Xenophobic - South Africa?

[Churchill]

Surely not...

The xenophobic attacks began a week ago in the township of Alexandra, north of Johannesburg, before spreading to the city centre and across the Gauteng region.

President Thabo Mbeki said he would set up a panel of experts to investigate the violence.

The leader of the governing African National Congress, Jacob Zuma, has also condemned the attacks.

"We cannot allow South Africa to be famous for xenophobia," he told a conference in Pretoria.

Linky t'BBC...

And so the bubble bursts...

[BrilloPad]

Apartheid sanctions can be misunderstood - In the 1970s a lady went into a greengrocer asking for oranges. She asked where they came from - reply was Soth Africa. She said she did not want them and turned round to walk out - greengrocer shouted "I dont blame you luv - all those nasty black hands all over them"

[sunnysan]

South Africa

What is happening is terrible.

There are millions of foreign nationals from the rest of Africa living in South Africa.

People have created lives for themselves and have families there. It is a very popular misconception that immigrants are responsible for the spiraling crime figures.

I recently went back to South Africa for a holiday and in all the big cities you can feel the anger in the air, there are loads of poor unemployed people and African immigrants in the country are a very vunerable scapegoat.

Although a difficult task, the ANC has failed on many aspects of its manifesto, most importantly reducing poverty and creating jobs and they are reaping the rewards of that.

The reality of the situation is that many black people in SA are worse off now than they where during apartheid. I am not justifying apartheid, but that is the reality hat many poor black in SA are coming to terms with.

The inner cabal of minsiters and affluent blacks have cosied up the big business and have created a proportionately tiny and incredibly rich black elite and the distribution of wealth is every bit as lopsided as it was during apartheid.

Whether is be foreigners, the white farmers(Also getting pummelled), the urban white minority(Next of the list), thats not the problem.

The government promised houses, jobs and prosperity and they have not delivered, and South Africa despite its increased prosperity will pay dearly for it.

I am really happy I live here now and I am a naturalised UK citizen, but I do really feel sad when I see this kind of stuff happening. South Africa has the potential to be a very great nation or just another failed African state.

I still think despite everything it could still be the former.

[oracleslave]

What is happening is terrible.

There are millions of foreign nationals from the rest of Africa living in South Africa.

What you should have stated is that there are millions of foreign nationals from the rest of Africa living in South Africa ILLEGALLY!

It is a very popular misconception that immigrants are responsible for the spiraling crime figures.

I agree that it is largely a false perception. Doesn't mean I don't wonder how the millions of illegals live day to day.

Although a difficult task, the ANC has failed on many aspects of its manifesto, most importantly reducing poverty and creating jobs and they are reaping the rewards of that.

I disagree. The ANC has been successful in creating jobs. There is now a growing black middle class where before there was a gaping void. SA is in fact one of the few countries where government intervention in the free market through policies such as affirmative action have been shown to work. The stats back this up.

Some examples:

1980s – 1% growth
Early 1990s – SA was technically bankrupt – defined as when national debt is more than 3% of GDP – in 1994, it was 9%.
During the Mandela years, had 2% economic growth
For the last seven years – 5%!
Next year – 4% - despite world wide recession, oil prices, electricity crisis.
JSE – 2001 – 8000 points and everyone was pleased; 2007 – 30 000 points (although it has lost some growth now)
Platinum – up R5000/ounce since January
Here's a thought – with cuts of electricity, less platinum comes out of ground but what's left is not going anywhere and while it stays in the ground, the price goes up!

the distribution of wealth is every bit as lopsided as it was during apartheid.

I don't believe that at all.

[Churchill]

What you should have stated is that there are millions of foreign nationals from the rest of Africa living in South Africa ILLEGALLY!

Well, that's alright then.

I really hope you're not condoning what is happening in SA currently.

How about if we start beating illegal immigrants in the UK?

[oracleslave]

Well, that's alright then.

I really hope you're not condoning what is happening in SA currently.

How about if we start beating illegal immigrants in the UK?

Not condoning anything. Violence never really should be and am saddened it has been allowed to descend to that level. I just felt it was a distinction worth making.

[sunnysan]

South Africa

OS

If someone is an illegal immigrant in a country, does that give the locals the right to cremate the poor sods(Unfortunately they where not dead yet) in the street?

If that was the case London would look like Dorset during foot and mouth.

Illegall migrants generally work as far as I know albeit illegally, they sell fruit, curios etc etc and generally keep out of trouble owing to the repurcaussions if caught in SA as an illegal alien (Not sure if you remeber Lindela(Read SA's Sangatte) where the camp guards where setting dogs on the inmates)

The ANC has been successfull to a degree in creating jobs, and yes there is an emerging black middle class.

However , it may be an impossible task but they have not addressed the level of poverty in the majority of the population and this economic prosperity you tout has not really filtered down to the alleviate the deep sense of dissatisfaction that exists in the core electorate. The economy has grown in spite of the ANC not becuase of them

Illegal immigrants are a vunerable scapegoat to vent their frustrations on.

So yes, you have a bigger middle class but a bigger population to. This growing black middle class conincides with a huge loss of skills for the former white middle class as they leave South Africa in droves, taking with them their skills and expertise.

The corruption and ineffectiveness of the ANC is every bit as bad as the apartheid regime

Just because more of the beneficiaries of South Africas wealth are now black does not mean that the wealth is any more fairly distributed.

OMG!!! I used the word "fair". Someone electrocute me now !!

[oracleslave]

OS

If someone is an illegal immigrant in a country, does that give the locals the right to cremate the poor sods(Unfortunately they where not dead yet) in the street?

If that was the case London would look like Dorset during foot and mouth.

I am not sure where you (or Churchill) got the idea that I was condoning any violence. That is certainly not the case and the actions are frankly inexcusable. Where I think there should be no real suprise is that it has occurred frequently around the world and not just in SA i.e. When the exportation of a free market democracy is pushed in the developing world it often creates tendency of some minorities to benefit disproportionately, this in turn inflames ethnic hatred among the ethnicities who make up those countries' populations. Indonesia, Russia, Sierra Leone, Bolivia and in the Middle East have all experienced this and I don't see SA as any different.

Illegall migrants generally work as far as I know albeit illegally, they sell fruit, curios etc etc and generally keep out of trouble owing to the repurcaussions if caught in SA as an illegal alien (Not sure if you remeber Lindela(Read SA's Sangatte) where the camp guards where setting dogs on the inmates)

Big generalisation but I would venture that it's correct on the whole. However given the 'vibe' that you described earlier it only takes a few bad eggs to spark off a situation.

Illegal immigrants are a vunerable scapegoat to vent their frustrations on.

Agree

So yes, you have a bigger middle class but a bigger population to. This growing black middle class conincides with a huge loss of skills for the former white middle class as they leave South Africa in droves, taking with them their skills and expertise.

Does this not make some of the growth figures etc even more impressive?

The corruption and ineffectiveness of the ANC is every bit as bad as the apartheid regime

I don't know from what figures/stats base you can make that statement. Conversely I don't have any to counter that argument. I do think there is however a far greater transparency now that never existed previously so any corruption is far more likely to come to the fore nowadays.
Just because more of the beneficiaries of South Africas wealth are now black does not mean that the wealth is any more fairly distributed.

OMG!!! I used the word "fair". Someone electrocute me now !!

I prefer employing a firing squad if you still up for it

[Troll]

So... who's planning to visit for the 2010 Football World Cup?

[oracleslave]

So... who's planning to visit for the 2010 Football World Cup?

Not me. Are you?