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BamBam
24th September 2008, 04:38
A while back on another contract, I remember a couple of fellow contractors refusing to accept being put on to electronic timesheets by their agency, citing something to do with causing them IR35 headaches.

Does anyone know *why* electronic timesheets would affect them? And would *you* accept online timesheets?

BamBam
25th September 2008, 22:46
Does no one have ANY comments?

pisces
26th September 2008, 00:00
I don't let agencies tell me how to run my accounts regardless of IR35.

HTDH.

bodnobal
26th September 2008, 00:09
Name and shame, you know the rules

BamBam
26th September 2008, 03:46
Name and shame, you know the rules

The agency that tried to change the deal with their contractors to use online timesheets was Spring. I was with Progressive at the time, and was already using online timesheets, and so had to continue like that. However, on the last renewal, I wouldn't sign with them (they changed their contracts, and I found them very suspect with regards to IR35) so ended up signing directly with the client with the agency's agreement.

So you guys agree that electronic timesheets are a no-no for IR35 reasons?

Jubber
26th September 2008, 06:37
A while back on another contract, I remember a couple of fellow contractors refusing to accept being put on to electronic timesheets by their agency, citing something to do with causing them IR35 headaches.

Does anyone know *why* electronic timesheets would affect them? And would *you* accept online timesheets?

Close call this one. I do fill them in as my last client insisted that they were. They use a system to allocate resource time to projects and all Permy, Consultants, Contractors and Temps have to fill them in.

What I find out there is that most contractors are NOT IR35 savvy. If I kick up too much over IR35, especially before I get a gig, there will be 5 other blokes, who are ignorant about IR35, or using umbrallas, who will be offered the gig instead. IMHO opinion as the job market gets worse, as it surely will, I will have to keep my head down and get on with it (within reason) and just do what I can.

I could be the most IR35 ranting contractor in the world, but I'll probably be a poor one, as what I do isn't that special and different.

Lockhouse
26th September 2008, 07:24
Close call this one.....


Indeed. Duck and dive and make sure your insurance is up-to-date. Being realistic that's about all you can do at the moment.

Spacecadet
26th September 2008, 07:37
why should electronic timesheets be any different to paper timesheets?
Do they act as an indicator of greater control?
Are they simply an easier way of monitoring hours you can bill for and a sensible way to reduce overheads and paper usage?

d000hg
26th September 2008, 08:28
I'd view electronic timesheets as just a way of logging my time... I work on hourly rates so I give detailed breakdown of my time as part of my service, sent with my invoice. Of course, I'm not told how many hours to spend each day or when to spend them... I give this information as a courtesy.

Qdos Contractor
26th September 2008, 08:52
I wouldn't worry too much about it. In all the years I've dealt with IR35 enquiries, timesheets (in any form) have never been a major element of a case. Not worth burning any bridges over.

HairyArsedBloke
26th September 2008, 09:26
Not that I care anymore, but .....

An agency timesheet system is just a means of invoicing, so has no indication of control.

However, (the point of my post) should a contractor use the time recording system at a clientco? Not just clock in/out, but X hours on Project A, Y on Support B, etc. Would doing so indicate control? I believe that is hook, line and sinker.

BrilloPad
26th September 2008, 09:35
I use a clientco electronic timesheet - once approved they send money to my agency.

All contractors here HAVE to use it.

Another Dodgy Agent
26th September 2008, 10:19
I use a clientco electronic timesheet - once approved they send money to my agency.

All contractors here HAVE to use it.

A couple of our large household name clients using electronic systems, although we don't receive the money from the company (that still falls to credit control to chase up) but we do get approval from the hiring manager, so it speeds things up a bit for payment to contractor. All the contractor has to do is send us an invoice as normal as timesheets are electronic.

ratewhore
26th September 2008, 10:21
I wouldn't worry too much about it. In all the years I've dealt with IR35 enquiries, timesheets (in any form) have never been a major element of a case. Not worth burning any bridges over.

Wise words. If you have to you have to. As for the password thread, I favour the light touch approach. Currently I email my days to an authoriser at the end of the month and he replies with an authorisation email. Then I forward that to the pimp with my invoice.

Suits me...

blacjac
26th September 2008, 10:51
Not that I care anymore, but .....

An agency timesheet system is just a means of invoicing, so has no indication of control.

However, (the point of my post) should a contractor use the time recording system at a clientco? Not just clock in/out, but X hours on Project A, Y on Support B, etc. Would doing so indicate control? I believe that is hook, line and sinker.

I use client co's timesheet, because clientco then uses it to bill their clients.

has no bearing at all on what I do or when I do it, it's just a means of telling my client what I have done and when I did it.

HairyArsedBloke
26th September 2008, 12:06
I use client co's timesheet, because clientco then uses it to bill their clients.

has no bearing at all on what I do or when I do it, it's just a means of telling my client what I have done and when I did it.

Ah, I see. It's after the fact so it is not direction. Thank's for clearing that up in my mind.

I am SOOOOOOOOOO glad that I don't have to worry about these things anymore.

bogeyman
26th September 2008, 12:13
Ah, I see. It's after the fact so it is not direction. Thank's for clearing that up in my mind.

I am SOOOOOOOOOO glad that I don't have to worry about these things anymore.

Spot on HAB!

Timesheets! Ha ha ha! :rollin:

trsisko
26th September 2008, 12:15
what about self-billing invoices is that bad?

Not So Wise
26th September 2008, 12:49
No difference between paper and electronic version

Secondly, timesheets are no an indicator of "control" but rather a case of just letting the client know after the fact what he will be billed for

Only thing I would say to watch out for is the text on timesheets, remember a few years a ago client wanted us contractors to use their new permie timesheet system, we had no real issue with that until we noticed all the fields were labelled "Employee" - "Employer" and such. But quick chat soon sorted that and we got a new "contractor timesheet" form done

Fred Bloggs
26th September 2008, 12:51
what about self-billing invoices is that bad?
Irrelevant. Raise the invoice anyway and file it for your accounts.