Ethical Investment & Foreign Policy

[TinTin]

A few days ago, there was a huge uproar on the forum about BAE and their 'generosity' towards the Saudis. I agree to a certain extend but this is another example of British madness. We castigate our own people and companies, yet we allow foreign crooks to come in, trade and invest in our land and stockmarkets.
Example 1. Who is to say that most of the 'funds' behind the so-called 'private equity' firms- attempting lately to buy everything in sight - don't come from money-laundering? Names like the guy behind the West Ham Argentine players' transfers and his mates - ex-Iranians and Arabs - regularly feature in the financial pages.
Example 2. One of the notorious Russian 'self-made' billionaires (whose request for extradition by his own country has been turned down) is also given citizenship, free hand to criticise Putin and his former benefactors and MI6 'membership' - he regularly features in panel discussions on the BBC.
Example 3. Former Thai PM (subject also to an extradition request from Thailand) is allowed to stay here as a 'refugee', bought property and was about to buy a footbal club.
What has this country become of lately?

[AtW]

In Example 2 you show complete lack of clue, basically anyone who does not know well Russian affairs should not even speak about them in definitive terms: this country has got long tradition of giving asylum to people, who very rarely happened to be rich too, that guy is not given citizenship and in fact I am pretty certain the Govt won't give him citizenship even when he will become eligible for it - he can critisize Putin as much as he wants: this democracy and Putin is not even citizen or resident of this country, and don't get this MI6 crap into it.

It is one thing to commit a crime (give bribe) and another take money from someone who may well be criminal - innocent until proven guilty, and given that court systems do not exactly offer fair trial in Russia or Thailand (there was military coup there in case you did not notice - the guy was PM and as it always happens coup people say previous Govt was bad), so you can't say definitively that these people are criminals, no idea about Thai PM but money from that Russian chap are certainly suspect and no normal person would take them.

But, problem is that this country and West in general started going downhill ages ago when it was deemed that making real things like cars, clothes, cuttlery, pots - all those things that were aweing the world better than American smart bombs in Iraq now are being made in 3rd world, practically this means UK's economy is that of service - accountants, lawyers, McDonalds people, the City and others - but who really makes real stuff that is worth money? Less and less of those remain - I think out of Germany, France and UK, it is the UK that more foolishly gave away all the real production to the 3rd world.

So we have situation here where a footballer earns in a week more than cancer research scientist in a year, stuff made for pennies with slave labour in 3rd world is sold here for many pounds, houses prices go through the roof as if this is Eldorado, very few real things are made here for export, so once you got addicted to this kind of economy you start playing financial bullsh1t games and since you are hooked on it you need any kind of money - you need people buying clubs, making dodgy IPOs etc.

I like this country though - people are very good, just I think it is very shortsighted of what recent Govts did to this country.

[wendigo100]

A few days ago, there was a huge uproar on the forum about BAE and their 'generosity' towards the Saudis.

No, most of us don't mind dodgy dealing. It happens.

The uproar is about Saint Tony Blair, who slated the sleazy Tories in his campaign to enter number 10, proving to be just as sleazy himself. The real world is knocking very loudly on his particular door.

[sasguru]

In Example 2 you show complete lack of clue, basically anyone who does not know well Russian affairs should not even speak about them in definitive terms: this country has got long tradition of giving asylum to people, who very rarely happened to be rich too, that guy is not given citizenship and in fact I am pretty certain the Govt won't give him citizenship even when he will become eligible for it - he can critisize Putin as much as he wants: this democracy and Putin is not even citizen or resident of this country, and don't get this MI6 crap into it.

It is one thing to commit a crime (give bribe) and another take money from someone who may well be criminal - innocent until proven guilty, and given that court systems do not exactly offer fair trial in Russia or Thailand (there was military coup there in case you did not notice - the guy was PM and as it always happens coup people say previous Govt was bad), so you can't say definitively that these people are criminals, no idea about Thai PM but money from that Russian chap are certainly suspect and no normal person would take them.

But, problem is that this country and West in general started going downhill ages ago when it was deemed that making real things like cars, clothes, cuttlery, pots - all those things that were aweing the world better than American smart bombs in Iraq now are being made in 3rd world, practically this means UK's economy is that of service - accountants, lawyers, McDonalds people, the City and others - but who really makes real stuff that is worth money? Less and less of those remain - I think out of Germany, France and UK, it is the UK that more foolishly gave away all the real production to the 3rd world.

So we have situation here where a footballer earns in a week more than cancer research scientist in a year, stuff made for pennies with slave labour in 3rd world is sold here for many pounds, houses prices go through the roof as if this is Eldorado, very few real things are made here for export, so once you got addicted to this kind of economy you start playing financial bullsh1t games and since you are hooked on it you need any kind of money - you need people buying clubs, making dodgy IPOs etc.

I like this country though - people are very good, just I think it is very shortsighted of what recent Govts did to this country.

Bloody hell, atw - you might not be a total twat after all.

[Churchill]

In Example 2 you show complete lack of clue, basically anyone who does not know well Russian affairs should not even speak about them in definitive terms: this country has got long tradition of giving asylum to people, who very rarely happened to be rich too, that guy is not given citizenship and in fact I am pretty certain the Govt won't give him citizenship even when he will become eligible for it - he can critisize Putin as much as he wants: this democracy and Putin is not even citizen or resident of this country, and don't get this MI6 crap into it.

It is one thing to commit a crime (give bribe) and another take money from someone who may well be criminal - innocent until proven guilty, and given that court systems do not exactly offer fair trial in Russia or Thailand (there was military coup there in case you did not notice - the guy was PM and as it always happens coup people say previous Govt was bad), so you can't say definitively that these people are criminals, no idea about Thai PM but money from that Russian chap are certainly suspect and no normal person would take them.

But, problem is that this country and West in general started going downhill ages ago when it was deemed that making real things like cars, clothes, cuttlery, pots - all those things that were aweing the world better than American smart bombs in Iraq now are being made in 3rd world, practically this means UK's economy is that of service - accountants, lawyers, McDonalds people, the City and others - but who really makes real stuff that is worth money? Less and less of those remain - I think out of Germany, France and UK, it is the UK that more foolishly gave away all the real production to the 3rd world.

So we have situation here where a footballer earns in a week more than cancer research scientist in a year, stuff made for pennies with slave labour in 3rd world is sold here for many pounds, houses prices go through the roof as if this is Eldorado, very few real things are made here for export, so once you got addicted to this kind of economy you start playing financial bullsh1t games and since you are hooked on it you need any kind of money - you need people buying clubs, making dodgy IPOs etc.

I like this country though - people are very good, just I think it is very shortsighted of what recent Govts did to this country.

Bravo!!!

[TinTin]

F'n hell AtW - your English has improved greatly!

I do disagree with you on 2 and other points, however you have made your point almost eloquently. Mine was that we have become so desperate to prop up an economy which (unlike France, Germany, USA, Japan) is built not on solid goods production, but on the property and services bubble -which can burst at any time. As you yourself know, we are doing our best to kill the IT & service sector, so we'll soon be left with just the property 'boom'.
Also unlike the leaders of the 4 countries that I mentioned, ours do not stand up for their own people - which is even worse.

[AtW]

The only hope IMO, is that it will hit the fan soon before older generation of people who knew how to work hard and smart dies out: young generation that is growing up right now do not seem to appreciate how crap this world is and take life for granted.

On 2nd point you are totally wrong, even giving you discount on that you are not Russian, still - I read most of UK newspapers and information that they publish there on this matter is sufficient to draw fairly good conclusion on the matter, something that you failed to make.

Yes, getting better with that English thingy, on these topics however I tend to lose my concentration and write with the heart rather than head

[AtW]

Spod and sas, thanks - I should have spent more time checking spellign and grammer though, it would have allowed to represent my view better, but I think you got the gist of it.

[TinTin]

Well done mate

AtW - you've done really well mate coming here with what I remember a few years ago just basic English. You are obviously a geek when it comes to SKA and otehr things I know nothing about.
On the subject of Russia, I dare say I am an admirer of Putin. If only Blair could stand up for his country like he does. He's brought Russia back from the brink of collapse to what is now a formidable force that USA can not afford to ignore. Look on the so-called shields that NATO wanted to put in former Eastern Europe. Dropped it after the G8 summit - replaced by a former Soviet system in Ajerbaijan. Putin and whoever succeeds him will always get his way. That's how Churchill, De Gaulle and others were: single-minded and obstinate when it came to national pride.

[AtW]

Thanks for kind words, but if you admirer of Putin then you are a seriously misinformed, a complete retard or just paid by them.

So, you think Putin brought Russia from the brink of collapse? Ok, look at the following chart:

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif

It shows crude oil prices and by extension price for Russian gas that is typically linked to price of oil.

1. Note how decline in price of oil facilitated crash of USSR - in early 80-s it was "golden" time when all seemed well, but then it all crashed - this is because all the currency USSR could earn came from oil and as you can see prices dropped. This continued to be the case through all 90s.

2. Note how even further drop in oil price in 1998 caused major collapse in Russia of currency and everything else: it was at that time I decided to leave the country for good.

3. Putin comes to power in late 1999 - a few houses in Moscow get blown up, blamed on Chechens, but in other place service FSB members caught with explosives that were the same as used in Moscow - they later claimed analysis was wrong. A lot of people who tried to investigate it were killed or died in mysterious ways: one of them (an MP) had what now appears to be the same symptoms as Litvinenko had. Officials in Russia refuse to allow analysis of his body or open invesgitation.

4. Price of oil raises, but Putin keeps low profile - he is quietly positioning his people in key places, getting rid of people who supported previous president: independent TV stations, newspapers get either closer or taken over by the state. Berezovsky - the man you mentioned is forced to leave the country and claim asylum in the UK because he was about to get imprisoned just like others did.

5. Price of oil continues to raise - Putin is playing smart game allowing Americans to get stuck in Iraq, clever sales of anti-aircraft missiles and nuclear reactors to Iran help keep region tense: price of oil is as high as before.

So, apart from fueling the war the world Putin did not do anything: he used vast revenues to supress those who wanted to be free, some had to emigrate, some shut up, some sold out, some were killed - most now live in fear, just like in USSR time.

Putin is a KGB scum - he joined it as a volunteer while he was still in University. Do you know what type of person did this at that time of their life? Snitches that listened to talks of the students.

Putin is a war criminal - full extent of atrocities in Chechnya is not fully open, but it is clear that war crimes were committed there - perpretrated by the army for which he - as chief of army - is responsible. When chechens responded with terror he put his job before children in Beslan - there is enough known now that makes it clear that his forces shot at school first using rockets that triggered explosives inside, and then started general storm of the place killing around 350 hostages - mostly children. Official investigation was doing all it can to absolve Putin and others from any guilt claiming flame-throwers were not used, and only after these flame-throwers were found (they were dropped there after usage), then investigation reluctantly accepted them as evidence. Nothing really happened since.

Single-mindness is only good if it is good mind doing the right thing: Putin is not a good mind, he is a war criminal that needs to be brought to justice - some Britons admired Hitler until WW2 started, he was also pretty single-minded and he took Germany from ruins and made it raise again only to waste it all in midless cruel war. Same thing with Putin.

NATO anti-missile shield is a go - Putin's idea was a PR move: the radar he offered to use simple can't be used to guide anti-missiles, it was made in the 80s, do you know what state of electronics was in USSR in 80s? Thankfully NATO members, and most importantly leaders in Europe now understand who they are dealing with and slowly trying to undo the damage they did.

As I said - if you admire Putin you either seriously misinformed, or an idiot or a nazi scumbag: that's right, Soviets were not nationalistic - their ideology was communism, but Putin's ideology is nationalism, heard of national-socialist party?

And what about murder of a British citizen in London using radioactive substance Polonium-210? Around 30-40 other people got infected and will get cancer sooner than later, how about that? Putin claims it was Berezovsky who did it, well, I don't if he works for MI6 (unlikely), but I am far more likely to believe that it was Putin who is behind that murder, just like he was behind other murders and strange deaths of people who had one thing in common: they were against Putin.