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DieScum
13th March 2009, 11:51
Honest question. Do you think IT people are smarter than most other folk in business?

I don't mean the plodder permies but the switched on top guys and contractors.

Bagpuss
13th March 2009, 11:54
Good at thinking in Black and White. But the world is often shades of grey and that does not compute

Pickle2
13th March 2009, 11:54
Honest question. Do you think IT people are smarter than most other folk in business?

I don't mean the plodder permies but the switched on top guys and contractors.

No, obviously. "IT person" is hardly the pinacle of human achivement is it.

ziggy
13th March 2009, 11:55
well I thought we were all rocket scientists ...

expat
13th March 2009, 11:55
Honest question. Do you think IT people are smarter than most other folk in business?

I don't mean the plodder permies but the switched on top guys and contractors.I am afraid to say that I am continually disappointed by the low level of intelligence, education, and even logic, of the general population here. Sorry.

zara_backdog
13th March 2009, 11:55
I think we are 'stranger' then most - just have to see some of the posts in CUK to prove that one.

Bagpuss
13th March 2009, 11:56
I am afraid to say that I am continually disappointed by the low level of intelligence, education, and even logic, of the general population here. Sorry.

WHS :banana:

DieScum
13th March 2009, 11:57
"IT person" is hardly the pinnacle of human achievement is it.

Yeah obviously rockstars and pimps and stuff have it worked out better...but in your average business environment.

I just mean you have to deal with complex issues so regularly that you just get better at working stuff out.

Foxy Moron
13th March 2009, 12:03
I don't think IT contractors are smarter, more smug and self opinionated yes.

expat
13th March 2009, 12:04
Yeah obviously rockstars and pimps and stuff have it worked out better...but in your average business environment.

I just mean you have to deal with complex issues so regularly that you just get better at working stuff out.What complex issues? Most of the tech side of IT is logically quite similar to being a motor mechanic.

denver2k
13th March 2009, 12:07
Honest question. Do you think IT people are smarter than most other folk in business?

I don't mean the plodder permies but the switched on top guys and contractors.

Obviously YES.....Not ALWAYS though...but in most of the cases...

But mostly they are not part of business, they are simply supporting the business....Business treat them just as a replaceable resource. Thats why we have loads of IT contractors but not too many contract dealers,traders,sales people.

DieScum
13th March 2009, 12:13
What complex issues? Most of the tech side of IT is logically quite similar to being a motor mechanic.

Well there is stuff that you probably see as not complex at all which most people are baffled by. Like an SQL query. Most people think that is understandable magic.

Or the interactions between complex systems.

Compare that to other roles in business. Marketing, HR, sales. The complexity of work there is much less. I'm not saying that the work is easier - different skills are required.

But technical professions do mean a constant series of complex challenges. That must alter your brain... perhaps making us in to a sort of super race.

cailin maith
13th March 2009, 12:16
Good at thinking in Black and White. But the world is often shades of grey and that does not compute


I don't think IT contractors are smarter, more smug and self opinionated yes.

WTS

chris79
13th March 2009, 12:16
The way I see it is those permie guys could quite easily leave their secure jobs and be contractors too for the same money. Don't assume there is a correlation between the amount of money you earn and your ability/intelligence.

A close relative of mine is head of IT for a FTSE100 and he's never contracted in his life, yet he can run circles round most people in the field. You may be an expert in your particular area/skill, but it doesn't mean you are better than the next guy just because they have different employment terms or because you don't report to "a line manager".

lambrini_socialist
13th March 2009, 12:17
Honest question. Do you think IT people are smarter than most other folk in business?

I don't mean the plodder permies but the switched on top guys and contractors.

me? yes. the drag-n-drop control jockeys i usually end up working with? no chance.

lambrini_socialist
13th March 2009, 12:19
Good at thinking in Black and White. But the world is often shades of grey and that does not compute

and that is a vacuous truism. why not try writing into the comments pages on Teletext?

sasguru
13th March 2009, 12:29
Definitely not. IT people usually seem to have some ability in a very narrow field but usually are incapable of seeing the bigger picture. Most lack the social skills to progress up the ladder, leaving a gap at senior levels, that self-serving political types fill. And that is why most IT projects in the UK fail.

Mich the Tester
13th March 2009, 12:32
No. We think we’re smarter because we often find ourselves having to follow the lead of intelligent people who behave like idiots. If permies spend long enough doing that, they start losing their brains.

If you speak with nurses and doctors, who are generally pretty intelligent, you’ll hear tales of highly trained professionals being bossed around and judged in their performance by people who know nothing about medicine. Speak to teachers and you’ll hear about their work suffering at the hands of ministerial edicts and performance measurements. Social workers will tell you how their profession has been ruined by form filling and procedures. See The Times; ‘And the end of this perfect paper trail is a dead baby’ (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article5860232.ece). In banks, people achieved their targets. Departments ticked off all their KPI’s for years with no sign of trouble. Police officers were told to achieve government targets for handing out speeding fines while relations with the public, the most important weapon in tackling crime, were hitting new lows. Most of these people are not thick.

What we have in common with all these professional people is that we are too often led by those who believe you can use standard management theories for any organisation ranging from a bank to a child protection agency.

The people doing the management and applying the theories aren’t idiots; they are simply misled. They have been taught at their business schools the standard idea that if you want to make a company succesful, you install a ‘corporate dashboard’, add in some KPIs, standardise all the ‘processes’ and procedures and give everyone a 360 degree appraisal. Of course, you need an audit trail for everything, so professionals must spend a huge proportion of their time filling in forms rather than doing their job.

I’m heartened to see that finally the failure of a particular style of management is becoming so obvious thanks to the credit crunch. I think that what has not yet been recognised or properly accounted for in management theroy is the fact that organisations are now very different to those of only 30 years ago in that there are lots of highly educated, and of course highly opinionated people, working at the coalface, at the lowest levels of the organisation. There’s the challenge for professionals; we need to become managers ourselves instead of leaving the job to misled pseudo-professionals selling their Harvard snake-oil.

sasguru
13th March 2009, 12:37
No. We think we’re smarter because we often find ourselves having to follow the lead of intelligent people who behave like idiots. If permies spend long enough doing that, they start losing their brains.

If you speak with nurses and doctors, who are generally pretty intelligent, you’ll hear tales of highly trained professionals being bossed around and judged in their performance by people who know nothing about medicine. Speak to teachers and you’ll hear about their work suffering at the hands of ministerial edicts and performance measurements. Social workers will tell you how their profession has been ruined by form filling and procedures. See The Times; ‘And the end of this perfect paper trail is a dead baby’ (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article5860232.ece). In banks, people achieved their targets. Departments ticked off all their KPI’s for years with no sign of trouble. Police officers were told to achieve government targets for handing out speeding fines while relations with the public, the most important weapon in tackling crime, were hitting new lows. Most of these people are not thick.

What we have in common with all these professional people is that we are too often led by those who believe you can use standard management theories for any organisation ranging from a bank to a child protection agency.

The people doing the management and applying the theories aren’t idiots; they are simply misled. They have been taught at their business schools the standard idea that if you want to make a company succesful, you install a ‘corporate dashboard’, add in some KPIs, standardise all the ‘processes’ and procedures and give everyone a 360 degree appraisal. Of course, you need an audit trail for everything, so professionals must spend a huge proportion of their time filling in forms rather than doing their job.

I’m heartened to see that finally the failure of a particular style of management is becoming so obvious thanks to the credit crunch. I think that what has not yet been recognised or properly accounted for in management theroy is the fact that organisations are now very different to those of only 30 years ago in that there are lots of highly educated, and of course highly opinionated people, working at the coalface, at the lowest levels of the organisation. There’s the challenge for professionals; we need to become managers ourselves instead of leaving the job to misled pseudo-professionals selling their Harvard snake-oil.

Very erudite, clear and well communicated, but if all you can do is post it on a web site, then your insights are no use to man or beast.
Getting power in the industry is the only way to change things -however that involves getting into the messy world of people.
And most contractors would, understandably, rather take the money and run.

Mich the Tester
13th March 2009, 12:41
Very erudite, clear and well communicated, but if all you can do is post it on a web site, then your insights are no use to man or beast.
I agree. I believe I shall shortly be doing somewhat more as I've joined a network of professional people in NL which includes some very experienced managers AND professionals who recognise this problem and want to to something about it on a commercial basis.

sasguru
13th March 2009, 12:53
I agree. I believe I shall shortly be doing somewhat more as I've joined a network of professional people in NL which includes some very experienced managers AND professionals who recognise this problem and want to to something about it on a commercial basis.

Good luck. It's very difficult to find people who have worked at the coal face for years and yet have the political skills to work in large organisations.
Such people are the ones making the big bucks.:smile

minestrone
13th March 2009, 12:53
If you speak with nurses and doctors, who are generally pretty intelligent, you’ll hear tales of highly trained professionals being bossed around and judged in their performance by people who know nothing about medicine.

Get it every night from the other half, after Shipman they decided to do appraisals on GPs, I am told the abridged interview goes like this..

"I hope you are feeling well, do you want a glass of water? do you want to kill old women?" "no" "ok, see you next year"

Stiil the gf does not know how to work a thermostat.

When I was at uni doing Mech Eng some mixer decided to test the IQ of the social science degree students against the IQ of the engineering students. There was something like a 20 point jump in favour of engineering.

oracleslave
13th March 2009, 13:07
Get it every night from the other half

I always knew she was generous your missus :p

sasguru
13th March 2009, 13:12
I always knew she was generous your missus :p


You too, eh? ;)

Ivor Bigun
13th March 2009, 13:14
I agree. I believe I shall shortly be doing somewhat more as I've joined a network of professional people in NL which includes some very experienced managers AND professionals who recognise this problem and want to to something about it on a commercial basis.

yeh, yeh - :laugh
Consider this - If you truely believed what you say, you'd advertise the idea of "Linkedin" to everyone so that everyone had an equal chance to "progress".

The fact is this, you're just like the next guy - Trying to gain power and grab more money for yourself. There's nothing wrong in that - Just don't try and pretend otherwise as you've been rumbled before you even think it.

You may not realise it, but your attitude is typically Dutch - i.e. You see something thats not being done. You consider it a career advance if YOU do it, so you take it over. After the "job grab", you use it as an example as to why you should be rewarded. It's a sort of American approach but IMO, it is considered devious to a typical Anglo-Saxon and thats where the problem lies. Its one of culture

After all, you don't highlight it to the manager who should be dealing with it - you "overstep" your responsibilities and try to take over his role because it suits YOU.

This is the reason why managers have to be skilled at what they do - they have to keep "loose Dutch cannons" like yourself in check without you knowing - or contain / remove you if it looks like you are about to corupt things too much i.e. you've adapted things and now the manager can no longer totally manage you without potential risk.

That is why you are denied manegerial powers.....
Its nothing to do with your technical ability to do it.

Mich the Tester
13th March 2009, 13:19
Good luck. It's very difficult to find people who have worked at the coal face for years and yet have the political skills to work in large organisations.
Such people are the ones making the big bucks.:smileYou know, I’m not really motivated by the really big bucks. I earn enough (as long as I can stay in work), along with Mrs Tester, to enjoy a lifestyle I could only have dreamt about as a child and which is beyond the reach of most people. What motivates me is actually something else; helping an organisation or a team to do something really well. Not cheaply, or quickly, but really really well. I get a thousand times more satisfaction from the fact that my amateur rugby team is top of it’s league and I’m allowed to play my little part on the field than from getting a rate rise of a few euros. Likewise, my most successful project, of which I am proud, was testing a safety critical system for the emergency services; it works, has worked with no real problems for more than a year now, and has helped to save lots of lives.

I like people and organisations who have a passion for what they do, like chefs who put heart and soul into making good food, nurses who genuinely care about the welfare of patients, a local farmer who breeds pedigree pigs and produces some of the best pork in NL, or even a company like Ferrari, who could easily choose to outsource their production to Cheapo-cheapoland and just live off the brand that their predecessors had built, but prefer to stick stubbornly to craftsmanship and authenticity. Waterford, Wedgwood and all the major banks could have learned something from all these people.

Of course, if I can get the big bucks I won’t turn them down, but that has to be on my terms; big bucks should be the reward for competence, integrity and long term success for all the people who depend on an organisation, not the result of quick-wins that cripple an organisation in the long term.

Foxy Moron
13th March 2009, 13:21
Sounds like you are a Rich thinker Mich, Rather than thinking about getting Rich.

If that makes sense

Mich the Tester
13th March 2009, 13:23
yeh, yeh - :laugh
Consider this - If you truely believed what you say, you'd advertise the idea of "Linkedin" to everyone so that everyone had an equal chance to "progress".
You may not realise it, but your attitude is typically Dutch - i.e. if you see something thats not being done and its a career advance to you. So, you do it and take it over. After the "job grab", you use it as an example as to why you should be rewarded. It's a sort of American approach but IMO, it is considered devious to a typical Anglo-Saxon and thats where the problem lies. Its one of culture
I'm afraid you're wrong. I'm a genuine, unashamed idealist who's actually crazy enough to care about what goes on.

expat
13th March 2009, 13:26
Stiil the gf does not know how to work a thermostat.
but it's obvious that the higher you set it, the faster it will warm up!

Hmm, me too.

Drewster
13th March 2009, 13:30
In answer to the original question - No

It gets on my t*ts when people generalise huge swathes of (different) people into single categories.

So often this is allowed/ignored... where in other areas it is recognised as prejudice.

I know many "IT Contractors" who are total *rses, thick as tulip etc
and many who are sharp as nails...
but then I know a few Dustmen.... some of them are thick some aren't...

A mate of mine gave up IT and is now a "casual" Postman.... he was one of the smartest Analyst/Programmers I have ever met...... now he is the smartest Postie......

Why can't we all live together in peace? Why do we always judge people?
I have a Dream.........

Ivor Bigun
13th March 2009, 13:31
I'm afraid you're wrong. I'm a genuine, unashamed idealist who's actually crazy enough to care about what goes on.

You may think that (and good on you) but you should also consider how much you stress the belief that if you improve the "system", you improve everyone's life.

I'm sure you agree with the idea of "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs"

Where the "problem" lies, is that you fail to see the damage your utopian ideals draw you to. you discount the "broken eggs" along the way.

You should realise that it's these "broken eggs" that ultimately dethrone you along the way - and stop you ever making it to the top.

Mich the Tester
13th March 2009, 13:40
You may think that (and good on you) but you should also consider how much you stress the belief that if you improve the "system", you improve everyone's life.
I don't believe you can improve a system to improve people's lives. I believe that if you give capable people the space to improve the way they work then the results of the 'system' will improve. The problem is the idea of an organisation as a system that's designed top-down for a particular task, where it should actually be more the case that the system adapts bottom-up to the needs of it's environment. I'm in danger of getting a bit too abstract here though. The trouble with abstractions is that they can present the world in simple black and white pictures, where actually the truth is a million shades of grey and rather messy and complicated. That's where professional judgment comes in.

Ivor Bigun
13th March 2009, 13:54
I don't believe you can improve a system to improve people's lives. I believe that if you give capable people the space to improve the way they work then the results of the 'system' will improve.


This is the first stage of thinking how a manager should be. Its usually thought by those who consider they have hit the buffers of how high they can go. i.e. they "think" that to advance (get more money/power/prestige/gain "worth"), they should be thinking about being managers. BUT, in truth, they don't want to be a manager because they still prefer the "doing" part of IT and are not really "turned on" by being a manger.



The problem is the idea of an organisation as a system that's designed top-down for a particular task, where it should actually be more the case that the system adapts bottom-up to the needs of it's environment.
Again, this is clear "employee" thinking. it is a form of "If I was a manager, this is how I'd improve things for the employee - because I have suffered and I don't want anyone else to"



I'm in danger of getting a bit too abstract here though. The trouble with abstractions is that they can present the world in simple black and white pictures, where actually the truth is a million shades of grey and rather messy and complicated. That's where professional judgment comes in.

Professional judgment is that you are not yet ready for management. Hopefully you now understand why and "adapt" the way you think.
Instead of being "idealistic", you respond to what your managers direct you to do - even if it means "unfairly" sacking the most able in your department.

When you can do that without blinking an eye (maybe even a smile?), then you are ready. However, all this HAS to be done without anyone ever knowing you are thinking like this. i.e. they "think" you are altruistic

suityou01
13th March 2009, 14:00
Honest question. Do you think IT people are smarter than most other folk in business?

I don't mean the plodder permies but the switched on top guys and contractors.

Yes. Next question. :D

sasguru
13th March 2009, 14:00
This is the first stage of thinking how a manager should be. Its usually thought by those who consider they have hit the buffers of how high they can go. i.e. they "think" that to advance (get more money/power/prestige/gain "worth"), they should be thinking about being managers. BUT, in truth, they don't want to be a manager because they still prefer the "doing" part of IT and are not really "turned on" by being a manger.


Again, this is clear "employee" thinking. it is a form of "If I was a manager, this is how I'd improve things for the employee - because I have suffered and I don't want anyone else to"



Professional judgment is that you are not yet ready for management. Hopefully you now understand why and "adapt" the way you think.
Instead of being "idealistic", you respond to what your managers direct you to do - even if it means "unfairly" sacking the most able in your department.

When you can do that without blinking an eye (maybe even a smile?), then you are ready. However, all this HAS to be done without anyone ever knowing you are thinking like this. i.e. they "think" you are altruistic

Aren't you missing the point somewhat? Which is that management style you describe has proven not to work?

scooterscot
13th March 2009, 14:06
Are IT bods/contractors smarter than everyone else?

If you can assemble IKEA's flat pack furniture you can become an IT contractor. In other words you have demonstrated the ability to care about reading the instructions when others could not. What's so smart about that?

Drewster
13th March 2009, 14:08
If you can assemble IKEA's flat pack furniture you can become an IT contractor. In other words you have demonstrated the ability to care about reading the instructions when others could not. What's so smart about that?

Come on Scooter - You are living in cloud cuckoo land....

an IT Contractor reading the manual..... what planet are you on!!

Ivor Bigun
13th March 2009, 14:13
Aren't you missing the point somewhat? Which is that management style you describe has proven not to work?

Maybe, I can't possibly comment about the people who've managed you and the teams that you've been involved in.

minestrone
13th March 2009, 14:16
The problem is with programming is that your degree is just the starter to 5 years of really hard work training. OK, you can get a role with Crap Gemini but I was very ambitious, I made software development manager for a company after 5 years, but I am still learning every day, reading everyday, 12 years after leaving Uni.

Most jobs you will be trained after 3-4 years, not IT, they keep changing the goalposts, it needs people who can continually learn as they do the job. Many people cannot do that.

Mich the Tester
13th March 2009, 14:21
Maybe, I can't possibly comment about the people who've managed you and the teams that you've been involved in.I think Sasguru has a point here. Obviously, I haven't worked with you so I don't know your approach to management. What I do know is that if my way of doing things takes off, then someday it will become outdated and it's failings will eventually be greater than it's successes, as I feel has happened to the current approach to managing large organisations. It's an evolutionary thing. The trick is to try and identify and keep the strengths of the old approach while bringing in new ideas to address the weaknesses; not easy, but if we don't try, we can be sure we won't succeed.

Central economic planning failed because it didn't allow for adaptive processes but relied too much on the (often corrupted) prescriptions of central committees. Out and out profit seeking has failed because it didn't sufficiently account for the economic, social and political environment in which companies work. Too many bankers thought public anger at huge bonusses didn't matter as long as the profits rolled in; as soon as the profits stopped rolling in, society and the economy took it's revenge.

My way will fail too eventually, and thenit's time for someone with new ideas.

Francko
13th March 2009, 14:23
Can you imagine a company run by assguru and ivorbigun?

WE 'R TW'TS :laugh

sasguru
13th March 2009, 14:35
Can you imagine a company run by assguru and ivorbigun?



Well it's clear no one can imagine a company run by you.
:rollin:

DieScum
13th March 2009, 14:47
To clarify the smart thing.

I was in a marketing class recently. There was a good five minute conversation about the meaning of the instruction:

"Design a questionnaire for the four internal stakeholders."

This confused several people and they couldn't understand whether it meant design four questionnaires or just one.

I piped up that it was just one because that was what it said... the conversation and confusion continued... and it was just hard for me to get inside the heads of people who couldn't understand that sentence.

Mich the Tester
13th March 2009, 14:50
To clarify the smart thing.

I was in a marketing class recently. There was a good five minute conversation about the meaning of the instruction:

"Design a questionnaire for the four internal stakeholders."

This confused several people and they couldn't understand whether it meant design four questionnaires or just one.

I piped up that it was just one because that was what it said... the conversation and confusion continued... and it was just hard for me to get inside the heads of people who couldn't understand that sentence.Just replace the word ‘design’ with ‘reserve’, ‘questionnaire’ with ‘table’ and ‘internal stakeholders’ with ‘diners’. I think that would make the structure of the sentence quite clear to most people with a basic understanding of English.

scooterscot
13th March 2009, 15:46
Come on Scooter - You are living in cloud cuckoo land....

an IT Contractor reading the manual..... what planet are you on!!

I refer to the manual when stuck - For sum reason I just cannot remember my z tables.

IT is over move over come on lets go, it was a nice fad while it lasted, it's time to go back to pen & paper.

dinker
13th March 2009, 15:50
IQ versus occupation:

http://i43.tinypic.com/24degd2.jpg

Drewster
13th March 2009, 15:55
I refer to the manual when stuck

So you are the one manfully trying to get us a good name!!!

minestrone
13th March 2009, 16:07
IQ versus occupation:

http://i43.tinypic.com/24degd2.jpg

:rollin:

Where did that come from? The gf got 5 A Highers and a medical degree, every night I have to explain to her why the house does not get warmer quicker if you bang the thermostat up to 100.

Francko
13th March 2009, 16:07
IQ versus occupation:

http://i43.tinypic.com/24degd2.jpg

Service Managers ... minimum IQ 85... mmm unfortunately neither assguru nor ivorbi can make it that high.... so they are not on that list, definitely.:laugh

sasguru
13th March 2009, 16:12
Service Managers ... minimum IQ 85... mmm unfortunately neither assguru nor ivorbi can make it that high.... so they are not on that list, definitely.:laugh

It must hurt to have such a self-believed high IQ and yet be powerless and poor, buffeted by the vagaries of economic fortune.

:rollin:

expat
13th March 2009, 17:05
It must hurt to have such a self-believed high IQ and yet be powerless and poor, buffeted by the vagaries of economic fortune.

:rollin:As it has indeed hurt many a very intelligent person who was not well off, or "successful" by monetary standards.

Einstein was rejected for Uni for being too stroppy, and only got work as a clerk through nepotism. Ramanujan couldn't even matriculate in Madras University, but Hardy and Littlewood recognised his genius and paid for him to come to Cambridge. Wittgenstein only got on with his philosophy after Russell paid his debts.

Compared to them, I wouldn't be so proud of being able to boast of a modicum of success in the rat-race.

expat
13th March 2009, 17:09
Just replace the word ‘design’ with ‘reserve’, ‘questionnaire’ with ‘table’ and ‘internal stakeholders’ with ‘diners’. I think that would make the structure of the sentence quite clear to most people with a basic understanding of English.Trouble is, the abstraction you just performed would demand a relatively high IQ.

However, I do believe that a deep and wide ability in a particularly technical side of IT will probably correlate substantially with IQ, just because you have to be a bit smart to do it. ISTM that fewer and fewer of us do really technical programming any more. I know I don't; nor do I use very much of my IQ, except to make life easier. Perhaps that's what it's "meant for" anyway?

sasguru
13th March 2009, 17:11
As it has indeed hurt many a very intelligent person who was not well off, or "successful" by monetary standards.

Einstein was rejected for Uni for being too stroppy, and only got work as a clerk through nepotism. Ramanujan couldn't even matriculate in Madras University, but Hardy and Littlewood recognised his genius and paid for him to come to Cambridge. Wittgenstein only got on with his philosophy after Russell paid his debts.

Compared to them, I wouldn't be so proud of being able to boast of a modicum of success in the rat-race.

I hardly think Francko can be compared to Einstein, Ramanujan or Wittgenstein. He's probably never heard of one or more of them.:laugh
Which was the point, really.

Board Game Geek
13th March 2009, 17:35
Are IT bods/contractors smarter than everyone else?

Dunno.

That does sound like a sweeping generalisation though.

As for myself and where I work, I keep quiet about ideas and improvements, since it's not my place to voice them. I'm a techie, so I behave as is expected of me.

The fact that I've been an IT manager for multi-million pound companies in the past, had teams working for me, and done all the high level politicking with the Board, stakeholders and Clients is not applicable to my current role.

Puffing up my chest as saying "When I used to work as XYZ...blah blah blah" isn't going to impress anyone and could be seen as arrogant.

Much better to do the role I am paid to do, and let others who are managers do their thing.

Francko
13th March 2009, 17:43
I'd also dare to affirm to expat and assguru that complementing your discourses by leveraging latin-origined words does not augment the eloquentness of your speech but simply renders it in a more legible form for us latin-languages native speakers. :laugh

Ivor Bigun
13th March 2009, 17:47
I'd also dare to affirm to expat and assguru that complementing your discourses by leveraging latin-origined words does not augment the eloquentness of your speech but simply renders it in a more legible form for us latin-languages native speakers. :laugh

........and relax......

Ivor Bigun
13th March 2009, 17:53
Much better to do the role I am paid to do, and let others who are managers do their thing.

Now that IS smart.

expat
13th March 2009, 18:37
IQ versus occupation:

http://i43.tinypic.com/24degd2.jpgDoes "computer occupations" include agents? :D

Sockpuppet
13th March 2009, 18:42
When I was at uni doing Mech Eng some mixer decided to test the IQ of the social science degree students against the IQ of the engineering students. There was something like a 20 point jump in favour of engineering.

IQ tests are flawed. You can "train" for them but it doesn't actually mean you are getting any smarter.

OwlHoot
13th March 2009, 19:03
What complex issues? Most of the tech side of IT is logically quite similar to being a motor mechanic.

Many of the complex issues are unnecessary complications in systems designed by thick, amateurish permies.

(although I've seen some horrors perpetrated by contractors too, and some permies are pretty clued up albeit usually only after years working on one system).

expat
13th March 2009, 21:12
I'd also dare to affirm to expat and assguru that complementing your discourses by leveraging latin-origined words does not augment the eloquentness of your speech but simply renders it in a more legible form for us latin-languages native speakers. :laughCan you please tell me what you mean by that? Is it something I said? Because I have just looked back at all my posts on this thread, and I can not find any excessively latinate circumlocutions, except of course for this one.

Below are all my contributions up to the point of your post. Not that I think they are worth reading again, but I would really like to know what it is that you take exception to?



I am afraid to say that I am continually disappointed by the low level of intelligence, education, and even logic, of the general population here. Sorry.


What complex issues? Most of the tech side of IT is logically quite similar to being a motor mechanic.


but it's obvious that the higher you set it, the faster it will warm up!

Hmm, me too.


As it has indeed hurt many a very intelligent person who was not well off, or "successful" by monetary standards.

Einstein was rejected for Uni for being too stroppy, and only got work as a clerk through nepotism. Ramanujan couldn't even matriculate in Madras University, but Hardy and Littlewood recognised his genius and paid for him to come to Cambridge. Wittgenstein only got on with his philosophy after Russell paid his debts.

Compared to them, I wouldn't be so proud of being able to boast of a modicum of success in the rat-race.


Trouble is, the abstraction you just performed would demand a relatively high IQ.

However, I do believe that a deep and wide ability in a particularly technical side of IT will probably correlate substantially with IQ, just because you have to be a bit smart to do it. ISTM that fewer and fewer of us do really technical programming any more. I know I don't; nor do I use very much of my IQ, except to make life easier. Perhaps that's what it's "meant for" anyway?

HermanDune
14th March 2009, 07:57
When I was at uni doing Mech Eng some mixer decided to test the IQ of the social science degree students against the IQ of the engineering students. There was something like a 20 point jump in favour of engineering.


How many people and what was the range? Has it ever been replicated?

I shared a flat with three Mech Engineers and while they were undoubtedly bright at solving mathematical and logical puzzles, their levels of general knowledge were woefully poor. They had very little knowledge of history, current affairs, geography, poor personal hygiene, poor social skills, increidbly bad at learning foregin languages, and displayed an array of other "social handicaps". Apart from that they were quite a good laugh to live with.

They were ideal candidates for IQ tests as their way of thinking and learning were ideally suited for the logic puzzles/tests in an IQ test.

As for me dear reader, I was a social science student!:bluelight

Francko
14th March 2009, 08:46
Can you please tell me what you mean by that? Is it something I said? Because I have just looked back at all my posts on this thread, and I can not find any excessively latinate circumlocutions, except of course for this one.

Below are all my contributions up to the point of your post. Not that I think they are worth reading again, but I would really like to know what it is that you take exception to?

Expat, you are too damn serious for this forum. As a punishment for this incorrect behaviour you must read loud to yourself 10 Milan and SasGuru old posts for 10 days. That's enough as a "Mea Culpa". :(

expat
14th March 2009, 11:29
Expat, you are too damn serious for this forum. As a punishment for this incorrect behaviour you must read loud to yourself 10 Milan and SasGuru old posts for 10 days. That's enough as a "Mea Culpa". :(Oh no, they are the life and soul of this party! If they go I go :laugh



Tell you what I'll do, I will stop posting a reply to everything I read. Oh wait....