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How on earth do we get out of this economic meltdown mess?

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    How on earth do we get out of this economic meltdown mess?

    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle5734058.ece

    The sunshine and balmy temperatures of Rome this weekend would have seemed like welcome respite for Alistair Darling from the wintry weather and grim economic tidings back home.

    The chancellor had travelled to the Italian capital for a meeting of finance ministers from the Group of Seven leading economies, which was essentially a preparatory session for the larger Group of 20 gathering in London in April.

    However, instead of looking forward to discussions about the G20 agenda, Darling found himself exposed to chill winds from Britain. Disaster had struck banking yet again.

    On Friday the Lloyds Banking Group revealed that HBOS, which it acquired in an emergency takeover during last autumn’s banking panic, had lost more than £10 billion last year, twice the worst forecasts from City analysts and more than wiping out Lloyds’ £1.3 billion profit.

    For Darling the embarrassment came in the government’s use of £17 billion to prop up the two banks and its ownership of 43% of the enlarged group. With the share price tumbling by about a third on Friday, that stake was now worth £8.3 billion less. Questions were already being asked about whether the shotgun merger, brokered by Gordon Brown himself, was really in the public interest.

    The news came at a terrible time. The week had been dominated by the apologies of some leading bankers to a committee of MPs for their role in causing the meltdown and then by the suggestion from Mervyn King, governor of the Bank of England, that Britain is in a “deep” recession.

    Only six months ago the Bank was saying the economy would have a mild downturn and no more. Now it expects a slide of 4% in gross domestic product between the middle of last year and this summer and warns that the fall could be even worse – to 6%.

    If the Bank is right in its forecast, 2009 will be the worst year for the economy since the aftermath of the second world war. If its gloomiest predictions come true, this year’s downturn will resemble that of 1931 when Britain succumbed to the Great Depression.

    Darling and King, who accompanied him to the meeting, were not the only people in Rome being assailed with bad news. Timothy Geithner, Barack Obama’s Treasury secretary, was supposed to be bringing cheer from the United States. Instead his banking rescue package, which he had announced on Tuesday, had fallen flat. The reaction had been one of huge disappointment.

    Wall Street plunged 382 points, losing almost 5% of its value in response to what critics described as a “half-baked” set of proposals.

    Not only that but the Obama administration’s $787 billion (£545 billion) fiscal stimulus of government spending and tax cuts intended to kick-start the economy, which was finally approved by Congress on Friday night, was derided in the United States as poorly targeted and too slow-acting to make a difference.

    Even Giulio Tremonti, the Italian finance minister and host of yesterday’s meeting, added his voice to the criticism. “If the problem is an excess of debt, the cure is not adding more debt, whether that debt is private or public,” he said.

    Tremonti, however, had problems closer to home. In a set of figures described by analysts as a “Friday the 13th horror”, the eurozone economy was shown to have shrunk by 1.5% in the final three months of last year, with Italy sliding by 1.8% and Germany by 2.1%.

    King’s “deep” recession is engulfing the world. Bankers are in the dock and the blame game is in full swing. That is important. But a more relevant question for now is: how do we steer the economy out of the mess the banking crisis created? What options are there that have not already been tried?

    Fundamental to recovery is the restoration of the banking system to health and getting money flowing to the wider economy again.

    Questioned on Friday over what he was going to do about Lloyds, Darling was typically lawyerly. He said that to help banks rid themselves of the bad assets that have laid them low, there were a “range of options that we will be deploying, a range of levers that can be pulled to help all banks”. But he twice refused to rule out an option that is growing in popularity among economists: the nationalisation of banks.

    Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrat shadow chancellor and an economist by profession, said that Lloyds, dragged down by the “financial disaster” of HBOS, was on a path that would lead “inevitably to nationalisation”.

    Nouriel Roubini, the maverick economist who has made his name during the credit crunch, says the banking system’s losses are likely to reach $3.6 trillion, about half of them borne by American banks, a far cry from the initial estimates of $200 billion. Propping up failed banks would be ineffective and encouraging troubled banks to merge was “like having two drunks trying to help each other to stand up”.

    “The nationalisation approach was successfully taken by Sweden [in the early 1990s] while the current US and UK approach may end up looking like the zombie banks of Japan that were never properly restructured and ended up perpetuating the credit crunch and the credit freeze,” said Roubini.

    The United States and Britain faced the risk of years of depression, like Japan’s “lost decade” of the 1990s, he warned, which was caused by a refusal to act decisively to cure the banks of their problems.

    Indeed, last year, before the banking crisis had emerged in full, a group of MPs met Japanese officials who told them that first Britain would have to nationalise some banks and then the entire banking system to fend off disaster.

    Nationalisation has its problems, though. The public purse would have to take on all the debts of the banks and it is far easier eventually to privatise them if they are not wholly state-owned. In the United States, where most of the problems lie, there is also a visceral antipathy towards the idea. Not only are there huge numbers of regional banks that might need rescuing, making it a practical nightmare, but it is also seen by many as “creeping socialism”.

    While bank nationalisation is probably the “nuclear option”, there are other ideas that could be an improvement on what governments are doing.

    “A lot of the focus is on the ‘bad bank’ idea [where a government siphons off toxic assets], but another way would be for the government to stimulate new entry into the banking system,” said Martin Weale, director of Britain’s National Institute of Economic and Social Research.

    “If Tesco wanted to come in and enter the banking system by setting up a new bank, it should be encouraged to do so.”

    The “new bank” idea has plenty of supporters, particularly in the United States. Even with government guarantees, the old banks will be encumbered with toxic debt for years to come and unable to provide an adequate supply of credit for the economy.

    Paul Romer, a professor at Stanford University and one of the world’s leading experts on economic growth, says that instead of propping up old banks, governments should instead put taxpayers’ money into new ones.

    “If the government starts as a shareholder in new, healthy banks that eventually end up entirely in the hands of the private sector, the political risks start small and diminish,” he said. “If instead the government combines open-ended and opaque financial support for troubled banks with promises of tight supervision and punishment for bad behaviour, the risks are large and grow.”

    #2
    The new bank idea, which is backed by Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel prize economist, among others, is not without problems. Banks need bankers to run them and they also need networks of branch offices and customer contacts.

    With so many bad debts hanging over the existing banks like a poisonous cloud, governments could not just wash their hands of them. The collapse of Lehman Brothers and its catastrophic impact on global markets showed how deep the poison reaches.

    That is why experts say it will be necessary to act, not just on the banking problem but also on its causes. In the United States there is no sign of an end to the housing collapse, which has seen prices slide by nearly a fifth, and in some areas by a third, and which sparked the global downturn.

    The Federal Reserve, America’s central bank, has stepped in to drive down mortgage rates to zero. Some think it should go further. Ben Bernanke, the Fed chairman, has spoken in the past of a “helicopter drop” of money to pull the economy out of recession.

    Time, the US news magazine, has proposed that it come in the form of a gift to every household equivalent to 30% of the value of their mortgage. Cutting home loans in this way would provide a direct boost to spending and reduce the likelihood of default, the big factor weighing on the banks. It would cost a lot to implement, but that might seem a good investment if it stopped mortgage defaults.

    In Britain, Fathom, an economic consultancy, says that instead of buying assets from the banks, the government should spend £50 billion buying houses from homeowners under threat of repossession.

    Danny Gabay, a director of the firm, predicts that without government action there will be 375,000 repossessions in this recession, compared with 225,000 in the early 1990s. Under the Fathom plan the government would buy properties from owners facing repossession, at 10% to 20% below market value – above the 37% discount at auctions – and rent them back to the owners.

    “What we’re trying to do is stop repossessions,” he said. “All these rescues tackle the symptoms, not the cause. We need to target the underlying asset, housing.”

    With the “lever” of interest rates at 1%, the lowest in history, King last week prepared the ground for a programme of “quantitative easing”, the central bankers’ term for printing money. This is not as exciting or – for those who look to the hyperinflation in Zimbabwe– as worrying as it seems.

    The Bank would not distribute free money but would instead buy up corporate bonds and other financial instruments so as to inject capital into the system. King last week signalled that this is likely to start next month.

    He also added that the Bank is faced with a “paradox of policy” in that it is trying to make people spend, which is the opposite of the saving culture it would normally encourage.

    In such confusing times the one reassuring message that King was able to offer was that, like most economists, he expects things to get better towards the end of this year.

    The measures that are already in place were not quick fixes and their effect would take time to trickle through to consumers and businesses.

    King pointed to the record low interest rates, the boost that the economy should get from a lower pound, the sharp fall in oil prices and the government’s five-point plan for getting the banks lending again.

    They would work in the end, he insisted, and the economy would return to growth. For his sake, and of the government and the banks, that cannot come soon enough.

    Comment


      #3
      It'll be a doddle sorting that lot out if you look what Europe has coming up according to your man Ambrose in The Telegraph. He's been right so far !

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-meltdown.html

      Comment


        #4
        In such confusing times the one reassuring message that King was able to offer was that, like most economists, he expects things to get better towards the end of this year.
        We keep hearing this, together with that Beckett woman's advice to buy houses (as the turning point will occur quicker than most realise). I personally will be staggered if we come so quickly out of such a deep recession. What do others think?
        Speaking gibberish on internet talkboards since last Michaelmas. Plus here on Twitter

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by zeitghost
          Anyone any good at growing funny moustaches?
          AtW - the world calls for you.
          How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

          Follow me on Twitter - LinkedIn Profile - The HAB blog - New Blog: Mad Cameron
          Xeno points: +5 - Asperger rating: 36 - Paranoid Schizophrenic rating: 44%

          "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to high office" - Aesop

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by rootsnall View Post
            It'll be a doddle sorting that lot out if you look what Europe has coming up according to your man Ambrose in The Telegraph. He's been right so far !

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-meltdown.html
            Crikey, not Eastern Europe again. All this international debt and obligations is the modern day version of the mutual support treaties that made nations mobilize one after the other like dominoes prior to WW1.

            In other words one Polish bank going down the pan is the banking equivalent of one guy being shot by a Serbian nationalist snowballing into a World War!

            edit: Also, British politicians had better make the most of this G7 meeting, because the way the UK economy is slipping way down the rankings they won't be going to many more...
            Last edited by OwlHoot; 15 February 2009, 10:15.
            Work in the public sector? Read the IR35 FAQ here

            Comment


              #7
              We need a government that will stop the 'something for nothing' society where certain sectors do not want to contribute but want to take a share of welfare totally disproportionate to their contribution.

              The next government has to reduce public spending drastically and encourage the feckless to work, and mend broken Britain..

              Some measures that may help are:


              Stop gold-plated public sector pensions

              Stop child allowance after the first two children

              Stop giving housing to single mothers.. put them in hostels instead where there is child care and get them into work.

              Benefits to be paid in vouchers or in direct payments for necessities(mortgage, rent etc) so that they cannot be spent on booze, cigarettes etc, and to shame the feckless into finding work and to become self-reliant.

              Introduce tax relief incentives to encourage marriage and thus family stability.

              If kids are having underage sex with parents' knowledge and consent, fine the parents for aiding and abetting a serious crime. Abortions or adoption should be mandatory for people that do not have the means to support their kids.

              I could go on..........

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Cyberman View Post
                ...
                If kids are having underage sex with parents' knowledge and consent, fine the parents for aiding and abetting a serious crime.
                Why on Earth is sex between two underaged people a "serious crime"? I guess being pretty right wing myself and agreeing with some of your principles has blinded me to what others have been saying here for ages, namely that you really are a prize pillock.

                Abortions or adoption should be mandatory for people that do not have the means to support their kids.
                That is possibly the stupidest idea ever seriously (I presume) expressed on this board. Practically every young couple doesn't start out with the means to support their kids, and even if they do then who's to say they'll maintain the ability?

                Having kids is the best incentive for most to buckle down and *make* the means to go on supporting them, and even dole parents are doing society a favour by raising kids, assuming they aren't completely disfunctional.

                Your lunatic idea would simply cause the population to decline dramatically, and impoverish the country.
                Work in the public sector? Read the IR35 FAQ here

                Comment


                  #9
                  Nothing will change until banks become banks again. As long as they can make more money being a casino, gambling on short term stocks, shares and dodgy bonds the ecconomy will remain bad.

                  WW2 did not get the UK out of recession in fact it cost the UK, it took the UK 40 years to get out of the debt for WW2. It will take the UK 80 years to get out of debt caused by the bankers.
                  "A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices," George Orwell

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Paddy View Post
                    Nothing will change until banks become banks again. As long as they can make more money being a casino, gambling on short term stocks, shares and dodgy bonds the ecconomy will remain bad.

                    WW2 did not get the UK out of recession in fact it cost the UK, it took the UK 40 years to get out of the debt for WW2. It will take the UK 80 years to get out of debt caused by the bankers.
                    But WW2 did get the world out of recession : the uk has been going downhill for the last 100 years.

                    Comment

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