PDA

View Full Version : In memory of those who gave



Moose423956
11th November 2007, 13:07
My father fought in WWII, and both my grandfathers in WWI. Fortunately they all survived, but many thousands didn't. So I think we should all spare a thought for those that gave their lives, and for all the families affected by their losses.


They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
WE WILL REMEMBER THEM (http://www.wewillrememberthem.co.uk/)

'FOR YOUR TOMORROW WE GAVE OUR TODAY'

pisces
11th November 2007, 13:13
:yay:

AtW
11th November 2007, 13:20
Even though I don't wear poppies, I am grateful to those who helped defend this country since otherwise I'd have to find some other home and I am not sure I would have found something better.

Newbie000
11th November 2007, 13:38
Here here Moose.

xoggoth
11th November 2007, 16:37
I fought in three world wars for you lot. Please send money.

wobbegong
11th November 2007, 17:13
My father fought in WWII, and both my grandfathers in WWI. Fortunately they all survived, but many thousands didn't. So I think we should all spare a thought for those that gave their lives, and for all the families affected by their losses.


They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
WE WILL REMEMBER THEM (http://www.wewillrememberthem.co.uk/)

'FOR YOUR TOMORROW WE GAVE OUR TODAY'

Well said, that man! We all observed the two minute silence at 11:00.

chasingtheaurora
11th November 2007, 17:37
Quite right. As one who has received the Queens shilling and lost friends I was at the Cenotaph this morning proudly wearing my medals (1 UK, 2 foreign) and with a tear in my eye.

"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."

KentPhilip
11th November 2007, 17:45
I attended a remembrance parade this morning for the first time in 20 years.
When you think about what a lot of these guys went through in the two wars it kind of puts into perspective ones whinges about the daily grind in IT. Has anyone ever been killed or wounded by a computer?

OwlHoot
11th November 2007, 18:15
I attended a remembrance parade this morning for the first time in 20 years.
When you think about what a lot of these guys went through in the two wars it kind of puts into perspective ones whinges about the daily grind in IT. Has anyone ever been killed or wounded by a computer?

Not killed, but quite badly wounded. Trying to get a board into a Compaq and hampered by what looked like a strip of metal, tugged away at it like mad and levered it with a screwdriver and cut my finger almost to the bone. It turned out to be a razor-sharp moulded sheet that lined the slots inside at the back.

TimberWolf
11th November 2007, 18:21
I don't think he was asking if a computer had killed anyone here. In modern wars computers kill most people, except when the humans are stupid enough to invade on foot. Warfare is getting a bit impersonal, unlike the good old days.

Sockpuppet
11th November 2007, 19:08
Doesn't matter how "hi tech" wars get it will always fall back to some 18 year old with a rifle.

TimberWolf
11th November 2007, 20:08
Doesn't matter how "hi tech" wars get it will always fall back to some 18 year old with a rifle.

This (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=492631&in_page_id=1965) guy's had his day then :freaky:

VectraMan
11th November 2007, 20:15
Has anyone ever been killed or wounded by a computer?

I was recently. I walked into my spare room in the dark forgetting that there was a PC on the floor I was testing for somebody and kicked it. My foot hasn't stopped hurting since - I'm getting a bit worried about it.

KentPhilip
11th November 2007, 20:29
I don't think he was asking if a computer had killed anyone here.

No I was.

VectraMan
11th November 2007, 20:32
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.

Moscow Mule
11th November 2007, 21:48
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.

I think you're going to get a lot of abuse for this post.

I can't be arsed to explain why you are so, so wrong. But congratulations anyway, welcome to ignoresville. Population, you.

WindyAnna
11th November 2007, 22:04
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.

I would consider myself to be anti-war, however I really do believe that those who both lived and died through WWI and WWII were INCREDIBLY brave and I do appreciate their sacrifice.

To pass off what they did with a sentence like that is complete and utter tosh. I'm not sure where to begin to tell you why ...

TimberWolf
11th November 2007, 22:26
I disagree; the view was refreshingly undronelike. The only slightly niggle I might have is that it could perhaps be done in different thread. For my own part, I just let poppy day people get on with it. Much of my family are the same and we have quite a military background, including in the current wars.

The Lone Gunman
11th November 2007, 22:36
Please people, this is neither the time nor the place.

It is not a day to glorify war nor to make all the dead into heroes. It is a day to remember those who fell serving their country. It is all about peace. It is all about ending conflict.

There is a reason it is called armistice day.

We should all take time out to consider those who fell and why.

We must hope that one day there will be an end to war.

Lest we forget.

White Poppy crowd: Sod off! If you want a peace day then start one. Do not hijack this day.

sasguru
11th November 2007, 22:46
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.

War can be brave and noble if fought for the right reasons (at the basic level it's always bloody and grim). And the fact that people are conscripted at a time of grave national threat in no way diminishes their sacrifice.
Am hugely pissed off with your post. Why is there always one?
:mad

TwinGoldDaleks
11th November 2007, 23:17
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.We also think that post is remarkably shallow and shows no understanding of what remembrance day is.

VCs are for heroic deeds. Remembrance day is simply to remember everyone else, whoever they were, however they got there, who were caught up in war and died because of it.

That is speaking as a human of course. We daleks do not give our dead a second's thought...

TimberWolf
11th November 2007, 23:27
Okay already, let's not gang up on someone on such an emotive subject, where there's no fighting back for risk of being torn apart by the pack.


We daleks do not give our dead a second's thought...

That's exactly what my brother and his mates do. They have money behind the bar and have a bender when one cops it, and there have been quite a few recently. Then on with life.

BoredBloke
12th November 2007, 00:00
"I attended a remembrance parade this morning for the first time in 20 years.
When you think about what a lot of these guys went through in the two wars it kind of puts into perspective ones whinges about the daily grind in IT. Has anyone ever been killed or wounded by a computer? "

Me also. What got me was the number of old men and women who had medals stuck to them. People who for all the other days of the year you pass by without thinking. Today you realise just how much we all owe to these old people, people who will probably seen more of the darker side of human nature than I will ever.

I think it is disgusting that we even need a poppy appeal. If we ask people to go and fight our battles then we should look after those who return with injuries and the families of those who don't return.

BoredBloke
12th November 2007, 00:11
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.

I couldn't let this one go because it is absolute bolloxs. If it wasn't for the actions of these people you and I would be speaking German right now. What the hell have you done in your life which gives you the right to belittle their actions. Yes they may have been conscripted and ordered to fight but in my book their actions are a damn site more heroic than your ability to get a printer to work.

daviejones
12th November 2007, 08:45
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.

GGGRRRRRR!!!!!! :tantrum::tantrum::tantrum::tantrum::mad::mad::mad :mad:mad:mad:mad:mad:mad:mad:mad

Troll
12th November 2007, 09:02
I would consider myself to be anti-war, however I really do believe that those who both lived and died through WWI and WWII were INCREDIBLY brave and I do appreciate their sacrifice.

To pass off what they did with a sentence like that is complete and utter tosh. I'm not sure where to begin to tell you why ...Everyone should be anti-war (especially elected leaders) and war should only be used as the very last resort whan all else has failed... but sadly sometimes you have to fight and the consequences to mothers sons & daughters are obvious

The rest of your post I totally agree with

BrilloPad
12th November 2007, 09:09
My brother sends his apologies for not attending yesterday. But being in Afghanistan is quite a good excuse.

He describes his job as "doing the bidding of the labour party spin machine"

VectraMan
12th November 2007, 09:22
GGGRRRRRR!!!!!! :tantrum::tantrum::tantrum::tantrum::mad::mad::mad :mad:mad:mad:mad:mad:mad:mad:mad

Fair enough. I'm not a peacenick, I just think we should be honest about it.

wendigo100
12th November 2007, 09:26
I couldn't let this one go because it is absolute bolloxs. If it wasn't for the actions of these people you and I would be speaking German right now. What the hell have you done in your life which gives you the right to belittle their actions. Yes they may have been conscripted and ordered to fight but in my book their actions are a damn site more heroic than your ability to get a printer to work.I agree with this. Mind you Tony, speaking German would have helped my daughter with her GCSEs.

wendigo100
12th November 2007, 09:36
I don't really agree with this rememberance day lark as it goes too close to presenting war as a brave and noble thing. Let's not forget that those who "gave" their lives were largely conscripted, faced being shot if they deserted, and suffered the random bad luck of happening to be standing in the path of a bullet whereas the person next to them wasn't.

I'm sure there were heroes, but if you make everybody a hero by default, then that belittles the genuine ones.Shame on you Vectra. So conscripts aren't worthy of remembrance? Suppose you were hauled off to a war against your will and got killed by "random bad luck" - do we forget all about you and the family you leave behind?

This is about remembrance of all who fell, not the specific heroics of a few. By simply being there in the battlefield they were helping their side.

sasguru
12th November 2007, 09:44
It's quite revealing that dear old Tone, who never served in any service, got this country involved in more wars than any P.M. for the last 100 years.

The man is a gurning idiot.

KathyWoolfe
12th November 2007, 10:00
I didn't go to a remembrance day parade yesterday but I did see the one in London as broadcast by the BBC. I always observe the remembrance day ceremonies and I am diligent in buying a poppy. I was lucky to be able to visit a British Legion shop and speak with one of the attendants there instead of just picking one up from a box on the counter of a shop.

My father fought in WWII and luckily survived without physical injury (otherwise I wouldn't be here) and I consider myself considerably indebted to both the survivors and the fallen for their courage and endurance in the face of a danger I do not feel capable of facing myself.

Here's an idea that I have just had. Normally I just throw away my poppy after remembrance day (or armistice day, whichever comes last) but this year I intend to make the effort to visit a war memorial and add my poppy to those laid there during the ceremony.

VectraMan
12th November 2007, 10:19
This is about remembrance of all who fell, not the specific heroics of a few.

That was my point really - is it? The language is about pride, and bravery and nobility and people "giving" their lives, not about rememberance. I've no problem with paying respects to those who died, but what should be forefront in our minds is that those lives were wasted. We shouldn't feel pride, we should feel shame that our leaders (and I'm counting both sides) engaged in the wholesale slaughter of young men and that we let them.

I do sound like a peacenick.:rolleyes:

mace
12th November 2007, 12:15
Shame on you Vectra. So conscripts aren't worthy of remembrance? Suppose you were hauled off to a war against your will and got killed by "random bad luck" - do we forget all about you and the family you leave behind?

This is about remembrance of all who fell, not the specific heroics of a few. By simply being there in the battlefield they were helping their side.


I believe that Remembrance Day is partly to remember those who died serving the country, and partly to remind us of the foolishness of war.

DodgyAgent
12th November 2007, 12:49
That was my point really - is it? The language is about pride, and bravery and nobility and people "giving" their lives, not about rememberance. I've no problem with paying respects to those who died, but what should be forefront in our minds is that those lives were wasted. We shouldn't feel pride, we should feel shame that our leaders (and I'm counting both sides) engaged in the wholesale slaughter of young men and that we let them.

I do sound like a peacenick.:rolleyes:

So are you saying that we should not have gone to war against the Germans in WW2?

Troll
12th November 2007, 12:56
So are you saying that we should not have gone to war against the Germans in WW2?There were some within the cabinet who argued that once France had fallen we should have sued for peace
Also given the ultimate 55 million dead and our cities laid to waste was that a price worth paying for 5 miilion Poles?

DimPrawn
12th November 2007, 12:59
There were some within the cabinet who argued that once France had fallen we should have sued for peace
Also given the ultimate 55 million dead and our cities laid to waste was that a price worth paying for 5 miilion Poles?

Think how much a Plumber would cost now if we hadn't.

sasguru
12th November 2007, 12:59
There were some within the cabinet who argued that once France had fallen we should have sued for peace
Also given the ultimate 55 million dead and our cities laid to waste was that a price worth paying for 5 miilion Poles?

You really are an ignorant and stupid little cretin, aren't you?

Troll
12th November 2007, 13:01
Think how much a Plumber would cost now if we hadn't....no Iron Curtain...no American dominance... no Israel,

DimPrawn
12th November 2007, 13:01
...no Iron Curtain...no American dominance... no Israel,

No Britain....

sasguru
12th November 2007, 13:01
...no Iron Curtain...no American dominance... no Israel,

I rest my case.

Troll
12th November 2007, 13:02
You really are an ignorant and stupid little cretin, aren't you?eat shit dickwad... and try and answer questions without resorting to insults...

Troll
12th November 2007, 13:03
No Britain....I thought he wanted to preserve the Empire

sasguru
12th November 2007, 13:05
I thought he wanted to preserve the Empire

:laugh
Ah I see you're just trolling. No one can be that thick.

Troll
12th November 2007, 13:05
:laugh
Ah I see you're just trolling. No one can be that thick.I see you're still a dickwad

Spacecadet
12th November 2007, 13:17
From what I see, the main point of Rememberance sunday should be to make sure we never end up in that situation again.

It seems to be a message which countries which have undergone occupation are a lot better at putting forward

KathyWoolfe
12th November 2007, 15:02
Unless you're a traffic nazi...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7090758.stm


I understand that the residents whose places were taken have a point about non-residents illegal parking, but on this day - of all days - couldn't some common-sense have taken precedence.
Yes, apparently there were a lot of parking spaces available elsewhere (no doubt at a charge) and there was no guarantee that the parked vehicles belonged to people attending the ceremony but the ceremony should have taken only a short time and then all cars still there afterwards could still have been ticketed. :mad

The article says that this took place "during the two-minute silence". Now I am not someone who insists that people are respectful of others but issuing tickets during a solemn ceremony is getting a bit low - even for traffic wardens.
No doubt they are on patrol around the town on normal sundays looking for church services to target. :tantrum:

Joe Black
12th November 2007, 21:50
From what I see, the main point of Rememberance sunday should be to make sure we never end up in that situation again.

It seems to be a message which countries which have undergone occupation are a lot better at putting forwardStrangely enough, in Belgium though - one of those occupied countries - Armistice/Remembrance day, for most, appears to be simply just another bank holiday. Though there were some decent articles in the press explaining why lots of Brits come here at this time of year.

Antwerp apparently has something going on at the moment with pictures of people who were shipped off to Auschwitz. The only city which rounded up the Jews before the Germans even arrived apparently. So I guess that's also something to remember...


Edit: sorry, couldn't help having a dig at the Flemish. ;)

wendigo100
12th November 2007, 21:57
Strangely enough, in Belgium though - one of those occupied countries - Armistice/Remembrance day, for most, appears to be simply just another bank holiday.That's because Belgians don't fight in wars ... they host them.

Cowboy Bob
12th November 2007, 22:02
That was my point really - is it? The language is about pride, and bravery and nobility and people "giving" their lives, not about rememberance. I've no problem with paying respects to those who died, but what should be forefront in our minds is that those lives were wasted. We shouldn't feel pride, we should feel shame that our leaders (and I'm counting both sides) engaged in the wholesale slaughter of young men and that we let them.

I do sound like a peacenick.:rolleyes:

Interesting that those that are so opposed to political correctness on the one hand, suddenly jump up and down when someone else has an opposing view regarding Armistice Day because it is "correct" to go with the majority viewpoint.

Personally I also think in the same manner as VectraMan. Yes I had family in the wars, as most English people did. However, my Grandad, who is a WW2 vet was staunchly anti any celebration of the victory of the war - because that is how he, and I, view Armistice Day. It is a victory parade by any other name.

The reason he had his view is because he was a POW for the last 2 years of the war and he got to know a lot of the German soldiers personally. Many of them became lifelong friends. Why? Because they were just like him. Ordinary soldiers doing their jobs. And that is why he found Armistice Day distasteful. He felt it disrespected his German friends who got killed in the war. And that is how I feel as well. There's nothing wrong with quiet reflection, but the way that Armistice Day is presented nowadays I think disrespects those who died on the other side. They are not even given a second thought in all the build up or the parade. After all, a human life is a human life, regardless of which side they happen to have had the misfortune to be born on.

mace
12th November 2007, 22:06
So are you saying that we should not have gone to war against the Germans in WW2?

I'd say that that is one war which we should have fought. Wars that shouldn't have been fought include:-

WW1 - As I understand it, prior to the war a network of alliances had been signed between nations in the belief that nobody would attack another country for fear of causing a world war. As France, Germany & Russia's war plans required on a rapid attack, rather than stand back and think of the consequences, when Austro-Hungary lit the fuse by threatening Serbia, a domino effect led rapidly to a world war. We entered the war as Germany's war plan relied on them invading Belgium whom we'd signed an alliance with.

Net result: To defend Belgium, we lost 2 million people and our pole position in the world. France's unreasonable armistice terms against Germany (who, after all, lost the most people in WW1) indirectly led to WW2.

Palestine, Malaya - Desire to maintain an outdated empire

Korea - Geopolitics and a wish to contain communism.

Suez - Desire to secure trade route

Iraq - Desire to secure oil

It's hardly a great moral record. We became a great country in the late 18th century by being the first country to industrialise (increasing our share of world trade from around 2% to 25% in the space of around 50 years). The expansion of the empire in the 2nd half of the 19th century was as a direct result of a decline in world trade caused by countries like Germany and the US industrialising and being better able to compete with us. The idea was that by having an empire we would then have a ready market for our goods and would be able to acquire natural resources that we could use to manufacture goods. It should be remembered that prior to the 1780s, countries like China and India had a far greater share of world trade than we did. A state of affairs which we are likely to return to very shortly.

What I'd like to take from Remembrance Day is that no country is better than another country. We all have our time in the sun.

wendigo100
12th November 2007, 22:17
However, my Grandad, who is a WW2 vet was staunchly anti any celebration of the victory of the war - because that is how he, and I, view Armistice Day. It is a victory parade by any other name. It would be interesting to know how many other people misunderstand the purpose of Armistice Day as you do.

DodgyAgent
12th November 2007, 22:22
I'd say that that is one war which we should have fought. Wars that shouldn't have been fought include:-

WW1 - As I understand it, prior to the war a network of alliances had been signed between nations in the belief that nobody would attack another country for fear of causing a world war. As France, Germany & Russia's war plans required on a rapid attack, rather than stand back and think of the consequences, when Austro-Hungary lit the fuse by threatening Serbia, a domino effect led rapidly to a world war. We entered the war as Germany's war plan relied on them invading Belgium whom we'd signed an alliance with.

Net result: To defend Belgium, we lost 2 million people and our pole position in the world. France's unreasonable armistice terms against Germany (who, after all, lost the most people in WW1) indirectly led to WW2.

Palestine, Malaya - Desire to maintain an outdated empire

Korea - Geopolitics and a wish to contain communism.

Suez - Desire to secure trade route

Iraq - Desire to secure oil

It's hardly a great moral record. We became a great country in the late 18th century by being the first country to industrialise (increasing our share of world trade from around 2% to 25% in the space of around 50 years). The expansion of the empire in the 2nd half of the 19th century was as a direct result of a decline in world trade caused by countries like Germany and the US industrialising and being better able to compete with us. The idea was that by having an empire we would then have a ready market for our goods and would be able to acquire natural resources that we could use to manufacture goods. It should be remembered that prior to the 1780s, countries like China and India had a far greater share of world trade than we did. A state of affairs which we are likely to return to very shortly.

What I'd like to take from Remembrance Day is that no country is better than another country. We all have our time in the sun.

What a great back of a stamp analysis of English History, just a shame you felt a need to pad the mind boggling facts out with so much waffle.

Just as well your simpleton lack of understanding of contemporary complex politics was not entrusted with running anything important then. You take what you like out of remembrance Sunday but to most of us it was nothing to do with furthering the Orwellian notion that "all animals are equal", it was remembering how people died in order that people like you can say whatever you like.

The majority of those who acknowledge remembrance day have no need to worry about a guilty sense of having to feel "equal" with everyone else (perhaps you would care to explain what you mean by "equal"?)

DodgyAgent
12th November 2007, 22:26
It would be interesting to know how many other people misunderstand the purpose of Armistice Day as you do.

Like every other facet of our culture and history and success it is an easy target for the guilt ridden English (ooh sorry "British") pillock that reverberates through our government its precious state and the BBC.

Cowboy Bob
12th November 2007, 22:38
It would be interesting to know how many other people misunderstand the purpose of Armistice Day as you do.

I know the purpose, or the supposed purpose. It is a victory parade because only the British soldiers are remembered. It fulfils its purpose when, and only when, those on the other side are remembered as well.

KentPhilip
13th November 2007, 02:21
I know the purpose, or the supposed purpose. It is a victory parade because only the British soldiers are remembered. It fulfils its purpose when, and only when, those on the other side are remembered as well.

No I don't agree. The way I see it is that remembrance is to give thanks to the brave soldiers who gave their lives to our country. Although we might (theoretically) honour the Nazi soldiers who also died we can't thank them because they did nothing for us. Also the fact that they were trying to kill us does nothing to promote an atmosphere of thankfulness.

I don't see it as a victory parade at all. The one I went to was just plain sad. Bit like a funeral really. Which I suppose it was in a way.

Diver
13th November 2007, 05:52
I know the purpose, or the supposed purpose. It is a victory parade because only the British soldiers are remembered. It fulfils its purpose when, and only when, those on the other side are remembered as well.

It is a rememberence for those that defended us from an aggressor, those on the other side are remembered, as those that would have enslaved us had our young men not died protecting us.
If your family was murdered by some bloke and the murderer died, would you hold a memorial service every year in honor of his memory.
Get real :frown

Cowboy Bob
13th November 2007, 07:48
It is a rememberence for those that defended us from an aggressor, those on the other side are remembered, as those that would have enslaved us had our young men not died protecting us.
If your family was murdered by some bloke and the murderer died, would you hold a memorial service every year in honor of his memory.
Get real :frown

The murderers were the politicians. The soldiers on the ground were innocent vicitms - on both sides.

Churchill
13th November 2007, 07:49
It is a rememberence for those that defended us from an aggressor, those on the other side are remembered, as those that would have enslaved us had our young men not died protecting us.
If your family was murdered by some bloke and the murderer died, would you hold a memorial service every year in honor of his memory.
Get real :frown

There were conscripted troops on all sides who died.

Remembrance day for me is remembering the sad loss of life during all wars.

Btw Diver, war isn't murder.

Moscow Mule
13th November 2007, 08:00
I know the purpose, or the supposed purpose. It is a victory parade because only the British soldiers are remembered. It fulfils its purpose when, and only when, those on the other side are remembered as well.

Point of fact:
Not only British soldiers are remembered - All of the Allied nations get to place a wreath at the Cenotaph.

The Germans don't commemorate their war dead on Nov 11th as it's the start of Karneval, but their equivalent is Volkstrauertag - you can look the rest up.

Diver
13th November 2007, 08:22
There were conscripted troops on all sides who died.

Remembrance day for me is remembering the sad loss of life during all wars.

Btw Diver, war isn't murder.

Of course you are completely right Churchy.

Lets remember those poor men of the SS and those poor dedicated Germans who ran the concentration camps :confused:

Churchill
13th November 2007, 08:25
Of course you are completely right Churchy.

Lets remember those poor men of the SS and those poor dedicated Germans who ran the concentration camps :confused:

Come back when you've grown up. Then we'll have a discussion about people, who by accident of birth were on one side or another of a futile conflict that cost millions of lives worldwide.

Until then, keep spouting your emotional claptrap.

TimberWolf
13th November 2007, 08:26
Lets remember those poor men of the SS and those poor dedicated Germans who ran the concentration camps

The allies did some pretty despicable things too, not least the Russians.

Diver
13th November 2007, 08:29
Tell you what, let's just remember the innocents that die in warfare.

Churchill
13th November 2007, 09:11
Tell you what, let's just remember the innocents that die in warfare.

Agreed.

wendigo100
13th November 2007, 09:41
Agreed. And the guilty. But for a quirk of genetics, nurture and culture they were innocents too.

BoredBloke
13th November 2007, 09:52
"I know the purpose, or the supposed purpose. It is a victory parade because only the British soldiers are remembered. It fulfils its purpose when, and only when, those on the other side are remembered as well."

Can't agree with that. The one I went to did not have any of the trappings of a victory parade. It was a sombre affair and quite moving when you see the last few of these people who defended our country. As has been mentioned by others it is a time to reflect and thank those who paid the ultimate price - under those circumstances you are hardly going to thank the opposing forces for giving them the chance to go to war and get killed.

wendigo100
13th November 2007, 09:54
I agree. I've never witnessed anything on remembrance day that resembles a victory parade.

That's VE and VJ days.

The Lone Gunman
13th November 2007, 10:09
Surprised at you Bob.
VE and VJ days are victory celebrations and we did those earlier.

Many of the armistice day parades take place at tombs of soldiers, ours is an unknown. The naionality ofthe body is not known either. Our parade may be taking place over a Brit or a German. Nobody knows and it makes it that much more poingnant.

Armistice day is all about hoping that it never happens again.

Some of you are attaching meaning to it that does not exist either for those who take part or for those of us who observe.

Obviously our veterans are remembering their fallen comrades, but many veterans (particularly WW 1 & 2) are trying or have managed to reconcile their hatred of the enemy and have realised that the soldiers on the ground were doing their duty, possibly under duress, just as they were.

With true belief in armistice we work towards peace.

The last thing that this is about is glorifying war.

Churchill
13th November 2007, 10:23
Surprised at you Bob.
VE and VJ days are victory celebrations and we did those earlier.

Many of the armistice day parades take place at tombs of soldiers, ours is an unknown. The naionality ofthe body is not known either. Our parade may be taking place over a Brit or a German. Nobody knows and it makes it that much more poingnant.

Armistice day is all about hoping that it never happens again.

Some of you are attaching meaning to it that does not exist either for those who take part or for those of us who observe.

Obviously our veterans are remembering their fallen comrades, but many veterans (particularly WW 1 & 2) are trying or have managed to reconcile their hatred of the enemy and have realised that the soldiers on the ground were doing their duty, possibly under duress, just as they were.

With true belief in armistice we work towards peace.

The last thing that this is about is glorifying war.

I couldn't put it better myself, and didn't.

Thanks.

Spacecadet
13th November 2007, 10:29
Antwerp apparently has something going on at the moment with pictures of people who were shipped off to Auschwitz. The only city which rounded up the Jews before the Germans even arrived apparently. So I guess that's also something to remember...


I was in Antwerp quite recently... there definitely still seems to be a very large Jewish community there

Bagpuss
13th November 2007, 10:30
My uncle was in a prisoner of war camp in Burma building the bridge over the river Kwai. He left around 12 stones and came back under 6. Some of his stories of torture, death and general courage in adversity were truely shocking. I can't imagine what it would have been like. Today we are not real men like those guys were.

DimPrawn
13th November 2007, 10:33
My uncle was in a prisoner of war camp in Burma building the bridge over the river Kwai. He left around 12 stones and came back under 6. Some of his stories of torture, death and general courage in adversity were truely shocking. I can't imagine what it would have been like. Today we are not real men like those guys were.

Perhaps SallyAnne should have a go at building a bridge in Burma. :smile