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Lucy
6th August 2007, 14:10
Anyone heard of used citi ?

Boss insists it is better than P2, and that P2 is 'mickey mouse' and is an 'A level' approach to managing projects and programmes. Citi on the other hand is 'Degree level' and doesn't do the step by step stuff P2 does. (Already I am unimpressed). Just went to look at the citi site and it looks like a pile of nonsense.

_V_
6th August 2007, 14:18
I use BULLSH 1T

It is the next step up from citi and is phd level.

HTH

thunderlizard
6th August 2007, 14:22
does your boss's argument contain any facts or examples, or is it all based on meaningless cliches?

Lucy
6th August 2007, 14:26
does your boss's argument contain any facts or examples, or is it all based on meaningless cliches?

Well, indeed, I need to get him to supply some specifics. I was trying to find some on the citi website, but it is fluffier than a bunny's tail.

cojak
6th August 2007, 14:26
*makes mental note to research for next bull$!££ bingo interview*

degree-level eh?

American, is it?? :laugh

milanbenes
6th August 2007, 15:27
Lucy,

are you sure you didn't just take those words from a Dilbert cartoon ?

Milan.

oraclesmith
6th August 2007, 22:31
Anyone heard of used citi ?

Boss insists it is better than P2, and that P2 is 'mickey mouse' and is an 'A level' approach to managing projects and programmes. Citi on the other hand is 'Degree level' and doesn't do the step by step stuff P2 does. (Already I am unimpressed). Just went to look at the citi site and it looks like a pile of nonsense.

CITI appears to be owned by the Cranfield Institute plus a bunch of big firms, not a methodology, so you're not comparing like for like. Also remember that PRINCE2 only provides a methodology for structuring and controlling projects, not specific planning tools (except PBS's etc), so it is always supplemented by (a) experience and (b) other tools and techniques.

CITI seem to have some proprietary PM tools, but they are basically a training company. They provide PRINCE2 and APM courses themselves, so they're hardly going head to head with these methodologies.

Also, your boss is probably waxing lyrical about their postgraduate courses, but these are just Uni diploma courses at Middlesex.

It's a bit like comparing Parity with PRINCE2, it doesn't make sense. In my humble opinion.

oraclesmith
6th August 2007, 22:34
Anyhow, you're a contractor, you're not supposed to have a boss ! Make your own decisions !!

Sockpuppet
6th August 2007, 22:49
PRINCE2 is a "hey, I've done a 5 day course to prove I know how to write status reports".

THe next step up is "hey, I've done 5 years PM'ing so I know what to write in status reports"

oraclesmith
6th August 2007, 23:06
PRINCE2 is a "hey, I've done a 5 day course to prove I know how to write status reports".

Highlight reports.

Incidently the self-proclaimed National Centre for Project Management is based at Middlesex University in close proximity to the National Centre for Work Based Learning Partnerships (NCWLBP) and the Centre of Excellence in Work-Based Learning (CEWBL) funded by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE).

That should tell you all you need to know about the nature of the courses offered !!!

oraclesmith
6th August 2007, 23:08
One of the National Centre's strategic objectives :-

To promote Middlesex University as a centre of excellence in project management nationally and internationally.

:rollin: :laugh :rollin: :laugh :rollin:

Cowboy Bob
7th August 2007, 05:27
All these acronyms and qualifications are there just make it look harder than it is to manage a project - and to justify permie salaries. Just get on with it. Anyone with any nouse can plan and manage a project.

Lucy
7th August 2007, 08:09
All these acronyms and qualifications are there just make it look harder than it is to manage a project - and to justify permie salaries. Just get on with it. Anyone with any nouse can plan and manage a project.


The problem is there are so few people with 'any nouse'. A good friend of mine makes 2k a day rescuing projects/programmes, which are often in such a mess due to a complete lack of governance and structure...

Lucy
7th August 2007, 08:10
Lucy,

are you sure you didn't just take those words from a Dilbert cartoon ?

Milan.

my life is a dilbert cartoon

Lucy
7th August 2007, 08:38
Anyhow, you're a contractor, you're not supposed to have a boss ! Make your own decisions !!


Well, indeed. However, I my brief is to apply governance to an out of control programme, with a nutty manager. The company's standard is P2, but I can't find a single person who knows what a PBS is.

Peter Loew
7th August 2007, 10:01
Well, indeed. However, I my brief is to apply governance to an out of control programme, with a nutty manager. The company's standard is P2, but I can't find a single person who knows what a PBS is.

I have worked in places where they claim to go by P2 standards, and yet everyone gets edgy when I define the PBS's because nobody, techies specifically, wants to produce any of the actual deliverables. Go figure.

P

Peter Loew
7th August 2007, 10:08
All these acronyms and qualifications are there just make it look harder than it is to manage a project - and to justify permie salaries. Just get on with it. Anyone with any nouse can plan and manage a project.

I agree with the former part of that statement.

But not everyone can manage projects. If you have the right personality and attitude, then you can manage a project without knowing what a highlight report is, a PBS is, or what any other [insert here] is. If you are not much of an interactive person, your project will fail.

The question is, how many people really do have the right attitude and interactive skills to manage a project? I think not many, and despite P2 standards, one good reason why projects fail is because the person is not right for the PM role.

Cowboy Bob
7th August 2007, 10:20
But not everyone can manage projects. If you have the right personality and attitude, then you can manage a project without knowing what a highlight report is, a PBS is, or what any other [insert here] is.

That's what I meant by "nouse".

Mustang
7th August 2007, 11:56
I agree with the former part of that statement.

But not everyone can manage projects. If you have the right personality and attitude, then you can manage a project without knowing what a highlight report is, a PBS is, or what any other [insert here] is. If you are not much of an interactive person, your project will fail.

The question is, how many people really do have the right attitude and interactive skills to manage a project? I think not many, and despite P2 standards, one good reason why projects fail is because the person is not right for the PM role.

I fully agree and, in addition, there are so many companies that think they only have to educate their PM's in P2 and everyone else hasn't got a clue about it! :tantrum:

Lucy
7th August 2007, 11:58
I fully agree and, in addition, there are so many companies that think they only have to educate their PM's in P2 and everyone else hasn't got a clue about it! :tantrum:

Unlike this insurance company who have spent a fortune training everyone but everyone in it and still they don't understand.

Peter Loew
7th August 2007, 13:40
I fully agree and, in addition, there are so many companies that think they only have to educate their PM's in P2 and everyone else hasn't got a clue about it! :tantrum:

Agreed. One of the things I find unfortunate is when I set up projects to P2 structures and someone in the project resource list moans because he actually has to produce a HLD or some other kind of deliverable.

In my current environment, one of my off-the-record projects is a culture change... teams here have to get used to doing things by the book. At least that's what senior management in this international services company want to enforce... :)

sasguru
7th August 2007, 14:08
That's what I meant by "nouse".

I have no nouse at all. I wish I knew what it was. Most people do think I have some nous though.

HTH

Xenophon
7th August 2007, 14:16
I am the Tsar of project management. All you need for project success is me.

HTH

:grin

Muttley08
7th August 2007, 14:21
Back on the topic, I went on a CITI course a few years ago now that was quite good. I think it's useful to get a taster of P2, as well as others....

P2 is OK, like anything though, the skill is how to use it....you see a lot PM's producing poor docs that arent achieving much, because the Project Office dictates you should.

Perhaps we should just burn anyone involved in the PO at the stake???

Lucy
7th August 2007, 14:53
Perhaps we should just burn anyone involved in the PO at the stake???

Why does it always end in violence?

Muttley08
7th August 2007, 14:54
Why does it always end in violence?

Because I don't know any better :)

chicane
7th August 2007, 14:55
Why does it always end in violence?

It's the only language they understand.

Muttley08
7th August 2007, 14:58
Why does it always end in violence?

Or maybe it's a valid Project Management Methodology....sod Prince.....just get a wriggle on, or I'll clip you round the ear!!!

Lucy
8th August 2007, 10:17
Or maybe it's a valid Project Management Methodology....sod Prince.....just get a wriggle on, or I'll clip you round the ear!!!


More violence !

And a classic answer, sod Prince, just get moving, it doesn't matter where. Just look like you are doing something...

Muttley08
8th August 2007, 10:23
More violence !

And a classic answer, sod Prince, just get moving, it doesn't matter where. Just look like you are doing something...

Or stop writing about how you're going to do it...and just get on with it...

Muttley in wind-up the PO types mode :)