PDA

View Full Version : My Note to IPSE Today



ContractBunny
21st January 2019, 14:24
Hello,

I am increasingly disturbed by the news coming from the board and in particular the changes to the Articles of Association they are trying to push through. I am an IT contractor but increasingly IPSE seem to be projecting an image of photogenic creative professionals that do not represent me. The impression this is creating is that IPSE is somewhat embarrassed by its core and founding membership. I am due to renew on the 09/02/2019. I would like to cancel my membership (no. XXXXX) on the 08/02/2019 and not renew.

Thanking you in advance.

My note to IPSE today. Of course there other reasons including the fact that the IR35 battle is basically lost. I also wanted to make my PC image point without laying it on too thickly.

malvolio
21st January 2019, 14:43
To be fair the changes to the AoA do absolutely nothing to change the services IPSE delivers to its members*. As for who they represent, yes that is changing, but it does not follow that it stops representing its original membership base - but if you're trying to attract new members from other fields then its's not unreasonable that your advertising will reflect their view of the world. Ignore the PR fluff and look at what your membership is actually providing.

As for the IR35 fight being lost, I will have to disagree - it's very much alive. The only change - and one that is a couple of years old now - is that IPSE seem to accepted that IR35 is not going away so are concentrating on minimising its impact and ensuring it is only applied to workers that are clearly in its scope.



* to be absolutely fair, the fear from the remaining CC people is that IPSE's management will set off in a completely different direction in a year or two without the CC there to stop them. I see that whole concept as rather fanciful, but who knows...

Scruff
21st January 2019, 15:03
I would encourage you not to resign. IPSE represent all Independent Freelancers / Contractors.

Rather, vote against the Special Resolution that the Board are proposing?


Hello,

I am increasingly disturbed by the news coming from the board and in particular the changes to the Articles of Association they are trying to push through. I am an IT contractor but increasingly IPSE seem to be projecting an image of photogenic creative professionals that do not represent me. The impression this is creating is that IPSE is somewhat embarrassed by its core and founding membership. I am due to renew on the 09/02/2019. I would like to cancel my membership (no. XXXXX) on the 08/02/2019 and not renew.

Thanking you in advance.

My note to IPSE today. Of course there other reasons including the fact that the IR35 battle is basically lost. I also wanted to make my PC image point without laying it on too thickly.

ShandyDrinker
21st January 2019, 18:23
To be fair the changes to the AoA do absolutely nothing to change the services IPSE delivers to its members*. As for who they represent, yes that is changing, but it does not follow that it stops representing its original membership base - but if you're trying to attract new members from other fields then its's not unreasonable that your advertising will reflect their view of the world. Ignore the PR fluff and look at what your membership is actually providing.

As for the IR35 fight being lost, I will have to disagree - it's very much alive. The only change - and one that is a couple of years old now - is that IPSE seem to accepted that IR35 is not going away so are concentrating on minimising its impact and ensuring it is only applied to workers that are clearly in its scope.



* to be absolutely fair, the fear from the remaining CC people is that IPSE's management will set off in a completely different direction in a year or two without the CC there to stop them. I see that whole concept as rather fanciful, but who knows...

The sad thing is that reading PCG 5: IPSE is born | IPSE (https://www.ipse.co.uk/our/news-listing/pcg-ipse-is-born-.html) makes one realise just how much the core membership has been taken for granted.

While on the one hand I can understand the feeling that the aggressive approach towards IR35 had not worked, hence the change in direction to a more touchy feely approach and being closer to the action by being located in Westminster. The sad part is that being less vocal and being more political in the way that good old chaps work has not particularly worked either. The comments about how Hammond and Gauke inferred that IR35 would be history if the Tories were voted in shows just how duplicitous politicians are, particularly once the realities of power sink in.

Ignoring the history for a moment, my fear for the future of the IPSE, if they are not concentrating on what I would imagine are still their core membership, is that the very moment members will need them, post April 2020, is the moment at which I am fully expecting them to abandon their members because of the large numbers of IR35 investigations I expect to take place post that date.

malvolio
21st January 2019, 18:39
The sad thing is that reading PCG 5: IPSE is born | IPSE (https://www.ipse.co.uk/our/news-listing/pcg-ipse-is-born-.html) makes one realise just how much the core membership has been taken for granted.

While on the one hand I can understand the feeling that the aggressive approach towards IR35 had not worked, hence the change in direction to a more touchy feely approach and being closer to the action by being located in Westminster. The sad part is that being less vocal and being more political in the way that good old chaps work has not particularly worked either. The comments about how Hammond and Gauke inferred that IR35 would be history if the Tories were voted in shows just how duplicitous politicians are, particularly once the realities of power sink in.

Ignoring the history for a moment, my fear for the future of the IPSE, if they are not concentrating on what I would imagine are still their core membership, is that the very moment members will need them, post April 2020, is the moment at which I am fully expecting them to abandon their members because of the large numbers of IR35 investigations I expect to take place post that date.
That's the best non sequitur I've seen all week :happy

Anyway the same question has been asked not all that long ago. As I recall the answer was that there is no plan to abandon the membership. Indeed, since the membership is IPSE, I don't actually see how they can.

As far as I know the aim is to ensure private sector off-payroll rules if they come in (and there is a lot of opposition to the idea) are only applied to those companies who deliberately take on disguised employees. That, as you may imagine, is no easy task! Equally, businesses have no interest in taking on an additional tax and/or administrative burden nor the risks associated with employment tribunals as per the Susan Winchester case. So I'm not expecting a tsunami of claims next year, just some key appeals.

ShandyDrinker
21st January 2019, 19:20
That's the best non sequitur I've seen all week :happy

Anyway the same question has been asked not all that long ago. As I recall the answer was that there is no plan to abandon the membership. Indeed, since the membership is IPSE, I don't actually see how they can.

As far as I know the aim is to ensure private sector off-payroll rules if they come in (and there is a lot of opposition to the idea) are only applied to those companies who deliberately take on disguised employees. That, as you may imagine, is no easy task! Equally, businesses have no interest in taking on an additional tax and/or administrative burden nor the risks associated with employment tribunals as per the Susan Winchester case. So I'm not expecting a tsunami of claims next year, just some key appeals.

Non sequitur indeed :smile

There was a lot of opposition to IR35 and look how that turned out. Joking aside no matter how much opposition there is to the private sector off-payroll rollout, the politicians obviously feel like they've got public support on their side so sadly I can't see it going away.

As appears to have been the case in the public sector, blanket assessments are likely to be rife as a risk minimisation strategy if the private sector rollout goes ahead, regardless of the reality. The IPSE needs to be prepared to help its members fight this should the need arise.

cojak
21st January 2019, 19:42
* to be absolutely fair, the fear from the remaining CC people is that IPSE's management will set off in a completely different direction in a year or two without the CC there to stop them. I see that whole concept as rather fanciful, but who knows...

Who knows indeed. I refer the honourable member to iMechE shenanigans...

Mech Eng Matters | Motion 1 (https://www.mechengmatters.com/motion-1)

northernladuk
21st January 2019, 21:35
My note to IPSE today. Of course there other reasons including the fact that the IR35 battle is basically lost. I also wanted to make my PC image point without laying it on too thickly.

What has your contribution to the fight been out of interest?

JohntheBike
22nd January 2019, 11:21
To be fair the changes to the AoA do absolutely nothing to change the services IPSE delivers to its members*. As for who they represent, yes that is changing, but it does not follow that it stops representing its original membership base - but if you're trying to attract new members from other fields then its's not unreasonable that your advertising will reflect their view of the world. Ignore the PR fluff and look at what your membership is actually providing.

As for the IR35 fight being lost, I will have to disagree - it's very much alive. The only change - and one that is a couple of years old now - is that IPSE seem to accepted that IR35 is not going away so are concentrating on minimising its impact and ensuring it is only applied to workers that are clearly in its scope.



* to be absolutely fair, the fear from the remaining CC people is that IPSE's management will set off in a completely different direction in a year or two without the CC there to stop them. I see that whole concept as rather fanciful, but who knows...

"only applied to workers that are clearly in its scope", whom I've contended for some time, form a substantial proportion of the IPSE membership.

malvolio
22nd January 2019, 12:28
"only applied to workers that are clearly in its scope", whom I've contended for some time, form a substantial proportion of the IPSE membership.
Not according to their research they don't, most members consider themselves not to be caught, rightly or wrongly. It rather depends on how you view that scope of course.

Also don't forget their remit is a little wider than us IT types these days; lots of absolutely genuine independents are at risk as well if the PS rules are extended

GreenMirror
22nd January 2019, 13:24
the fact that the IR35 battle is basically lost.

Is that a fact?

I thought the battle was not even started yet. After all you posted in "The Future of Contracting". Not "The Present of Contracting" or "The History of Contracting".

Once IPSE joins with QDOS and the current schemes fighting HMRC (LCAG, NTRT, to learn from past mistakes) it will be a doddle.

JohntheBike
22nd January 2019, 15:13
Not according to their research they don't, most members consider themselves not to be caught, rightly or wrongly. It rather depends on how you view that scope of course.

Also don't forget their remit is a little wider than us IT types these days; lots of absolutely genuine independents are at risk as well if the PS rules are extended

"most members consider themselves not to be caught, rightly or wrongly"

there's the rub. It would be interesting to see how many of those who claim they are working outside of IR35, have had their current or past contracts formally assessed by an expert in employment law. The only sure way is for a court to judge. But, there again, just as in the public sector, private clients will adopt a risk averse approach and class all of their contractors as caught. HMRC will easily deal with the very small number of complainants, by conceding, just as they did in the Wiltshire case, whilst reaping the increased tax take from those who do not complain, or are able to adopt other strategies, e.g. increasing their rate.

malvolio
22nd January 2019, 15:16
"most members consider themselves not to be caught, rightly or wrongly"

there's the rub. It would be interesting to see how many of those who claim they are working outside of IR35, have had their current or past contracts formally assessed by an expert in employment law. The only sure way is for a court to judge. But, there again, just as in the public sector, private clients will adopt a risk averse approach and class all of their contractors as caught. HMRC will easily deal with the very small number of complainants, by conceding, just as they did in the Wiltshire case, whilst reaping the increased tax take from those who do not complain, or are able to adopt other strategies, e.g. increasing their rate.
Something over 80% last time I looked, probably more. Most IPSE members are quite well informed about such things anyway.

But you're repeating history to some extent. Several large organisations, not just IPSE, are attacking HMT's plans; this fight is nowhere near won yet.

JohntheBike
22nd January 2019, 17:49
Something over 80% last time I looked, probably more. Most IPSE members are quite well informed about such things anyway.

But you're repeating history to some extent. Several large organisations, not just IPSE, are attacking HMT's plans; this fight is nowhere near won yet.

"Something over 80% last time I looked"

So, you are claiming that 80% of those IPSE members who claim to be working outside of IR35, have had their contracts ruled as outside by professionals well versed in employment law?

If so, how did you establish that fact?

northernladuk
22nd January 2019, 17:59
But, there again, just as in the public sector, private clients will adopt a risk averse approach and class all of their contractors as caught. .

But that's simply not true. There are plenty of outside contractors in the Public sector.

malvolio
22nd January 2019, 18:29
"Something over 80% last time I looked"

So, you are claiming that 80% of those IPSE members who claim to be working outside of IR35, have had their contracts ruled as outside by professionals well versed in employment law?

If so, how did you establish that fact?
Members survey results perhaps?

Also B&C, QDOS, AbbeyTax and the rest are pretty good on their knowledge.

JohntheBike
23rd January 2019, 09:40
But that's simply not true. There are plenty of outside contractors in the Public sector.

time will tell.

northernladuk
23rd January 2019, 09:42
time will tell.Maybe but getting your facts right first will help.

simes
23rd January 2019, 09:45
Of course there other reasons including the fact that the IR35 battle is basically lost.

Not sure I agree with this one...

It has been ongoing for 19 years and will likely continue for another 19. Sure the argument has shifted slightly as has the thrust but it is safe to say that there will now develop a whole other raft of considerations to explore.

Don't lose the faith just yet.

JohntheBike
23rd January 2019, 11:52
Maybe but getting your facts right first will help.

I can only judge by the plethora of articles, which suggest that a majority, if not all, of public sector contractors are being judged as inside IR35 by CEST, irrespective of what the reality is, and that public sector organisations are adopting a reduced risk approach by doing so.

northernladuk
24th January 2019, 13:29
I can only judge by the plethora of articles, which suggest that a majority, if not all, of public sector contractors are being judged as inside IR35 by CEST, irrespective of what the reality is, and that public sector organisations are adopting a reduced risk approach by doing so.

Well you'd be completely wrong I am afraid. That is focussing on those that this affects. Plenty out there that it doesn't and are quite happily delivering away from the limelight as there is no issue to report.

JohntheBike
24th January 2019, 13:49
fake news then!