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opt in, opt out!!

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    opt in, opt out!!

    I still can't seem to get my head around this. Agents seem to know what it is, but don't really follow it.

    An agent called me up, organised the interview, I went to interview, got the gig, now we start talking contract. Although I know it's not a biggy, but only now are we talking about opting in or out.

    I thought they should be asking if we want to opt in, opt out prior to "interview"
    threenine.co.uk
    Cultivate, Develop & Sustain Innovation

    #2
    Originally posted by cykophysh39
    I still can't seem to get my head around this. Agents seem to know what it is, but don't really follow it.

    An agent called me up, organised the interview, I went to interview, got the gig, now we start talking contract. Although I know it's not a biggy, but only now are we talking about opting in or out.

    I thought they should be asking if we want to opt in, opt out prior to "interview"
    Exactly. If you have already been introduced to the client you are automatically opted-in, regardless of what the agency says. You have to agree to opt-out before being introduced to the client.
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      #3
      Well that's the idea, but the rules are a bit ambiguous, and the agencies seem to be taking an extreme interpretation. "Introduced to the client" is the key - we alwyas assumed that was when the CV went in, but there is now a school of thought that it is when you turn up at the client's door. DTI aren't any help either.

      The other problem is that the regs are actually drafted for the Office Angels temps, not proper contractors, and they don't normally get interviewed, they just appear.

      PCG is having a bit of a debate about it, and hopefully we'll get a better answer. Safest bet is to opt out right from the start and jump back in if you want to any time up to starting work.

      And whatever else you do, you don't ever sign any agency opt-out pro formas, which often contain other bits you don't want in your contract. Write your own, along the lines of "Mr Nobody and Mr Nobody's Co Ltd do not wish the agency regulations to apply to any contract with DodgyAgency PLC"
      Blog? What blog...?

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        #4
        You're right. You can't 'opt in' because you're in to start with. No opting is required. You either can opt out (except you can't now because it's too late), or not opt out.

        The best bit is when they call it "opting out of IR35".

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          #5
          my head aches!!

          I still don't really know what I'm opting in or out of!!
          This the first gig I'm doing with an agency, I usually have just gone direct to client, with a PCG contract, or have contracted overseas
          threenine.co.uk
          Cultivate, Develop & Sustain Innovation

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            #6
            Originally posted by cykophysh39
            my head aches!!

            I still don't really know what I'm opting in or out of!!
            It's the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003

            It's designed to protect permatemps. If you find your accidently opted in by not doing anything, then it's not always a bad thing as you will gain certain rights and protections. For example you can't be prevented from working direct to the client after the contract ends.

            If you opt out, then you are (arguably) in a better position regarding IR35. You can only opt out if you are somehow going through a limited co. - either your own or someone elses.
            It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. www.areyoupopular.mobi

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              #7
              Teh agency reguations were a DTI intiiaitve to stop some major temping agwencies taking the wotsit out of their PAYE employees, byu ensuring things like right to payment, minimal handcuff and a whole pile of legal support and care issues, like ensuring references right to work and that kind of thing.. Becuase 90% of this didn't apply to the average freelance contractor, and the bits that did made it harder to persuade Hector that you wren't some kind of temporary employee, PCG fought for and won the option to step completely outside the regulations. That is what is known as the opt out.

              Basically, becuase opting out saves the agency a lot of effort, you should be able to get a more IR35-friendly contract as a quid pro quo. If you opt in, it has no affect on IR35, it does mean you will get paid even if the agency isn't, and there is a lower limit on handcuff clauses. You'll also get asked a lot more pointlessly stupid questions like references for three years and so on. I think the opt-out benefits outweigh the opt-in ones myself, but others of a more timid nature seem to disagree.

              As for the agencies, if you are opted in they have to do more work for their money. Shame...
              Blog? What blog...?

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                #8
                ...and I guess if they let you opt out and give you an IR35 friendly contract even though technically it's too late, then they take the rap for breaking the law.
                Last edited by oraclesmith; 15 June 2007, 16:12.
                It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. www.areyoupopular.mobi

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by cykophysh39
                  my head aches!!

                  I still don't really know what I'm opting in or out of!!
                  This the first gig I'm doing with an agency, I usually have just gone direct to client, with a PCG contract, or have contracted overseas
                  Best way to understand it's relevance to you is read the title "Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 "

                  Aka it's all about rules and regs for agencies not contractors, there really is no downside to opting in as a contractor and a quite few upsides if you don't normally do hard negotiations with your contracts, large portions of standard agency contracts become invalid if opted in while if you opt out it gives agencies more freedom to screw you over with the contract terms ( also while many agencies claim opting out puts you either completely or partially outside IR35 this is total crap, one has nothing to do with the other)

                  From what I understand initially there was going to be no opt out at all but due to a very small group of contractors operating in a very different way from normal IT contractors the PGC pushed for the whole opt out thing and tbh I really wish they had not because the amount of confusion and bulltulip they created has certainly not been worth the hassle

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Opting in seems to mean that the agent will have to do some work. Opting out means that they can skip it.

                    As a consequence, some agencies will try and "persuade" you to opt out - my current gig they offered a contract that was incredibly IR35 unfriendly, and said that if I wanted a better one, then I should opt out instead. It was only when I said that I would walk and let the end client know why, that they even offered to discuss making changes to the contract...
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