitters on internet forums.

Maslins
12th November 2018, 12:06
I work for the Public Sector and they have all contractors outside IR35. So much easier as the client assumes liability, not the individual contractor.

This should provide a fair amount of comfort for contractors more generally. If the public sector are prepared to make a call like this (which may well be after careful consideration of contracts/working practices) then presumably at least some in the private sector will be happy to as well. If some private sector businesses do it, then others will feel pressure to follow suit, as otherwise they'll likely lose the best talent.

Fred Bloggs
12th November 2018, 12:53
The really smart ones doesn't listen to billy bulltulipters on internet forums.
Yes, that's right, I don't.

darkwingduck
10th May 2019, 15:44
I think after the first year, the private sector will eventually find a way when they realise they need flexible resource and everything will be back to normal

BR14
10th May 2019, 19:08
I think after the first year, the private sector will eventually find a way when they realise they need flexible resource and everything will be back to normal

:rollin::rollin::rollin:

BrilloPad
11th May 2019, 05:50
:rollin::rollin::rollin:

+1

HMRC learnt from Arctic. The Costelloe victory will help HMRC too.

Contractors might stand a chance if they all work together....

malvolio
11th May 2019, 07:13
+1

HMRC learnt from Arctic. The Costelloe victory will help HMRC too.

Contractors might stand a chance if they all work together....
But other recent cases have pushed it back the other way. If you deem a worker to be inside IR35, then there are serious costs associated with that decision that currently are borne by the worker that are going on your bottom line.

There is a simple and effective solution, which is to engage contractors on proper B2B terms so IR35 is a distant memory. Rather than trying to persuade a deaf Chancellor that he's wrong, we should be educating the clients on how to use us properly - and, horror of horrors, we have to stop expecting to be paid nice and regularly like permies and take on a bit of the risk ourselves.

As for work together - CBI, FSB, ICAEW, IPSE, IoD and various other minor groups are heavily on the case. However you will notice the agencies are focussing on teaching their clients how to minimise the costs of the change so their own income and lazy business model is unaffected. So don't expect a lot of help from REC and APSCo.

NotAllThere
11th May 2019, 08:01
Two reasons why contracting won't die.
1. Plenty of contractors go through brollies.
2. A minority of contractors/clients will establish direct B2B contracts.

JohntheBike
16th May 2019, 07:29
So, that's that then I guess. No more contracting, unless we can fight it as a group and gain enough traction with Tory MPs to stop it by 2020. Not much chance of that, but you have to try.

Won't somebody think of the accountants?

"unless we can fight it as a group"

so far although some groups exist, little has been achieved by them in the fight against IR35

edit
as I see it, IT contractors were originally the main target for IR35. However, the public sector roll out of the new rules has shown there is collateral damage in areas, e.g. the Health Service and the BBC, that HMG might not have foreseen. The PCG/IPSE was formed principally by IT contractors and as such, I guess HMG views this organisation as having self interest in opposing IR35.

Until recent times and the roll out of the new rules, I would judge that other long standing organisations whose members might not have intentionally been the original target of IR35, but who are now being caught in the net, have remained indifferent to the issues.

I really can't see IPSE being viewed with anything other than derision by HMG, and it might be better for them to work in the background with other organisations that HMG has more respect for and which existed prior to the advent of IR35 e.g. the organisation representing locum doctors.

FK1
17th May 2019, 11:06
But other recent cases have pushed it back the other way. If you deem a worker to be inside IR35, then there are serious costs associated with that decision that currently are borne by the worker that are going on your bottom line.

There is a simple and effective solution, which is to engage contractors on proper B2B terms so IR35 is a distant memory. Rather than trying to persuade a deaf Chancellor that he's wrong, we should be educating the clients on how to use us properly - and, horror of horrors, we have to stop expecting to be paid nice and regularly like permies and take on a bit of the risk ourselves.

As for work together - CBI, FSB, ICAEW, IPSE, IoD and various other minor groups are heavily on the case. However you will notice the agencies are focussing on teaching their clients how to minimise the costs of the change so their own income and lazy business model is unaffected. So don't expect a lot of help from REC and APSCo.

Currently I am negotiating a direct contract with a big corporation. A project manager uses clueless HR that uses clueless Employee relations advisors. They could not change anything without that lawyers review while that lawyers even have no clue about SDC. They have a title "Employee relations advisor" and think if they repeatedly stating a duck is not a duck that is more than enough.

I am trying to educate them with plain English and HMRC manuals, case law etc. But I think it will not work.
They do not want to be educated. They are OK and they have no problem and they do not see any problems.
That is the end.

It seems for me no more grey colour and it goes to black and white. Either umbrella or business terms on your corporative web-site where you are no more Human and no more Resource.