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candree2000
22nd April 2003, 20:52
Hi,

I am toying with a web-site idea that I believe (hope), in the long run, will generate traffic.

The problem that I have is how to generate the initial traffic. It is a community-based website and targets businesses and the general public in a smallish geographical area.

Once the website is launched, what are the best and most cost effective ways to market it? A few spring to mind....leaflet drops, radio, ad in the local paper etc. The difficulty I can see is that the first people to access the site will see that it has a fairly low rate of user contribution...they will then decide that it is crap and will not return. For example, if I was to start a 'buy and sell' type of site, how could I generate a reasonable number of postings prior to the people actually having a chance to post them....can I steal them from the local paper????

Thanks.

Chris

PerlOfWisdom
23rd April 2003, 10:55
"can I steal them from the local paper????"

All the car-ad papers seem to do this. About a week after the ad runs, they all ring you up to get you to advertise in their mag. Don't know how well it works though.

roger rabbit
23rd April 2003, 12:06
Tits oot for the lads. You know it makes sense.

PerlOfWisdom
23rd April 2003, 16:19
Wot?

roger rabbit
23rd April 2003, 16:31
Perl get a grip love. Sex sells even if it ain't too PC. A few pictures of local lovelies in Readers Wives type poses would increase the traffic dramatically. Who else is going to visit a site for a 1 horse town? You might even get visitors in person spending money in the place anxious to give one of the ladies a squeeze in person.

I am available for discreet video-taping of interesting adult liaisons at reasonable rates if it all takes off.

PerlOfWisdom
23rd April 2003, 16:40
Oh, I didn't understand ther relevance of your comment. Don't know how well it would work for a community based website (whatever that is).

Do you always call blokes "love", I thought only old ladies did that.

roger rabbit
23rd April 2003, 16:46
I withdraw the "love" Perls. Mixed you up with a female that used to be here called Pearls something.

AtW
23rd April 2003, 20:00
If you are unknown then make sure your site is SEO-ed: Search Engine Optimis-ed for GOOGLE. Then deal with other top search engines, but make sure google loves you. Consider investing some money into Google's adwords. If you sell anything then do ebay -- you will get nice traffic that may or may not (depends on the stickiness of your site) stick to it.

btw, ignore rabbit -- allegedly he holds an opinion that one must have £5 mln to promote site - not a penny less. :rollin

JS
24th April 2003, 23:29
Forget search engines, they're crap unless you have a fat wallet these days.

Put something 'sticky' on your site. Forum (www.snitz.com) free classifieds, chat, ringtones, mobile games.

Then Offline advertising is the name of the game. Make sure you have a simple, easy to remember domain name.
www.mytowneastbourneisafabplacetobe.co.uk is NOT the kind of thing you want. www.eastbourne.co.uk IS (someone has already registered it though).
Then plaster it EVERYWHERE.

Get some professional lettering (magnetic boards are ok and not too expensive) for every vehicle your family has. Get THOUSANDS of business cards with just the domain on and stick them through letterboxes (it will take DAYS to do this). Advertise in your local yellow pages. Get some BIG domain posters made up, local pubs let you stick them in in return for a free webshite of a few pages with pictures. And so on and so forth.

After a few months hard work you will have a few thousand hits a day from tight bastards who won't buy anything but will EAT bandwith on your forums/chat rooms - maybe you'll sell the odd ringtone.
:hat

nicknack
25th April 2003, 11:55
--
Forget search engines, they're crap unless you have a fat wallet these days.
--

That seems fine if all you want is local business or non-technical business leads, but what do you do if you want to hit a very tight niche technical area.

I've worked in AI, commercially and academically, for over a decade now and given the current market and although I have ongoing contract work I've decided to set up a web site as honey trap to see if any business comes along. I'm not aiming for local software development work, I have the contract market for that but for businesses that have specific problems AI can attack, scheduling, route planning, manufacturing, data mining etc search engines would seem the way to do it.

Nick Nack

www.sympatry.co.uk

roger rabbit
25th April 2003, 12:24
"I've worked in AI, commercially and academically, for over a decade now"

That's nice work if you can get it, for sure. Personally I prefer the traditional method of insemination.

JS
25th April 2003, 20:14
NickNack
>>It is a community-based website and targets businesses and the general public in a smallish geographical area.

So that's the question I answered :D

As for your website, If your keywords are 'rare' enough you might get up the search engine listings but just try and register with the biggies for free these days.

Linktrade could be the way to go BUT you will be sharing traffic with your competitors.

I would still go the 'offline' route as I have ALWAYS found this is the best. Instead of magnetic car plates maybe buy some diaries, mousemats, pens, etc (all the usual freebie tat) with your www addr and stick it out to your target audience. (Yellow pages too).:hat

AtW
30th April 2003, 20:45
> Forget search engines, they're crap unless you have a fat
> wallet these days.

stupid advice -- google can give highly targeted traffic - not much but conversion could be v. good. You can always cancel your campaign if you see it does not work -- its low barrier of entry.

JS
1st May 2003, 21:50
Yes, ATW it is a stupid idea. Will never work. Don't bother trying it.

P.S. The rest of you should though ;)

N.B. If you don't believe me, see
pub105.ezboard.com/fcukfr...c&index=27 (http://pub105.ezboard.com/fcukfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic&index=27) - and ask yourself why yellow pages, newspapers and printers make so much money from profitable businesses.

AtW
1st May 2003, 22:54
:rollin tell it to 1000s of marketeers who use google's adwords to generate highly convertable traffic :rollin

JS I report directly to Head of Ecommerce of one of the bigger companeis in the UK and before that I did hold a seniour position in top 5 UK .com, but what should I know -- go use your yellow pages :lol

p.s. sucker who did not even get a response to his post can hardly be consired trust worthy, not that I am trying to look like one worth of your trust Mr JS cuz I have no motive for you to trust my advice or not :rollin

JS
1st May 2003, 22:56
That wouldn't by any chance be a company with a fat wallet then, would it???? :rollin

PS I have several concurrent clients.

One of which is a major multi-national that makes extensive use of online-advertising with a budget of several millions per year. BUT the majority of the advertising spend is television, second comes newspaper, third radio, fourth signage, fifth direct mail and sixth online. They have over 3 million customers in the UK and revenues in the billions.

Many are smaller companies with budgets in the thousands, or even hundreds and I would NEVER advise they waste their cash with search engines when far more cost effective means are available to use ALL that budget.

This thread is discussing the most effective way of gaining exposure for a SMALL business. Not, the most effective way for a large corporation with oodles of cash; but if you insist then look at the list above, as you can see TELEVISION is number one if you have the cash.

AtW
1st May 2003, 23:17
> That wouldn't by any chance be a company with a fat wallet
> then, would it????

it is, thats why they hired me and thats why they wont hire you cuz you are ch3ap :b

> One of which is a major multi-national that makes extensive
> use of online-advertising with a budget of several millions

I bet they use banners and they think its great, well, making site Search Optimised can give very good results, but then again, its hard work and may require signifitcant changes to website itself, it so much easier to just pay some cash for banners :rollin

> per year. BUT the majority of the advertising spend is
> television, second comes newspaper, third radio, fourth
> signage, fifth direct mail and sixth online. They have over 3

well that explains, did you know that Internet is #3 medium in the UK ranked by UK consumers only after TV and radio? Newspapers lost out.

> Many are smaller companies with budgets in the
> thousands, or even hundreds and I would NEVER advise
> they waste their cash with search engines when far more
> cost effective means are available to use ALL that budget.

you dont get it -- you dont have to spend money on Google's adwords, but you need to make your site SEO -- Search Engine Optimised if you want Google and others to effectively index your site and include you for free in their index. For a small site with no TV coverage that can be a saved -- a big company with TV coverage may not need it because everyone knows how to find it in the first place!!! So your example is not really applicable!

> This thread is discussing the most effective way of gaining
> exposure for a SMALL business. Not, the most effective

Exactly! its small business nto big business you quoted! Small busienss can't afford TV ads!!!

> way for a large corporation with oodles of cash; but if you
> insist then look at the list above, as you can see
> TELEVISION is number one if you have the cash.

well, you said it yourself -- you quoted big client who spends lots of cash on TV, newspapers etc, something totally opposite to the original question about SMALL firm -- ie no cash for TV!!! By the way for your info, according to recent research most of .coms nwo are small firms that are profitable

Concede defeat JS :D

AtW
1st May 2003, 23:33
JS I forgot to add the following...

your only chance to save your is to admit your defeat to FTV in public right now and never ever dare to oppose me unless I instruct you do so :D

JS
2nd May 2003, 07:40
Hmmmm, obviously you have failed to grasp the point I am making. OK, I'll say it again in simpler terms.

SEARCH ENGINES ARE CRAP FOR SMALL COMPANIES.

it costs a lot of money, which they don't have, to get any worthwhile exposure.

Yes, you can optimise your site for search engines but ITS NOT FREE. You can pay someone like you to do it, but that is not cheap, as you have stated. You can pay someone like me to do it, as you think I am available at a bargain price, but even at minimum wage I would cost £33.60 per day which is a significant amount of cash to a small business, and as you know achieving good search engine placement means an on-going effort. You can even do it yourself, but then again how many small business people are experts in search engine optimisation. Also have you ever heard the phrase 'time is money' and you should explain to them why they have to spend even MORE time working on their business after 60 - 70 hours flat out actually running it!

There is no doubt in my mind (nor in the minds of my clients) that there are far more cost-effective ways to spend your cash. Sure if you have enough cash left then spend it on search engine placement, but don't make it the number one.

As for newsprint being out of it and the internet being 'super-dooper', ask yourself this:

Why do all the companies that try to sell you a computer, which by definition sells to someone FAR more likely to be an internet user than someone hiring a skip, pay sh1t-loads of cash to advertise in the PC magazines despite the fact that they have huge, search-engine optimised, interactive, expensive, technicolour dream-coat, e-commerce enabled websites to sell you the computer?
:smokin

AtW
2nd May 2003, 19:32
> SEARCH ENGINES ARE CRAP FOR SMALL
> COMPANIES.

and you base this statement on absolutely nothing?

> it costs a lot of money, which they don't have, to get any
> worthwhile exposure.

Not its not - adwords are very affordable you can always cancel campaign if it does not work (in fact Google would do it) and you can always ensure that you dont pay more than you gain busienss -- its not TV ads.


> Yes, you can optimise your site for search engines but ITS
> NOT FREE.

There are lots of hints and tips on the web, anyone with half decent brain can get 50% of what most people charge money for.

> You can pay someone like you to do it, but that is not
> cheap, as you have stated.

Well, anything is not cheap for you!


> but even at minimum wage I would cost £33.60 per day
> which is a significant amount of cash to a small business,

do you know what is SEO at all? Well, just to let you knwo that it pertty much done once and lats for a long time -- you don't need to employ anyone to do it full time.

> and as you know achieving good search engine placement
> means an on-going effort.

yep, that why after first month you can reevaluate and decide if it worth doing. A lot of SEO companies would do this efford for puny sums a month (less than some of people on this board charged per hour).


> Also have you ever heard the phrase 'time is money' and
> you should explain to them why they have to spend even
> MORE time working on their business after 60 - 70 hours
> flat out actually running it!

JS, are you think or something? You either spend your time on it or pay money to someone to do that. If you aint got either of this then close down your company and go get a job. If small company has not got time for effective marketing of its products or services, then perhaps it should nto be doing business in the first place.

> There is no doubt in my mind (nor in the minds of my
> clients) that there are far more cost-effective ways to spend
> your cash. Sure if you have enough cash left then spend it
> on search engine placement, but don't make it the number
> one.

you are hopeless, hope your clients will realise that before going bust

> Why do all the companies that try to sell you a computer,
> which by definition sells to someone FAR more likely to be
> an internet user than someone hiring a skip, pay sh1t-loads > of cash to advertise in the PC magazines despite the fact

maybe branding? I actually did a lot of work for big computer company and I analysed results from ads for computer equipment in many printing publications as well as online, and guess what? Almost all print was ineffective -- costs too much, too few sales.

> that they have huge, search-engine optimised, interactive,
> expensive, technicolour dream-coat, e-commerce enabled
> websites to sell you the computer?

they are also thick and have old marketing managers who think that having your ads in the Sun is the thing to have. I've worked with marketing dept for big comp company for 3 years and I know quiet well how they think and behave -- most of them think that website is just a brochure complimentary to print catalogeu :rollin

anyway, think what you want to think

ScotsPine
2nd May 2003, 20:11
"If small company has not got time for effective marketing of its products or services, then perhaps it should nto be doing business in the first place"

- an interesting observation...

"effective marketing of its products or services"

- so how would you define that with particular regard to the typical small company represented onn this board?

AtW
2nd May 2003, 21:05
> - so how would you define that with particular regard to the
> typical small company represented onn this board?

do you mean typical ltd created with a sole purpose to avoid tax and charge premium for being a contractor?

JS
2nd May 2003, 21:58
I base my statements on years of experience, and the experience of many successful small businesses.

Adwords is affordable, don't make me laugh. As soon as you campaign becomes anywhere near successful a larger competitor will simply pay more than you, or if he is crafty will adjust his per-click up until he beats you, then come down a little - forcing you to pay more.

Free tips are available on the web, but you have to have the TIME.

SEO done once and lasts a long time. And you say I don't know about SEO. Still using meta-tags and keyword spamming are you then ?

Then you have to re-evaluate and re-do it every month, I thought you said SEO lasted a long time, why does it have to re-evaluated and re-done every month then?

As for me being think, I think you meant thick. The answer to that is for others to judge, I don't care whether I am thick or not, by academic and IQ measures I am not - but who says they matter. The richest person I know is thick as pig-sh1t by most 'academic' standards (not even a CSE to his name) but is a great bloke and made himself millions through his small chain of shops selling houshold goods.

As for doing it yourself, have you any notion of just how many hours the average small business takes to run - see above?
And again, paying for it: My most recent client is quite large as small businesses go, even they are only turning over £8k a week, their advertising budget is a few hundred a month. Just how many potential customers do you think you could hit for that? I'll give you a clue, the target customer needs to be fairly affluent, be prepared to spend money on their child, own a car, have at least one child under 11, have free time to spend with their child and live within a 15 mile radius. Can you be THAT targeted - bear in mind that for these companies you have to put your money where your mouth is - they will NOT pay you if it doesn't work and YOU will have borne the costs. As for small companies needing to spend money on effective marketing of their products and services I agree with you 100%, the key-word being effective.

As for being hopeless, well I wouldn't dare comment, but I have probably been doing this longer than you have been alive and I make a decent living doing it - mostly repeat business too.

Big companies do it in print for 'Branding', yep, that's exactly what I said. They do it because it to put their brand in front of their target audience to generate sales.

Those sales may come via their website, telephone or off-the-page mail-order but they spend the money so that people know what they offer and can find them easily.


As for marketing managers being thick, maybe some (or all are) who cares - they know what works otherwise they would not have the job. Unless they are brothers of course ;)

What I think is that over-reliance on the internet and a blinkered view that technology can solve most if not all problems is what led to the dot flops. Real SMALL business works to tight margins and has to fight to survive on a daily basis, many thousands don't survive, more than one in 5 owner managers in successful businesses want out because it is so stressful and difficult to earn a decent living.

AtW
2nd May 2003, 22:18
> Free tips are available on the web, but you have to have the
> TIME.

I dont get you, are you suggesting that there is a way to achieve success without using either your TIME or your MONEY? its not a lottery, you know!

> Then you have to re-evaluate and re-do it every month, I
> thought you said SEO lasted a long time, why does it have
> to re-evaluated and re-done every month then?

one month is a long time -- you quoted rate for day implying someone will have to be hired full time.


> As for doing it yourself, have you any notion of just how
> many hours the average small business takes to run - see > above?

I worked for a .com for 3 years - that meant 60-70 hour weeks of not bs work without overtime, we did it because we liked oru job and wecause we had shares in business -- we treated it as if it was ours.

> Those sales may come via their website, telephone or off-
> the-page mail-order but they spend the money so that
> people know what they offer and can find them easily.

sums dont add up -- cost of doing ads in most papers are higher than returns -- obviously it depends on circumstances and there are awlays exceptions.

> What I think is that over-reliance on the internet and a
> blinkered view that technology can solve most if not all
> problems is what led to the dot flops.

the Net has only started to show its strength.

> And again, paying for it: My most recent client is quite
> large as small businesses go, even they are only turning
> over £8k a week, their advertising budget is a few hundred a
> month.

8k week is not too bad for a very small company, thats £400k pa -- not that small at all!


> As for small companies needing to spend money on
> effective marketing of their products and services I agree
> with you 100%, the key-word being effective.

yep, agreed, however, with search engiens its much easier and cheaper to evaluate ROI, there is a lot smaller barrier of entry and penalty for failure is a lot less than with bit paper print.

anyway, I am loosing interest - i aint getting money out of it, and the more people in the world who pursue failed strategies the better for me, so, lets live and see what will happen. whichever out of us two makes million first gets extra round of beer, deal?

> As for being hopeless, well I wouldn't dare comment, but I
> have probably been doing this longer than you have been
> alive and I make a decent living doing it - mostly repeat
> business too.

well, i'd rather be young me than old you :rollin

JS
2nd May 2003, 22:24
So where do you want to meet for your free beer Dortmund? :smokin

AtW
2nd May 2003, 22:25
eh, you living anywhere near West Midlands?

JS
2nd May 2003, 22:33
Dortmund is in Germany. It has excellent beer. I will be near there for the next few days.

I won't be near the WM for a while (I am in Wolverhampton later this year).

PS as for £8k per week not being small, it is very small . It yields just over £85K per year as profit before tax, that is between 2 owners working on average 60+ hours per week each and that is a very good return for their first year. The business rates alone eat up £35K per year.

ScotsPine
2nd May 2003, 22:40
"do you mean typical ltd created with a sole purpose to avoid tax and charge premium for being a contractor?"

no...

AtW
2nd May 2003, 23:03
ah i dont like Germany, plus I need visa to travel etc. I moved from Wolves a few months ago to v.nice place in Brum - give me a shout next time you around this place, will buy you a beer for daring to face me in argument :) Get some good beer from Germany for me maybe? I will pay you in full. I'd like something that tastes like Caffreys or Murpheys, cheers

> PS as for £8k per week not being small, it is very small . It
> yields just over £85K per year as profit before tax, that is

sure it is, I work for company with 50mln+ per week turnover and very high profitability :D

> between 2 owners working on average 60+ hours per week
> each and that is a very good return for their first year. The
> business rates alone eat up £35K per year.

better than to be a "slave" aka employee, eh?

ScotsPine: I dont feel like fighting anyone recently, so peace man

ScotsPine
3rd May 2003, 09:45
"I dont feel like fighting anyone recently" ??????

i don't know what you mean. i said that i thought your observation was a good one and then asked for your ideas on advertising. i think maybe you've taken it the wrong way?

AtW
3rd May 2003, 11:25
yeah I thought you were sarcastic -- its harder to detect British sarcasm in writing than in person

sorry

LiamP
6th May 2003, 11:33
Do some research into what people would search for to get to your site or your competitors site

Simply optimise you web pages for google, to start use title tags and have your main keywords at the start of the tag.

go to a SEO forum, you can learn many useful tips at these sites and it will cost nothing, once you are in the top.5 for a search in google you will see the traffic come rushing in.

LiamP
9th May 2003, 15:21
if this is of any help

Google-Enabled Attribute Importance

Link Popularity - Links from other sites- Link and surrounding
text analysis&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 35%

Title- <TITLE>Keyword Phrase</TITLE>&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 25%

URL & File Name - keyword.url.com/- (http://keyword.url.com/-) www.keyword.co.uk/- (http://www.keyword.co.uk/-) url.tv/keyword_phrase.html 10% (http://url.tv/keyword_phrase.html 10%)

Heading Tags- <H1>Keyword Phrase</H1>- <H2>Ancillary Phrase</H2>&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 10%

Body Text&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 8%

Images- ALT text- File name&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 7%

On-Page Link Analysis - Link URL and file names- Link text (if text link)- Link ALT text (if image link)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 5%
Total Algorithm Score:&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 100%

AtW
11th May 2003, 12:29
Liam, where did you dig this info from? AFAIK PageRank is a strictly kept secret, and no one knows how exactly it works, especially with detailed %-tage breakdown as you have provided. Care to give reference?

JS
11th May 2003, 22:03
AtW,

I'm back. I can strongly recommend Dortmunder Union Export as a premium 'Loopy Juice'.

Just to let you know, for my latest client we decided to purchase 35mm slide advertising for 'U' rated films at two local cinemas. This targets the desired audience pretty much exactly, much better than could EVER be achieved by buying adwords from Google.

As for the search engine ranking algorithms - I thought YOU were supposed to be an expert, why do you need to look up references for such information? These results were obtained by reverse engineering to an approximation of the algorithms from known rankings.

Obviously you have not invested in a copy of 'Using Search Engines for Dummies', took me about 3 seconds to find out the reference for this particular info using Google.

AtW
12th May 2003, 00:48
SEO (search engine opts) is not my main speciality, where did I say I was expert at it? I asked for reference because I know that PageRank is closely guarded secret of Google and I was curious to where this info came from.

The reason I commented in the first place is because I do know Google's opts do work, however, I was not trying to present myself as a person who knows HOW to do that, I just said WHAT needs to be done.

> took me about 3 seconds to find out the reference for this
> particular info using Google.

I like to give people chance to provide reference to what they say ok?


> Just to let you know, for my latest client we decided to
> purchase 35mm slide advertising for 'U' rated films at two
> local cinemas. This targets the desired audience pretty
> much exactly, much better than could EVER be achieved
> by buying adwords from Google.

ok, and how do you measure success of that then? Do you have hard facts about sales that this ads will provide?

JS
12th May 2003, 21:12
>ok, and how do you measure success of that then?
Cannot measure it yet. The models are not even booked for the picture yet.

What you do to measure the campaign is quite simple, you measure the sales BEFORE the ad runs, then you measure the sales AFTER the ad runs. I assume you knew this and were attempting sarcasm?

Due to the nature of the business it is very easy to determine unique new customers, you can simply measure the number of these before and after, and then compare the sales trend to new customers before and after. Of course you need to factor in known seasonal fluctuations.

>Do you have hard facts about sales that this ads will >provide?

Yes. So do Pearl & Dean, The Cinema Advertising Agency, Carlton Screen Advertising and The Cinema Advertising Association. Yes, they have a vested interest in providing this information and making it good. However, unlike much(although not all) internet-based advertising the information is verified by independant ratings organisations such as Nielsen ratings and independant market researchers and is strictly controlled in both law and by industry regulatory bodies such as the ASA. There is also much independant marketing information available from magazines and websites. It is valuable, so you have to pay for it, invest in some!

>I like to give people chance to provide reference to what they say ok?

Given where it comes from he may NOT wish to post the address, especially if he is on a client site.

AtW
13th May 2003, 07:30
> What you do to measure the campaign is quite simple, you
> measure the sales BEFORE the ad runs, then you
> measure the sales AFTER the ad runs. I assume you knew
> this and were attempting sarcasm?

:rollin

your business must be so primitive that there is one influencing factor - your ad. Try that in real business where there are multiple revenue streams, with 100s of places that send customers to you!!! Once you actually start comparing ROI, you might find that your cinema ads are not that great - comparatively.

> Due to the nature of the business it is very easy to
> determine unique new customers, you can simply measure
> the number of these before and after, and then compare the
> sales trend to new customers before and after. Of course
> you need to factor in known seasonal fluctuations.

well, you have it easy. I worked for busienss where you'd have on and off line sales with on and offline ads, affiliates, stores etc all of which would affect sales in a very peculiar manner. This requires somewhat better methodology than just look at increase in sales before and after.


> Yes. So do Pearl & Dean, The Cinema Advertising Agency,
> Carlton Screen Advertising and The Cinema Advertising
> Association.

These people are anti-online, they have vested interest - as you said - in cinemas. They dont do detailed comparisons with google, they jsut fund "independent" researchs to show your sales increase.

> Given where it comes from he may NOT wish to post the
> address, especially if he is on a client site.

he can post it from home, if its publicly available info like you suggested then its okay to post it I guess?

JS
13th May 2003, 21:40
>Your business must be primitive.....

It is NOT my business, it is a client. It is quite simple, yes as are most SMALL businesses in this country, two owners and a few part time staff selling a single service from a single (soon to be two) location is NOT hugely complicated. Even given this there are several influencing factors seasonal variations for example, that is why you have to allow for them when counting your sales. If you want to know HOW to isolate them, visit amazon.co.uk and buy a book.

When the campaign runs, we will calculate ROI, then we will know. One thing we DO know is that you CANNOT accurately target the audience with a search engine.

>these people are anti-online
I quote from my earlier note "is strictly controlled in both law and by industry regulatory bodies such as the ASA."

> Finding the reference.
its www.adultwebmasterconsult...rithm.html (http://www.adultwebmasterconsultants.com/google_algorithm.html)
You may not wish to click the link from work.
However, bear in mind that the internet adult industry is consitently profitable across the board before you claim they don't know what they are doing.

AtW
13th May 2003, 23:30
ok, if its a small business with just one incoming client source - cinema then its all nice and easy. However, discussion in question focussed around WEB SITE. Web sites can have many different streams of visitors, be it search engine, email marketing, affiliates, articles, posts in news groups etc. The example that you've given does not fit that profile at all -- you are using simple company of your client that does not have problem of managing multiple mediums effectively.

> When the campaign runs, we will calculate ROI, then we
> will know. One thing we DO know is that you CANNOT
> accurately target the audience with a search engine.

As I said -- you are lucky you are dealing with just one event happening. Good for you.

> I quote from my earlier note "is strictly controlled in both
> law and by industry regulatory bodies such as the ASA."

being anti-online is not against the law, and it also does not break any ASA regulations. Most of old gits from the old economy are totally anti-online. The best they can do is to have a brochureware website and thats as far as most of them go. This is another story however.

> Finding the reference.

Thanks for the link, I have emailed it to my work address ( dont read this board from work), and I will make sure its distributed to appropriate people. I will withhold judgement on whether its correct or not, but one thing that I know is that PageRank from Google is propriatory and this article is a good guess at best.

> However, bear in mind that the internet adult industry is
> consitently profitable across the board before you claim
> they don't know what they are doing.

ah, urban myth. A friend of mine from States used to run a series of xxx websites from about 1997, he quit that a few years ago because revenues dropped to ridiculous levels. Many of existing sites are scams designed to ... scam.

Online porn is very fragmented consisting of very small private places often run by students who dont report any revenues _anywhere_. Most peple who pay for online porn dont exactly report that as well.

I am personally convinced that a good deal of alleged profits of adult oriented sites online are due to blatant scams with "free registrations" and small print that allows them to bill you 39.99 a month and its impossible to cancel it easily. "Success" of adult sites is often based on innovative techniques to fool Google and other search engines to get better positioning for a SHORT TIME. These techniques, sometimes very effective, all end up badly. Luckily for porn companies they don to care about customer satisfaction, attrition -- they just create new website and start it all over.

Successful? Possibly.

Replicateable for other online businesses? I think not.

JS
14th May 2003, 19:55
Well, we do seem to have gone of track a bit - hope the discussion has been entertaining to the lurkers, they probably ignored the thread long ago :D

Anyway, for a new, small, locally based website I still hold to the opinion, backed by experience with real small businesses, that offline offers a better bang for your buck.

So do many others:
www.maniactive.com/offlin...tising.htm (http://www.maniactive.com/offline_classified_advertising.htm)
advertising.about.com/lib...21100a.htm (http://advertising.about.com/library/weekly/aa121100a.htm)
www.drnunley.com/ARTCL35.htm (http://www.drnunley.com/ARTCL35.htm)
www.findmyhosting.com/web...ffline.htm (http://www.findmyhosting.com/web-resources/Drive-traffic/offline.htm)
oh, and Google too:
www.google.com/jobs/marke...#intl_spec (http://www.google.com/jobs/marketing.html#intl_spec)

As for Google's technology, if you are really interested - go here www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html (http://www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html)

AtW
14th May 2003, 20:15
well, I was not trying to suggest that local high street takeaway will benefit most from Google's adwords!!! Obviousyl there are limits to where its applicable! It seems to me that yuo are dealing with this sort of people, so your point of view does seem to be justified. However, I am personally convinced that almost every business can benefit from proper ecommerce strategy :)

peace

p.s. since you've clearly lost this argument on all points you do owe me a few good bottles of beer from Germany, I will pick it in Brum or Wolves at time of your choosing but not exceeding 3 months :)

JS
14th May 2003, 21:24
Obviously Russians have a different definition of the words 'Argument' and 'Lost'.

Here we would call this a discussion on the merits of two marketing methods. Both positions include online and offline advertising as valid methods, just different weightings.

You obviously have some experience in online marketing.
I have experience of both approaches and if I could show my clients that online marketing was the cost effective way to go then I would reccomend it every time. You see that way I could sell most of them a website, hosting and on-going online marketing where I (rather than the cinema) would make most of the profit too!

AtW
15th May 2003, 20:13
> Obviously Russians have a different definition of the
> words 'Argument' and 'Lost'.

We don't have the L word in our vocabulary ;)

> You obviously have some experience in online marketing.

yeah, you can say that

> I have experience of both approaches and if I could show
> my clients that online marketing was the cost effective way
> to go then I would reccomend it every time.

i am active pro-proponent of ecommerce however I do recognize role of offline things that can be made more powerful by being linked to online media.