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the guy with the bowtie
8th February 2007, 08:31
I had a conversation with a group of Local Authority workers yesterday. Interesting chat. All could comment with authority on their importance. This committee, that policy achievement, blah, blah, blah.

Once you scrape below the surface it was obvious to me they actually have no useful marketable skills whatsoever and would be close to unemployable in the real world.

There is a whole parallel universe out there where your ability to add value is irrelevant. It left me depressed.

I know from the Guardian that these people are on a good package with gold-plated pensions, comfortable working hours, no stress, jobs for life (unless you lower your trousers in the workplace and sing Rule Britannia)

It left me thinking, who is the fool ?

BoredBloke
8th February 2007, 09:13
I did a contract a while ago working at a public sector site and have to agree that I would not employ one of them. We had one guy who literally had to take pills to maintain his mood. We had another there who did his job so badly because he wanted them to sack him - but nobody would, they simply employed others to rectify his mistakes. His wife also worked there and would openly say that her husband was cr@p at his job. This same guy went in a sulk because he wasn't on the invite for a meeting with some suppliers. He wasn't on the invite becuase he wasn't needed. In the end they rescheduled the meeting for later that day so that this guy could go home and get his suit on. While in the meeting he said nothing and proved that leaving him off the original invite was the correct thing to do. There were two 'women' who in the 9 months we were on site stayed late 2 times. Jesus, did we ever hear the end of that.

The sad thing is that we are all paying for these muppets!

wendigo100
8th February 2007, 09:39
Where was that, Tony?

BoredBloke
8th February 2007, 10:03
Back oop north for an agency of the NHS. Don't want to give too many details though - I've worked for th DoH before, the Home office and benefits agency and they are all the same. Most seem to be wrapped up in thier own self importance to realise that nobody really gives a toss about their ability to get a memo out on time

wendigo100
8th February 2007, 10:12
I was lucky when I worked in the public services - I came into little contact with permies.

What I remember most about working with them is their holidays. You plan, get started, then suddenly and without warning they were on holiday for two weeks.

interested
8th February 2007, 12:18
I had a conversation with a group of Local Authority workers yesterday. Interesting chat. All could comment with authority on their importance. This committee, that policy achievement, blah, blah, blah.

Once you scrape below the surface it was obvious to me they actually have no useful marketable skills whatsoever and would be close to unemployable in the real world.

There is a whole parallel universe out there where your ability to add value is irrelevant. It left me depressed.

I know from the Guardian that these people are on a good package with gold-plated pensions, comfortable working hours, no stress, jobs for life (unless you lower your trousers in the workplace and sing Rule Britannia)

It left me thinking, who is the fool ?

I've worked both in central and local government as a contractor and I can confidently say that the public sector exists to keep vast numbers of otherwise totally unemployable people in a job; I haven't done the maths but it's probably cheaper to have them working and at least paying some taxes rather just having them on the dole. However the size of the public sector pensions liability is extremely worrying.

Bluebird
8th February 2007, 12:26
The only good thing about the public sector is that because the majority are so inept, it actually creates a huge market for us contractors to exploit.

Place I'm in at the mo, the management board is made up of people who started "at the bottom" when they were 16, they know the old paper based business inside out but don't know what computers look like - they are totally incapable of making a decision and employ consultants to do this for them so they've got a scapegoat.

There were loads of them today moaning that they would have to lose a couple of hours pay because of the snow and the Gvt Agency should credit them the hours !!!

expat
8th February 2007, 12:26
There is a whole parallel universe out there where your ability to add value is irrelevant. It left me depressed.

I know from the Guardian that these people are on a good package with gold-plated pensions, comfortable working hours, no stress, jobs for lifeAnd you'd better get on with working to add value, because you'll need to save a lot, because when you're trying to retire. they will be retired and your mone will be taken in whatever increasing amounts may be needed to pay their pensions.

Comfortable working hours? Could be worse, when the French government introduced the 35-hour week the civil servants went on strike. They had no intention of working that many hours.

expat
8th February 2007, 12:28
There were loads of them today moaning that they would have to lose a couple of hours pay because of the snow and the Gvt Agency should credit them the hours !!!Why?

Bluebird
8th February 2007, 12:39
Why?

exactly

Buffoon
8th February 2007, 12:43
I haven't done the maths but it's probably cheaper to have them working and at least paying some taxes rather just having them on the dole. However the size of the public sector pensions liability is extremely worrying.
Where do you thing the money comes from to pay wages and benefits - the same place. If they pay tax it only means a minor discount on their cost. The pension liability is a BIG problem. Then there is the damage they do with the money they have at their disposal as part of their jobs.

It is far, far cheaper to keep them on benefits.

gingerjedi
8th February 2007, 12:48
There were loads of them today moaning that they would have to lose a couple of hours pay because of the snow and the Gvt Agency should credit them the hours !!!

They do here they just get their boss to fiddle the hours, the same happens if the trains are late any day of the week for whatever reason and don't get me started on the amount of sick leave and holidays they take, do you get the queens birthday off? Paid? The MoD does, free child care? The MoD does, 5 days extra holiday after 2 years service? The MoD does... the list goes on.

My (permy) boss said yesterday that if I was late because of the snow he would let me book for a full day even if it took me 4 hours to get in! Different world mate... different world. When I first started working here I was reading '1984' in my lunch breaks and the similarities are quite frightening, everyone is mollycoddled in this artificial world they call work.

Trouble is I have been here so long I don’t think I could cope with the real world myself and I am hanging on grimly worried about whether I will get descent gig ever again.

interested
8th February 2007, 12:57
Where do you thing the money comes from to pay wages and benefits - the same place. If they pay tax it only means a minor discount on their cost. The pension liability is a BIG problem. Then there is the damage they do with the money they have at their disposal as part of their jobs.

It is far, far cheaper to keep them on benefits.

I'm not sure cheaper was the right word. In terms of a simple calculation - is x cheaper than y then benefits might look cheaper. 'Better' might be the word I'm looking for.

Essentially my point is - is it 'better' for the country to have a million people on benefits, or those same million people working, albeit paid for by the state/taxes?

DodgyAgent
8th February 2007, 13:00
They also give the transport system something to do after 9.00 a.m and before 4.00 pm

xoggoth
8th February 2007, 13:01
They are rather good at strikes too

http://www.xoggoth.org/pages/bloggoth8.html#public

wantacontract
8th February 2007, 13:59
public sector is where i want to be in 10 years time.....

low stress, low expectations...holidays and pensions....pay won't be amazing... :banana:

but knowing me, i'll probably still moan...!

gingerjedi
8th February 2007, 14:21
pay won't be amazing... :banana:


You're right there its fecking awfull but if all you want is beer money untill retirement you can't go wrong.

wendigo100
8th February 2007, 14:32
You're right there its fecking awfull but if all you want is beer money untill retirement you can't go wrong.What a waste of a life public sector permying must be!

andy
8th February 2007, 14:39
What a waste of a life public sector permying must be!
waste of sperm and egg

expat
8th February 2007, 14:39
public sector is where i want to be in 10 years time.....

low stress, low expectations...holidays and pensions....pay won't be amazing... :banana:

but knowing me, i'll probably still moan...!God, what a great plan, wish I'd thought of it when I was young: a few years contracting, save all your money. Then the rest of your career in the public sector, no stress while your savings build compound interest. Retire young, secure, and not broken by years of toil.

SandyDown
8th February 2007, 14:41
What a waste of a life public sector permying must be!

No not a waste of life at all, public sector employees have plenty of life, they have too much life, family related occasions, and other numerous things to do that they can't fit in work in their life. Work is a very very tiny inconvenient part of a public sector's life

gingerjedi
8th February 2007, 14:42
What a waste of a life public sector permying must be!

It depends on what you want out of life, if you're not motivated by money and want maximum r&r time then its easy street.

On the other side of the coin I see many people work themselves into an early grave chasing the $$$'s

To be honest though if you do it right contracting can be the best of both worlds.

DodgyAgent
8th February 2007, 15:33
There are a lot of very good public sector workers out there. There would be more if we made them accountable and allowed them to be paid their worth. Instead the liberals bang on about how wonderful these "poor hardworking people " are thus making them feel underpriviliged and hated.

sasguru
8th February 2007, 15:46
As all professional private sector jobs are going to be outsourced, our destiny is to work for the public sector, looking after each other's needs.

HTH

SandyDown
8th February 2007, 15:52
As all professional private sector jobs are going to be outsourced, our destiny is to work for the public sector, looking after each other's needs.

HTH



OK - I admit it a friend of mine who is recruiting for a consultancy was sent on a spying mission to check out Cr@p-Gemini's (btw: they run the HMRC website) SAP recruitment fair last night - the head of sector was adamant that the whole of government work will be outsourced to India.
India is the future he said .. the funny thing is almost 95% of applicant who came to the fair are Indians. I drank the free wine and ate all the free food and got the gift bac (had a free memory stick in it) and left.

Anyway my point is all govenment work is to be outsourced too.

andy
8th February 2007, 15:57
I am in one of the big consultancies and the standard practice seems to be to bag multi million pound contracts and then get them done cheaply in India unless the customer absolutely insists that work has to be done in UK.

wendigo100
8th February 2007, 16:10
It depends on what you want out of life, if you're not motivated by money and want maximum r&r time then its easy street.

On the other side of the coin I see many people work themselves into an early grave chasing the $$$'s

To be honest though if you do it right contracting can be the best of both worlds.Yes, I was responding more to the comment: "its fecking awfull but if all you want is beer money untill retirement you can't go wrong."

In the past I've seen many permies in the private sector with this sort of attitude - the hours of nine-to-five are only a sort of penance in order to pick up their paycheck. Maybe I'm wrong but I just assumed it is more widespread in the public sector.

For people to write off a third of their waking life seems bizarre, although in most cases I guess they don't know how to change it, and those in cushy numbers in the public sector aren't going to get the kick up the arse they need to find out.

gingerjedi
8th February 2007, 16:17
All the civil servants on the IT support section here are moving sideways into other civil service posts rather than be outsourced by the 'Atlas consortium' (EDS mainly) as they don't want to lose their pensions and other benefits.

The Farmer
8th February 2007, 16:46
All the civil servants on the IT support section here are moving sideways into other civil service posts rather than be outsourced by the 'Atlas consortium' (EDS mainly) as they don't want to lose their pensions and other benefits.


Abbeywood per chance??

gingerjedi
8th February 2007, 16:49
Abbeywood per chance??

shit... I've been rumbled again! I'm the big bloke with the tash and news paper with the holes in it that sits in the corner looking shifty.

shoes
8th February 2007, 17:00
In the past I've seen many permies in the private sector with this sort of attitude - the hours of nine-to-five are only a sort of penance in order to pick up their paycheck. Maybe I'm wrong but I just assumed it is more widespread in the public sector.

Yes I've seen this bizarre attitude in both private and public sector. If you haven't suffered you haven't earnt your pay cheque. Pay is a reward for staring at a screen for the hours on your contract of employment. Sat near one guy one time who did exactly that, just sat there maybe surfing the web sometimes but mostly just staring at the screen, he would leave bang on 5pm, could set your watch by it. He gave me one hell of a glare one day, I remember working my arse off all day while he sat there gormless, then when I left at 4.57 instead of 5 or later I got tutted and glared at. Had me chuckling all the way to my car. Nutters.

I think it must stem from childhood, reward for suffering, can't leave the class till teacher says, that kind of thing.

The Farmer
8th February 2007, 17:11
shit... I've been rumbled again! I'm the big bloke with the tash and news paper with the holes in it that sits in the corner looking shifty.

Oh right!

I thought you would be fat, ginger and would be walking around with a light sabre humming the tune to star wars

:banana:

gingerjedi
9th February 2007, 09:42
Oh right!

I thought you would be fat, ginger and would be walking around with a light sabre humming the tune to star wars

:banana:

Well... I'm not fat!

daaa daa du du du daa daa....

Churchill
9th February 2007, 09:43
Well... I'm not fat!

daaa daa du du du daa daa....

I thought you would be "big boned", ginger and would be walking around with a light sabre humming the tune to star wars

The Farmer
9th February 2007, 10:16
Oh right!

I thought you would be fat, ginger and would be walking around with a light sabre humming the tune to star wars

:banana:


And you did say "big"

gingerjedi
9th February 2007, 10:20
I'm just trying to put you off the scent, you could be anybody... a permy spy sent on here to infiltrate and weed out those lazy ass contractors??!!

daaa daa du du du daa daa....

I am still not fat... no really!

The Farmer
9th February 2007, 10:22
I'm just trying to put you off the scent, you could be anybody... a permy spy sent on here to infiltrate and weed out those lazy ass contractors??!!

daaa daa du du du daa daa....

I am still not fat... no really!


You are an EDS "consultant" and I claim my £5

gingerjedi
9th February 2007, 10:26
You are an EDS "consultant" and I claim my £5

How dare you!!!

I maybe in 3-4 months time if I play my cards right!

The Farmer
9th February 2007, 10:27
How dare you!!!

I maybe in 3-4 months time if I play my cards right!

:rollin:

andy
9th February 2007, 10:37
How dare you!!!

I maybe in 3-4 months time if I play my cards right!
why on earth would anybody wanna be EDS consultant

gingerjedi
9th February 2007, 10:56
------------------

HarryPearce
9th February 2007, 11:22
There are a lot of very good public sector workers out there. There would be more if we made them accountable and allowed them to be paid their worth. Instead the liberals bang on about how wonderful these "poor hardworking people " are thus making them feel underpriviliged and hated.


Some sense at last! Civil Sepents are not just there to push paper around meaninglessly. I won't defend them all but who do think sorts out the bird flu incident, keeps you safe in bed while terrorists plan, etc? Some don't see their families for months on end if they're deployed out in Iraq or Afghanistan, mind you one who came back was made a CBE (MBE?) for work in Iraq organising the Iraq poice force immediately after Bagdhad fell, aged mid thirties. How many contractors can come home from work at the end of a day and know they've done something worthwhile beyond earning a wadge of cash.

If you envy the pension then save the cash you earn and take a sensible salary.

The Farmer
9th February 2007, 11:29
Some sense at last! Civil Sepents are not just there to push paper around meaninglessly. I won't defend them all but who do think sorts out the bird flu incident, keeps you safe in bed while terrorists plan, etc? Some don't see their families for months on end if they're deployed out in Iraq or Afghanistan, mind you one who came back was made a CBE (MBE?) for work in Iraq organising the Iraq poice force immediately after Bagdhad fell, aged mid thirties. How many contractors can come home from work at the end of a day and know they've done something worthwhile beyond earning a wadge of cash.

If you envy the pension then save the cash you earn and take a sensible salary.


No matter how much or how little they do they will schimf, moan, drip and stamp their feet at a rate that is disproportionate to the true overall output.

:tantrum:

HTH

gingerjedi
9th February 2007, 11:42
The pension is good and the salary is crap, its a trade off.

The Farmer
9th February 2007, 11:45
The pension is good and the salary is crap, its a trade off.

You are a public sector, permi infiltraitor and I claim my £5.

DodgyAgent
9th February 2007, 11:51
Some sense at last! Civil Sepents are not just there to push paper around meaninglessly. I won't defend them all but who do think sorts out the bird flu incident, keeps you safe in bed while terrorists plan, etc? Some don't see their families for months on end if they're deployed out in Iraq or Afghanistan, mind you one who came back was made a CBE (MBE?) for work in Iraq organising the Iraq poice force immediately after Bagdhad fell, aged mid thirties. How many contractors can come home from work at the end of a day and know they've done something worthwhile beyond earning a wadge of cash.

If you envy the pension then save the cash you earn and take a sensible salary.

I would not go that far. The public sector is run primarily for the benefit of those who run it, secondly for the benefit of those who work in it and lastly for those who use it. The fact that they occasionally do things right is usually by sheer chance or that those who run it (HM govt) may lose power.

The dynamics that make the private sector work so efficiently by comparison (consumer choice and accountability) do not apply to the public sector. The public sector gets away with its restrictive monopolies because the services it delivers are needed by everyone and not just those who can afford it (which begs the question if food is a basic necessity why does its supply mechanism via the private sector work so efficiently?).

The market economy is crudely and efficiently measured by money, which is why the public sector monopolies exist. We are fooled into believing that they provide vital services that people cannot themselves afford. Whilst this may be a fair point the reality is that the public sector is a scandalous failure. What is worse the more it fails, the bigger it gets in trying to plaster over the problems that it creates in the first place (most criminals are recipients of public sector educations for example)

Applying private sector dynamics to public sector services is the challenge that government should be engaging, but they dont (how often do we hear anyone discussing a voucher system to give people choice over education for example?).

The reasons they dont are because New Labour rely heavily upon the status quo for their power base. Nor do they have any real desire to change anything because the welfare industry for example, not only employs people who support labour but also those who live off benefits support labour.

The conservatives are cowed by the twisted "morality" presumption that the public sector/welfare system is somehow benign. If they are seen to try and dismantle what is in actual fact an evil system they will be accused of cruelty by the huge public sector machine.

That my friends is why no one votes for any political party. They all offer us much the same, i.e useless public services.

Bring on the revolution!

The Farmer
9th February 2007, 11:56
DA.

I like you.

Now, off for a lie-down

Lucifer Box
9th February 2007, 12:00
The pension is good and the salary is crap, its a trade off.
That used to be the case. Now the pension is good and the salary is good too, which is why we are looking at serious financial problems for the country when they all start retiring at 50 on full pensions.

HarryPearce
9th February 2007, 12:04
Dodgy,



That my friends is why no one votes for any political party. They all offer us much the same, i.e useless public services.

Bring on the revolution!

Tell that to the ambulance or fire crew who attended 7/7. Talk to the wife of Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull or stand at the grave of L/Cpl Mathew Ford of 45 Commando Royal Marines.

The Farmer
9th February 2007, 12:10
Dodgy,

Tell that to the ambulance or fire crew who attended 7/7. Talk to the wife of Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull or stand at the grave of L/Cpl Mathew Ford of 45 Commando Royal Marines.

Front line men of action sent by back office paper-pushers...

to whom I, for one, am refering.

A low grade civil servant holds more power and sway than a middle ranking military NCO.

I hope I have made my point. :tantrum:

DodgyAgent
9th February 2007, 13:11
Some sense at last! Civil Sepents are not just there to push paper around meaninglessly. I won't defend them all but who do think sorts out the bird flu incident, keeps you safe in bed while terrorists plan, etc? Some don't see their families for months on end if they're deployed out in Iraq or Afghanistan, mind you one who came back was made a CBE (MBE?) for work in Iraq organising the Iraq poice force immediately after Bagdhad fell, aged mid thirties. How many contractors can come home from work at the end of a day and know they've done something worthwhile beyond earning a wadge of cash.

If you envy the pension then save the cash you earn and take a sensible salary.


The more I look at this the funnier and sadder it gets. Either this guy is a NL stooge or it just shows how we have all been brainwashed into acceptance of this Orwellian state. It is interesting how we are made to thank our wonderful and glorious state for saving us against these evil terrorists and Iraqis, yet one important point is missed. Who is it that has created this (and so many of the other) problem in the first place???. Immigration and multiculturalism have been encouraged for no other reason than to please the leaders of our political parties. And I am pretty sure that the recipient of the CBE is a labour donor rather than a hero.

DodgyAgent
9th February 2007, 13:16
Dodgy,



Tell that to the ambulance or fire crew who attended 7/7. Talk to the wife of Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull or stand at the grave of L/Cpl Mathew Ford of 45 Commando Royal Marines.

My point exactly. Amongst the cr*p in the public sector there are the occasional fantastic workers in the front line of the public services. It is off the backs of these people that our leaders cynically exploit and use as reasons to waste money and hide incompetence. The worse thing is that the true heroes of the public sector end up being treated and rewarded in the same way as the vast numbers of incompetents. In the private sector (and I am not referring to monopoly private sector businesses such as rail and others) these people would be promoted/savoured and rewarded according to their deeds, whereas in the public sector incompetence is ignored.

BigPhill
9th February 2007, 13:16
They're not very good (generally) because at least with the Civil Service they all have to start as an AA on £8K per annum (may be a bit more now) and the chances of moving up the career ladder are slim and it takes a long time, therefore not really an incentive to employ good people hence the only ones that will do it will be those that can't get a job elsewhere.

HarryPearce
9th February 2007, 14:00
They're not very good (generally) because at least with the Civil Service they all have to start as an AA on £8K per annum (may be a bit more now) and the chances of moving up the career ladder are slim and it takes a long time, therefore not really an incentive to employ good people hence the only ones that will do it will be those that can't get a job elsewhere.

Speaking from experience I assume. It is certainly true that base pay is atrocious, though only when you're talking about administrative areas of the Civil Servic, but the rest is not true. Promotion is possible and does occur but under a fair and equal system. The Peter principle is not the overriding means of climbing the greasy pole.

The Civil Service covers a huge gamut of careers besides the admin side which seems to get all the attention. Try http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/Page7.html http://www.dstl.gov.uk/careers/profile01.php or http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/ for example, all are part of the Civil Service and most of whom are back-office boys and girls.

When you damm so heavily those in the public sector you're not merely damming paper pushers.

DodgyAgent
9th February 2007, 14:22
.

When you damm so heavily those in the public sector you're not merely damming paper pushers.

That is exactly how defenders of the public sector try to block criticism, Polly Toynbee is a prime example of a slavish defender of the services. The fact that she and the other apologists never utter a single word of criticism , shows in itself that they know just how poor they are. You/she et al trot out some anecdotal example of someone in the public sector who does something well, or a piece of (one in a million) legislation that is good, or a department even that is brave and efficient and you use this to stifle criticism or justify the huge waste and inefficiency that is endemic in the rest of the public sector. It wont wash here. If we are paying for public services then we are entitled to expect EVERY part of the public sector to perform as efficiently as the most effective businesses.
The only way to achieve this is to introduce consumer choice.

It is interesting that over 1 million children did not go to school yesterday for a variety of pi** poor excuses. Had the schools not been paid for that day then I would bet good money that none of them would have been closed. This showed just how good the public sector is at shutting off a service.

At my local station it is not uncommon for some of the ticket offices to be unattended despite huge queues. The ticket machines have also not been accepting credit cards. Now if there were two competing companies who got paid a commission for the tickets that they sell then you would see an astonoshing change in performance.

shaunbhoy
9th February 2007, 14:29
Spot on Dodgy. The whole system is riddled with inefficiency and deadwood from top to bottom. "Why employ 1 person when 3 can do the job equally haplessly?" ought to be the Civil Service Motto, if it isn't already.
Root and Branch reform long overdue for the whole kitten caboodle.
:tantrum: :tantrum:

Churchill
9th February 2007, 14:34
Spot on Dodgy. The whole system is riddled with inefficiency and deadwood from top to bottom. "Why employ 1 person when 3 can do the job equally haplessly?" ought to be the Civil Service Motto, if it isn't already.
Root and Branch reform long overdue for the whole kitten caboodle.
:tantrum: :tantrum:

Some fecking ex-squaddie you are.
:yay:

shaunbhoy
9th February 2007, 14:35
Some fecking ex-squaddie you are.
:yay:


Dead right churchill, I sure am!
;)

Churchill
9th February 2007, 14:36
Dead right churchill, I sure am!
;)

Care to explain the origins of "Kit and Caboodle"?

shaunbhoy
9th February 2007, 14:39
Care to explain the origins of "Kit and Caboodle"?

Something to do with the Yank Army apparently. Is there a point to you asking, or were you just being a pedant as per?

Churchill
9th February 2007, 14:49
Something to do with the Yank Army apparently. Is there a point to you asking, or were you just being a pedant as per?

Not related to beasts of a feline nature then, eh?

DodgyAgent
9th February 2007, 14:50
Care to explain the origins of "Kit and Caboodle"?

As they say in the army "Kit off and Canoodle" :)

shaunbhoy
9th February 2007, 14:51
Not related to beasts of a feline nature then, eh?

It was a play on words.........ish. Poetic licence and all that.
:music:

Anyway, moving swiftly on...............

DodgyAgent
9th February 2007, 14:53
Anyway, moving swiftly on...............

As I said to the missus last nite

wendigo100
9th February 2007, 20:07
At my local station it is not uncommon for some of the ticket offices to be unattended despite huge queues. The ticket machines have also not been accepting credit cards. Now if there were two competing companies who got paid a commission for the tickets that they sell then you would see an astonoshing change in performance.The railways will always be an expensive basket case.