PDA

View Full Version : Are your ears burning?



DimPrawn
21st April 2008, 16:09
The Telegraph are talking about you:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/21/nclass121.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

Around 15 million people - a quarter of the population - are in denial of their true working class status, a study by money*supermarket.com, the financial website, concluded.

It found that one in 10 households purporting to be middle class had an annual income of less than £15,000.

Around 4.5 per cent were using unsecured loans to pay for private school fees, second homes or even household staff, and were in an average of £13,000 in debt.

Loans totalling £35 billion have been taken out to help people maintain a middle-class illusion, but in reality, the lifestyles and spending patterns of the aspiring middle class differed little from the working class.


You are not middle class like sasguru, you are working class and living on credit.

HTH

PRC1964
21st April 2008, 16:12
<snip> purporting to be middle class had an annual income of less than £15,000. </snip>


Damn, my children appear to be working class.

I must increase their pocket money immediately

Charles Foster Kane
21st April 2008, 16:12
That article is in contradiction of a recent episode of 'The Wright Stuff' in that case, upon which most of the panel, and the callers, proclaimed to be working class, even though the majority of them earnt £50,000+ and lived in palatial houses in areas such as Chelsea.

DimPrawn
21st April 2008, 16:15
Yes, there seems to be two types of person obsessed with class.

Those who earn a pittance and live in debt who believe themselves to be middle class, and those earning a fortune, with lots of assets and no debts who believe themselves still to be working class.

Strange world.

I'm upper class, so who cares.

Lucy
21st April 2008, 16:19
Prawny, I've always thought of sas as being 'classless' as in a vagabond entertainer type:

to illustrate... (http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/12536.jpg)

DimPrawn
21st April 2008, 16:23
Prawny, I've always thought of sas as being 'classless' as in a vagabond entertainer type:

to illustrate... (http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/12536.jpg)

:spel

'clueless'

PAH
21st April 2008, 16:25
I've never paid much attention in classes.

Hence I'm a dumb-wit who can't even spell GSCE.

PAH
21st April 2008, 16:26
Prawny, I've always thought of sas as being 'classless' as in a vagabond entertainer type:

to illustrate... (http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/12536.jpg)


That's twice you've inflicted that image on us today. I suspect you're secretly trying to tell us something, such as that is really you! :eek:

Board Game Geek
21st April 2008, 16:31
Actually, as my old Sociology teacher used to explain, it's a bit more complicated that Upper, Middle and Lower Class.

There are strata within each Class as well.

So :

Lower Working Class
Middle Working Class
Upper Working Class

Lower Middle Class
Middle Middle Class
Upper Middle Class

Lower Upper Class
Middle Upper Class
Upper Upper Class

HTH

DimPrawn
21st April 2008, 16:34
Actually, as my old Sociology teacher used to explain, it's a bit more complicated that Upper, Middle and Lower Class.

There are strata within each Class as well.

So :

Lower Working Class
Middle Working Class
Upper Working Class

Lower Middle Class
Middle Middle Class
Upper Middle Class

Lower Upper Class
Middle Upper Class
Upper Upper Class

HTH

How do you apply these?

I suspect I am Upper Upper Class as I live in Swindon and have a title (Mr).

bogeyman
21st April 2008, 16:35
The article is rubbish.

It assumes that one equates class to income.

This is a fundamental mistake that an aspirational rag like the ToryGraph is bound to make.

'Class' is about breeding, manners, taste, honour and decency.

The Working Class have some honour, much decency, no breeding, little taste and a modicum of manners.

The Middle Classes have little breeding, an unnecessary burden of manners, little honour, impeccable taste, and generally have only a shred of decency.

The Upper Classes have no manners, no taste, little decency, lots of 'breeding', and often much honour.

HairyArsedBloke
21st April 2008, 16:36
I’m lower than lower working class and proud of it.

Bagpuss
21st April 2008, 16:36
People obsessed with class usually don't have any

can somone born into a poor background change class?

Lucy
21st April 2008, 16:38
People obsessed with class usually don't have any

Were your ears burning baggy?

Bagpuss
21st April 2008, 16:46
The article is rubbish.

It assumes that one equates class to income.

This is a fundamental mistake that an aspirational rag like the ToryGraph is bound to make.



People have always changed class, sometimes within one generation e.g. during the plagues that beset Britain social mobility from Surf to Lord of the Manor was common. Breeding? nah, more opportunity and mimicry I would say

DimPrawn
21st April 2008, 16:49
People obsessed with class usually don't have any

can somone born into a poor background change class?

If Kevin Smith wins the lottery and changes his name to Charles Forbes-Harrington, moves from Peckham to an country estate in the Cotswolds, and has elecution lessons and takes up shooting and polo, then yes. Maybe.

bogeyman
21st April 2008, 17:23
If Kevin Smith wins the lottery and changes his name to Charles Forbes-Harrington, moves from Peckham to an country estate in the Cotswolds, and has elecution lessons and takes up shooting and polo, then yes. Maybe.

But 'Charles Forbes-Harrington' would still lust after the biggest possible plasma TV, a thing that any real gentleman would abhor.

BrilloPad
21st April 2008, 17:26
The article is rubbish.

It assumes that one equates class to income.

This is a fundamental mistake that an aspirational rag like the ToryGraph is bound to make.

'Class' is about breeding, manners, taste, honour and decency.

The Working Class have some honour, much decency, no breeding, little taste and a modicum of manners.

The Middle Classes have little breeding, an unnecessary burden of manners, little honour, impeccable taste, and generally have only a shred of decency.

The Upper Classes have no manners, no taste, little decency, lots of 'breeding', and often much honour.


:eek:

I prefer the income measure - made me middle class. BY your definition I am lower class.

I must be less well mannered...

bogeyman
21st April 2008, 17:49
:eek:

I prefer the income measure - made me middle class.

No.

It makes you 'Middle Income'.

Bagpuss
21st April 2008, 17:59
Scenario 1
2 brothers born into a middle class family, ones becomes a doctor the other a car mechanic. Are they both now a different class?

Scenario 2
A child born into a working class family is adopted by an upper class family and is subject to all advantages that affords him, top public school etc. Is he upper class? because he has inferior breeding he must still be working class right?

bogeyman
21st April 2008, 18:02
2 brothers born into a middle class family, ones becomes a doctor the other a car mechanic. Are they both now a different class?

The doctor stays in the 'middle class' bracket but the mechanic descends into the 'working class' demograph (unless he writes poetry).

Lucy
21st April 2008, 18:03
2 brothers born into a middle class family, ones becomes a doctor the other a car mechanic. Are they both now a different class?

It has nothing to do with occupation.

Two girls I went to school with are both titled and one is a journo and the other an actor.

Still titled, still upper-class, nomatter what they do.

Bagpuss
21st April 2008, 18:04
Scenario 2
A child born into a working class family is adopted by an upper class family and is subject to all advantages that affords him, top public school etc, he will inherit the family title. Is he upper class? because he has inferior breeding he must still be working class right?

bogeyman
21st April 2008, 18:05
It has nothing to do with occupation.

Two girls I went to school with are both titled and one is a journo and the other an actor.

Still titled, still upper-class, nomatter what they do.

Agreed. If one is upper class, or working class, one always remains so, irrespective or career choice or income.

The middle classes offer far more mobility - up and down.

Lucy
21st April 2008, 18:06
Scenario 2
A child born into a working class family is adopted by an upper class family and is subject to all advantages that affords him, top public school etc, he will inherit the family title. Is he upper class? because he has inferior breeding he must still be working class right?

Does this apply to you?

bogeyman
21st April 2008, 18:07
Scenario 2
A child born into a working class family is adopted by an upper class family and is subject to all advantages that affords him, top public school etc, he will inherit the family title. Is he upper class? because he has inferior breeding he must still be working class right?

Not at all. Breeding is the least important attribute.

The child will be a thoroughgoing member of the toffs, although he or she might have a slightly brutish appearance.

DimPrawn
21st April 2008, 18:10
£995 and I can become landed gentry.

http://www.elitetitles.co.uk/seated/index.html

Lord and Lady Prawn of Swindon.

bogeyman
21st April 2008, 18:13
Lord and Lady Prawn of Swindon.

I believe I went to one of their dinner parties once.

Their country seat charmingly overlooks the Honda factory.

Platypus
21st April 2008, 19:00
can somone born into a poor background change class?

No.

IR35 Avoider
21st April 2008, 21:16
can somone born into a poor background change class?

Yes.

According to something I saw or read that I've mentioned here before, "class" has been around as a concept only since the middle of the 19th century. It replaced "rank", which was unchangeable.

Gonzo
21st April 2008, 21:44
AFAIK the Upper/Middle/Lower classification system was considered redundant at the end of the 1980s, when the A/B/C1/C2/D/E system was preferred.

I think things have moved on since then, but I am by no means an expert*










* by which I mean that I have done no CPD on the subject since University. :rolleyes:

expat
22nd April 2008, 07:31
Agreed. If one is upper class, or working class, one always remains so, irrespective or career choice or income.

The middle classes offer far more mobility - up and down.Ref your excellent original summary: the attributes of the upper class are less likely to change with circumstances than those of the middle class.

expat
22nd April 2008, 07:33
Yes.

According to something I saw or read that I've mentioned here before, "class" has been around as a concept only since the middle of the 19th century. It replaced "rank", which was unchangeable.That would make sense. Without the middle class, the class system with some mobility degenerates into a rank system with no mobility.

Pondlife
22nd April 2008, 08:17
If you ever wonder what class you are, you're middle. The ones either side don't give a damn.

HTH