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pob1408
17th January 2004, 08:20
Just finished a three month contract with BMW through these guys and have had nothing but problems. From the outset they would not agree to BMW's terms and conditions and this took ages to sort out. From then on they have not paid me regularly, have lost my timesheets and have lost my invoices (even though they have access to Giant Group's portal!).

I threathened them with quiting the contract and their reply (from one of their regional mangers was "if you do then we'll sue!")

My advise is don't use this company for any contracting work - it's nothing but hassle all the way.

Anybody else have any similar problems?

Vetran
17th January 2004, 15:45
if they have failed to pay you according to contract terms and you have documentary proof then they have broken the contract. They can sue but as they broke it then they won't have much luck.

But of course get legal advice first. If you are part of the PCG they have a free legal advice line as do I believe the FSB( a member may be able to help on this?).

Be careful naming and shaming if you don't have proof that stands up in court. CUK /ezboard may have to edit your post to protect themselves as they are 'publishing' this accusation by virtue of the fact its on their bulletin board.

its better to obscure a name so we all know who you mean such as 'chamberpot international' or 'pathwee IT resourcing'.

IANAL etc.

bangface
23rd June 2006, 17:26
if they have failed to pay you according to contract terms and you have documentary proof then they have broken the contract. They can sue but as they broke it then they won't have much luck.

But of course get legal advice first. If you are part of the PCG they have a free legal advice line as do I believe the FSB( a member may be able to help on this?).

Be careful naming and shaming if you don't have proof that stands up in court. CUK /ezboard may have to edit your post to protect themselves as they are 'publishing' this accusation by virtue of the fact its on their bulletin board.

its better to obscure a name so we all know who you mean such as 'chamberpot international' or 'pathwee IT resourcing'.

IANAL etc.

Partway is quite fitting...

wackadu
26th June 2006, 10:37
I have sent them a letter to have my details from their database.

I have found them too aggressive in their approach, and they constantly spam me with pointless emails.

****ers also messsed up a good opportunity at a great compamny for me.

errorista
26th June 2006, 11:18
Part of the SucksThree Jockies club.

:banana:

Coding4FUN
8th November 2006, 11:50
Pathway is my agent currently, they seem to do the Job. The guy i work with is good anyway.

Cowboy Bob
8th November 2006, 12:36
:spam:

senditback
8th November 2006, 12:42
New to this board SPAM?

Mordac
8th November 2006, 12:43
Pathway is my agent currently, they seem to do the Job. The guy i work with is good anyway.

How many references did he manage to get out of you? :rolleyes:

Coding4FUN
8th November 2006, 12:48
HAHA, probably a few at the time, been with him a while now tho so dont think he would bother asking anymore......

Mordac
8th November 2006, 12:55
HAHA, probably a few at the time, been with him a while now tho so dont think he would bother asking anymore......


Hmmm. He hasn't tried replacing you with someone cheaper? That can only mean you're on a really shit rate and he's coining it in. Their margins start at 30%, so don't say you weren't warned.
And I'm glad the thought of him spamming all your refs amuses you. I'd chin the ****er

tim123
8th November 2006, 12:56
And what margin is he stiffing you for?
(Genuinely interested. I have a job opportunity from them in my in box at the moment.)

tim

Mordac
8th November 2006, 13:02
He isn't. I wouldn't touch them with your shitty stick. One of the other S3 crowd took me for 34% a few years back (in the very lean years). It's their business model. They won't even submit you if you're too expensive.

Coding4FUN
8th November 2006, 13:02
In my 3rd contract through them, i get paid 400 and they take 90. not sure about the previous two. but my rate has gone up between each contract. I only know this as my manager told me.

Mordac
8th November 2006, 13:17
That's £21K over a 48 week year. That's probably why they don't mind reducing the % in your case. No wonder your pimp loves you.

tim123
8th November 2006, 13:28
In my 3rd contract through them, i get paid 400 and they take 90. not sure about the previous two. but my rate has gone up between each contract. I only know this as my manager told me.

Why do you need your manager to tell you that your rate has gone up?

:bluelight

tim

Coding4FUN
10th November 2006, 12:20
i think you mis-understood me Tim. My manager told me what i was charged in at..

Cactus
10th November 2006, 12:39
That's £21K over a 48 week year. That's probably why they don't mind reducing the % in your case. No wonder your pimp loves you.

That's approx 22% I would seriously start to negotiate that down to nearer the 10% mark.

senditback
10th November 2006, 12:59
how do you do that then?, does that actually benefit us if they charge the company less?

scriptfromscratch
10th November 2006, 13:02
it does if it means we get more

senditback
10th November 2006, 13:05
exactly but how does that rate effect what we earn?

scriptfromscratch
10th November 2006, 13:11
that works if they have a fixed charge to the client that the client is aware of. if they are just scalping as much as they can by closing the contractor and the client high then there is room for negotiation. but if they've told the client that it will cost £90/day to use them then there's no reason to get more i guess

senditback
10th November 2006, 13:27
How do you know if its a fixed rate then? I'd be quiet interested in this if I can get more money?

scriptfromscratch
10th November 2006, 13:38
well if they charge something like a finders fee of say between £75-£100/day to the client regardless of overall budget and as long as you were happy to accept the rate they offered you then there is no scope for increase. As the client knew how much it would cost to use that agency and chose to pay that much. However, if it is the case that the client has no idea how much you or the agency is making then you can probably squeeze the agents cut as he won't want to reveal how much he is taking to the client. Bear in mind though that most agencies smaller than Hays and the like will never take work to anywhere near as low as 10%.

senditback
10th November 2006, 14:06
Im currently through these guys. Anyone know much about them?

This is my third contract with them. I have always been satisfied with my rate so never came to me to ask? Any suggestions or can this cause friction?

tim123
10th November 2006, 14:13
How strange. Two individuals, both on their third contract through the same agent.

Anyway. You have to find the margin by finding out what the client is paying. The agent may tell you this, but even if he does, you might not believe him.

Alternatively, you can find out what rate the other cons are on. If they are on 5/10% more or less than you, then it is almost certain that the difference is going in the agents pocket.

Usually, swapping rate info with an experienced con is one of the first things that a newbie does. It's the only way you will find out the "going rate" is. No-one else is going to tell you. And there's two of you here that haven't done it :suicide:

tim

senditback
10th November 2006, 14:19
Rates is something I ahve never really brought up with other cons on the same site. Tim what would you do to establish this with them, what stand point to I have to get more and reduce their percentage if that spossible?

scriptfromscratch
10th November 2006, 14:22
ahh the tricky subject of rates, as an experienced con if anyone brought that up it would instantly ring alarm bells with me. I don't think i'd tell you how much I was on, look in the car park that should give you a fair guesstimate.

senditback
10th November 2006, 14:28
ahh the tricky subject of rates, as an experienced con if anyone brought that up it would instantly ring alarm bells with me. I don't think i'd tell you how much I was on, look in the car park that should give you a fair guesstimate.

You have misunderstood me, I want to establish if im entitled to more money from them? I have alway been told he charges 20 -30% dependant upon the agreement they have in place. Can I affect this to get more money?

Torran
10th November 2006, 14:37
Are you happy with your rate?

Was there any negotiation at the start of the contract?

Why do you believe you should get an increase?

Has your role and scope changed or increased?

senditback
10th November 2006, 15:14
Yes happy with rate, £40/hour, previous contract £35.

There wasnt any negotiation. I had a target of £300.day and this position met that so there was no need to negotiate from my side especially as its on my door step.

It isn't a case that I believ I should be paid more, but if there is scope to do it then I'd be daft not to try.

last point no my role hasn't changed, it is what it said on the tin.

?

Coding4FUN
10th November 2006, 16:03
Then i would be happy. I always value my time and skills, and if the agent gets that for me, all well and good.

I think its easy to get hung up on increases just for the sake of it. If i feel i am worth more than the contract is paying me, then i wouldnt take it in the 1st place. If i feel i am worth the increse then then i aim to get it.

tim123
10th November 2006, 19:00
ahh the tricky subject of rates, as an experienced con if anyone brought that up it would instantly ring alarm bells with me. I don't think i'd tell you how much I was on, look in the car park that should give you a fair guesstimate.

Obviously you don't just wander up and ask someone that you don't know.

You first get to know them. Socialise with them (coffee machine, lunchtime drink etc). Discuss (and bitch about) agencies and then drop in the question about rates. You could take 6-8 weeks before it is appropriate to ask.

If you haven't managed it before, it can also be helpful to do this when you are leaving. This leaves you prepared for next time.

As an experienced 'con' I don't mind swapping rates if I feel that I am on a 'normal' rate. But if I've managed to get a really good deal I might be wary.

I managed to avoid being ripped off in the past 8 years, but have some nasty experiences from before then.

tim

ilgitano
14th November 2006, 00:52
ahh the tricky subject of rates, as an experienced con if anyone brought that up it would instantly ring alarm bells with me. I don't think i'd tell you how much I was on, look in the car park that should give you a fair guesstimate.

Why shy to talk rates? (maybe thats a dumb question?) But the only people I can think of with a percentage in me not knowing other rates is the agent. What would be my percentage in my not telling a fellow con what my rate is? If his is better, then maybe I can do better - if I can match his skill set. If I'm doing better, then he can do better. Only argument I can think of is that it may foster discontent in the ranks. I think I would be shy discussing rates withy a permie for that reason, but not a fellow con. I guess I should be fearful of non-disclosure terms in a contract ... ?

DeadKenny
14th November 2006, 22:44
My advise is don't use this company for any contracting work - it's nothing but hassle all the way.

Anybody else have any similar problems?
I've used them with success for permie jobs. Had considered approaching them about my first contract.

tim123
15th November 2006, 09:40
Anyway.

This bunch of sharks approached me again last week.

Good match for my skills, immediate interviews, start in 4 weeks - which meets my needs if I don't get a renewall here.

I replied, "interested", they requested a new CV, so I sent that. Never to hear from them again.

Any more mails that I received from this bunch are now redirected to my trash can.

tim

scriptfromscratch
15th November 2006, 18:06
name and shame this time tim?

tim123
16th November 2006, 11:16
Um, it's in the title of the thread.

tim

scriptfromscratch
16th November 2006, 11:28
no! the agent involved, its useless writing off a whole agency when there could be 80 or so individuals in it theres bound to be a few good ones. tell us the who the crook are and we can avoid them like a plague

tim123
16th November 2006, 12:42
It's the company mentality to work like this.

It isn't the individual agent.

tim

Flubster
16th November 2006, 12:47
It's the company mentality to work like this.

It isn't the individual agent.

tim
Nonsense! Are you going to say all contractors are great because you are? There are good eggs, average eggs and bad eggs in every organisation. And let's face it, the good eggs can have a bad day...

tim123
16th November 2006, 13:18
Nonsense! Are you going to say all contractors are great because you are? There are good eggs, average eggs and bad eggs in every organisation. And let's face it, the good eggs can have a bad day...

No,

But I have dealt with three agents at Pathway.

All have treated me like the dirt on their shoe.

tim

Flubster
16th November 2006, 13:27
No,

But I have dealt with three agents at Pathway.

All have treated me like the dirt on their shoe.

tim
The fourth one might be okay though. Never got a gig through them myself, but happy to chat with them if I get stuck on traffic. saves listening to the radio.

Coding4FUN
17th November 2006, 12:52
I tend to think every1 including agents treat you fair if you treat them with a level of respect. Tim if you keep having a recurring problems with agencies and being screwwed over, maybe you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction?

Any thoughts?

Cliphead
17th November 2006, 13:05
I tend to think every1 including agents treat you fair if you treat them with a level of respect. Tim if you keep having a recurring problems with agencies and being screwwed over, maybe you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction?


Not sure about that one...

I rarely hear the words agent and respect used in the same sentence.

Ardesco
17th November 2006, 13:24
Surely it's Agent -> Scum :)

One of my most memorable moments is meeting and old childhood freind at a wedding, he was with his current girlfriend and I was with my wife.

He introduced his girlfreind and my wife asked her what she did for a living. She replied "Recruitment Consultant", to which my wife replied "Oh, you mean scum". The look on her face was priceless, as was the look on my wife's face as she realised what she had said and apologised profusely.

:talk:

Cliphead
17th November 2006, 13:27
Surely it's Agent -> Scum :)

One of my most memorable moments is meeting and old childhood freind at a wedding, he was with his current girlfriend and I was with my wife.

He introduced his girlfreind and my wife asked her what she did for a living. She replied "Recruitment Consultant", to which my wife replied "Oh, you mean scum". The look on her face was priceless, as was the look on my wife's face as she realised what she had said and apologised profusely.

Quality :rollin:

scriptfromscratch
17th November 2006, 13:36
:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:
:rollin:
:rollin:
:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

sounds like Mrs Collin is just as bitter as you mark, that's hillarious!

tim123
17th November 2006, 13:40
I tend to think every1 including agents treat you fair if you treat them with a level of respect.

You having been doing this long have you?

Or you have a very low 'respect' requirement.

I'm not referring to politeness here. They are eminently polite, whilst they are lying through their teeth.

tim

Ardesco
17th November 2006, 13:50
:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:
:rollin:
:rollin:
:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

sounds like Mrs Collin is just as bitter as you mark, that's hillarious!

Not so much bitter, just used to them being reffered to as scum evey time I talk to them (e.g. "who was that on the phone?" "Scum." "Oh OK.") :)

senditback
17th November 2006, 13:59
Your wife obviously got nobbed by an agent then got left high and dry. Is this where the bitterness comes from?

Ardesco
17th November 2006, 14:03
:rolleyes:

Always one that has to take it to far isn't there...

Come back when you have progressed through puberty.

Coding4FUN
17th November 2006, 14:04
Well i have not yet become bitter as i have not yet had the need. 5 Contracts under the belt and hopefully more to come. I think my take on things at the end of the day is that i dont care what they do as long as they get me the rate i want and i keep getting jobs.

As i`ve said in previous posts, as long as i'm happy with what i get paid i will stay in a role. What an agent agrees with a client in a sence is non of my business.

Im sure this will beget a torrent of people's views however " tell them what you are worth! if you get, it happy days, if you dont DONT TAKE THE JOB!"

senditback
17th November 2006, 14:08
:rolleyes:

Always one that has to take it to far isn't there...

Come back when you have progressed through puberty.


That was just banter, no offence intended. Apologies if I touched a nerve

Coding4FUN
17th November 2006, 14:13
Not so much bitter, just used to them being reffered to as scum evey time I talk to them (e.g. "who was that on the phone?" "Scum." "Oh OK.") :)


If you have been affected by any of the issues raised in this thread please feel free to call the adultery helpline on 0800 138 1111. Calls wil be charged at 30p/pm.

Remember there are always people who will listen.....

senditback
17th November 2006, 14:15
:yay: ha ha ha

Cowboy Bob
17th November 2006, 14:15
Surely it's Agent -> Scum :)

One of my most memorable moments is meeting and old childhood freind at a wedding, he was with his current girlfriend and I was with my wife.

He introduced his girlfreind and my wife asked her what she did for a living. She replied "Recruitment Consultant", to which my wife replied "Oh, you mean scum". The look on her face was priceless, as was the look on my wife's face as she realised what she had said and apologised profusely.

:talk:

Interestingly enough my brother's girlfriend works for an agency (that isn't Summer, Autumn or Winter) and I've referred to her many times as a pimp without thinking. As a pimp though, she has a thick skin and just laughs it off.

scriptfromscratch
18th November 2006, 14:27
just had a call from one of these guys at Pathway . . . its 14.26 on a Saturday! I told him he should go home, then he booked me in for an interview on Monday. ruined my weekend.

barely_pointless
22nd November 2006, 03:52
ah, I thought it was just me, (bear in mind i'm in oz, and I did look at a "prospect" in the UK last year - a very lucrative 700+GBP a day for "old rope contract", s'ok to discuss as it's dead now), but these clowns send me an email about once a week for work in the Thames Valley, or joyous and pork free Frankfurt (which I said central london only) and it's all very interesting........ :banana:

regarding rates, I always tell new contractors to try and punch higher than their worth, because there is nothing worse than doing a job and thinking you've been taken for a ride (I speak from experience)

Here's the actual deal from my recent experience in Sydney, I generally float between SBA and Specialist (dan't be arsed with PM work as it involves licking too much :moon: ) all rates in aussie dollars or peso's if you wish.

Junior Developer (SQL, warehousing, oracle, teradata) 500+
Senior Developer (as above) 600+
BA( non tech)(varies 450 - 550)
BA(Tech, ie you can write sql and are an ex developer) 600 odd
Senior BA (tech, ie you can code and bullshi**) 650-750
Project Manager (700 + up to 900)

Specialist BA/Tech Consultant(i.e Oracle apps) 800+ a day.

At the moment if you know datastage , informatica or any other potion conjurering data transformation kit, it's about 800 a day give or take.


Agency margins vary, some are like your old computer futures barrow boys and try and take 20-30%, the more professional ones will generally take 10-15% and pay every two weeks (not negotiable)

tim123
22nd November 2006, 08:46
I'm in the wrong job.

Junior developer @ 500+! Are you sure you're not talking aussie dollars?

SQL can't be that hard can it? Coding is coding is coding. It the logical understanding you need to do the job properly, not some language syntax.

I'm a senior embedded bod. This requires normal C programming, but pretty in depth understand of the hardware is required (which not a lot have IME).
The client's paying 330. This is a bit low, but not out of the ball park.

I got the agent down to a 15% margin, I think that this is the lowest that I've ever achieved. Even the guys that I recognise as being the 'honest' ones, reckon that they can't go below 17.5% for the initial period.

Perhaps this is why I have problems with these (S3) guys. For a client paying 360 the difference between 20 and 30% takes the rate into the realms where I could get more as a perm. But if the client's paying 600, (a) you're still going to get a decent rate, (b) the fixed costs (office overheads) of placing someone are going to be a much lower percentage of the total.

Are there really clients out there paying 600 for basic code cutters?

How do I get one of these jobs?

tim

expat
22nd November 2006, 08:56
I'm in the wrong job.

Junior developer @ 500+! Are you sure you're not talking aussie dollars?
tim"all rates in aussie dollars"

:confused:

tim123
22nd November 2006, 09:06
OK seen it now. I just scanned the first line that said GBP.

So how is it people are getting 10% margins as the norm then?

tim

scriptfromscratch
22nd November 2006, 09:44
because they work thru Hays, Reed etc at massive sites like HBOS where they are sole suppliers and as such do the old high volume low margin routine and work to 8%.

malvolio
22nd November 2006, 10:04
because they work thru Hays, Reed etc at massive sites like HBOS where they are sole suppliers and as such do the old high volume low margin routine and work to 8%.

Or take that to the extreme and my last agency was running my services at 4%. Since most agencies seem to agree that in the open market anything much under 10% is commercially unsustainable, they must have had a very solid, cast-iron payment regime from the end client.

The other thought to bear in mind is that margins are constantly being pushed downwards. It won't be that long before the smaller agencies will have to dop out of the market or change the way they make their money...

tim123
22nd November 2006, 12:38
I can see that margins are being pushed downwards, but I'm not seeing the benefit of that, it's coming to me as a cost (either in reduced fees or tougher negotiation).

I've worked for the large multinational companies that have preferred supplier lists and agreed rates. But IME they don't have fixed margin agreements.

My clients are saying ,we're paying 350, take it or leave it and then agents come to me and say "will you work for 250". To which my reply is "no". Some agents will come back and offer 280-300, others will say "OK, we'll look for someone who will then". One or two agents will offer 280 in the first place, but not many.

Edit:

In most cases it is the smaller agencies who are the 'good' guys here. The large agencies, with their cheaper money supply, are the ones who are asking for the bigger margin - because they have a unnecessary heirarchy of salesmen who need to be paid.

tim

scriptfromscratch
22nd November 2006, 12:47
all you ever do is moan mr 123, chin up lad

Coding4FUN
22nd November 2006, 12:49
Here Here!! :yay:

Just chill :cool1:

barely_pointless
23rd November 2006, 00:01
Tim,

I have no idea of what industry you're in, but I was referring in my post to mostly Finance, Datawarehousing, etc, typically Banks, large Insurance (yawn) and the very big and self important corporations that Monty Python (an I ) love to deride.

I would think that sub 300 (GBP) for any form of embedded C work (assuming you must have say a few years (3-4+) under your belt) sounds a bit low ?

Most of the jobs I detailed in my previous post are for fairly experienced people, even the Junior Developer would have say 3-4+ years, The senior you'd be looking at 6-7+ and the Senior BA 12+(yawn me :suicide: ) about 20 years..............I wonder where the time went.........it seems only yesterday I was trying to sneak (late again) into the visitors carpark at stockley park whilst trying to avoid the ex-squaddie security guys who place a large yellow 1 foot square unremovable sticker on the windscreen if you're a conractor and you park in the wrong spot......... :yay:

tim123
23rd November 2006, 10:00
It doesn't matter what industry I'm in. All industries that require embedded skills pay low rates. For generic skills, that will enable you to work on anything from a TV remote control to a nuclear power station, 320 is a good rate (though we do still work on hourly rates). 260 is not uncommon.

Obviously there are some specialisations that pay better, but they are very niche. A current one is "must have three years experience of RRC", there are perhaps 10 people in the world who will have this.

It used to be possible to get a job working on these niche skils without them and ramp yourself up to a good rate. But I'm currently finding that impossible, clients are leaving positions unfilled if they don't get a match. Possibly they take the attitude that if we have to train someone, we will train one of our perms.

I'm also seeing much more outsourcing to India and the like. There are quite a few jobs available 'integrating' the code when it comes back. But I hate this type of work. I hate it generally, but I double hate it when the code that one is being asked to integate is sh1t (which IME it is) and I spend my time thinking, "I could do so much better than this".

Perhaps things will get better if the market continues to pick up, perhaps not.

So, how do I get a bog standard programming job for a bank? It (the work) can't be any harder than what I do do.

Finally, yes I moan all the time, it's my signature

tim

shoes
26th November 2006, 00:12
I've contracted through this lot, their take was 18% of the total cost to the client. I was happy with the rate I was getting for the work, didn't actually need to do all that much, and it was certainly not an effort to be more impressive than the permies in my dept. Agent made me laugh a few times at renewal time and at interview stage with some of the nonsense he was coming out with, but like any agents you just need to read between the lines and remember that they are out for themselves and are not representing you. Just don't get emotionally involved in any of the rubbish, its business ; You get what you can and so do they. I thought all agents were like that, they have been in my experience.