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Goldman Sachs' sub-prime bet pays off

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    Goldman Sachs' sub-prime bet pays off

    Goldman Sachs' sub-prime bet pays off

    By James Quinn, Wall Street Correspondent
    Last Updated: 3:26pm GMT 18/12/2007

    Bankers at Goldman Sachs are set to share a $20.2bn (£10bn) bonus pool on the back of a record year at one of Wall Street's most prestigious names.

    Goldman, reporting a bumper 2007 profit of $11.6bn for the year to November, revealed that total bonuses for the 12 month period were $20.19bn, a 23pc rise on 2006's $16.5bn pool.

    It employs approximately 29,900 people around the world, which means the average bonus per worker is $675,250 (AtW's comment: this of course does not mean every worker gets that much), compared with around $640,000 last year when there were slightly fewer staff.

    The majority of bankers and other staff eligible for bonuses were informed of the payments they will receive last week, however it is only now, with the publication of the fourth-quarter results, that the outside world is given a glimpse into Goldman's highly remunerative culture.

    Ironically, however, in spite of the fact that Goldman's bonus pool will be the biggest by far on Wall Street, Goldman paid out just 43.9pc of net revenue, a figure somewhat less than the majority of its competitors.

    Goldman's record financial out-turn came on the back of some stunning one-way bets against the sub-prime mortgage sector, which has had a disastrous 12 month period as US homeowners struggle to cope with resetting interest rates.

    The bank reported a fourth-quarter profit before tax of $3.22bn on revenues of $10.74bn, up 2pc and 14pc respectively on the same period last year.

    Of particular note was the performance achieved in investment banking, with full-year revenues of $7.54bn, up 34pc on 2006, driven by demand for financial advisory, up 98pc in the fourth quarter 2007 against fourth quarter 2006, and equity underwriting work.

    The firm's trading and principal investments arm also shone, however, for it was from within this division that the decision to bet against sub-prime mortgages was taken.

    Overall, trading and principal investment revenues were up 22pc to $31.23bn.

    Chairman and chief executive Lloyd Blankfein, who is expected to pick up a $70m package as a result of the firm's success this year, said: "We are ever mindful of the importance of effective risk management. We continue to see significant growth opportunities across the global economy."

    ---

    Ok, so what do we have here: on one hand lots of banks in the world lost money because they put them into subprime carp, on the other hand this bank is very successful.

    But did it invest money into new technologies like say those designed to replace fossil fuels and thus they made lots of money? No.

    Maybe they invested money into new development of new drugs against cancer, succeeded and now reap the benefits of their smart investment? No.

    Perhaps then they invested money into something mundane like say healthy foods, or new movies that make people think? No.

    What they did is bet against the market and win. Effectively they made money on other people's misery - frankly those banks that lost money on subprime carp deserve it, however it is a very bad thing that successful bank is not the bank that invested elsewhere, but the bank that made financial bet and won.

    Conclusion - windfall tax on such behavior to that no money left to give such bonuses. Perhaps next time they will invest money into something useful for humanity. Thoughts?

    #2
    Correction:

    Originally posted by AtW View Post
    Effectively they made money on other people's stupidity

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by AtW View Post
      Goldman Sachs' sub-prime bet pays off

      By James Quinn, Wall Street Correspondent
      Last Updated: 3:26pm GMT 18/12/2007

      Bankers at Goldman Sachs are set to share a $20.2bn (£10bn) bonus pool on the back of a record year at one of Wall Street's most prestigious names.

      Goldman, reporting a bumper 2007 profit of $11.6bn for the year to November, revealed that total bonuses for the 12 month period were $20.19bn, a 23pc rise on 2006's $16.5bn pool.

      It employs approximately 29,900 people around the world, which means the average bonus per worker is $675,250 (AtW's comment: this of course does not mean every worker gets that much), compared with around $640,000 last year when there were slightly fewer staff.

      The majority of bankers and other staff eligible for bonuses were informed of the payments they will receive last week, however it is only now, with the publication of the fourth-quarter results, that the outside world is given a glimpse into Goldman's highly remunerative culture.

      Ironically, however, in spite of the fact that Goldman's bonus pool will be the biggest by far on Wall Street, Goldman paid out just 43.9pc of net revenue, a figure somewhat less than the majority of its competitors.

      Goldman's record financial out-turn came on the back of some stunning one-way bets against the sub-prime mortgage sector, which has had a disastrous 12 month period as US homeowners struggle to cope with resetting interest rates.

      The bank reported a fourth-quarter profit before tax of $3.22bn on revenues of $10.74bn, up 2pc and 14pc respectively on the same period last year.

      Of particular note was the performance achieved in investment banking, with full-year revenues of $7.54bn, up 34pc on 2006, driven by demand for financial advisory, up 98pc in the fourth quarter 2007 against fourth quarter 2006, and equity underwriting work.

      The firm's trading and principal investments arm also shone, however, for it was from within this division that the decision to bet against sub-prime mortgages was taken.

      Overall, trading and principal investment revenues were up 22pc to $31.23bn.

      Chairman and chief executive Lloyd Blankfein, who is expected to pick up a $70m package as a result of the firm's success this year, said: "We are ever mindful of the importance of effective risk management. We continue to see significant growth opportunities across the global economy."

      ---

      Ok, so what do we have here: on one hand lots of banks in the world lost money because they put them into subprime carp, on the other hand this bank is very successful.

      But did it invest money into new technologies like say those designed to replace fossil fuels and thus they made lots of money? No.

      Maybe they invested money into new development of new drugs against cancer, succeeded and now reap the benefits of their smart investment? No.

      Perhaps then they invested money into something mundane like say healthy foods, or new movies that make people think? No.

      What they did is bet against the market and win. Effectively they made money on other people's misery - frankly those banks that lost money on subprime carp deserve it, however it is a very bad thing that successful bank is not the bank that invested elsewhere, but the bank that made financial bet and won.

      Conclusion - windfall tax on such behavior to that no money left to give such bonuses. Perhaps next time they will invest money into something useful for humanity. Thoughts?
      Oh FFS, what do you think banks do? You reckon some guy sat down one day and took a punt? Banks play markets every day. Markets create winners and losers every day. People lose jobs, farmers lose land, shareholders lose cash, every day. People who're losing thier houses due to this shouldn't have overextended themselves as much as they did, and the banks who gave it, and the other banks who bought the risk shouldn't have lent it.

      Goldmans didn't just get lucky with this, they invest hundreds of millions in technology, in research, in staff etc etc to come up with this kind of strategy - they're famous in the market for paying the most, and working you the hardest. They generally do very very well.

      How naive can you be?
      Hang on - there is actually a place called Cheddar?? - cailin maith

      Any forum is a collection of assorted weirdos, cranks and pervs - Board Game Geek

      That will be a simply fab time to catch up for a beer. - Tay

      Have you ever seen somebody lick the chutney spoon in an Indian Restaurant and put it back ? - Cyberghoul

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by snaw View Post
        How naive can you be?
        I am not naive. I know what they do better then you. And since I understand economics better than you I see much better where this kind of behavior will lead - bad things for the West if banks earn by playing on financial markets, Chinese banks earn by investing into enterprises that generate money.

        Comment


          #5
          Yes, atw's Business Admin degree has taught him the importance of making sure all paperwork is up to date.

          A clean desk policy also helps.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Clippy View Post
            Yes, atw's Business Admin degree
            The point is not my degree. The point is that what appears to be the only bank that rides the storm of subprime carp market is the one that was betting that market will go carp - it is the same as hedge funds selling short Northern Rock betting that stock price will go down, so they can buyback shares cheaper than they sold, often those shares are not their own. Sure their bets can work, but this means that banks in the west make money from financial games rather than from investments into things that will keep West competitive.

            Comment


              #7
              Strange, for someone who understands economics 'better than me', you've really not quite got to grips with capatalism, have you?

              Guessing you're text books didn't progress much beyond Das Kapital ...
              Hang on - there is actually a place called Cheddar?? - cailin maith

              Any forum is a collection of assorted weirdos, cranks and pervs - Board Game Geek

              That will be a simply fab time to catch up for a beer. - Tay

              Have you ever seen somebody lick the chutney spoon in an Indian Restaurant and put it back ? - Cyberghoul

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by snaw View Post
                Strange, for someone who understands economics 'better than me', you've really not quite got to grips with capatalism, have you?

                Guessing you're text books didn't progress much beyond Das Kapital ...
                Ahem, a word to the wise... At least AtW can spell "capitalism"...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by bored View Post
                  Correction:"Effectively they made money on other people's stupidity"
                  God made them sheep so they would be fleeced.

                  Mind you, not sure that GS should have been acting as broker creating more of these sub-prime thingies while betting they were going to explode.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Churchill View Post
                    Ahem, a word to the wise... At least AtW can spell "capitalism"...
                    Fair enough. I've missed you Churchill, like I'd miss genital warts.
                    Hang on - there is actually a place called Cheddar?? - cailin maith

                    Any forum is a collection of assorted weirdos, cranks and pervs - Board Game Geek

                    That will be a simply fab time to catch up for a beer. - Tay

                    Have you ever seen somebody lick the chutney spoon in an Indian Restaurant and put it back ? - Cyberghoul

                    Comment

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