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Francko
10th August 2007, 07:53
Is that really more difficult/dangerous as some people say, especially when it's raining/snowing?

fzbucks
10th August 2007, 07:56
Is that really more difficult/dangerous as some people say, especially when it's raining/snowing?

'spose it depends who's behind the wheel more than anything. Knowing how to handle a rear wheel drive car in slippy conditions is a must.

daviejones
10th August 2007, 07:56
Yes because when you get behind the wheel, you turn into a right tit!!! Your driving standards decline, you lose concentration and act like a twerp!!!

Maybe generalising a little but not much!!!

Methuselah
10th August 2007, 07:58
Is that really more difficult/dangerous as some people say, especially when it's raining/snowing?I've never owned one but I've driven a few friends' and I found the opposite: first of all every one seems to drive like every other one so you know what's happening. Secondly, it seems to be responsive and sensitive, but TBH I've never pushed it to see what happens when it gets close to going wrong, but it feels like it'd be gradual and communicative.

Do get the right tyres for the season.

Lockhouse
10th August 2007, 08:07
That could be true only if people have never driven a RWD car and/or are inexperienced drivers. I'm afraid the one thing you can't slate about them is the handling!

Francko
10th August 2007, 08:09
don't actually drive a BMW (a bit too chavvy for me) but I would know to take into account the road/weather conditions and adjust my driving to suit - as one would in any vehicle.

That's for sure. However, what some people say is that BMW are very unstable in the rain and they have exagerated reactions. While this might not be a problem for rear wheel long experienced user if you don't have that much experience with it, it might turn to be quite dangerous as you would react differently in front wheel. I just wonder how many people did the switch from front to rear wheel and how easy that was.
Probably this is just a myth and perhaps it was due to very old BMW whose reactions where incredibly oversensitive. However, as in all myths there might be some truth in it. :wink

Interesting about the chavviness of BMW. True that in UK is a 99% owned chav car but most of it belonging to drug dealers-crime offenders. If you go to the mainland then it is a well respected car owned mainly by wealthy professional people.

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 08:19
Interesting about the chavviness of BMW. True that in UK is a 99% owned chav car but most of it belonging to drug dealers-crime offenders. If you go to the mainland then it is a well respected car owned mainly by wealthy professional people.

Absolute garbage. What on earth are you talking about? How many chavs can afford an X5, M3, M5, or M6, etc.

It just a very popular brand driven by all sorts of folk.

Francko
10th August 2007, 08:21
Absolute garbage. What on earth are you talking about? How many chavs can afford an X5, M3, M5, or M6, etc.


Yes, as I said, drug dealers mainly. :tongue

Chavs can afford 10years old BMW though.

sasguru
10th August 2007, 08:24
Absolute garbage. What on earth are you talking about? How many chavs can afford an X5, M3, M5, or M6, etc.

It just a very popular brand driven by all sorts of folk.

Course it's garbage. Francko doesn't understand why 99.9% of the Uk population were more successful than him and therefore can afford BMWs.
Interesting fact: BMW 3 series outsells Mondeos in the UK

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 08:25
Ive got in trouble a few times toeing it a bit much off roundabouts, I had new Dunlop tyres put on a while back and while they are quality in the dry when it rains sometimes it's like driving on ice :laugh

DimPrawn
10th August 2007, 08:32
My wife drives a brand new 330 ci

It has so many stability control features you could try* and drive it at 155 MPH on sheet ice round a corner and all that will happen is 20 lights will flash on the dash and the onboard computer will drop the power to the wheels to about 3 BHP and you will tootle round looking like a div.

Of course, you cheapskates are probably looking at a 20 yr old BMW which will kill you.

Francko
10th August 2007, 08:37
Interesting fact: BMW 3 series outsells Mondeos in the UK

That's only because a large majority of the UK population are chavs or drug dealers. :laugh

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 08:54
My wife drives a brand new 330 ci

It has so many stability control features you could try* and drive it at 155 MPH on sheet ice round a corner and all that will happen is 20 lights will flash on the dash and the onboard computer will drop the power to the wheels to about 3 BHP and you will tootle round looking like a div.

Of course, you cheapskates are probably looking at a 20 yr old BMW which will kill you.

I had a Sport one of these. Most overrated pile of cack I've ever had the misfortune of driving. I can confirm that the dash does indeed light up like a Christmas tree at the slightest whiff of the accelerator.

Hope she likes it, I couldn't wait to get shot of mine.

gingerjedi
10th August 2007, 08:56
As I said yesterday 'chav' is an overused term, it seems that anyone who is deemed as below the observer’s status is now a 'chav'. :confused: Every car out there has a label that can be applied, stop behaving like sheep and buy whatever suits your needs... Saying that I will always think some BMW drivers are egotistical tits but that’s probably down to the fact that a lot of people who no nothing about cars buy them because they believe the advertising bumph and somehow by owning 'the ultimate driving machine' they are transformed into the ultimate driver.

fzbucks
10th August 2007, 08:56
Absolute garbage. What on earth are you talking about? How many chavs can afford an X5, M3, M5, or M6, etc.

It just a very popular brand driven by all sorts of folk.

Just remember not all chavs are poor or on benefits.

Methuselah
10th August 2007, 08:59
Just remember not all chavs are poor or on benefits.In fact the definition I saw in one place was "someone who has more money than taste". That might apply to more than a few here......

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 09:00
That's for sure. However, what some people say is that BMW are very unstable in the rain and they have exagerated reactions. While this might not be a problem for rear wheel long experienced user if you don't have that much experience with it, it might turn to be quite dangerous as you would react differently in front wheel. I just wonder how many people did the switch from front to rear wheel and how easy that was.
Probably this is just a myth and perhaps it was due to very old BMW whose reactions where incredibly oversensitive. However, as in all myths there might be some truth in it. :wink



I have a front wheel drive car and rear wheel drive one. Front wheel drive have dialled in understeer meaning the car will tend to go wide on cornering, and sometimes not have enough turn into a corner. With front wheel drive the car is trying to do two things through the front wheels, turn and power, this impedes the handling especially when you get torque steer with powerful front wheel drive. It's harder to tell when front wheel is losing grip because it's less communitive because of the issues above, that's why many powerful front wheel drives understeer into crashes on bends, it's gone before you realise. Front wheel drive cars can't deal with more than about 220 bhp.

Rear wheel drives don't have the above compromises, the front wheel only have to concentrate on steering, if you start to lose grip you feel it through the seat of you pants or through the wheel, so it can make you a safer driver. You need to be careful of powering into corners in rear wheel drive, so you can't drive one as you would a hot hatch and you need to be more careful in the wet.
BMWs have traction control so even oversteer isn't an issue anymore unless you turn it off.

fzbucks
10th August 2007, 09:04
BMWs have traction control so even oversteer isn't an issue anymore unless you turn it off.

"REAL" Drivers turn it off :smile

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 09:06
Or alternatively get yourself a performance 4WD and go into your crashes sideways.

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 09:08
I was behind one of those wonderfull handling focus' the other day, powering around a bend he was so drifing so wide I thought he was going to come off the road, you could almost see the wheel slipping sideways. People who drive them seem to think they are 'sporty', how sad

Francko
10th August 2007, 09:14
"REAL" Drivers turn it off :smile

And code in C++!!!! :smile

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 09:14
And code in C++!!!! :smile

C++ is for poofs, assembly is for the hardcore :nerd

gingerjedi
10th August 2007, 09:17
A lot of the understeer problems can be counteracted by good tyres and suspension setup, my current car is lighter and more powerful than all the other FWD cars I have owned but I have yet to encounter understeer, I lose my nerve before the losing the grip, In the wet its a different story but that applies to both FWD and RWD, no matter what you have the laws of physics will always catch you out if you push hard enough.

sasguru
10th August 2007, 09:20
I have a front wheel drive car and rear wheel drive one. Front wheel drive have dialled in understeer meaning the car will tend to go wide on cornering, and sometimes not have enough turn into a corner. With front wheel drive the car is trying to do two things through the front wheels, turn and power, this impedes the handling especially when you get torque steer with powerful front wheel drive. It's harder to tell when front wheel is losing grip because it's less communitive because of the issues above, that's why many powerful front wheel drives understeer into crashes on bends, it's gone before you realise. Front wheel drive cars can't deal with more than about 220 bhp.

Rear wheel drives don't have the above compromises, the front wheel only have to concentrate on steering, if you start to lose grip you feel it through the seat of you pants or through the wheel, so it can make you a safer driver. You need to be careful of powering into corners in rear wheel drive, so you can't drive one as you would a hot hatch and you need to be more careful in the wet.
BMWs have traction control so even oversteer isn't an issue anymore unless you turn it off.

:laugh :laugh
And you wonder why women give you a wide berth.
Pub bore.

richard-af
10th August 2007, 09:21
A lot of the understeer problems can be counteracted by good tyres and suspension setup, my current car is lighter and more powerful than all the other FWD cars I have owned but I have yet to encounter understeer, I lose my nerve before the losing the grip, In the wet its a different story but that applies to both FWD and RWD, no matter what you have the laws of physics will always catch you out if you push hard enough.
The laws of physics do not apply to BMWs. Newton's 4th law of motion, I think.

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 09:22
A lot of the understeer problems can be counteracted by good tyres and suspension setup, my current car is lighter and more powerful than all the other FWD cars I have owned but I have yet to encounter understeer, I lose my nerve before the losing the grip, In the wet its a different story but that applies to both FWD and RWD, no matter what you have the laws of physics will always catch you out if you push hard enough.

And when they do Id rather be in a RWD car than a FWD car. Actually Id rather be in a 4WD car the most :D

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 09:23
:laugh :laugh
And you wonder why women give you a wide berth.
Pub bore.

We're not talking about boats, divvy.

VectraMan
10th August 2007, 09:24
C++ is for poofs, assembly is for the hardcore :nerd

Says a .NET scripter.

All the worst drivers on the road used to have Golf TDis. I've noticed recently they all seem to have upgraded to BMW 3 series diesels.

I have an S2000, and a manly early one too. According to some it's impossible to drive one without crashing every few miles. :rolleyes:

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 09:26
Says a .NET scripter.


Yeah and what?

Thats what earns me a wedge, and it's by far the best development platform in business land ;)

(awaits the JAVA/Ruby onslaught)

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 09:26
:laugh :laugh
And you wonder why women give you a wide berth.
Pub bore.

On yer (ladies) bike! :p

DimPrawn
10th August 2007, 09:27
To be fair, assguru's ladies bike is rear wheel drive. :laugh

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 09:34
I have an S2000, and a manly early one too. According to some it's impossible to drive one without crashing every few miles. :rolleyes:

The caveat should be "it's impossible to drive like a tit without crashing". Mind you getting the tail out is a joy. :wink

fzbucks
10th August 2007, 09:35
To be fair, assguru's ladies bike is rear wheel drive. :laugh

I heard that he took the seat off aswell to introduce an element of driving pleasure :D

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 09:37
I heard that he took the seat off aswell to introduce an element of driving pleasure :D

Shouldn't that be riding pleasure? :laugh

gingerjedi
10th August 2007, 09:40
I have an S2000, and a manly early one too. According to some it's impossible to drive one without crashing every few miles. :rolleyes:

You cant win, I'm always bemused by Top Gear reviews, when a powerful car has little in the way of stability/traction control it will kill you but if a company spends lots of money and effort making it more predictable they say its a bit dull, the Lambo Gallardo was marked down because of this :confused: if I had all that power I would want all the help I could get!

Clippy
10th August 2007, 10:20
That's only because a large majority of the UK population are chavs or drug dealers. :laugh

Could be worse - we could all be driving Gino Ginelli branded ice cream vans.

:wink

Francko
10th August 2007, 11:15
There is one question that is coming automatic.

What is the point of having a rear wheel car if you are commanded by a nanny computer that decides what you have to do and automatically adjusts the car behaviour. How can this anyhow improve your driving skills? :confused:

DimPrawn
10th August 2007, 11:18
Mainstream car manufacturers don't make cars to "improve your driving skills" you fool, they create them as safe, comfortable forms of transport.

If you want to improve your "skills" (i.e. tail out on a hairpin at 110 mph), then buy an Elise/Caterham/Westfield and do it on a track.

Dark Black
10th August 2007, 11:23
And when they do Id rather be in a RWD car than a FWD car. Actually Id rather be in a 4WD car the most :D

4WD is for girls.. RWD all the way... with no traction control, abs, pas etc etc...

*** Opposite lock is your friend. The handbrake is not just for parking with. Learn throttle control. Do NOT leave your foot on the brake ***

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D


It saddens me that this thread has even appeared, suggesting that RWD is somehow dangerous... just learn to drive properly. Driving standards have declined horribly since all the nanny computers and safety aids have come in to play...

:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum:


Remember air bags were developed for fat americans who wouldn't wear their seatbelts...

:spank: :spank:

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 11:32
Dont worry about me mate, first thing i do is turn off TC off.

Nothing better than accelerating off a roundabout with the back end out and a bit of opposite lock :bluelight

Dark Black
10th August 2007, 11:40
Dont worry about me mate, first thing i do is turn off TC off.

Nothing better than accelerating off a roundabout with the back end out and a bit of opposite lock :bluelight

Thats the spirit... good lad :music:

Francko
10th August 2007, 12:04
It saddens me that this thread has even appeared, suggesting that RWD is somehow dangerous... just learn to drive properly. Driving standards have declined horribly since all the nanny computers and safety aids have come in to play...


So are you hoping in a nation of Schumachers or perhaps you would advise people that to drive a BMW without particular driving skills you are better off not driving one? Therefore, yes, why was it saddening? Driving a BMW without proper driving skills *IS* more dangerous as you admitted yourself.

richard-af
10th August 2007, 12:30
So are you hoping in a nation of Schumachers or perhaps you would advise people that to drive a BMW without particular driving skills you are better off not driving one? Therefore, yes, why was it saddening? Driving a BMW without proper driving skills *IS* more dangerous as you admitted yourself.
Isn't driving anything without proper driving skills dangerous?

Francko
10th August 2007, 12:39
Isn't driving anything without proper driving skills dangerous?

Well, sure, but if you are used to FWD then you have different driving skills.

gingerjedi
10th August 2007, 13:08
Well, sure, but if you are used to FWD then you have different driving skills.

Very true, I've been driving FWD all my life with the exception of one 4WD, so when I had the pleasure of driving a formula ford 1600 on a track day I was in for rude awakening :eek: funny thing was the back came out when I was braking and dropping gears rather than accelerating out of corners, I know you should brake in a straight line but any deviation or snappy drop down resulted in a twitchy back end from both me and the car!

If anyone gets the chance I would highly recommend it as it really does test how big your balls are.

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 13:15
I did it a brands hatch, over took someone coming down the hill on the inside. Was going to fast, slammed on the brakes, made the turn easy (they are like go karts) but dropped it into neutral instead of 3rd so stuck my foot down out the turn but of course, no gear was engaged. All i heard was the engine screeming, I panicked, shifted into third quickly, the clutch bit and due to the high rev, span the wheels resulting in me catching a glimpse of the back end in my right eye :laugh

Major fun, wish they had the proper paddle shife though instead of a stick shift, also there no servo on the gearbox or clutch so it's quite hard to change gear at first until you get unsed to it. And you have to hit like 6000rpm just to pull off in 1st.

Definately want to do it again.

gingerjedi
10th August 2007, 13:25
But the raw handling and gear changes are what I loved, I felt like Fangio or Moss back in 50's when grit and determination were more important than tyre choice and downforce.

Dark Black
10th August 2007, 13:26
Well, sure, but if you are used to FWD then you have different driving skills.

Quite - but that doesn't make a RWD car more dangerous - it just means you need to recognise that it will handle differently and treat it with more respect until you learn to drive it properly.

FWD is inherently safer for the average unskilled pleb to drive.

A good driver will get a lot more from a RWD car.

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 13:32
funny thing was the back came out when I was braking and dropping gears rather than accelerating out of corners, I know you should brake in a straight line but any deviation or snappy drop down resulted in a twitchy back end from both me and the car!



Rally drivers use a gear change to get the back end out, they drop the clutch to do it though.

FWD really teaches you bad habits, it flatters poor driving. Put most boy racers in a powerful RWD and they will be rubbish. As course as Dim Kunt Implied most cars are built for Noddys.

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 13:33
This is the reason I want a Cerbera, a Z4 M Coupe or a Cayman S, although I think the latter will not be as fun to drive.

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 13:39
This is the reason I want a Cerbera, a Z4 M Coupe or a Cayman S, although I think the latter will not be as fun to drive.

I'd go for the first option and get an old banger for the days you won't be able to use it, second hand TVRs are as cheap as chips. The Cayman is supposed to be good but is too close to the 911 price to make it VFM. the z4 coupe still looks like a 20k base model from the front.

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 13:44
This is the reason I want a Cerbera, a Z4 M Coupe or a Cayman S, although I think the latter will not be as fun to drive.

Go with the Z4. A mate's got a Z3 M Coupe and it's a howl.

The Cerbera may annoy you reliability-wise. Plus it has more chance of ending up in a ditch on a rainy day.

Better still pass your bike test and stick you fingers up to all three of 'em. They're rear wheel drive.

Just don't come off it, eh?

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 13:46
Must admint the Cerbera makes more sense, yeah it might cost more to maintain, but the newer ones are ok reliability wise, alot cheaper than the other two.

And the noise :D

Plus I prefer driving cars that might kill me on the next bend, ill wait till im 30 before thinking about a Passat Highline or an Audi Estate :wave:

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 13:48
cheap...

http://www.vcars.co.uk/used-cars/cardetails.php?t=autoexposure&u=1535

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 13:50
I can't get on with the chavvy look of the back. I mean the front and side are beautiful, but they go and spoil the back, same on the Tamora too :eek

Also love the Tuscan but my god why put them chavvy exhausts on it?

If the Tuscan had the Cerbera tailpipes then yeah, but at the moment I can only get on with the Cerbera 4.5 lightweight, oooh yes please 0-60 3.9 seconds?

Porsches, Ferraris, Bikes move over :p

gingerjedi
10th August 2007, 13:53
ill wait till im 30 before thinking about a Passat Highline or an Audi Estate :wave:

'Baby forces sale' will be me next, anyone have a classic sports car for the weekends? I was thinking a focus diesel for mundane day to day and a mint TR6 or something, I reckon I could get both for less than 16k if I went for a 3 year old focus.

As long as you look after it you should enjoy depreciation free motoring and it may even increase in value??

Red 7
10th August 2007, 13:55
Better still pass your bike test and stick you fingers up to all three of 'em. They're rear wheel drive.

Just don't come off it, eh?


Wise words.... just make sure you do it this year, the bike test is getting much harder in 2008


For days when I don't fancy the bike, I want a tail happy '69 911s, I'll buy one eventually, when I find the 'right' one, it's got to be yellow for a start.

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 13:58
Plus I prefer driving cars that might kill me on the next bend, ill wait till im 30 before thinking about a Passat Highline or an Audi Estate :wave:

You might like the idea of it but probably not so much fun in practice.

I'd still go for something you can live with a bit easier on a day-to-day basis but still have a hoot with on a track, hence the Z4 recommendation.

I wouldn't have thought a TVR is much fun in traffic; this is the UK after all.

Red 7
10th August 2007, 13:59
oooh yes please 0-60 3.9 seconds?

Porsches, Ferraris, Bikes move over :p

Eh. ?

Most standard sportsbikes will make 60 in 2.5 seconds.

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 14:01
Ive got a Z3 at the mo only the mere 140bhp one, but get's the back end out nicely. Got it cos the missus wanted to drive it, now it's in the garage after the missus failed to see a taxi on a roundabout :eyes

It's actually a really good car, fun to drive, not as juicy as the V8 S-Type i had before and is very very reliable.

But I want to palm that off on the missus and get something for myself, and go nuts this time.

Trouble is im 26 in sept my missus just lost me my no claims and I was going for a group 20 motor :rolleyes:

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 14:02
Eh. ?

Most standard sportsbikes will make 60 in 2.5 seconds.

Yer true, but but not all

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 14:02
I've driven the 2.2 Z4 convertible, and the chasis wasn't great.

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 14:03
Eh. ?

Most standard sportsbikes will make 60 in 2.5 seconds.

The reason bike acceleration stats are often quoted as 0-100. Plus it will have only cost a few thousand to get that kind of performance.

VectraMan
10th August 2007, 14:04
Eh. ?

Most standard sportsbikes will make 60 in 2.5 seconds.

0-60 is a stupid way of measuring performance. The power to weight advantage becomes much less at higher speeds: the old 1.8 Rover powered Elises were quick 0-60, but pretty much rubbish after about 80.

Bikes are only really fast from slow corners, but they're slower around the corners than cars. At The Nurburgring, the bikes are a menace: they slow you down round the corners and then out accelerate you meaning you can't get passed. :mad:

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 14:06
The reason bike acceleration stats are often quoted as 0-100. Plus it will have only cost a few thousand to get that kind of performance.

Yeah I want to do my bike test and get a GSX-R 600, but it's all priorities, I need a car to be honest first.

gingerjedi
10th August 2007, 14:08
Is there such a thing as a mint TR6?

I thought they came out of the factory rusty as standard.

Yes they did but there are some very good restored vehicles, once they’ve been stripped back, primered and painted with modern materials they should be good for a long time, not sure about the engines though but a good members club should be a cheap source of spares, you don't buy a classic unless you're prepared to get your hands dirty!

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 14:10
Yeah I want to do my bike test and get a GSX-R 600, but it's all priorities, I need a car to be honest first.

Yeah sorry squire - they're obviously totally different beasts. Me warbling on about bikes is of no help to your situation.

It's just that it's sunny at the moment and I'd like to be out there. :(

Chugnut
10th August 2007, 14:13
...you don't buy a classic unless you're prepared to get your hands dirty!

That's a good attitute considering you're going to be a father soon, GJ. :D

dotnetter
10th August 2007, 14:13
Yeah sorry squire - they're obviously totally different beasts. Me warbling on about bikes is of no help to your situation.

It's just that it's sunny at the moment and I'd like to be out there. :(

Yeah I wouldnt mind doing 160 up the A13 to the coast on a GSX-R this weekend :)

Red 7
10th August 2007, 14:17
0-60 is a stupid way of measuring performance.

Yes, it is.


Bikes are only really fast from slow corners, but they're slower around the corners than cars. At The Nurburgring, the bikes are a menace: they slow you down round the corners and then out accelerate you meaning you can't get passed. :mad:

Actually, cars are a menace at the ring, there's always some fat GT3 RS dawdling on the straights when you want to get on the gas. :D

Bagpuss
10th August 2007, 14:45
On s2kuk there is a video of some guy VTECing his S around the ring, looks like fun!

threaded
10th August 2007, 16:06
Is that really more difficult/dangerous as some people say, especially when it's raining/snowing?
Absolutely. The tires they fit as standard are appalling at the best of times and even worse in the wet or ice. For what people pay for the cars you'd think they'd be happy to allow a choice, but they don't. If you can, swap them for Vredesteins Hi-Trac in the summer and Ice-Trac in winter which I have on the 7 or Pirelli P-Zeros which I have on the 8 Alpina (not that you'd drive a car like that in the wet or winter).

King Cnvt
10th August 2007, 16:59
You still driving that old ugly German Capri?

:rolleyes: