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NetwkSupport
18th February 2009, 09:07
Would it be such a bad thing?

Imagine a world like in the H G Wells book A Modern Utopia:


Herbert George Wells (1866 - 1946) was an English novelist, journalist, sociologist and historian.

Wells' Modern Utopia was first published in 1905. It set the scene for many modern, scientific utopias and dystopias. The story is set on a planet very like earth. The Utopian Planet differs from earth in that the inhabitants have created a perfect society. Two men, the narrator and his colleague (a botanist), visit this parallel planet and argue over its merits and defects.

Utopia is a world in which the problems of humanity have been solved. People live healthy, happy lives in cities where all human needs are met. Science and technology frees people from toil and enables them to enjoy security and innovation.

Wells' utopia is neither democratic nor equal. He draws on the utopias of Plato, More, and Bacon. He advocates a scientific kind of socialism, rooted in the idea that the world is orderly, knowable and controllable.

The state is ruled by the Samurai. Like Plato's Guardians, the Samurai are a moral and spiritual ruling class. They lead an ascetic (disciplined and morally strict) life, governed by the Rule. The Samurai carry out their government duties but their main business is the development of science and philosophy. Anybody that proves themselves to be able to follow the Rule is allowed to become one of the Samuari.
:smokin

oracleslave
18th February 2009, 09:11
Utopia is a world in which the problems of humanity have been solved. People live healthy, happy lives in cities where all human needs are met. Science and technology frees people from toil and enables them to enjoy security and innovation.

Wells' utopia is neither democratic nor equal. He draws on the utopias of Plato, More, and Bacon. He advocates a scientific kind of socialism, rooted in the idea that the world is orderly, knowable and controllable.



It sounds like an utterly boring place to live.

Rookie
18th February 2009, 09:15
Where would I spend all of my money?

London75
18th February 2009, 09:22
The problem with Utopian theories is the assumption that everyone wants a Utopia.

Some people have a desire to oppress, harm, exploit. The sooner the hippies get used to that the better we'll all be.

expat
18th February 2009, 09:31
Would it be such a bad thing?

Imagine a world like in the H G Wells book A Modern Utopia:
Switzerland?

Rookie
18th February 2009, 09:33
Switzerland?

Skiing, watches, and Toblerone? Great. I'm in.

expat
18th February 2009, 09:36
The problem with Utopian theories is the assumption that everyone wants a Utopia.

Some people have a desire to oppress, harm, exploit. The sooner the hippies get used to that the better we'll all be.That's true. And even in democracies, those are often the people who rise to power, indeed the people who have already done so.

London75
18th February 2009, 09:41
And in fact, we are all on this forum actively working against a Utopian society in working for more money than we really need at the expense of others.

Whether, as in my case, it means the money that goes to me should be going into the pension funds of the permies that have just been told they are no longer getting final salary pensions or to the policy holders of this insurance company in reduced premiums improving their quality of life.

There should be no socialist on these forums, socialist contractor is an oxymoron.

Now why do I equate Utopia with Socialism, maybe I have problems!

NetwkSupport
18th February 2009, 09:41
Actually that brings me to another point.

If anyone has read the book Gomorrah by Roberto Saviano about the Italian Mafia it makes a rather large point at the end...

The mafia operations/activities are not a reconised as crimes in the UK.....Aberdeen is a hotbed of Mafia infiltration....anyone else wondering how far their reach goes in the UK now...goevernment level ? :alien

Moscow Mule
18th February 2009, 09:47
Actually that brings me to another point.

If anyone has read the book Gomorrah by Roberto Saviano about the Italian Mafia it makes a rather large point at the end...

The mafia operations/activities are not a reconised as crimes in the UK.....Aberdeen is a hotbed of Mafia infiltration....anyone else wondering how far their reach goes in the UK now...goevernment level ? :alien

Money laundering, demanding money with menaces and murder are not recognised as crimes on the UK? Bring it on, time for a career change.

NetwkSupport
18th February 2009, 09:47
And in fact, we are all on this forum actively working against a Utopian society in working for more money than we really need at the expense of others.

Whether, as in my case, it means the money that goes to me should be going into the pension funds of the permies that have just been told they are no longer getting final salary pensions or to the policy holders of this insurance company in reduced premiums improving their quality of life.

There should be no socialist on these forums, socialist contractor is an oxymoron.

Now why do I equate Utopia with Socialism, maybe I have problems!

I guess it could be viewed as a form of socailism.

I had an interesting chat with a Chineese man a few years ago whilst in Beijing, he lived in the UK 15 years and went home back to china because in the end he beleived that we only perceive that in this "democracy" we have freedom wheras he felt he had more freedom back in China!

expat
18th February 2009, 09:48
Money laundering, demanding money with menaces and murder are not recognised as crimes on the UK? Bring it on, time for a career change."Taxation, now there's a racket I'd like to get into"
-- Al Capone

Mich the Tester
18th February 2009, 09:52
And in fact, we are all on this forum actively working against a Utopian society in working for more money than we really need at the expense of others.

Whether, as in my case, it means the money that goes to me should be going into the pension funds of the permies that have just been told they are no longer getting final salary pensions or to the policy holders of this insurance company in reduced premiums improving their quality of life.

There should be no socialist on these forums, socialist contractor is an oxymoron.

Now why do I equate Utopia with Socialism, maybe I have problems!I would certainly not consider myself a socialist, but given that in ICT the main means of production is the skill of the professional, perhaps contractors are people who’ve ‘taken the means of production into their own hands’, albeit in a slightly different way to how Marx suggested that should be done. Perhaps contracting is an example for other trades and professions; instead of subjugating themselves to the corporation, people can free themselves to sell their skills for the best offer while taking responsibility for their own financial future.

NetwkSupport
18th February 2009, 09:52
Money laundering, demanding money with menaces and murder are not recognised as crimes on the UK? Bring it on, time for a career change.

The crime of Mafia association is not recognised in the uk

expat
18th February 2009, 09:59
I would certainly not consider myself a socialist, but given that in ICT the main means of production is the skill of the professional, perhaps contractors are people who’ve ‘taken the means of production into their own hands’, albeit in a slightly different way to how Marx suggested that should be done. Perhaps contracting is an example for other trades and professions; instead of subjugating themselves to the corporation, people can free themselves to sell their skills for the best offer while taking responsibility for their own financial future.That is how I see it too. I am not trying to be a business, but I am trying not to be an employee either: I'm a skilled worker working on my own account.

True, some of the people I work for will see me as just an employee; that's their concern. The government may proclaim that too: that's at best because they are blinkered socialists who think that the world divides strictly int emploers and employees; at worst it's because they have made a pig's ear of the tax system and don't want me taking advantage of that.

NetwkSupport
18th February 2009, 10:03
That is how I see it too. I am not trying to be a business, but I am trying not to be an employee either: I'm a skilled worker working on my own account.

True, some of the people I work for will see me as just an employee; that's their concern. The government may proclaim that too: that's at best because they are blinkered socialists who think that the world divides strictly int emploers and employees; at worst it's because they have made a pig's ear of the tax system and don't want me taking advantage of that.

I agree, also think that politicians and people in power seem to be able to have no problem using loopholes (tax/expenses, etc) but they are quite happy to close down our little loop holes

Mich the Tester
18th February 2009, 10:13
I agree, also think that politicians and people in power seem to be able to have no problem using loopholes (tax/expenses, etc) but they are quite happy to close down our little loop holes
Perhaps politicians and corporations are fighting for survival; maybe it isn’t the ‘Death of Capitalism’ we’re witnessing, but the failure of the corporate, conglomerate model of capitalism. While corporations will be necessary for producing stuff which requires huge capital investment, like cars, aeroplanes and railways, you have to wonder whether huge corporations of 100s of thousands of people ever really can be managed effectively, and whether responsible long term management can be achieved in an environment where shareholders demand short term profits, even at the expense of a business putting money aside for long term investment. The banking collapse seems to me to be a symptom and not a cause of corporate failure; mismanagement is not restricted to banks; look for example at car manufacturers who carried on producing gas guzzlers for short term profit when all the indicators said the future was for smaller more efficient cars, didn’t set aside any reserves for anti-cyclical investment and all the while paid multi gazillion dollar salaries to executives. Perhaps the future’s bright for family businesses, free agents and small cooperatives of professionals who think long-term, set aside reserves and don't just milk the business dry in the good times.

expat
18th February 2009, 10:14
I agree, also think that politicians and people in power seem to be able to have no problem using loopholes (tax/expenses, etc) but they are quite happy to close down our little loop holesI don't really want them.

My complaint about IR35 is not that I want to pay dividends; it is that it is a bad kludge with some bad aspects, of 2 kinds:
1. political, by which I mean aspects that are legitimate for government to bring about, but that I don't like, e.g. no allowance for training.
2. logical, where it is frankly unfair. The risk of paying tax twice over a tax-year boundary is one, and the fact that the point of the whole thing is to force some taxpayers' income into the NIC tax (as a tax, not as an insurance scheme), but not others, is another.

expat
18th February 2009, 10:15
Perhaps politicians and corporations are fighting for survival; maybe it isn’t the ‘Death of Capitalism’ we’re witnessing, but the failure of the corporate, conglomerate model of capitalism.
<snip interesting points>
Perhaps the future’s bright for family businesses, free agents and small cooperatives of professionals who think long-term, set aside reserves and don't just milk the business dry in the good times.Indeed, large-scale corporate capitalism is a relatively recent and local idea. As is the idea that everybody should have an employment.

ratewhore
18th February 2009, 10:19
We used to live in a capitalist democracy. The last twelve years has turned it into an almost communist state...

expat
18th February 2009, 10:24
We used to live in a capitalist democracy. The last twelve years has turned it into an almost communist state...Oh, that is frankly unhelpful rubbish.

You do not like much of what this government does (neither do I as it happens). You are possibly troubled by things like apparently retrospective legislation and spread of surveillance.

But where is this communism of which you speak? These things that I presume you dislike are being done in other western democracies too. That doesn't make them right, but it does mean that they are not blatant communism washing over us under the heel of the NL boot .....

Cyberman
18th February 2009, 13:06
We are watching the death of a socialist party that have failed capitalism and the UK. Capitalism is fine and banks needed some form of regulation, but GB failed in order to create his credit boom. He kept house-prices out of his inflation index and we are reaping the 'rewards' of failed interest rate policy.

Capitalism will survive, but if you strangle companies by over-taxation in order to grow the state by massive proportions, you eventually get the results that we see today. :smokin

DimPrawn
18th February 2009, 13:09
But where is this communism of which you speak?

More and more centralised government control.
Terror laws, loss of freedoms, increase in state powers over the ordinary citizen.
Massive increase in public sector workers (ie. people working for the state).
State buying up banks.
Surveillance society
Government databases, DNA databases, ID Cards




All smacks of Communism to me.

PM-Junkie
18th February 2009, 13:18
More and more centralised government control.
Terror laws, loss of freedoms, increase in state powers over the ordinary citizen.
Massive increase in public sector workers (ie. people working for the state).
State buying up banks.
Surveillance society
Government databases, DNA databases, ID Cards




All smacks of Communism to me.
Oh dear - showing your ignorance again. That is totalitarianism, not communism.

DimPrawn
18th February 2009, 13:21
Oh dear - showing your ignorance again. That is totalitarianism, not communism.

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a concept used to describe political systems whereby a state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private life. Totalitarian regimes or movements maintain themselves in political power by means of an official all-embracing ideology and propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that controls the state, personality cults, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror tactics. The term has been applied to many states, including: the Soviet Union,...


And the Soviet Union was.......

PM-Junkie
18th February 2009, 13:26
And the Soviet Union was.......
....a totalitarian regime which practiced elements of communism.

ratewhore
18th February 2009, 14:52
Oh, that is frankly unhelpful rubbish.


Unhelpful to what? It is an opinion, to which I'm entitled. Now stick that up your hoop you self-important farkwit...

expat
18th February 2009, 14:58
Unhelpful to what? It is an opinion, to which I'm entitled. Now stick that up your hoop you self-important farkwit...Absolutely.

But it is rubbish because it is not only false but baseless and I suspect thoughtless; and it is unhelpful because it does not illuminate the situation or describe it with any degree of accuraccy or insight.

And you are being rude, whereas I am just being critical.

ratewhore
18th February 2009, 15:43
And you are being rude, whereas I am just being critical.

I think you'll find I'm right - in the same way Jeremy Clarkson was right...

expat
18th February 2009, 15:44
I think you'll find I'm right - in the same way Jeremy Clarkson was right...Clarkson was right? When? Damn, I missed that!