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HairyArsedBloke
6th November 2008, 18:36
Jacqui Smith says public demand means people will be able to pre-register for an ID card within the next few months.

The cards will be available for all from 2012 but she said: "I regularly have people coming up to me and saying they don't want to wait that long."

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7712275.stm)

:laugh:freaky::suicide:

Cyberman
6th November 2008, 18:40
Yet another proven liar in the Labour party. :laugh

StuntManMike
6th November 2008, 18:45
Yeah Right! Never, Never, Never want one of these....

BrilloPad
6th November 2008, 18:47
I want one that says Gordon Brown. Then I am going to run the country properly......

Beefy198
6th November 2008, 19:09
I've only ever met one person that was in favour of ID cards. He even thought they would have prevented the July bombings :confused::confused:

HairyArsedBloke
6th November 2008, 19:14
Anyone who wants ID cards generally want them for everyone else, not themselves. It's like studies that find that motorists are in favor of public transport. Not that they would use it, but because it would clear the roads of other drivers making it easier for them to get about.

StuntManMike
6th November 2008, 19:23
Anyone who wants ID cards generally want them for everyone else, not themselves. It's like studies that find that motorists are in favor of public transport. Not that they would use it, but because it would clear the roads of other drivers making it easier for them to get about.

+1 MASSIVE!!

TykeMerc
6th November 2008, 19:27
I don't believe that there's a credible benefits case for ID cards, the only people who I suspect "can't wait for ID cards" are those who've accepted the propaganda.

They will be faked in short order and represent a nasty database good only for lifting someones ID when their pocket is picked and for a Big Brother state expansion.

EternalOptimist
6th November 2008, 19:29
A party apparatchik arrives in a town in Russia

Hey peasant, we are bringing you socialism
What is Socialism ?
Well we will find someone who has two cows, take one off him, and give it to a farmer who hasn't any cows
Da da I agree, this is good

Then we find someone who has two tractors, take one off him, and give it to a farmer who hasn't any tractors
Da da I agree, this is good

Then we find someone who has two chickens, take one off him, and give it to a farmer who hasn't any chickens
Njet, Njet - this is very bad

why is this particular one so bad ?

Because I have two chickens



:rolleyes:

Peoplesoft bloke
6th November 2008, 19:40
incognito and dim prawn on here were in favour of id cards iirc. I never heard a cogent argument indicating any real benefits. Often people mention other countries having them, but other countries haven't solved their crime and illegal immigration issues by having id cards so what are they really for?

TheBigYinJames
6th November 2008, 19:57
incognito and dim prawn on here were in favour of id cards iirc. I never heard a cogent argument indicating any real benefits. Often people mention other countries having them, but other countries haven't solved their crime and illegal immigration issues by having id cards so what are they really for?

Keeping track of you and your nefarious ways.

OwlHoot
6th November 2008, 20:00
If anyone is interested, there's a Home Office paper on ID cards here (http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/National_Identity_Scheme_Options_Analysis_Outcome_ %28pristine%29) on Wikileaks.

JamieMoles
6th November 2008, 20:24
Identity cards are stupid because in order to get one you have to prove your identity. If I can do that why would I need the card?

:ohwell

TimberWolf
7th November 2008, 09:32
The Daily Mash has a fairly amusing (5 out of10) take on this:

PUBLIC CAN'T WAIT TO BE TRUNCHEONED ACROSS THE JAW, SAYS SMITH (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/public-can%27t-wait-to-be-truncheoned-across-the-jaw%2c-says-smith-200811071383/)

MOST British people are looking forward to having a policeman stand on their windpipe, the home secretary said yesterday....

EternalOptimist
7th November 2008, 09:35
The Daily Mash has a fairly amusing (5 out of10) take on this:

PUBLIC CAN'T WAIT TO BE TRUNCHEONED ACROSS THE JAW, SAYS SMITH (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/public-can%27t-wait-to-be-truncheoned-across-the-jaw%2c-says-smith-200811071383/)

heh heh

what a git that woman is


:rolleyes:

cailin maith
7th November 2008, 09:37
Honestly, I can't see the problem with them. If it meant I din't havr to carry a passport and a driving licence around with me, you know just had one card for everything?

I'm sure that you lot have perfectly good reasons for not wanting them but me, I don't see what the big deal is.

Doggy Styles
7th November 2008, 09:39
The Daily Mash has a fairly amusing (5 out of10) take on this:

PUBLIC CAN'T WAIT TO BE TRUNCHEONED ACROSS THE JAW, SAYS SMITH (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/public-can%27t-wait-to-be-truncheoned-across-the-jaw%2c-says-smith-200811071383/)I give that 8 out of 10.

Doggy Styles
7th November 2008, 09:40
Honestly, I can't see the problem with them. If it meant I din't havr to carry a passport and a driving licence around with me, you know just had one card for everything?

I'm sure that you lot have perfectly good reasons for not wanting them but me, I don't see what the big deal is.Bless

SantaClaus
7th November 2008, 09:40
That Jacqui Smith is so dangerous.
She is single-handedly turning this country into a police state!

ace00
7th November 2008, 09:42
That Jacqui Smith is so dangerous.
She is single-handedly turning this country into a police state!

WHS + insane.

foritisme
7th November 2008, 09:42
Honestly, I can't see the problem with them. If it meant I din't havr to carry a passport and a driving licence around with me, you know just had one card for everything?

I'm sure that you lot have perfectly good reasons for not wanting them but me, I don't see what the big deal is.


Can't see them scrapping passports & driving licences !

cailin maith
7th November 2008, 09:43
Can't see them scrapping passports & driving licences !

Well then, whats the point in us having carry another card?

EternalOptimist
7th November 2008, 09:43
Honestly, I can't see the problem with them. If it meant I din't havr to carry a passport and a driving licence around with me, you know just had one card for everything?

I'm sure that you lot have perfectly good reasons for not wanting them but me, I don't see what the big deal is.

having and carrying a passport is voluntary. If you were told you HAVE to buy one and carry it would you feel the same ?



:rolleyes:

foritisme
7th November 2008, 09:44
Well then, whats the point in us having carry another card?

That's what most of us are trying to figure out :rolleyes:

SantaClaus
7th November 2008, 09:44
Honestly, I can't see the problem with them. If it meant I din't havr to carry a passport and a driving licence around with me, you know just had one card for everything?

I'm sure that you lot have perfectly good reasons for not wanting them but me, I don't see what the big deal is.

The big deal is being stopped by a policeman at every corner demanding to see your ID card. If you dont produce it, you are carted off to the police station and detained for 42 days under the terrorism act.

Can't happen? Every violation of human rights that the govt. has introduced would have been thought far-fetched in the past.

cailin maith
7th November 2008, 09:46
having and carrying a passport is voluntary. If you were told you HAVE to buy one and carry it would you feel the same ?



:rolleyes:

But I don't see it as voluntary. If I want to go anywhere I need it, don't I? Even being in this country I needed it to get here.


That's what most of us are trying to figure out :rolleyes:

:o


The big deal is being stopped by a policeman at every corner demanding to see your ID card. If you dont produce it, you are carted off to the police station and detained for 42 days under the terrorism act.

Can't happen? Every violation of human rights that the govt. has introduced would have been thought far-fetched in the past.

Suppose...

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 09:50
But I don't see it as voluntary. If I want to go anywhere I need it, don't I? Even being in this country I needed it to get here.



A passport is voluntary - If you don't want to go abroad then you don't need a passport. A driving license is voluntary. If you don't/can't drive a car then you don't need one. An ID card is not voluntary and will cost a whole lot more than the other forms of ID that are available.

I suspect that the only people actually looking forward to their introduction are those waiting to forge them.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 09:50
To be honest most of the arguments against it are pretty half baked.

'they are forcing me to carry an ID card' and that kind of crap.

'first it will be ID cards and then the police will have the right to rape your daughters!!'

SantaClaus
7th November 2008, 09:51
Suppose...

Now lets say you are arrested for not producing your ID card. Your DNA sample will be taken as is the case when you are in contact with the police now.

Then at a later date, your DNA is shared with life insurance companies wishing to know whether you are a bad candidate for insurance.

Cant happen? Then why do local councils think they can misuse the anti terrorism laws to spy on citizens to check they are disposing of our rubbish correctly.

The whole thing is downright dangerous.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 09:52
Now lets say you are arrested for not producing your ID card. Your DNA sample will be taken as is the case when you are in contact with the police now.

Then at a later date, your DNA is shared with life insurance companies wishing to know whether you are a bad candidate for insurance.

Cant happen? Then why do local councils think they can misuse the anti terrorism laws to spy on citizens to check they are disposing of our rubbish correctly.

The whole thing is downright dangerous.


Just as I was saying

HairyArsedBloke
7th November 2008, 09:58
Can't happen? Every violation of human rights that the govt. has introduced would have been thought far-fetched in the past.

Every 'secruity' measure that nuLieBore has introduced has been abused already.

The ID cards are not about convience of not having to carry muliple other forms of ID, that is just spin, it is about monitoring and control of anyone who could be a threat to the state - that means YOU.

This obsession with databases for this, that and the other will bring this country to it knees as nothing will be able to get done. "Sorry Mr HAB, we are turning down your application for a mortage because background checks say that you are too much risk. You could lose your job because of potential poor attendance. That is the prediction that has been made from school records that show you once missed a gym class 25 years ago". Except all would be said would be, "Computer says no", without the full explination.

TimberWolf
7th November 2008, 10:01
The plan now is that retailers and the Post Office can enrol you (scan your biometric data). Muurahahhahah. And the cost may rise to £60.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:01
Nobody is actually forcing you to have one, that is myth number one.

SantaClaus
7th November 2008, 10:04
Just as I was saying

Good luck Minestrone. If you are the last person to leave the country, please turn out the lights!

SantaClaus
7th November 2008, 10:05
Nobody is actually forcing you to have one, that is myth number one.

Not yet! every govt. Infringement of our civil liberties starts off as a "pilot scheme" or "temporary legislation".

Of course, even if nobody applies for said cards, we will be told that the scheme was a "success" and will be rolled out for compulsory registration.

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 10:07
Nobody is actually forcing you to have one, that is myth number one.

Not at the moment - but just wait. You say that 'most of the arguments against it are pretty half baked'. Can you actually give any arguments for it?

Expensive to implement.
Expensive to administer.
Duplication of existing ID - not needed.
Will not protect anybody from terrorism.
Will be open to fraud and as a result identity theft.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 10:07
Nobody is actually forcing you to have one, that is myth number one.

Thinking that you will not eventually be forced to have one is so stupid it is beyond belief.

Moderators: I'm all in favour of a reasoned discussion, but complete imbeciles should not be allowed to post here.

HairyArsedBloke
7th November 2008, 10:08
To be honest most of the arguments against it are pretty half baked.

'they are forcing me to carry an ID card' and that kind of crap.

'first it will be ID cards and then the police will have the right to rape your daughters!!'

You are Derek Draper and I claim my get out of Belmarsh free card.

EternalOptimist
7th November 2008, 10:10
Nobody is actually forcing you to have one, that is myth number one.

The pilot scheme at Manchester airport introduces compulsory ID cards for airside workers.

what part of compulsory are you having trouble with ?




:rolleyes:

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:12
Good luck Minestrone. If you are the last person to leave the country, please turn out the lights!

Are you Paul Daniels?

SantaClaus
7th November 2008, 10:13
Thinking that you will not eventually be forced to have one is so stupid it is beyond belief.

Moderators: I'm all in favour of a reasoned discussion, but complete imbeciles should not be allowed to post here.

Ok, complete imbeciles should be allowed ID cards on the basis that we need to track their every move :laugh

When they start putting satellite tracking devices in these things, maybe a govt. website could publish the locations of all imbeciles so we can avoid them. :happy

Imagine the scenario, you want a quiet pint in the pub, so you log on to New Liebour's ID card tracking service and check there are no imbeciles around.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:14
The pilot scheme at Manchester airport introduces compulsory ID cards for airside workers.

what part of compulsory are you having trouble with ?

:rolleyes:

I have worked in jobs where I have needed to be Security Cleared.

Nobody is forcing me to to be Security Cleared.

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:14
The article should read:

People "Can't wait to stab that cow Jacqui Smith in the face, and wouldn't mind having a go at that idiot Hazel Blears either"

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:15
I have worked in jobs where I have needed to be Security Cleared.

Nobody is forcing me to to be Security Cleared.

If you're so in favour of them, will you be getting one before the government forces you to?

EternalOptimist
7th November 2008, 10:16
I have worked in jobs where I have needed to be Security Cleared.

Nobody is forcing me to to be Security Cleared.

exactly.

you fail to see the irony of your own words:frown


:rolleyes:

ace00
7th November 2008, 10:17
Ok, complete imbeciles should be allowed ID cards on the basis that we need to track their every move :laugh

When they start putting satellite tracking devices in these things, maybe a govt. website could publish the locations of all imbeciles so we can avoid them. :happy

I'd vote for that! Integrate it into Google Earth and we're laughing. Could also track things like greatest concentration of imbeciles (probably that big building in London next to Big Ben), imbecile migration patterns, imbeciles by postcode so imbecile areas would see property values reduced even further leading to imbecile ghettoisation, etc. It's all good.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:18
If you're so in favour of them, will you be getting one before the government forces you to?

The goverment is not forcing you to have one. End of.

The Daily Mail type reaction to these things is laughable.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 10:19
I have worked in jobs where I have needed to be Security Cleared.

Nobody is forcing me to to be Security Cleared.

What about, as is the current case, that the government is creepily making all occupations 'cleared' in one way or another?

You'll sit at home and claim the social?

But you won't be able to do that as you'll need the card to claim...

Do you really not see it?

TimberWolf
7th November 2008, 10:21
Ok, complete imbeciles should be allowed ID cards on the basis that we need to track their every move :laugh

When they start putting satellite tracking devices in these things, maybe a govt. website could publish the locations of all imbeciles so we can avoid them. :happy

Imagine the scenario, you want a quiet pint in the pub, so you log on to New Liebour's ID card tracking service and check there are no imbeciles around.

You don't need a satellite, just a RFID chip in the cards. I think one country did this (USA?) on passports, and this meant that these people could be detected as Yanks by people with an interest and scanners. I don't know the whole sorry tale, but they may have dropped them, or supplied shields.

ratewhore
7th November 2008, 10:23
The article should read:

People "Can't wait to stab that cow Jacqui Smith in the face, and wouldn't mind having a go at that idiot Hazel Blears either"

:rollin:

Given that she can't walk down the high street without a stab vest and police protection, I doubt anyone has approached her to say this...

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:23
What about, as is the current case, that the government is creepily making all occupations 'cleared' in one way or another?

You'll sit at home and claim the social?

But you won't be able to do that as you'll need the card to claim...

Do you really not see it?

Yes, I do fail to see what imaginary delusions your mind is creating.

“Next they will be tatoing a barcode onto our arms, then we will all have to live in concentration camps IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?!?!?!”

Hysterical mince if you ask me.

ace00
7th November 2008, 10:26
I wonder if there'll be different colors of cards? Black for the Uber-class (Labor party, Russian Billionaires), Platinum for contributors to the party, Gold for high net worth citizens who vote correctly, Green for the regular plebs, Yellow for imbeciles, unemployed, those whose votes are not correct.

Bagpuss
7th November 2008, 10:26
So what's the general consensus on ID cards a good or bad thing?

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 10:27
You don't need a satellite, just a RFID chip in the cards. I think one country did this (USA?) on passports, and this meant that these people could be detected as Yanks by people with an interest and scanners. I don't know the whole sorry tale, but they may have dropped them, or supplied shields.

Yes, one variety of road side bomb in Iraq was triggered by the proximity of American passports, American vehicle tyres, and a few other bits and pieces the poor sods were carrying about that had embedded RFIDs.

OwlHoot
7th November 2008, 10:30
The goverment is not forcing you to have one. End of.

The Daily Mail type reaction to these things is laughable.

Not End of, but Start of.

I can't believe anyone in IT (supposedly) can be so utterly thick and naive.

Of course they'll start out optional, but as several people have pointed out once banks and companies start demanding to see them how will it be possible not to have one? Then, once practically everyone is forced in practice to have one, before you know it they'll be made compulsory.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:31
The US passports are shielded and can only be detected when they are opened.

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:32
The goverment is not forcing you to have one. End of.

Yet. Their stated aim is to make it compulsory one day. The question remains, will you get one when they become available?



The Daily Mail type reaction to these things is laughable.
Don't be a *****.

The only reason I would ever read the Daily Mail is to find out what my mother is thinking.

SantaClaus
7th November 2008, 10:32
Not End of, but Start of.

I can't believe anyone in IT (supposedly) can be so utterly thick and naive.

It's the dumbing down of our nation :frown

Teach the public not to think for themselves and feed them a diet of Big Brother and X Factor.

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:33
The US passports are shielded and can only be detected when they are opened.

Bollocks. A Dutch (IIRC) university have already published techniques on how to read the data stream from up to three metres away.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 10:36
The US passports are shielded and can only be detected when they are opened.

This is part and parcel of your woeful lack of understanding in this area. Because the passport is now shielded only makes it hard to read the RFID, the consequence is to make it easier to detect whether it is an american passport.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:39
Not End of, but Start of.

I can't believe anyone in IT (supposedly) can be so utterly thick and naive.

Of course they'll start out optional, but as several people have pointed out once banks and companies start demanding to see them how will it be possible not to have one? Then, once practically everyone is forced in practice to have one, before you know it they'll be made compulsory.

This is the ludicrous clap trap everyone spouts. Nobody can actually form a decent workable argument against the cards so the people who don’t want them start making up scenarios and try to use them in a debate. “yes it’s just the start next you will have to RFID your turds” type pish.

It is the ramblings of people who if it was 80 years ago would be saying that mind control suggestion were being transmitted in TV signals.

I’m more worried that we live in a country full of sensationalist gaylords than ID cards.

ace00
7th November 2008, 10:41
.

Are you a mentalist?

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:43
Yet. Their stated aim is to make it compulsory one day. The question remains, will you get one when they become available?


Where?

I would like to know where that is stated.

Again you have made up a fact then tried to extrapolate it into some scenario to try and make a point from it. The fact remains you are talking mince.

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 10:43
I have worked in jobs where I have needed to be Security Cleared.

Nobody is forcing me to to be Security Cleared.

Are you for real?

To work in a security cleared role it is compulsory to be security cleared. Try getting the role without getting cleared. So by the same token, those working at Manchester Airport MUST have these voluntary cards to continue doing their jobs. For them it IS compulsory or they have to find another job.

Next it will be rolled out to everybody working at all airports and those who supply all our airports. It will creep out to more and more people until a point is reached where x% already have the card and they will make it compulsory for all.

expat
7th November 2008, 10:44
Honestly, I can't see the problem with them. If it meant I din't havr to carry a passport and a driving licence around with me, you know just had one card for everything?

I'm sure that you lot have perfectly good reasons for not wanting them but me, I don't see what the big deal is.This is the country that finally replaced the paper driving licence with a card, but added a new paper part that you also need to carry around.

Bagpuss
7th November 2008, 10:45
I've still got my old paper one

EternalOptimist
7th November 2008, 10:45
Where?

I would like to know where that is stated.

Again you have made up a fact then tried to extrapolate it into some scenario to try and make a point from it. The fact remains you are talking mince.

Tony Blair and Blunkett clearly stated that the intention was to make them compulsory.

The pilot at Manchester IS compulsory


:rolleyes:

Doggy Styles
7th November 2008, 10:45
Let's have a look at what the government and the naive wants ID cards for, eh? Sorry, can't remember where I got the bones of this from.

Preventing terrorism

The best that an ID Card can possibly do is to prove who someone is. It can never prove their intent. If I wake up tomorrow and decide to plant a bomb then no ID Card will stop me.

Preventing identity theft

Only the technically naive can believe that it will be "impossible" to fake ID Cards, even with biometrics. Cards will be faked, the system will be compromised. ID Cards will be a skeleton key to your identity. A fraudster can clone an identity card with his biometrics and your identity.

Preventing benefit fraud

Most benefit fraud comes from people claiming benefit whilst actually working or otherwise lying about their circumstances. Identity Cards will do nothing to prevent this.

Preventing illegal immigration

ID cards will not deter illegal immigrants, they will still come. Nor will ID Cards allow illegal immigrants to be deported more easily. By definition people in the country illegally will not apply for the cards and will avoid places where these cards need to be shown. Or they will obtain cloned cards. If this makes things difficult then many illegal immigrants will have no choice but to turn to crime to survive, raising the crime rate.

Preventing electoral fraud

The vast majority of electoral fraud is through postal voting, which would clearly have nothing to do with ID cards.

Bringing us into line with the rest of Europe

What for? The Spanish compulsory Identity Card system did nothing to prevent the Madrid massacre.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 10:45
“yes it’s just the start next you will have to RFID your turds” type pish.

Do you know the septics have turned the RFID activated IED idea around and are having great success in taking out bad guys in Afghanistan with just that very thing: RFIDs in the baddys turds. Leaves a trail better than a mobile phone. Bad guys eat the RFIDs without realising, and then nature does the rest.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:46
Are you for real?

To work in a security cleared role it is compulsory to be security cleared. Try getting the role without getting cleared. So by the same token, those working at Manchester Airport MUST have these voluntary cards to continue doing their jobs. For them it IS compulsory or they have to find another job.

Next it will be rolled out to everybody working at all airports and those who supply all our airports. It will creep out to more and more people until a point is reached where x% already have the card and they will make it compulsory for all.


You have to get a driving licence to drive a car but they are not compulsory.

Again a "i'm making up something that will never happen" argument

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:47
Tony Blair and Blunkett clearly stated that the intention was to make them compulsory.

The pilot at Manchester IS compulsory


:rolleyes:

Where? if you are so sure then surely you will find it for me

expat
7th November 2008, 10:48
Where?

I would like to know where that is stated.

Again you have made up a fact then tried to extrapolate it into some scenario to try and make a point from it. The fact remains you are talking mince.Look at the Wikileak (http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/National_Identity_Scheme_Options_Analysis_Outcome_ %28pristine%29)document linked to earlier. The idea is to start with "designation" which essebtially means that if you want something els (e.g. you are a young person appying for their first driving licence) then you have to get an ID card in order to do it. Sure, you could just not get a driving licence instead. Similarly for passport.

Interesting to note that one of their suggestions is to requie an ID card for access to public services, but this is dismissed on the grounds that it would require too much "joined up services" across Government departments to be practicable :rollin:

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:49
Where?

I would like to know where that is stated.

Again you have made up a fact then tried to extrapolate it into some scenario to try and make a point from it. The fact remains you are talking mince.

You still haven't answered the question. Are you Hazel Blears?

Will you get an ID card when they become available?

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 10:50
THis was reported on Thursday, 30 March 2006


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4860642.stm

ID cards 'to be made compulsory'

ID cards may become compulsory
Identity cards will be made compulsory if Labour wins the next election, Home Secretary Charles Clarke has said.
Under the current scheme all passport applicants from 2008 will have to get an ID card - although there will be a brief opt-out period until 2010.

But Mr Clarke said he plans legislation after the next election to make it compulsory for everyone to get a card, whether or not they have a passport.

The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats both oppose ID cards.

But Mr Clarke said he did not think the opposition would be able to stop the scheme because by 2010 a "large number of people... should either have cards or hope to have cards".

"I would be very surprised if the next Conservative manifesto said 'stop the scheme'. It would be very difficult to do," he said.

'Foolish opt-out'

Between 2008 and summer 2010 people applying for a passport will be able to opt-out of having an identity card, but not from having their details entered on the ID card database. Under a Conservative government, the scheme would be scrapped and the savings put to other uses

David Davis, shadow home secretary


Q&A: ID cards

And although Mr Clarke stressed prices had yet to be worked out there will be no discount for those who opt out.

He said the opt-out had been introduced to allay fears expressed in the House of Lords that cards would be "foisted" on people.

But he added: "I don't think there is any benefit in opting out at all. Anyone who opts out in my opinion is foolish."

He declined to give further details of the costs, but ministers have already said the combined cost of a passport and ID card will be £93.

Clarke 'ruse'

Conservative shadow home secretary David Davis said: "When people are told they will have to pay for an ID card whether or not they opt to have one, this will make them even more resentful of this system.

"Under a Conservative government, the scheme would be scrapped and the savings put to other uses - including strengthening our security."

But the Lib Dems accused the Conservatives of being duped by Labour into backing the opt-out plan in a crunch Commons vote on Wednesday.

Home affairs spokesman Nick Clegg said: "Within hours of parading their so-called compromise the Home Office is already making it clear that it was little more than a tactical manoeuvre to ram this legislation through Parliament without any substantive change to the Draconian reach and financial costs of the ID database.

"It begs the question whether the Conservatives really knew what they were doing when they fell into line with Charles Clarke's ruse."

'Potential benefits'

Mr Clarke said he believed there was an "appetite" among the public for ID cards, which he said would bring "massive benefits" for banks, law enforcement agencies and "the individual citizen".

The scheme would "enable every citizen in this country, over time, to protect their identity from people who seek to defraud," he added.

Banks will be able to check people are who they say they are on the government's national identity database.

The "potential benefits to the private sector" of ID cards added up to £425m a year, said Mr Clarke.

The Department of Work and Pensions would also be able to use the register to check the identity of benefit claimants and combat fraud.

'Background checks'

The government is launching a new Identity and Passport Service on 1 April, incorporating the existing UK Passport Service, to administer the scheme.

Interviews will begin "later this year" for passport applicants.

People applying for passports will have to visit their local passport office where they will be interviewed, fingerprinted and have "background checks" carried out on them.

Their details will be entered on to the database and they will be issued with an identity card, although they will not be forced by law to carry it.

About 80% of the UK population has a passport and all will have to be renewed within the next 10 years, at an initial rate of about 7 million people a year, a Home Office spokesman said.

Mr Clarke was not willing to set a date for ID cards becoming compulsory, saying it would depend on the rate at which passports were renewed, he told reporters in a briefing at the Home Office as the current plans became law.

Doggy Styles
7th November 2008, 10:51
There are plenty of arguments against an ID card system:

Abuse of privacy
The government, the credit card company, your doctor, etc, all hold different pieces of information about you. In general they know only what they need to know in order to provide a service. This is a fundamental concept of data protection (Data Protection Act 1984). The introduction of a universal card - or even simply the National Identity Register - opens up the prospect of all this information - your "data shadow" - being combined and made available at the push of a button.

Functionality creep
Initially the Identity Card database will be used to register identity and - possibly - employment status. Once the incredibly expensive infrastructure is in place, future governments will see it as "common sense" and a "prudent use of public funds" to extend the functionality, perhaps to use any credit card, make any journey, buy any item. Your whole personal history would be tracked.

Intent
ID Cards provide the capability for massive abuse, regardless of current intent. Whatever assurances we are given now, sooner or later the powers will be abused. For a recent example, see the abuses of the Terrorism Act.

Problems with the ID card system
The database required to support compulsory National Identity Cards will be massive, probably the biggest IT project ever undertaken in this country. Whatever assurances are given, no government project has ever been completed that is not full of bugs and incorrect data. Add to that basic human error and we have the potential for a huge mess.

Applying for your ID card
You will need reliable forms of ID to obtain an ID card. But if you already have a reliable form of ID then why do you need an ID Card? If you don't have any reliable ID then how can you get your ID card - and if you do, how can the ID card be reliable? There is a serious danger that the new Identity Cards will simply legitimise existing fake ID.

The innocent have nothing to fear
What the innocent have to fear is loss of privacy, the nightmare of problems with a single integrated ID system that everyone would depend on, and incorrect data held on this system about you can blight your life. The worst thing though is that it will be abused.

minestrone
7th November 2008, 10:52
You still haven't answered the question. Are you Hazel Blears?

Will you get an ID card when they become available?

I know you are trying to get me to say 'I will get one when I need one'

Pickle2
7th November 2008, 10:53
Just a question for the anti-immigration lot.

How do you stop an illegal working here currently, given that there are no mandatory forms of id?

Illegal: Can I have a job please?

Business ownner: Are you legal to work here?

Illegal: Yes, I am english (honest) but I have no passport or no driver's licence by the way.

Business Owner (knowing full well he is an illegal): well, that is ok its not a crime, come on in and have the job. I will just have to trust you when you say you are english Yuriy.

Police Man: Naughty Naughty businessman, you have employed an illegal.

Business Man: Well how was I supposed to know? He told me he was english, and there is no way for me to verify it is there?

Police Man: Fair enough, I cant really prosicute you then can I? Carry on sir.

So how the feck do you stop business using illegals under the current system?

Answers on a post, er I mean, id card please.

:rolleyes:

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:55
Banks will be able to check people are who they say they are on the government's national identity database.



Private companies are to be given access to data on an all-encompassing database.

**** that

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:56
I know you are trying to get me to say 'I will get one when I need one'

So you are Hazel Blears.

Stabitty Stab stab stab.

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 10:57
Just a question for the anti-immigration lot.

How do you stop an illegal working here currently, given that there are no mandatory forms of id?

Illegal: Can I have a job please?

Business ownner: Are you legal to work here?

Illegal: Yes, I am english (honest) but I have no passport or no driver's licence by the way.

Business Owner (knowing full well he is an illegal): well, that is ok its not a crime, come on in and have the job. I will just have to trust you when you say you are english Yuriy.

Police Man: Naughty Naughty businessman, you have employed an illegal.

Business Man: Well how was I supposed to know? He told me he was english, and there is no way for me to verify it is there?

Police Man: Fair enough, I cant really prosicute you then can I? Carry on sir.

So how the flip do you stop business using illegals under the current system?

Answers on a post, er I mean, id card please.

:rolleyes:

Quite easy - Ask for their NI number. A call to HMRC to check that the number tallys up with the name. Also - if in doubt, don't employ them. Make the fines for employing somebody not entitled to work here severe and enforce it.

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 10:58
Just a question for the anti-immigration lot.

How do you stop an illegal working here currently, given that there are no mandatory forms of id?

Illegal: Can I have a job please?

Business ownner: Are you legal to work here?

Illegal: Yes, I am english (honest) but I have no passport or no driver's licence by the way.

Business Owner (knowing full well he is an illegal): well, that is ok its not a crime, come on in and have the job. I will just have to trust you when you say you are english Yuriy.

Police Man: Naughty Naughty businessman, you have employed an illegal.

Business Man: Well how was I supposed to know? He told me he was english, and there is no way for me to verify it is there?

Police Man: Fair enough, I cant really prosicute you then can I? Carry on sir.

So how the flip do you stop business using illegals under the current system?

Answers on a post, er I mean, id card please.

:rolleyes:

National insurance number (required unless working cash in hand)

HairyArsedBloke
7th November 2008, 10:59
So you are Hazel Blears.

Stabitty Stab stab stab.

He could be Derek 'Dolly' Draper.

Pickle2
7th November 2008, 11:00
National insurance number (required unless working cash in hand)

You can get one in a second of one of many websites!

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 11:01
Is the best the pro ID card people can come up with? A massive complex and hugely expensive system to replace the cheap and already functioning NI card system.

ace00
7th November 2008, 11:03
You can get one in a second of one of many websites!

You're correct. The problem is the implementation. If you think the government will do a good job of implementing ID cards, then you are Jakie Smith's sockpuppet.

Paddy
7th November 2008, 11:05
I think I will get my ID card from here, it’s cheaper.

http://www.phatism.com/ID-CARD-CATALOGUE.htm

My experience is that I have already been a victim of personal information being sold by government departments for illicit purposes therefore I don’t rust that the information on the identity card will be kept sake from abuse.

There was a case in 2005 where a Nigerian had a forged passport and borrowed £50k from HSBC and other banks to fund a drug ring. It was only after he was arrested and checks were made that showed the passport was forged.

The problem with identity cards will be that common sense will no longer be part of checking people. If they have an ID card, no questions will be asked. It will be the innocent that will suffer, inconvenienced and abused.

Pickle2
7th November 2008, 11:06
You're correct. The problem is the implementation. If you think the government will do a good job of implementing ID cards, then you are Jakie Smith's sockpuppet.

Ah, the lights gone on. So, you're saying its not the ID cards themselves that are the problem after all, its just your fear that they may be implented badly by a labour government?

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 11:08
Ah, the lights gone on. So, your saying its not the ID cards themselves that are the problem after all, its just your fear that they may be implented badly by a labour government?

Not for me, my fear is that


The problem with identity cards will be that common sense will no longer be part of checking people. If they have an ID card, no questions will be asked. It will be the innocent that will suffer, inconvenienced and abused.

comes to pass.

I plan on having two or three with a few different addresses to match my multiple passports. If the government are intent on making innocent folks into criminals, I'm going to go the whole hog myself. ;)

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 11:08
You're correct. The problem is the implementation. If you think the government will do a good job of implementing ID cards, then you are Jakie Smith's sockpuppet.

But the government will not be implementing it. That will be left to the usual suspects who have proven zero interest in building working systems.

Infering from previous projects it is quite sensible to predict it'll actually be more screwed up than the current NI number system.

swamp
7th November 2008, 11:09
ID Cards are great news for contractors. They'll be tons of work:

a) designing it
b) building it
c) fixing it when EDS/CAP/Arce-Enter have ballsed it up
d) maintaining it (for the cheap-o tape changers here)
e) integrating it with Wacky Jackie's database etc.

BOOMED! :yay:

DodgyAgent
7th November 2008, 11:11
This is the ludicrous clap trap everyone spouts. Nobody can actually form a decent workable argument against the cards so the people who don’t want them start making up scenarios and try to use them in a debate. “yes it’s just the start next you will have to RFID your turds” type pish.

It is the ramblings of people who if it was 80 years ago would be saying that mind control suggestion were being transmitted in TV signals.

I’m more worried that we live in a country full of sensationalist gaylords than ID cards.

ID cards are compulsory in Eastern Europe. It is no coincidence that these are part of the legacy left by former police states. They are very convenient but have to be used absolutly everywhere, whether booking theatre tickets booking into a hotel, visiting the doctors surgery. If you are caught without one the police file a report. The data is strictly controlled and third parties have no access to any information held on individuals. It does not seem that the data is abused, but you leave a visible trail wherever you go and whatever you do. This is fine provided you do nothing wrong.

This govt has a track record of wanting to control people and they have abused the anti terrorism laws. Couple this with their sheer mind blowing incompetence at getting anything done, ID cards should be shelved and the money saved instead used to help give kids a better education.

DodgyAgent
7th November 2008, 11:13
ID Cards are great news for contractors. They'll be tons of work:

a) designing it
b) building it
c) fixing it when EDS/CAP/Arce-Enter have ballsed it up
d) maintaining it (for the cheap-o tape changers here)
e) integrating it with Wacky Jackie's database etc.

BOOMED! :yay:

f) re fixing it again once contractors have balles up the fix
d) sending it to an Indian company for re-designing and re-writing.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 11:15
ID Cards are great news for contractors. They'll be tons of work:

a) designing it
b) building it
c) fixing it when EDS/CAP/Arce-Enter have ballsed it up
d) maintaining it (for the cheap-o tape changers here)
e) integrating it with Wacky Jackie's database etc.

BOOMED! :yay:

That reminds me of the Mexican President who had the printers print loads of bank notes, and then was surprised when they didn't want to be paid with them.

EternalOptimist
7th November 2008, 11:15
I think I will get my ID card from here, it’s cheaper.

http://www.phatism.com/ID-CARD-CATALOGUE.htm

There was a case in 2005 where a Nigerian had a forged passport and borrowed £50k from HSBC and other banks to fund a drug ring. It was only after he was arrested and checks were made that showed the passport was forged.


In 'the great escape', Eric 'digger' Dowling managed to forge German ID papers with half a beetroot and a jar of wee.

If you can achieve that whilst you are locked up in a stalag, just think what Al Quaeda will be able to do




:rolleyes:

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 11:18
f) re fixing it again once contractors have balles up the fix
d) sending it to an Indian company for re-designing and re-writing.

alphabet not your strong point then DA?

minestrone
7th November 2008, 11:19
ID cards are compulsory in Eastern Europe. It is no coincidence that these are part of the legacy left by former police states. They are very convenient but have to be used absolutly everywhere, whether booking theatre tickets booking into a hotel, visiting the doctors surgery. If you are caught without one the police file a report. The data is strictly controlled and third parties have no access to any information held on individuals. It does not seem that the data is abused, but you leave a visible trail wherever you go and whatever you do. This is fine provided you do nothing wrong.

This govt has a track record of wanting to control people and they have abused the anti terrorism laws. Couple this with their sheer mind blowing incompetence at getting anything done, ID cards should be shelved and the money saved instead used to help give kids a better education.

ID cards are pretty much common throughout europe.

You leave a trace everywhere you go anyway.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 11:20
alpabet not your strong point then DA?

He's probably working from the front panel of his fax machine.

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 11:21
ID cards are pretty much common throughout europe.

You leave a trace everywhere you go anyway.

So is there is no terrorism or illegal working in these countries? Spain has ID cards and as far as I know, they have had bombings and lots of people working there illegaly. So how do ID cards stop this again?

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 11:23
ID cards are pretty much common throughout europe.

You leave a trace everywhere you go anyway.

Where in Europe do you have an ID card that is anywhere near as wide ranging as the one they're building in England?

In the Nordics, it is simpler than a NI number.

In Eastern Europe your personal information is never sold to companies.

So, where exactly?

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 11:25
ID cards are pretty much common throughout europe.

You leave a trace everywhere you go anyway.

The US doesn't have them.

I bet your one of those "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" brigade aren't you?

minestrone
7th November 2008, 11:25
Where in Europe do you have an ID card that is anywhere near as wide ranging as the one they're building in England?

In the Nordics, it is simpler than a NI number.

In Eastern Europe your personal information is never sold to companies.

So, where exactly?


Well if you only need them in England I won't need one then

minestrone
7th November 2008, 11:27
So is there is no terrorism or illegal working in these countries? Spain has ID cards and as far as I know, they have had bombings and lots of people working there illegaly. So how do ID cards stop this again?

I never said it would.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 11:27
Well if you only need them in England I won't need one then

Oh dear, you are one of threadeds sockpuppets just trolling us. Well it was fun whilst it lasted.

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 11:28
I never said it would.

Ok, state your position then:

Why do we need ID cards?

minestrone
7th November 2008, 11:28
Ok, state your position then:

Why do we need ID cards?

Why do we need passports?

Sysman
7th November 2008, 11:30
Private companies are to be given access to data on an all-encompassing database.

**** that

Also, the last item in section 2 of the Wikileak document:


Employers would play an important role in implementation of the Scheme.

I don't know about anyone else here, but there's at least one previous employer who I refuse point blank to have in control of my destiny in any way whatsoever.

swamp
7th November 2008, 11:35
f) re fixing it again once contractors have balles up the fix
d) sending it to an Indian company for re-designing and re-writing.

h) re-scoping the project when the Indian's balls it up
i) implementing new (Labour) strategic initiative "Connecting for Protection"

and I nearly forgot:

j) decommissioning the whole thing when the Tories get in power :D

Moscow Mule
7th November 2008, 11:35
Why do we need passports?

**** me, you are Hazel Blears.

To answer your question, to facilitate border control.

Are you saying we need another document just to facilitate border control, or are you saying you haven't got a good reason for ID cards and you just will STFU now?

sunnysan
7th November 2008, 11:36
Why do we need passports?

Technically we dont need a passport if we do not wish to pass beyond the border of your country of residence.

We can use a passport to establish our identity as well as other sources, drivers licence etc.

So we use a passport to identify ourselves at border posts, we use whatever else we have to identify ourselves within the country.

So the question still stands.... WTF do we need ID cards?

They are not replacing anything or offering me as an individual any conceivable benefit. Nor do I believe they will offer any other benefit as forgers will begin to forge id cards as well.

expat
7th November 2008, 11:47
Why do we need passports?We don't. Governments want us to have them so that they can control our movements.

In the early part of the 20th century there was no passport as we know it. You could prepare for a journey by writing to the consulates or governments of countries you intended to travel to, asking for their approval to do so. They would then often write back to you approving your intention, and that would be a "passport". You would show it to any officials at the port of entry, who would stamp it as seen, or "visa" in Latin.

But you didn't need to do that, it was equally common just to go to, say, France or Italy without any preamble whatever.

Then the requirement for a specially-obtained government-approved identity document for travel was introduced by that ever-inventive organisation, the British Government, inventor of every boon from income tax to the dum-dum bullet. The idea took off and they all do it now.

DodgyAgent
7th November 2008, 11:58
alphabet not your strong point then DA?

struggling today to put my fingers in the right places :tongue

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 12:05
I never said it would.

Bu you have not actually said why we need them. Give us the reasons why we should spend vast sums of money to replace the forms of ID that we already have.

Ruprect
7th November 2008, 12:42
My reasons against ID card scheme are:

It will be open to abuse
It will be open to forgery
It will be open to abuse
It won't solve any problems
It will be open to abuse
It costs a fortune and will introduce another stealth tax
It will be open to abuse
I am innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way round.
It will be open to abuse
I see no reason why the government should hold my DNA/fingerprint/retina scan - it is an invasion of privacy
It will be open to abuse
The data will be made available to private companies - it is an invasion of privacy
It will be open to abuse
Given the government's track record for securing data, it will be hacked, or data will be lost
It will be open to abuse
It wont stop terrorism
It will be open to abuse
It wont stop illegal workers
It will be open to abuse

To name but a few...

Sysman
7th November 2008, 12:51
My reasons against ID card scheme are:

It will be open to abuse
It will be open to forgery
It will be open to abuse
It won't solve any problems
It will be open to abuse
It costs a fortune and will introduce another stealth tax
It will be open to abuse
I am innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way round.
It will be open to abuse
I see no reason why the government should hold my DNA/fingerprint/retina scan - it is an invasion of privacy
It will be open to abuse
The data will be made available to private companies - it is an invasion of privacy
It will be open to abuse
Given the government's track record for securing data, it will be hacked, or data will be lost
It will be open to abuse
It wont stop terrorism
It will be open to abuse
It wont stop illegal workers
It will be open to abuse

To name but a few...

Why the sudden need to have our fingerprints on file anyway? It used to be that the police would destroy fingerprints taken from innocent parties, only keeping the fingerprints of convicted criminals permanently.

Purple Dalek
7th November 2008, 13:04
Why the sudden need to have our fingerprints on file anyway? It used to be that the police would destroy fingerprints taken from innocent parties, only keeping the fingerprints of convicted criminals permanently.

That one is easy: it's because you're all criminals now.

At least to a Nu-Liebor mind.

HairyArsedBloke
7th November 2008, 13:14
I just heard a good one: “Those with nothing to hide have the most to fear”. Amongst the various reasoning was “Everyone has something to hide or that they are not proud of. If someone has an identity with no black marks against it whatsoever then it will be flagged as being a potential forgery and they will face further, in-depth investigation.

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 13:56
It's strange how even the pro id cards people cannot give any real reasons why we should spend all this money to replicate and duplicate our existing forms of ID.

Bob Dalek
7th November 2008, 14:11
It's strange how even the pro id cards people cannot give any real reasons why we should spend all this money to replicate and duplicate our existing forms of ID.

They have never been any use. In the war, they were utterly reproducible bits of paper/cardboard, viz. The Great Escape.

Sysman
7th November 2008, 14:28
That one is easy: it's because you're all criminals now.

At least to a Nu-Liebor mind.

Oh Dear™ (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/16/60minutes/main563607.shtml)


Fingerprints: Infallible Evidence?

(CBS) The FBI has long maintained that fingerprint identification is an exact science that can be used to match prints with 100 percent certainty. But recently, the bureau was forced to admit that three top analysts all made the same mistake when they swore that fingerprint evidence linked Oregon lawyer Brandon Mayfield to the terrorist bombings in Madrid. Mayfield spent two weeks in jail before the FBI admitted its error and offered an apology.

Mayfield is one of a small but growing number of Americans who've been jailed on the basis a fingerprint match that turned out to be false.

...

Doggy Styles
7th November 2008, 14:47
Mayfield is one of a small but growing number of Americans who've been jailed on the basis a fingerprint match that turned out to be false.And if he hadn't been a lawyer he might still be there.

ratewhore
7th November 2008, 15:17
Has anyone done this (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/06/smith_dabs_grab/) 'Oh dear'?


Jacqui Smith prints seized by No2ID in daring dabs grab

:laugh

Beefy198
7th November 2008, 17:56
It's strange how even the pro id cards people cannot give any real reasons why we should spend all this money to replicate and duplicate our existing forms of ID.

Exactly, it appears at the moment that they'll merely contain the exact same details as a driving licence.

Ruprect
7th November 2008, 19:04
Exactly, it appears at the moment that they'll merely contain the exact same details as a driving licence.

and some...

OwlHoot
7th November 2008, 19:41
Has anyone done this (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/06/smith_dabs_grab/) 'Oh dear'?

:laugh

Curious how there isn't a squeek about that story on Al JaBeeba (last time I looked)

HairyArsedBloke
7th November 2008, 19:50
Only this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7714968.stm)

Incognito
7th November 2008, 20:33
It's strange how even the pro id cards people cannot give any real reasons why we should spend all this money to replicate and duplicate our existing forms of ID.

We don't have an existing form of ID. We have a driving licence that confirms the driver of a vehicle is medically fit and was proficient in the skills required to drive a vehicle at the time of issue and we have a passport that confirms the holder is a citizen of the UK. Neither is compulsory.

Ruprect
7th November 2008, 20:47
We don't have an existing form of ID. We have a driving licence that confirms the driver of a vehicle is medically fit and was proficient in the skills required to drive a vehicle at the time of issue and we have a passport that confirms the holder is a citizen of the UK. Neither is compulsory.

Ironic that user with name "Incognito" is pro ID cards :wave:

BoredBloke
7th November 2008, 21:43
We don't have an existing form of ID. We have a driving licence that confirms the driver of a vehicle is medically fit and was proficient in the skills required to drive a vehicle at the time of issue and we have a passport that confirms the holder is a citizen of the UK. Neither is compulsory.

Wasn't one of the earlier arguments from the pro ID card lot that the ID card was not compulsory! This goes round in circles. It replicates the existing information that is already available, adds loads more to it, is going to cost a fortune to implement and run and at the end of the day it will actually give us nothing and to top it off, it may or may not be compulsory. Brilliant! Where do I sign up.

I'd imagine those most in favour of ID cards are those preparing to clone them. Other than them I can't think of 1 reason at all why I would want/need an ID card - and neither it seems do the pro id card people.

Incognito
8th November 2008, 19:18
Wasn't one of the earlier arguments from the pro ID card lot that the ID card was not compulsory!

Never heard that one myself. I reckon you're making it up.


I'd imagine those most in favour of ID cards are those preparing to clone them. Other than them I can't think of 1 reason at all why I would want/need an ID card - and neither it seems do the pro id card people.

I'm favour of ID cards and no, I'm not preparing to clone them. The ID card scheme isn't to benefit you or make your life easier.

Moscow Mule
8th November 2008, 19:20
I'm favour of ID cards and no, I'm not preparing to clone them. The ID card scheme isn't to benefit you or make your life easier.

So why should the government, who is supposed to serve me and the rest of the country acting in a way which won't benefit me or the rest of the country?

Incognito
8th November 2008, 19:31
So why should the government, who is supposed to serve me and the rest of the country acting in a way which won't benefit me or the rest of the country?

That's not what I said, I said the ID card won't benefit you personally, but the concept and idea behind the ID card scheme will benefit society as a whole. At least I think it will, I'm sure you don't think it will so there's no point getting into it.

BrilloPad
8th November 2008, 19:50
That's not what I said, I said the ID card won't benefit you personally, but the concept and idea behind the ID card scheme will benefit society as a whole. At least I think it will, I'm sure you don't think it will so there's no point getting into it.

Who cares what we(i.e. the UK) think - it will come in anyway.

Purple Dalek
8th November 2008, 19:59
So, threaded, realising that the 'minestrone' sockpuppet is outed, swaps to the 'igognito' persona...

Erm, that's a little weak.

Smacks of the lesser intellects. :bang:

TykeMerc
8th November 2008, 20:17
That's not what I said, I said the ID card won't benefit you personally, but the concept and idea behind the ID card scheme will benefit society as a whole. At least I think it will, I'm sure you don't think it will so there's no point getting into it.

Would you please quantify what benefits the card will bring to society as a whole, because I for one can't think of one.

The card won't replace passports or driving licences, it will require a massive overarching all inclusive database which will make all of our details vulnerable and we will all have to pay to obtain a card that we simply don't want.

I see no positives and lots of negatives to this ID card scheme.

Paddy
8th November 2008, 21:55
Would you please quantify what benefits the card will bring to society as a whole, because I for one can't think of one.

The card won't replace passports or driving licences, it will require a massive overarching all inclusive database which will make all of our details vulnerable and we will all have to pay to obtain a card that we simply don't want.

I see no positives and lots of negatives to this ID card scheme.

The government says although it will be compulsory to have ID cards but it won’t be compulsory to carry them. Mr Illegal Emigrant and Mr Bomber will get 14 days to produce aan ID card at a police station by which time they will be long gone. Meanwhile at the bank Mrs Higgins a known customer for 30 years can’t get any money out because her ID card was stolen. Mr Undinggo who has a forged ID card just opened up his bank account.

Purple Dalek
8th November 2008, 22:02
The government says although it will be compulsory to have ID cards but it won’t be compulsory to carry them. Mr Illegal Emigrant and Mr Bomber will get 14 days to produce aan ID card at a police station by which time they will be long gone. Meanwhile at the bank Mrs Higgins a known customer for 30 years can’t get any money out because her ID card was stolen. Mr Undinggo who has a forged ID card just opened up his bank account.

Which, under Nu-Liebor, is as it should be. You must be a terrorist to question these things.

Now, sit still, on that tube seat there, (what you got a seat, something definitely fishy 'bout you,) whilst we shoot you in the head, with no warning.

It's only fair.

Incognito
9th November 2008, 22:39
So, threaded, realising that the 'minestrone' sockpuppet is outed, swaps to the 'igognito' persona...

Erm, that's a little weak.

Smacks of the lesser intellects. :bang:


I've been here long enough to have made my views clear, I can assure you I'm no-ones sockpuppet unlike you who has 70 posts since 2006. Been building up your other identities perchance?

You want to know my arguments search my post history.

Ruprect
10th November 2008, 09:44
You want to know my arguments search my post history.

:laugh Seriously, if you've got nothing better to do than this, then consider :suicide:

oracleslave
10th November 2008, 09:46
unlike you who has 70 posts since 2006. Been building up your other identities perchance?



Whs, come on Purple Dalek, whose sockpuppet are you?

DodgyAgent
10th November 2008, 09:59
That's not what I said, I said the ID card won't benefit you personally, but the concept and idea behind the ID card scheme will benefit society as a whole. At least I think it will, I'm sure you don't think it will so there's no point getting into it.


Is that as in
"the concept and idea of communism" will benefit society as a whole?

Moscow Mule
10th November 2008, 10:08
but the concept and idea behind the ID card scheme will benefit society as a whole.

Can you just explain how? I'll shut up then too. Promise.

Ruprect
10th November 2008, 10:08
Is that as in
"the concept and idea of communism" will benefit society as a whole?

:D You're getting it now dodgy!

Peoplesoft bloke
10th November 2008, 12:00
Pro-id card posters never seem to able to point to a single good reason why we need them.

Peoplesoft bloke
10th November 2008, 19:38
They vanish into the ether if asked even the simplest of questions.

Incognito
10th November 2008, 22:00
They vanish into the ether if asked even the simplest of questions.

I'm not biting. :D

Peoplesoft bloke
10th November 2008, 22:32
They profess support for the cards but refuse to offer any justifications at all.

BoredBloke
10th November 2008, 23:19
I'm not biting. :D

I don't see it as being about biting. You support ID cards yet you don't offer up one thing which this hugely expensive system would actually solve. Your inability to suggest any real benefits of an ID card shows that they are not needed.

Board Game Geek
11th November 2008, 00:06
Ok, I'll bite.

ID cards are good, because they will stop terrorism and stuff.

And dodgy benefit criminals.

I know because the Government said so.

So there !

Cliphead
11th November 2008, 00:10
**** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards, **** yer ID cards, Furck yer ID cards,

And shove them up yer arse.

PS - Note to self, don't post when pissed...

Board Game Geek
11th November 2008, 01:46
I think you're on to a hit song there Clippy !

Liability
11th November 2008, 03:37
The reason this will go ahead is due to the first phase of a multi phase roll out of public tagging. ID cards will be a medium for RFDI and eventually it will be illegal not to have one. This is the only way we can realistically keep tags on people.

Is it a good thing? Who knows! Will it be accepted? Yes - Just wait for the next terrorist attack or something - people will be asking for it!

expat
11th November 2008, 07:56
The reason this will go ahead is due to the first phase of a multi phase roll out of public tagging. ID cards will be a medium for RFDI and eventually it will be illegal not to have one. This is the only way we can realistically keep tags on people.

Is it a good thing? Who knows! Will it be accepted? Yes - Just wait for the next terrorist attack or something - people will be asking for it!I'm sure you're right. Back in the days when there were relatively few CCTV cameras in public places, and there was still some reservation about their widespread use, Jamie Bulger's killers were caught with CCTV images. I remember thinking (as well as Good that they're caught) that's it, in comes CCTV everywhere. I rest my case.

All that is wrong with Jacqui Smith's statement is that she wasn't supposed to say it yet.

Purple Dalek
11th November 2008, 08:26
I'm sure you're right. Back in the days when there were relatively few CCTV cameras in public places, and there was still some reservation about their widespread use, Jamie Bulger's killers were caught with CCTV images. I remember thinking (as well as Good that they're caught) that's it, in comes CCTV everywhere. I rest my case.

All that is wrong with Jacqui Smith's statement is that she wasn't supposed to say it yet.

Jamie Bulger's killers were caught without CCTV, many of the officers on the case considered the images a major distraction, and some a hinderance in getting people to give quality information. That CCTV was lauded up after the fact is interesting.

DodgyAgent
11th November 2008, 08:35
I'm sure you're right. Back in the days when there were relatively few CCTV cameras in public places, and there was still some reservation about their widespread use, Jamie Bulger's killers were caught with CCTV images. I remember thinking (as well as Good that they're caught) that's it, in comes CCTV everywhere. I rest my case.

All that is wrong with Jacqui Smith's statement is that she wasn't supposed to say it yet.


One of my staff was badly beaten up in the middle of a town centre. The police have failed to find anyone from the CCTV pictures saying that they were obscured by trees, even though there were plenty of people who would have recognised attackers. CCTV technology is only good for capturing number plates on speeding cars owned by law abiding middle classs people.

expat
11th November 2008, 08:45
Jamie Bulger's killers were caught without CCTV, many of the officers on the case considered the images a major distraction, and some a hinderance in getting people to give quality information. That CCTV was lauded up after the fact is interesting.Interesting.

Peoplesoft bloke
11th November 2008, 09:03
........ CCTV technology is only good for capturing number plates on speeding cars owned by law abiding middle classs people.
Speeding's against the law.

Purple Dalek
11th November 2008, 09:09
Speeding's against the law.

I think he meant to say 'otherwise law abiding people'.

The NuLiebor project has brought in so many laws you're all criminals and potential terrorists. Especially you lot who are self-employed, run their own small businesses, etc.

Peoplesoft bloke
11th November 2008, 09:16
The reason this will go ahead is due to the first phase of a multi phase roll out of public tagging. ID cards will be a medium for RFDI and eventually it will be illegal not to have one. This is the only way we can realistically keep tags on people.
Except it won't work for "keeping tags" on anyone but the innocent stupid majority.

Is it a good thing? Who knows!Anyone who has given it more than a cursory thought will realise it's a bad thing.


Will it be accepted? Yes - Just wait for the next terrorist attack or something - people will be asking for it!True, but stupid people ask for all kinds of stupid things.

Ruprect
11th November 2008, 09:55
I think you're on to a hit song there Clippy !

Ian brown already did one:



I aint no number
I don't need no ID round my neck
So Mr Politician
I got born and named like blood runs red
Cause I I aint no number
Don't require no ID round my neck
So Mr number maker
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet

Think think of a number
Think of a number one to ten
If five five is your number
Times that five by two to make a ten
Cause I I aint no number
I don't need no ID round my neck
So Mr number maker
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet

So my little girl keep dancing
Kiss Ya lips and love yourself so right
Click Mr number maker
Wants your fingerprints your ass and eye
To stipulate your identification
Got born and raised like blood runs red
Wants to slip a microchip in my lip
Cause loose lips sink ships
Keep it shake ya hips
Keep it kiss ya lips I aint no number
I don't need no ID run my neck
So my little girl keep dancing
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet
So my little girl keep dancing
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet
So my little girl keep dancing
Keep dancing
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet

BoredBloke
11th November 2008, 10:19
So still not a single point to support the introduction of a hugely expensive system.

Bob Dalek
11th November 2008, 10:20
So still not a single point to support the introduction of a hugely expensive system.

Someone, somewhere in Government, will make a FORTUNE out of it. That's the reason. Tsk!

Board Game Geek
11th November 2008, 10:52
So still not a single point to support the introduction of a hugely expensive system.

er...plenty of contracting jobs paying silly money good enough for some of the mercenaries on here ? :tongue

Purple Dalek
11th November 2008, 11:01
er...plenty of contracting jobs paying silly money good enough for some of the mercenaries on here ? :tongue

No, it'd have to be paid in Euros too. None of that tanking pound crap you can't buy anything with.

Liability
11th November 2008, 11:02
Except it won't work for "keeping tags" on anyone but the innocent stupid majority.
Anyone who has given it more than a cursory thought will realise it's a bad thing.


I see what you are saying - but the contracts for this are already in place and with Thales already designing the early system with the remainder of the higher value contracts being given End of Jan 2009 it is a done deal - Conservatives will not be able to reverse this.

There are good and bad about these ID cards. For a second [and Im still open on this] think about it - IF they work and they are rolled out and EVERYONE, by a certain date, HAS to have them - than it could have some benefit?

Churchill
11th November 2008, 11:15
I see what you are saying - but the contracts for this are already in place and with Thales already designing the early system with the remainder of the higher value contracts being given End of Jan 2009 it is a done deal - Conservatives will not be able to reverse this.

There are good and bad about these ID cards. For a second [and Im still open on this] think about it - IF they work and they are rolled out and EVERYONE, by a certain date, HAS to have them - than it could have some benefit?

"If they work"?

WTF are they supposed to do?

Actually if I can ditch my Driving Licence, my Passport, my numerous bank/credit cards then I'm all in favour of them!

Churchill - In "Tongue in Cheek Mode, for the hard of thinking, notably AtW and Purple Dalek"

Purple Dalek
11th November 2008, 11:24
"If they work"?

WTF are they supposed to do?

Actually if I can ditch my Driving Licence, my Passport, my numerous bank/credit cards then I'm all in favour of them!

What a plank. No, this id card is in addition to all the other cards. You don't seriously think it will replace anything?

Churchill
11th November 2008, 11:25
What a plank. No, this id card is in addition to all the other cards. You don't seriously think it will replace anything?

No, obviously I don't.

That would remove the income stream coming in from renewed driving licences and passports.

Btw, who the f**k do you think you're calling a plank?

Signo_cypher
11th November 2008, 11:27
Nobody is actually forcing you to have one, that is myth number one.

Thats a VERY naive statement. It's the dripping tap effect, one change follows another follows another. They wont make it compulsary straight away, we would rightly all be up in arms if they did. Introduce it, make it voluntary, over time a few more 'terrorist events' will call for tighter controls, before you know it we have compulsary cards.

Think it cant happen? Look at the EU, started as a free trade agreement, good for business, look at it now.

Purple Dalek
11th November 2008, 11:28
Btw, who the f**k do you think you're calling a plank?

You.

Why? Is there anyone else here resembling that remark?

Churchill
11th November 2008, 11:30
You.

Why? Is there anyone else here resembling that remark?

Next time I post a tongue-in-cheek remark I'll highlight the fact by adding the note "Tongue in Cheek Mode, for the hard of thinking, notably AtW and Purple Dalek".

Point taken.

EternalOptimist
11th November 2008, 11:31
One of my staff was badly beaten up in the middle of a town centre. The police have failed to find anyone from the CCTV pictures saying that they were obscured by trees..

police are now questioning 50,000 contractors :rolleyes:

Purple Dalek
11th November 2008, 11:33
Next time I post a tongue-in-cheek remark I'll highlight the fact by adding the note "Tongue in Cheek Mode, for the hard of thinking, notably AtW and Purple Dalek".

Point taken.

Do you often partake of this tounge-in-cheek behaviour? Sounds a little odd.

DodgyAgent
11th November 2008, 11:33
police are now questioning 50,000 contractors :rolleyes:

:laugh

Churchill
11th November 2008, 11:36
Do you often partake of this tounge-in-cheek behaviour? Sounds a little odd.

Allow me this little guess, you're not British, are you?

You understand a few of the words but when they're put together to construct a sentence, you're f**ked!

DodgyAgent
11th November 2008, 11:37
Do you often partake of this tounge-in-cheek behaviour? Sounds a little odd.


:spel between the cheeks

Churchill
11th November 2008, 11:39
:spel between the cheeks

Now, now, that's just not nice!
(<ahem> I believe...)

DodgyAgent
11th November 2008, 12:08
Now, now, that's just not nice!
(<ahem> I believe...)


On your recommendation I wont try it then :ohwell

Churchill
11th November 2008, 12:09
On your recommendation I wont try it then :ohwell

You should be alright if you tell her to floss afterwards!

Doggy Styles
11th November 2008, 12:10
ID cards will propel us into Kafka's world.

derekthedalek
11th November 2008, 12:21
ID cards? You humans really haven't got a clue, have you.

Firstly there is no such thing as uncrackable technology, and so putting all your ID eggs in this particular basket is inviting chaos and untold crime. The sample cards recently demonstrated with all the up-to-date software and hardware encryption were cracked and cloned very quickly.

As for having nothing to fear - you wouldn't want some administrator (it could be your neighbour, your enemy, or any old pervert really) being able to use the ID card technology to pull all those databases together and build up a history of your life. Everywhere you've been with your mobile phone, everything you've bought, everywhere you've driven, every conversation you've had by phone or email, every CCTV camera you've appeared on, every dodgy website you've visited. All listed in chronological order. A lot of that is currently recorded, but on in disparate places where it is very difficult to pull together. The idea of ID cards is to index them all and pull out "Joe Bloggs" history.

And just wait until your bank account is frozen, or your passport taken away, or access to your kids blocked because there is a tiny mistake in your data that you cannot put right because the ID card must be correct and there to detect people like you and no-one believes you, and so you have to fill in a 72-page form with all your life's details in triplicate and convince six layers of bureaucracy one at a time each taking at least four months and then, eventually, if you are lucky and they haven't lost your case notes twice so you've had to start again and you've got The Sun on your side, you might get a probationary correction. By which time your kids have grown up and they are visiting you instead.

If I were one of you humans I'd have plenty to fear. This is the world of Kafka, which will be far worse than a Dalek invasion.

Incognito
11th November 2008, 16:54
I had an ID card when I was in the Armed forces and it did what it was meant to do. Identify me as being someone that was allowed access to a particular place.

Now imagine that particular place as the UK and the ID card as being the identifier that you or the person next to you is allowed here. Of course no card is uncrackable, technology can only make it cost restrictive and inhibitive to fake a card on a regular basis and this can only improve as technology improves, I contend though that it will be harder to crack and clone a card than knock up a dodgy driving licence.

The be all and end all of identity isn't going to be the card anyway; it is the database behind it. You can still fake a card to say you're Gordon Brown, but if you don't match Gordon Brown on the database then you'll be caught eventually. They won't query the database at a bank or post office when you're using the card to get a credit card, but at points of entry and exit to the UK, whilst claiming benefits, assisting police in their inquiries, gaining security clearance, applying for a passport, applying for a driving licence, etc, etc.

SallyAnne
11th November 2008, 17:04
Identify me as being someone that was allowed access to a particular place.
<blah blah blah>



(a) they'll be fakeable
(b) in order to get one you need the CURRENT I.D. which proves who we are. If this isn't good enough already, how will the new card be?
(c) the database behind it will loose people's data, so it WONT identify correct people (see point (e))
(d) people will HAVE to pay for the pleasure of all this as you MUST have one (and must have the current I.D. in order to get one! )
(e) the database behind it will be written by EDS so it'll take 10 years and £10billion for the privalge of (c) and (d)
(f) We've just had a 2 minutes silence today for, among others, a great many people who gave up their lives so future generations could live in freedom. Freedom. Anyone who is in favour of this system is either too stupid or too ignorant to know what Freedom truly means.

Bob Dalek
11th November 2008, 17:16
(a) they'll be fakeable
(b) in order to get one you need the CURRENT I.D. which proves who we are. If this isn't good enough already, how will the new card be?
(c) the database behind it will loose people's data, so it WONT identify correct people (see point (e))
(d) people will HAVE to pay for the pleasure of all this as you MUST have one (and must have the current I.D. in order to get one! )
(e) the database behind it will be written by EDS so it'll take 10 years and £10billion for the privalge of (c) and (d)
(f) We've just had a 2 minutes silence today for, among others, a great many people who gave up their lives so future generations could live in freedom. Freedom. Anyone who is in favour of this system is either too stupid or too ignorant to know what Freedom truly means.


Agreed.

expat
11th November 2008, 17:46
(a) they'll be fakeable
(b) in order to get one you need the CURRENT I.D. which proves who we are. If this isn't good enough already, how will the new card be?
(c) the database behind it will loose people's data, so it WONT identify correct people (see point (e))
(d) people will HAVE to pay for the pleasure of all this as you MUST have one (and must have the current I.D. in order to get one! )
(e) the database behind it will be written by EDS so it'll take 10 years and £10billion for the privalge of (c) and (d)
(f) We've just had a 2 minutes silence today for, among others, a great many people who gave up their lives so future generations could live in freedom. Freedom. Anyone who is in favour of this system is either too stupid or too ignorant to know what Freedom truly means.
Spot-on all points.

Sysman
11th November 2008, 17:56
(a) they'll be fakeable
(b) in order to get one you need the CURRENT I.D. which proves who we are. If this isn't good enough already, how will the new card be?
(c) the database behind it will loose people's data, so it WONT identify correct people (see point (e))
(d) people will HAVE to pay for the pleasure of all this as you MUST have one (and must have the current I.D. in order to get one! )
(e) the database behind it will be written by EDS so it'll take 10 years and £10billion for the privalge of (c) and (d)
(f) We've just had a 2 minutes silence today for, among others, a great many people who gave up their lives so future generations could live in freedom. Freedom. Anyone who is in favour of this system is either too stupid or too ignorant to know what Freedom truly means.


Well said, Sally Anne.

Paddy
11th November 2008, 18:37
I had an ID card when I was in the Armed forces and it did what it was meant to do. Identify me as being someone that was allowed access to a particular place.

Now imagine that particular place as the UK and the ID card as being the identifier that you or the person next to you is allowed here. Of course no card is uncrackable, technology can only make it cost restrictive and inhibitive to fake a card on a regular basis and this can only improve as technology improves, I contend though that it will be harder to crack and clone a card than knock up a dodgy driving licence.

The be all and end all of identity isn't going to be the card anyway; it is the database behind it. You can still fake a card to say you're Gordon Brown, but if you don't match Gordon Brown on the database then you'll be caught eventually. They won't query the database at a bank or post office when you're using the card to get a credit card, but at points of entry and exit to the UK, whilst claiming benefits, assisting police in their inquiries, gaining security clearance, applying for a passport, applying for a driving licence, etc, etc.

I had my photo-driving licence stolen by an employee working in a government department who then sold it on. The licence was used to open bank accounts and to commit fraud. Even though the DVLA were aware of the situation and the stolen licence was reported to the police but they never made any proper cross checks when the assailant produced my licence as identity. It was only after the guy was caught red handed in a robbery that they realised he had a stolen licence. Needless to say you can imagine who much havoc and disruption it caused me for three years while my licence was being used.

It is also plain and obvious to anyone who sees me and speaks to me that I am British and that has been the case up until now. I object in having to have to proof that I am a British citizen just so the authorities can be PC with Mr Umdingo who has just got his British passport. When I travel to any other country, any foreign looking person (and I do not mean colour) is picked on and checked out, why does the UK have to be different?

Incognito
11th November 2008, 18:38
[FACT]
(a) they'll be fakeable
As I said, the database is where you maintain your integrity

(b) in order to get one you need the CURRENT I.D. which proves who we are. If this isn't good enough already, how will the new card be?
We don't have a current form of I.D. we have a driving licence and a passport that are used as forms of identification. The ID card may be circumvented by a wrong 'un, but that'll only happen once due to the biometric data. When you're on it, you're on it.

(c) the database behind it will loose people's data, so it WONT identify correct people (see point (e))
A database does not lose data, human error causes data loss.

(d) people will HAVE to pay for the pleasure of all this as you MUST have one (and must have the current I.D. in order to get one! )
I have no problem with that

(e) the database behind it will be written by EDS so it'll take 10 years and £10billion for the privalge of (c) and (d)
Is that straight from the horse's mouth is it? Considering that 'writing the database' as you put it hasn't been tendered yet. Although Thales SA did win the tender (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/01/thales_wins_id_card_contract/) to create the protoype register, but why let fact get in the way of your fantasy.

(f) We've just had a 2 minutes silence today for, among others, a great many people who gave up their lives so future generations could live in freedom. Freedom. Anyone who is in favour of this system is either too stupid or too ignorant to know what Freedom truly means.
Yes, an identity card will restrict your movements, only allow you to buy a red car, limit you to 1 child per household and automatically notify the council that you've put a brown envelope in the plastic recycling container. I'm well aware of your concept of freedom SA in your thread about paedophillia. 'I don't agree with your views' is a bit of an understatement.


HTH

Peoplesoft bloke
11th November 2008, 20:39
(a) they'll be fakeable
(b) in order to get one you need the CURRENT I.D. which proves who we are. If this isn't good enough already, how will the new card be?
(c) the database behind it will loose people's data, so it WONT identify correct people (see point (e))
(d) people will HAVE to pay for the pleasure of all this as you MUST have one (and must have the current I.D. in order to get one! )
(e) the database behind it will be written by EDS so it'll take 10 years and £10billion for the privalge of (c) and (d)
(f) We've just had a 2 minutes silence today for, among others, a great many people who gave up their lives so future generations could live in freedom. Freedom. Anyone who is in favour of this system is either too stupid or too ignorant to know what Freedom truly means.


100% correct and better expressed than I've managed to boot. I would like to buy you a drink/shoes/coffee/whatever.

EternalOptimist
11th November 2008, 20:46
g) even if they were cheap, reliable and difficult to forge I still dont want it.
I just dont like being told what to do





:rolleyes:

Peoplesoft bloke
11th November 2008, 20:51
I had an ID card when I was in the Armed forces , etc, etc.

Are you going to answer Moscow Mule's question - the one where you said there would be benefits to society but just ran away when asked what they were?

Incognito
11th November 2008, 22:04
Are you going to answer Moscow Mule's question - the one where you said there would be benefits to society but just ran away when asked what they were?

I think you know my arguments quite clear enough seeing as you've been at my throat about ID cards for about five months now, but to humour you I'll summarise.

1. Control borders by identifying who should be here and who shouldn't.
2. Controlling ID fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.
3. Controlling benefit fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.
4. Speeding up identification issues for the police and courts.
5. Helping prevent terrorism by cutting down on fake travel documentation and fake credit cards / bank accounts.
5. Helping prevent crime by cutting down on fake travel documentation and fake credit cards / bank accounts.
6. Helping trace wayward parents for the CSA to reduce state payments.
7. Speeding up immigration resources by identifying previous failed asylum seekers / overstayed visas, etc.
8. Helping the countless millions who don't currently have Id prove their identity when opening bank accounts etc.
9. Help reduce money laundering by having all bank accounts verifiable to an identity.
10. Cutting down on health tourists that shouldn't be draining our NHS
11. National fingerprint database for crime prevention ( :D)

TykeMerc
11th November 2008, 22:42
I think you know my arguments quite clear enough seeing as you've been at my throat about ID cards for about five months now, but to humour you I'll summarise.

1. Control borders by identifying who should be here and who shouldn't.
2. Controlling ID fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.
3. Controlling benefit fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.
4. Speeding up identification issues for the police and courts.
5. Helping prevent terrorism by cutting down on fake travel documentation and fake credit cards / bank accounts.
5. Helping prevent crime by cutting down on fake travel documentation and fake credit cards / bank accounts.
6. Helping trace wayward parents for the CSA to reduce state payments.
7. Speeding up immigration resources by identifying previous failed asylum seekers / overstayed visas, etc.
8. Helping the countless millions who don't currently have Id prove their identity when opening bank accounts etc.
9. Help reduce money laundering by having all bank accounts verifiable to an identity.
10. Cutting down on health tourists that shouldn't be draining our NHS
11. National fingerprint database for crime prevention ( :D)

1. Fake passport from any EU country negates this.
2. Fake ID cards will be common place and unless access to the database is granted to all commercial organisations ID cards won't help one tiny bit.
3. Fake ID cards will be common place and unless access to the database is granted to all government departments with low level staff having sensitive access ID cards won't help one tiny bit.
4. Yes assuming the cards have foolproof identifiers and we discussed the impracticality of that a while back, biometrics aren't foolproof with a large sample size. You also assume that cards can't be faked and every copper and court admin person will have and be trustworthy with database access both of which are absurd.
5. Easy enough to get convincing fake passports and would you really want every bank and CC company to have database access? Plus no more applying online/by post, would have to be in person.
5a. As 4 and 5
6. How? Unless you had to produce and scan an ID card when buying anything as trivial as a bus ticket and the scans connected to a massive tracking database for all cards then people could disappear as easily as now.
7. You assume all entrants to the country would be forced to get a card, that would be tricky to get any foreign national to do especially anyone with an EU passport real or fake.
8. Everyone already has a Birth Certificate and NI number, plus to be issued a card you would have to prove your ID which can be faked, that's a silly assertion.
9. Banks with sensitive database access again? ID cards will be faked in massive numbers.
10. EU citizens are already entitled to medical treatment and cards can be faked, again biometrics aren't reliable.
11. Crime is commonly perpetrated by repeat offenders who've already been fingerprinted, plus of course gloves are rather cheap.

Ruprect
11th November 2008, 22:47
I think you know my arguments quite clear enough seeing as you've been at my throat about ID cards for about five months now, but to humour you I'll summarise.

1. Control borders by identifying who should be here and who shouldn't.
2. Controlling ID fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.
3. Controlling benefit fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.
4. Speeding up identification issues for the police and courts.
5. Helping prevent terrorism by cutting down on fake travel documentation and fake credit cards / bank accounts.
5. Helping prevent crime by cutting down on fake travel documentation and fake credit cards / bank accounts.
6. Helping trace wayward parents for the CSA to reduce state payments.
7. Speeding up immigration resources by identifying previous failed asylum seekers / overstayed visas, etc.
8. Helping the countless millions who don't currently have Id prove their identity when opening bank accounts etc.
9. Help reduce money laundering by having all bank accounts verifiable to an identity.
10. Cutting down on health tourists that shouldn't be draining our NHS
11. National fingerprint database for crime prevention ( :D)

You are clearly as gullible as Jacqui Smith.

Doggy Styles
11th November 2008, 22:54
You are clearly as gullible as Jacqui Smith.I think it IS Jacqui Smith.

Board Game Geek
12th November 2008, 01:56
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences...

BoredBloke
12th November 2008, 10:31
Just a couple of points from Earlier

(a) they'll be fakeable
As I said, the database is where you maintain your integrity

And we have all seen how well maintained all the government databases are. Look at the tax credits database. People wrongly paid and/or overpaid. I doubt this is holding anywhere near as much data as the ID cards one.

(b) in order to get one you need the CURRENT I.D. which proves who we are. If this isn't good enough already, how will the new card be?

We don't have a current form of I.D. we have a driving licence and a passport that are used as forms of identification. The ID card may be circumvented by a wrong 'un, but that'll only happen once due to the biometric data. When you're on it, you're on it.

How do you confirm that the person applying for the ID card is who they say they are. So a person with a stolen/faked passport applies for a card and gets one, what happens to the real peroson whose identity has been stolen?


(c) the database behind it will loose people's data, so it WONT identify correct people (see point (e))

A database does not lose data, human error causes data loss.

First of all, no system is foolproof. Systems do fail and do lose data. Also, you admit that the human element of this system can lose data - surely that is a huge flaw in the whole thing. If they can't keep our tax data secure why do you trust them with our biometric data?

(d) people will HAVE to pay for the pleasure of all this as you MUST have one (and must have the current I.D. in order to get one! )

I have no problem with that

I do. If you have not got a passport or driving license then you have to pay to get one or the other before you then have to pay for the ID card.


(e) the database behind it will be written by EDS so it'll take 10 years and £10billion for the privalge of (c) and (d)
Is that straight from the horse's mouth is it? Considering that 'writing the database' as you put it hasn't been tendered yet. Although Thales SA did win the tender to create the protoype register, but why let fact get in the way of your fantasy.

The fact remains that there are only a handful of IT companies who could be used to create this. Their track record and that of the government in terms of managing these projects is shocking.

expat
12th November 2008, 10:53
...
The fact remains that there are only a handful of IT companies who could be used to create this. Their track record and that of the government in terms of managing these projects is shocking.I remember when government departments wrote their own software. It generally did what they wanted it to do.

Incognito
12th November 2008, 12:19
1. Fake passport from any EU country negates this.
I believe part of the Schengen open borders policy is that all member states have to have introduced Biometrics into their passports. I think this was initiated by the US after 9/11. Link (http://www.edri.org/edrigram/number3.7/biometrics)

The new EU wide e-passport systems use a mechanism called 'passive authentication' to detect unauthorised changes of data on the chip. A document security object, or 'SOD', is stored in the chip, which contains between two and 16 mathematical values (check values), used to check whether the passport data has been altered. The collection of values is signed using a digital signature. The signature and the public key of the signer, used to check if the signature is correct, are also in the SOD file.

The e-passport system checks if the digital signature in the SOD has been signed using the public key in the SOD, and whether the public key is owned by a bona fide country. To do this, an International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) service called the Public Key Directory (PKD) will be used.
Link (http://www2.icao.int/en/MRTD/Pages/icaoPKD.aspx)

I believe there is a current exploit being talked about that can bypass some of these checks on an approved system, but if the exploit is confirmed then I'm sure that the software will be patched.

Anyway, Europe is going to require Biometrics for all non-EU members entering the EU.
Link (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/10/europe/union.php)

I'm not trying to say that the system is failsafe right now, it's only in its infancy, but give it 10 years and I bet it's working. The US and EU are spending billions on the technology.

2. Fake ID cards will be common place and unless access to the database is granted to all commercial organisations ID cards won't help one tiny bit.
I doubt fake ID cards will be common place. A commercial organisation doesn't require modify rights to a database to query it. Alternatively details can be faxed across to a government department for clarification if anything flags up, for example in a mortgage application.

3. Fake ID cards will be common place and unless access to the database is granted to all government departments with low level staff having sensitive access ID cards won't help one tiny bit.
You don't need to be able to write to a database to query it. I also believe that people with modify permissions to the database will be cleared.

4. Yes assuming the cards have foolproof identifiers and we discussed the impracticality of that a while back, biometrics aren't foolproof with a large sample size. You also assume that cards can't be faked and every copper and court admin person will have and be trustworthy with database access both of which are absurd.
ID cards will contain 10 fingerprints (where possible); (possibly) Iris; photo; personal details; i.e D.O.B, address, and PIN. The chances of a false positive on all points is absurd, the chances of a false negative with all that information there is also extremely slim. Again, the court admin and police officer does not need to have the ability to modify data in the database to query it.

5. Easy enough to get convincing fake passports and would you really want every bank and CC company to have database access? Plus no more applying online/by post, would have to be in person.
5a. As 4 and 5
Yes all checks will have to be done in person, that's unfortunate in this day and age, the days of trusting a signature on the back of a photo are long gone. Please see point 1 about the passports, my contention is that with Biometrics, you may be able to intercept a passport and clone it, but you won't be able to modify any of the information. Scenario:

Traditional Scam
Obtain detailed background documentation on a person
Send off for a passport application

EPassport Cloning
Bribe a postie
Research the people in the postman's area
Obtain passport letters, brute force attack the RFID chip
Construct a replica passport with a cloned ID chip
Find someone who looks similar to the passport user to use the passport

6. How? Unless you had to produce and scan an ID card when buying anything as trivial as a bus ticket and the scans connected to a massive tracking database for all cards then people could disappear as easily as now.
Last known address, benefit office, driving licence details, car insured, mortgage application etc. It gives you a starting point to conduct more enquires

7. You assume all entrants to the country would be forced to get a card, that would be tricky to get any foreign national to do especially anyone with an EU passport real or fake.
See point 1

8. Everyone already has a Birth Certificate and NI number, plus to be issued a card you would have to prove your ID which can be faked, that's a silly assertion.
Neither of which are means of photographic identification. I'm glad you brought up the NI though, we're all already on a National Identity register, all they're proposing to do is add some more details to it.

9. Banks with sensitive database access again? ID cards will be faked in massive numbers.
See point 2.

10. EU citizens are already entitled to medical treatment and cards can be faked, again biometrics aren't reliable.
See point 1

11. Crime is commonly perpetrated by repeat offenders who've already been fingerprinted, plus of course gloves are rather cheap.
I threw that in to really put the cat amongst the pigeons, especially when the DNA database is linked up to the register as well. :D

Bob Dalek
12th November 2008, 12:26
ID cards? What a hoot! It's as easy to get across an island's borders as falling off a very slippery log. Boats - our nemesis!

Incognito
12th November 2008, 23:18
ID cards? What a hoot! It's as easy to get across an island's borders as falling off a very slippery log. Boats - our nemesis!

I thought Doctor Who was your nemesis?

TykeMerc
13th November 2008, 01:05
Incognito I didn't make any reference to needing write access to the database, but I don't see why commercial or government organisations should have read access to MY details let alone write access. Write access has nothing to do with the points I raised anyway.

I've got a passport that was issued recently and it has NO biometric data, I doubt that any EU citizen has a biometric passport so again your argument is meaningless at the least for multiple years.
Passports are only read on entry, there's nothing to stop someone using a real one to enter then a forged EU one after that to get one of your infallible ID cards.

False positives and negatives with biometrics are far more commonplace than you realise or will admit, since they're talking about the biometrics being collected at Post Offices the kit will be crude at best and far from perfectly calibrated or operated.

The tracking details you mention are already available and ineffective.

The NI register is known to be chock full of errors, you want that pile of junk to have actual power over everyones life?

I'm still completely unconvinced by your arguments that the ID card scheme will be anything other than a useless expensive cluster ***** white elephant.

Doggy Styles
13th November 2008, 11:34
ID cards sound like a great idea. Like subprime mortgage bonds, communism, and a warmer planet to live on.

Purple Dalek
13th November 2008, 12:02
15000 people have been miss-identified as pedos to potential employers.

Isn't a central government run database wonderful.

The opportunities to really **** someones life up are immense.

So, all these people that want id-cards: you first! You're just the sort of people who truely deserve it.

Bob Dalek
13th November 2008, 12:03
There may be a silver lining to biometric identity failures: I may be mistaken for Dim Prawn and instantly become a millionaire. Boomed, I tell ya!

Incognito
13th November 2008, 18:43
Incognito I didn't make any reference to needing write access to the database, but I don't see why commercial or government organisations should have read access to MY details let alone write access. Write access has nothing to do with the points I raised anyway.

I've got a passport that was issued recently and it has NO biometric data, I doubt that any EU citizen has a biometric passport so again your argument is meaningless at the least for multiple years.
Passports are only read on entry, there's nothing to stop someone using a real one to enter then a forged EU one after that to get one of your infallible ID cards.

False positives and negatives with biometrics are far more commonplace than you realise or will admit, since they're talking about the biometrics being collected at Post Offices the kit will be crude at best and far from perfectly calibrated or operated.

The tracking details you mention are already available and ineffective.

The NI register is known to be chock full of errors, you want that pile of junk to have actual power over everyones life?

I'm still completely unconvinced by your arguments that the ID card scheme will be anything other than a useless expensive cluster flip white elephant.


You mentioned how easy it would be to fake ID cards because commercial organisations would have access to the database. A fake ID card isn't much use without a database entry to correlate it against and you can't do that if you can't write to the database. Commercial organisations can get far more information about you from the Credit Reference Agencies. These organisations should only be querying the database on instigation of an action by you, i.e. a mortgage application.

Biometric passports were introduced in 2006, I thought they were compulsory unless you were working for one of 'the agencies'. I'm not going to call you a liar if you insist you've got one. The ID card isn't meant to go live for voluntarily enrolment until 2012. Give them 4 years to bed it in and I'm guessing it won't become compulsory until 2016. That's 10 years since the introduction of Biometric passports and I think the expiry of a passport is 10 years (could be mistaken on that) so the assumption is that if you have a passport by the time it's compulsory, it'll be Biometric.

They're talking about contracting in an outside firm, i.e. group four or similar to collect the data at convenient locations nationwide. That would involve setting up collection centres at places like Bluewater, etc. That does not mean sticking a crappy little scanner in the corner of a post office and having some old woman take your Biometrics. This will be the same kit they use to capture your Biometrics at a passport office, just mobile.

I understand you're not convinced, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm putting across my arguments; you're intelligent enough to make your own observations. The whole reason I posted this was because PB said I was refusing to offer any justifications. (His words)

TykeMerc
13th November 2008, 20:01
You mentioned how easy it would be to fake ID cards because commercial organisations would have access to the database. A fake ID card isn't much use without a database entry to correlate it against and you can't do that if you can't write to the database. Commercial organisations can get far more information about you from the Credit Reference Agencies. These organisations should only be querying the database on instigation of an action by you, i.e. a mortgage application.

Biometric passports were introduced in 2006, I thought they were compulsory unless you were working for one of 'the agencies'. I'm not going to call you a liar if you insist you've got one. The ID card isn't meant to go live for voluntarily enrolment until 2012. Give them 4 years to bed it in and I'm guessing it won't become compulsory until 2016. That's 10 years since the introduction of Biometric passports and I think the expiry of a passport is 10 years (could be mistaken on that) so the assumption is that if you have a passport by the time it's compulsory, it'll be Biometric.

They're talking about contracting in an outside firm, i.e. group four or similar to collect the data at convenient locations nationwide. That would involve setting up collection centres at places like Bluewater, etc. That does not mean sticking a crappy little scanner in the corner of a post office and having some old woman take your Biometrics. This will be the same kit they use to capture your Biometrics at a passport office, just mobile.

I understand you're not convinced, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm putting across my arguments; you're intelligent enough to make your own observations. The whole reason I posted this was because PB said I was refusing to offer any justifications. (His words)


ID cards will be able to be faked (minus the back end database entries) so that they stand up to anything other than a machine read very easily and unless machine readers are incredibly common that's all they will need to do.
As soon as they're issued and a result stolen in any numbers then the data will be cloned onto fake picture cards and they will only be discovered by a full biometrics scan so that's not going to protect the identities of people who have their cards stolen or prevent businesses being ripped off by false ID's.

I don't believe for one second that the likes of Group 4 would hire good quality trustworthy staff to operate these scanners you say will be provided at "convenient locations", they will get the cheapest plebs they can get away with to operate the gear. As I pointed out previously biometric scanners are expensive, fiddly and need to be calibrated frequently even when the people being scanned have plenty of time on their hands which they won't. I doubt many people will be too keen on giving their detailed info including biometrics over to some gimp in a shopping centre, I certainly won't.

My current Passport was issued at the end of Nov 2007, no biometrics, it has a chip and antenna built in so it's machine readable, but certainly no biometric data.

My other concern which you didn't address is that low grade staff (Government and commercial) will have to have READ access to this colossally sensitive database so endangering both my ID and my privacy, both of which I hold very dear.

Incognito
13th November 2008, 21:54
ID cards will be able to be faked (minus the back end database entries) so that they stand up to anything other than a machine read very easily and unless machine readers are incredibly common that's all they will need to do.
As soon as they're issued and a result stolen in any numbers then the data will be cloned onto fake picture cards and they will only be discovered by a full biometrics scan so that's not going to protect the identities of people who have their cards stolen or prevent businesses being ripped off by false ID's.

I don't believe for one second that the likes of Group 4 would hire good quality trustworthy staff to operate these scanners you say will be provided at "convenient locations", they will get the cheapest plebs they can get away with to operate the gear. As I pointed out previously biometric scanners are expensive, fiddly and need to be calibrated frequently even when the people being scanned have plenty of time on their hands which they won't. I doubt many people will be too keen on giving their detailed info including biometrics over to some gimp in a shopping centre, I certainly won't.

My current Passport was issued at the end of Nov 2007, no biometrics, it has a chip and antenna built in so it's machine readable, but certainly no biometric data.

My other concern which you didn't address is that low grade staff (Government and commercial) will have to have READ access to this colossally sensitive database so endangering both my ID and my privacy, both of which I hold very dear.


We're going round in circles here. I agree with you a fake ID card could be created and used to identify yourself whilst cashing a cheque or something, but I believe there will be mechanisms in place to correlate the identity of the holder for something like a mortgage. You would have to balance the time and effort to confirm an entity against the cost and potential fraud saving. We all know banks write off obscene amounts of small scale frauds at the moment as it isn't cost effective to investigate them.

That's a bit insulting to people who work for Group4. They currently provide staff for court service, security guards for transporting money, transporting prisoners, etc. I bet they've had more background checks than 3/4's of the people who post on here. It's very condescending of you to link low pay to untrustworthiness. I'm sure the IPS would want an overseer role if they did outsource.

Passport - I still have an old one, so I don't know unless it is a Biometric passport and your Biometrics get registered and recorded on the passport at Heathrow if you enrol for the fasttrack Iris thing, I don't know so can't comment. Maybe that will be compulsory soon.

I did address your concern. If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics). Don’t forget, you can filter views on Databases so certain roles are limited to what they can view. As for government staff, they've got access to it all already mate, they just have to request it from the separate agencies i.e HMRC, CSA, DVLA, etc.

Peoplesoft bloke
13th November 2008, 22:08
IPS dismisses 14 staff for data-protection breaches
The dismissals at the Identity and Passport Service, which is developing the National Identity Register, occurred over a three-year period.

Of 16 cases where data-protection regulations were breached, all but one involved members of staff who had legitimate access to the Passport Application Support System database, and who used this for unauthorised checks not related to their duties.

Link (http://newsletters.zdnetuk.cneteu.net/t/419119/2344252/488470/0/)


If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics).
Incorrect (ignoring the confusing double negative and assuming you meant "can") - Experian doesn't know your address if you have a valid reason for keeping it secret - witness protection, people avoiding violent partners, etc. This data will be in the NIR.

By the way, the term "biometrics" is being banded about freely. It's worth noting that current "biometric" passports only contain the biometric agreed by ICAO (and the US) which is a digital version of the photo stored on the passport chip.

Liars like David Blunkett are trying to pretend that "biometrics" means we must all have our fingerprints stored in a database or not travel - that is just nonsense.

Peoplesoft bloke
13th November 2008, 22:15
We all know banks write off obscene amounts of small scale frauds at the moment as it isn't cost effective to investigate them.



Do we? There's a lot of cardholder-not-present Credit Card fraud out there (which government figures class as ID theft even though it's nothing of the kind) - something which ID cards will do zero to address.

Incognito
13th November 2008, 22:24
IPS dismisses 14 staff for data-protection breaches
The dismissals at the Identity and Passport Service, which is developing the National Identity Register, occurred over a three-year period.

Of 16 cases where data-protection regulations were breached, all but one involved members of staff who had legitimate access to the Passport Application Support System database, and who used this for unauthorised checks not related to their duties.

Link (http://newsletters.zdnetuk.cneteu.net/t/419119/2344252/488470/0/)


Incorrect (ignoring the confusing double negative and assuming you meant "can") - Experian doesn't know your address if you have a valid reason for keeping it secret - witness protection, people avoiding violent partners, etc. This data will be in the NIR.

By the way, the term "biometrics" is being banded about freely. It's worth noting that current "biometric" passports only contain the biometric agreed by ICAO (and the US) which is a digital version of the photo stored on the passport chip.

Liars like David Blunkett are trying to pretend that "biometrics" means we must all have our fingerprints stored in a database or not travel - that is just nonsense.

I would be more concerned if you'd posted a link stating that the IPS has never found a case of a member of staff abusing their access rights in the last three years. It is the sad truth that the human is the weakest link in the security here. What you are forgetting though, is that this is not a whole lot of new information that is being collected about you, this is simply collating the information into a central database and linking it to a identifier. If someone really wanted information on you, they can get it.

The ICAO is still in the early stages. As I expressed earlier, I believe that ID cards won't be compulsory until 2016, that gives them 8 years to agree on a standard and implement it and if they do decide to enforce certain Biometrics, then they'll most probably collect it from you as you're leaving the country, otherwise you don't go.

As for your comment about David Blunkett, have you been to the US on holiday lately? Link (http://www.eturbonews.com/1891/more-extensive-tourist-fingerprinting-comes-u)

You're more than welcome to refuse to give them your prints, they just escort you to the plane heading straight back home with a nice great big red 'entry refused' stamp in your passport.

Incognito
13th November 2008, 22:28
Do we? There's a lot of cardholder-not-present Credit Card fraud out there (which government figures class as ID theft even though it's nothing of the kind) - something which ID cards will do zero to address.

I never said it would, you've misquoted me. As I said you'll find that commercial organisations will have to balance the time and effort to confirm an entity against the cost and potential fraud saving. I was comparing a payday cheque cashing organisation having the resources to confirm an ID card is genuine when someone cashes a £50 cheque against someone applying for a £400,000 mortgage.

Peoplesoft bloke
13th November 2008, 22:34
......What you are forgetting though, is that this is not a whole lot of new information that is being collected about you, this is simply collating the information into a central database and linking it to a identifier. If someone really wanted information on you, they can get it.

You are being as slippery as the politicians - you claimed that it's the same data that is available from Experian - it isn't. If it was, I wonder what 16 staff at the ID and Passport service were doing risking their jobs getting data they could've got for a few quid?

.
As for your comment about David Blunkett, have you been to the US on holiday lately? Link (http://www.eturbonews.com/1891/more-extensive-tourist-fingerprinting-comes-u)

You're more than welcome to refuse to give them your prints, they just escort you to the plane heading straight back home with a nice great big red 'entry refused' stamp in your passport.
Now you're missing the point - of course I'm well aware of what the US is doing but they aren't demanding all the fingerprints of their own citizens - only those of foreign visitors. Thus I can choose not to go there.

Frankly I think we should take the prints of all US visitors if only to show what a stupid and futile excercise it is. Anecdotally, I am aware of a guy from New Zealand who was detained at LA in transit as there was a false match of his prints.

Peoplesoft bloke
13th November 2008, 22:35
I never said it would, you've misquoted me.

Sorry - where did I misquote you again?

Incognito
13th November 2008, 23:08
You are being as slippery as the politicians - you claimed that it's the same data that is available from Experian - it isn't. If it was, I wonder what 16 staff at the ID and Passport service were doing risking their jobs getting data they could've got for a few quid?


You're getting personal again, this is why I don't discuss it with you, you really do get yourself worked up about it.

I mentioned Experian when comparing a commercial company having access to the database and mentioned that you could limit access so that a commercial company could only view what the CRA's hold, ie. D.O.B, address history, linked persons. The difference being they have a picture of you to compare against as well.

Again you're taking what I say and putting your twist on it, I never compared Experian with any government body. Read my posts again, I've quoted it below and colour coded it so you can differentiate between commercial and government:


I did address your concern. If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics). Don’t forget, you can filter views on Databases so certain roles are limited to what they can view. As for government staff, they've got access to it all already mate, they just have to request it from the separate agencies i.e HMRC, CSA, DVLA, etc.

Peoplesoft bloke
13th November 2008, 23:35
:smile
You're getting personal again, this is why I don't discuss it with you, you really do get yourself worked up about it.

I mentioned Experian when comparing a commercial company having access to the database and mentioned that you could limit access so that a commercial company could only view what the CRA's hold, ie. D.O.B, address history, linked persons. The difference being they have a picture of you to compare against as well.

Again you're taking what I say and putting your twist on it, I never compared Experian with any government body. Read my posts again, I've quoted it below and colour coded it so you can differentiate between commercial and government:

Sorry - on this point you are right - I had missed the sublety of that point. I don't mean to be personal, but I do feel you are taking (and repeating) a lot of Home Office propoganda at face value.

TykeMerc
14th November 2008, 00:00
Originally Posted by Incognito
I did address your concern. If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics). Don’t forget, you can filter views on Databases so certain roles are limited to what they can view. As for government staff, they've got access to it all already mate, they just have to request it from the separate agencies i.e HMRC, CSA, DVLA, etc.


If you think for one second that a Government ID card database won't be extended to hold far far far more than is currently available from Experian which a commercial company must have your consent to consult then you're in deluded.
As you admitted a Government department has to apply to each agency with good reason to grab those details, with a catch all database those checks and balances will be gone, that amounts to a gigantic amount of power which can be misused.

I still can't see a single benefit and a huge number of drawbacks to us in Britain from having the ID card or database and your arguments have still not presented even a wobbly let alone rock solid Business Case for having them.

Incognito
14th November 2008, 12:23
Cheers PB.

I don't regurgitate the New Labour stuff; I just think that the idea of an ID card is good. Do I think they'll implement it right the first time? No, but hey ho I believe they'll get it there eventually. We'll never convince each other of our stances because you abhor the idea of an ID card; I'm totally the opposite and am willing to go through the pain of having it implemented.

TM, I don't doubt for one minute that more information will be added to the database when it's stable and I believe that if we get it running and working then a DNA profile will certainly be added to it, that is most probably decades away though. Your analogy of every government agency having access to all that information from day 1 is misguided, agencies will still have to apply to the IPS for specific data on an entity with justification as to why, all it means is that they can go to 1 point of contact instead of 5.

Anyway, enough of this serious chat, I want to get back to posting about AtW and Churchill making daisy chains.

Bob Dalek
14th November 2008, 13:29
Cheers PB.

I don't regurgitate the New Labour stuff; I just think that the idea of an ID card is good. Do I think they'll implement it right the first time? No, but hey ho I believe they'll get it there eventually. We'll never convince each other of our stances because you abhor the idea of an ID card; I'm totally the opposite and am willing to go through the pain of having it implemented.

TM, I don't doubt for one minute that more information will be added to the database when it's stable and I believe that if we get it running and working then a DNA profile will certainly be added to it, that is most probably decades away though. Your analogy of every government agency having access to all that information from day 1 is misguided, agencies will still have to apply to the IPS for specific data on an entity with justification as to why, all it means is that they can go to 1 point of contact instead of 5.

Anyway, enough of this serious chat, I want to get back to posting about AtW and Churchill making daisy chains.


:spel that the entire nation's most personal data will be sold on e-Bay within the week.

Ruprect
21st November 2008, 17:04
All your data are belong to us:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7742619.stm

Fines of up to a grand if you get married, plus transexuals get taxed twice. You couldn't make it up.

SallyAnne
21st November 2008, 19:20
Incognito - I think you should look into: -

CAPS - Card And Payment System (government project of, oh 20 years, with the objectives of "Controlling benefit fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.")

Also, while you're at it, look into the stats of how many calls NICO get every single day regarding incorrect or missing data.

Also, you might want to look into the first failed NIRS project, and the problems they are STILL experiencing with NIRS2.

If it wasn't Friday night I would sit here and put more than a seconds thought into this. 15 years working on government IT projects does not make me a fantasist in this area.

EternalOptimist
21st November 2008, 19:23
Incognito - I think you should look into: -

CAPS - Card And Payment System (government project of, oh 20 years, with the objectives of "Controlling benefit fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.")

Also, while you're at it, look into the stats of how many calls NICO get every single day regarding incorrect or missing data.

Also, you might want to look into the first failed NIRS project, and the problems they are STILL experiencing with NIRS2.

If it wasn't Friday night I would sit here and put more than a seconds thought into this. 15 years working on government IT projects does not make me a fantasist in this area.

Sally, good post but it raises a very important question..
what area ARE you a fantasist in?





:rolleyes:

Paddy
22nd November 2008, 08:42
You will be fined if your information on your ID card is not correct or up to date. This will include a list of ALL addresses that you reside or stay regularly. All properties that you own including those abroad. Any partner living with you.

Shadow home secretary Dominic Grieve, for the Conservatives, said the consultation document showed the ID scheme is "truly the worst of all worlds - expensive, intrusive and unworkable".

"At a time of economic hardship, the public will be dismayed that the government plans to fine innocent people for inaccuracies on the government's own database, using summary powers vested in the home secretary.

"The home secretary has confirmed the worst element of the scheme - a single, mammoth and highly vulnerable database exposing masses of our personal details to criminal hackers.

"Worse still, she has magnified the scope for fraud by allowing spot fines to be issued by email."

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "It is becoming clear how draconian the punishments will be for those that want no part in the government's illiberal and unnecessary identity database.

"Ministers are already admitting that people will be forced to pay more for the dubious privilege of an ID card than they originally promised.

"The government should do us all a favour and scrap this laminated poll tax, instead of making us all pay through the nose for it."

Doggy Styles
22nd November 2008, 08:49
Reading through this thread it seems the argument for ID cards has been well and truly lost.

I can't find any good reason for them, but I've found several good reasons against.

But will we get them anyway? :eek

TimberWolf
22nd November 2008, 09:59
IMO, if the Conservatives tried to implement something like ID cards, and many other policies Labour have implemented over the years (e.g. mass immigration) there would have been riots on the streets.