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DimPrawn
18th March 2009, 12:55
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7950390.stm

Affluent 'facing debt problems'

How can anyone in debt be classed as affluent?

If you are affluent, you can pay your debts, no?

alreadypacked
18th March 2009, 12:58
"A regional breakdown showed that the highest levels of debt were generally in the south of England - at an average of £29,000, but the over 60s in Wales had one of the highest debt levels in the UK at £25,947."


What are the old folk in Wales up too :confused:

moorfield
18th March 2009, 12:59
Affluent is BBC code for non-chav/white/middle class, so probably people with overstretched mortgages and credit card limits.

DimPrawn
18th March 2009, 12:59
"A regional breakdown showed that the highest levels of debt were generally in the south of England - at an average of £29,000, but the over 60s in Wales had one of the highest debt levels in the UK at £25,947."


What are the old folk in Wales up too :confused:

Zeity? :laugh

Mich the Tester
18th March 2009, 13:03
WTF?
Twenty nine thousand quid on credit cards and personal loans? That’s f**king lunacy. I didn’t realise how big the problem really is as I thought most people were fairly sensible with money and there were just a few idiots around, but that’s an unfathomable amount of debt to build up if you’re not buying a house.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:03
Should say "apparently affluent" ...

People like me! Very good at spending other people's money!

Foxy Moron
18th March 2009, 13:04
I wonder if there are any maxed out contractors here feeling the pinch

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:19
WTF?
Twenty nine thousand quid on credit cards and personal loans? That’s f**king lunacy. I didn’t realise how big the problem really is as I thought most people were fairly sensible with money and there were just a few idiots around, but that’s an unfathomable amount of debt to build up if you’re not buying a house.

£29k is small. People are going bust for plenty more than that these days:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1521833

Gordon Brown
18th March 2009, 13:31
Every man, woman and child is in debt to me for about £35,000 thanks to my prudence.

Mich the Tester
18th March 2009, 13:32
£29k is small. People are going bust for plenty more than that these days:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1521833

‘Approx 43,000.00 over 16 Credit / Store Cards and 1 Loan.’

‘ 42k accumalated over 18 years. No excuses,lived beyond my means’

‘ £17k .... thought overtime was guaranteed.... and then the bubble burst!’

‘Just shy of 151K of unsecured debt:freaky:. All on credit cards, loans and overdrafts. Got nothing to show for it either!?’

‘just finished filling out the forms for the 6th march, my debt totals 30,000 and my hubbys is 45,000. Cant believe how it mounts up, it is our fault, reckless spending thinking things would be ok, then all of a sudden you cant meet the payments.’

F**king hell. All followed Gordon's fine example did they?

Has there been a complete detachment from reality in the UK?

Didn't people realise that the nature of any debt is that you have to pay it back with interest?

I'd like to know what the hell people were buying wth all this debt. Lots of bling-bling jewellery and designer clothing?

Svalbaard
18th March 2009, 13:35
WTF?
Twenty nine thousand quid on credit cards and personal loans? That’s f**king lunacy. I didn’t realise how big the problem really is as I thought most people were fairly sensible with money and there were just a few idiots around, but that’s an unfathomable amount of debt to build up if you’re not buying a house.

Hard to believe eh? I know someone who has just declared themselves bankrupt owing £70k.

They have been very stupid with money however so it's no surprise to me.

sasguru
18th March 2009, 13:35
Has there been a complete detachment from reality in the UK??

Yes. Next.

ace00
18th March 2009, 13:36
‘Approx 43,000.00 over 16 Credit / Store Cards and 1 Loan.’

‘ 42k accumalated over 18 years. No excuses,lived beyond my means’

‘ £17k .... thought overtime was guaranteed.... and then the bubble burst!’

‘Just shy of 151K of unsecured debt:freaky:. All on credit cards, loans and overdrafts. Got nothing to show for it either!?’

‘just finished filling out the forms for the 6th march, my debt totals 30,000 and my hubbys is 45,000. Cant believe how it mounts up, it is our fault, reckless spending thinking things would be ok, then all of a sudden you cant meet the payments.’

F**king hell. All followed Gordon's fine example did they?

Has there been a complete detachment from reality in the UK?

Didn't people realise that the nature of any debt is that you have to pay it back with interest?

I'd like to know what the hell people were buying wth all this debt. Lots of bling-bling jewellery and designer clothing?


Well this is a big part of the crud we're in now. Apparently it's worse in the States. Remember that Simpsons were Bart gets a credit card in his dog's name (Santa's little helper :smile ) ? That's basically how it is from what I hear.
TBH I think for UK residents the smartest way to make money is borrow loads, declare bankrupt, sign-on. I would do it but a) non-resident , b) it's against my personal moral compass.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:39
What's the moral problem with this?

The banks made lots of money from us over the years. A bankrupt is just getting a bit of payback.

Bagpuss
18th March 2009, 13:40
‘Approx 43,000.00 over 16 Credit / Store Cards and 1 Loan.’

‘ 42k accumalated over 18 years. No excuses,lived beyond my means’

‘ £17k .... thought overtime was guaranteed.... and then the bubble burst!’

‘Just shy of 151K of unsecured debt:freaky:. All on credit cards, loans and overdrafts. Got nothing to show for it either!?’

‘just finished filling out the forms for the 6th march, my debt totals 30,000 and my hubbys is 45,000. Cant believe how it mounts up, it is our fault, reckless spending thinking things would be ok, then all of a sudden you cant meet the payments.’

F**king hell. All followed Gordon's fine example did they?

Has there been a complete detachment from reality in the UK?

Didn't people realise that the nature of any debt is that you have to pay it back with interest?

I'd like to know what the hell people were buying wth all this debt. Lots of bling-bling jewellery and designer clothing?

In the late 80s I went to the bank for a car loan. the best loan rate was about 15%, I only wanted £1500 and had to see the bank manager to get it.

contrast that with now...

Up until recently I've stoozed credit cards, and was able to borrow probably around 70k fairly easily self certing. Of course I paid it all back, it seems many don't or cannot.

ace00
18th March 2009, 13:42
What's the moral problem with this?

The banks made lots of money from us over the years. A bankrupt is just getting a bit of payback.


How much did they make from you?

My banking is free.

TheBigD
18th March 2009, 13:42
People do seem to have lost their minds when in comes to living in credit, but I think the lenders need to shoulder some of the blame. After all, if someone wanted to borrow money from me, I'd want to make damn sure they had the meas to pay it back.

Cyberman
18th March 2009, 13:43
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7950390.stm

Affluent 'facing debt problems'

How can anyone in debt be classed as affluent?

If you are affluent, you can pay your debts, no?



Some of the most affluent people in this world live on debt. There is no contradiction here at all. They are affluent as long as they can service that debt. If Richard Branson had to repay all of his debts right now, I bet he would struggle too because he would have to realise his assets at very low current valuations. :laugh

Svalbaard
18th March 2009, 13:43
Well this is a big part of the crud we're in now. Apparently it's worse in the States. Remember that Simpsons were Bart gets a credit card in his dog's name (Santa's little helper :smile ) ? That's basically how it is from what I hear.
TBH I think for UK residents the smartest way to make money is borrow loads, declare bankrupt, sign-on. I would do it but a) non-resident , b) it's against my personal moral compass.

Problem is though from what I've seen people now see declaring bankrupty through their own failure to manage their finances as an easy way out of the problem, thinking that it will all be off of their record after 7 years; - but fail to realise that it will actually stay with them for the rest of their lives.

Seem to be a lot of "bankruptcy advisers" doing nicely out of this trade as well.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:46
How much did they make from you?

More than £50k in the last 5 years - interest on credit cards (I'm a heavy borrower)

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:47
but fail to realise that it will actually stay with them for the rest of their lives.

I doubt that - I suspect that so many people are going bust in these times that the banks will get the blame and bankrupts will be seen as the victims.

ace00
18th March 2009, 13:48
More than £50k in the last 5 years - interest on credit cards (I'm a heavy borrower)

That must be terrible for you - they came round and made you borrow all that money. Awful. :(

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 13:48
I know a family who've lived on credit card loans for the past twenty years. They do it because it's their only supply of credit, and they want the credit to fund their lifestyle. Of course, if they'd cut back a bit, they'd have more money and a better lifestyle now. That's what comes of living for the now.

I have a mortgage which is currently 66% of the value of the house. Otherwise, no debt.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:48
That must be terrible for you - they came round and made you borrow all that money. Awful. :(

You're obviously not divorced. Remind me to make snide comments back when you are :D

Mich the Tester
18th March 2009, 13:49
What I find amazing is the contrast with getting finance for a sensible business plan. Even before the credit crunch I knew many tales from businesspeople of the work involved in convincing a bank manager to lend a business even small sums to buy machinery, vans or pay rent deposits on premises. Several years ago I had to work hard to convince my bank manager to lend me some money to pay for a rather expensive technical course; eventually after reviewing and reworking the business case 3 times he agreed and I paid it back within a year. Now I hear of consumers racking up 150 thousand quid in unsecured debt and it just defies belief. Did nobody think to ask people what they were spending the money on when they borrowed it? I mean, if someone says he wants to spend 150k on a bottling machine to increase the output of his fruit juice company he has to produce a well worked out business case, examined by accountants and then the bottling machine will be security against the loan. A consumer on the other hand can borrow the same amount to spend on posh holidays, flashy shoes, flat screen tellies and booze with no questions asked.

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 13:51
That must be terrible for you - they came round and made you borrow all that money. Awful. :(

Yes. And they hid from you that you'd have to pay a lot of interest if you didn't pay it in full off every month. And they hid the rate at which they'd charge interest. It's so unfair.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:51
A consumer on the other hand can borrow the same amount to spend on posh holidays, flashy shoes, flat screen tellies and booze with no questions asked.

And that's exactly why the banks have no one to blame but themselves.

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 13:52
You're obviously not divorced. Remind me to make snide comments back when you are :D

Oh, I see. You're wife maxed out your cards, then left you.

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 13:52
And that's exactly why the banks have no one to blame but themselves.

They have their share of blame, but no-one held a gun to the head of those who took out loans.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:53
It's so unfair.

Hey! Was I whining? No.

Svalbaard
18th March 2009, 13:53
I doubt that - I suspect that so many people are going bust in these times that the banks will get the blame and bankrupts will be seen as the victims.

Unfortunately I feel you may be right.

Cyberman
18th March 2009, 13:54
You're obviously not divorced. Remind me to make snide comments back when you are :D


Never get married and you'll never get divorced. There's nothing wrong though with marrying when you're young as your wealth is produced by your partnership, so it is only fair to split 50/50. What I would resent is marrying at 50 and losing half of my hard-earned wealth within a few years to a moneygrabber who has contributed very little. The law at the moment unfortunately deters marriage in later life. :(

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 13:55
Hey! Was I whining? No.

It sounded like it from here. Maybe it's high pitched moan on the wire?

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:55
Oh, I see. You're wife maxed out your cards, then left you.

That happened, yes.

Bagpuss
18th March 2009, 13:56
They have their share of blame, but no-one held a gun to the head of those who took out loans.

I agree, but consider a period of time where house prices rise for ever and where "it's different this time". It wasn't only the plebs and Nu Labour thinking that. Search this very board. Herd mentality is a hard to work against. Even on here.

oracleslave
18th March 2009, 13:56
Never get married and you'll never get divorced. There's nothing wrong though with marrying when you're young as your wealth is produced by your partnership, so it is only fair to split 50/50. What I would resent is marrying at 50 and losing half of my hard-earned wealth within a few years to a moneygrabber who has contributed very little. The law at the moment unfortunately deters marriage in later life. :(

I suspect your pittance will remain safe :laugh

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:56
but no-one held a gun to the head of those who took out loans.

Did anyone say they did?

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 13:57
That happened, yes.

OK. Fair enough. You're not a heavy borrower, but you divorced someone who was. You really should make things clear.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 13:57
Maybe it's high pitched moan on the wire?

Fine here. It must be at your end.

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 13:58
Did anyone say they did?

That was in response to you saying "The banks have no-one to blame but themselves". I then point out that no-one forced anyone to take out a loan, and so demonstrating that the responsibility could be considered to be shared.


Fine here. It must be at your end. Aww.. Has de nasty nat upset diddums?

Mich the Tester
18th March 2009, 14:04
They have their share of blame, but no-one held a gun to the head of those who took out loans.
The banks ARE largely to blame. Of course, people who took out huge debts to spend on stuff that provides little long term value are a part of the problem, but the whole point of a ‘financial expert’ such as an advisor or bank manager is that he must help his clients to make sensible financial decisions. It seems to me that an entire sector failed in its most basic responsibility of selling products that are safe for the consumer to use. Anyone selling a product is legally bound to ensure the safety of his product. The car industry is forced by law to test all products for crash safety. The pharmaceutical industry is held to very strict standards to protect the safety of patients. There’s perhaps a case for saying that bankers who extended nonsense credit that consumers can’t handle should be prosecuted for knowingly selling dangerous products. I’m not saying the bankrupt consumers should be compensated, but somehow the law needs to come crashing down on those in positions of ‘expertise’ and responsibility who have knowingly misled us all.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 14:05
You really should make things clear.

I wasn't trying to defend my position (for which I accept full responsibility), just trying to point out some alternative POVs on the issue.

I feel bad for people who followed the Government's example and lived for today by remortgaging their house to the hilt and borrowing heavily on cards. Yes maybe they shouldn't have, but this is the general public we're talking about - the same people who voted in this government - hardly the intelligentsia.

Now these people are in the tulip, losing their jobs and houses, going bust, whatever. And they're genuinely baffled wondering "what did I do?"

And they blame the banks and the government because it was their behaviour in lending all this money that signalled that it was ok, the norm, nothing to worry about.

And I think these people have a point.

Ruprect
18th March 2009, 14:05
What I find amazing is the contrast with getting finance for a sensible business plan. Even before the credit crunch I knew many tales from businesspeople of the work involved in convincing a bank manager to lend a business even small sums to buy machinery, vans or pay rent deposits on premises. Several years ago I had to work hard to convince my bank manager to lend me some money to pay for a rather expensive technical course; eventually after reviewing and reworking the business case 3 times he agreed and I paid it back within a year. Now I hear of consumers racking up 150 thousand quid in unsecured debt and it just defies belief. Did nobody think to ask people what they were spending the money on when they borrowed it? I mean, if someone says he wants to spend 150k on a bottling machine to increase the output of his fruit juice company he has to produce a well worked out business case, examined by accountants and then the bottling machine will be security against the loan. A consumer on the other hand can borrow the same amount to spend on posh holidays, flashy shoes, flat screen tellies and booze with no questions asked.

"Brown's Britain". In a nutshell.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 14:07
Aww.. Has de nasty nat upset diddums?

No. Were you trying?

Svalbaard
18th March 2009, 14:15
I wasn't trying to defend my position (for which I accept full responsibility), just trying to point out some alternative POVs on the issue.

I feel bad for people who followed the Government's example and lived for today by remortgaging their house to the hilt and borrowing heavily on cards. Yes maybe they shouldn't have, but this is the general public we're talking about - the same people who voted in this government - hardly the intelligentsia.

Now these people are in the tulip, losing their jobs and houses, going bust, whatever. And they're genuinely baffled wondering "what did I do?"

And they blame the banks and the government because it was their behaviour in lending all this money that signalled that it was ok, the norm, nothing to worry about.

And I think these people have a point.

"What did I do?"

Well, you borrowed more than you could afford to pay back so you could keep up appearances. Only now that the piper wants to be paid you realise what a stupid tw*t you have been (I don't mean you personally Platypus OK).

I agree that the banks should shoulder some of the blame. But there is also a certain amount of responsibility to oneself and family to manage financial affairs prudently. It used to be that bankruptcy was the great unmentionable with proper consequences. Now, just like everything else - it has become commodotised to the point where I feel people will not learn from the experience and it truly has become an easy way out.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 14:17
The car industry is forced by law to test all products for crash safety. The pharmaceutical industry is held to very strict standards to protect the safety of patients. There’s perhaps a case for saying that bankers who extended nonsense credit that consumers can’t handle should be prosecuted for knowingly selling dangerous products.

Thought provoking point. Thx.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 14:19
But there is also a certain amount of responsibility to oneself and family to manage financial affairs prudently.

You won't find me disagreeing there.


It used to be that bankruptcy was the great unmentionable with proper consequences

Like debtors prison? I think it's a good thing we've moved on.

ace00
18th March 2009, 14:25
And they blame the banks and the government because it was their behaviour in lending all this money that signalled that it was ok, the norm, nothing to worry about.

And I think these people have a point.

Yeh, me too TBH. A trinity of foolishness, government, banks and consumers.

It's the Labour attempt to shift all blame to bankers upsets me: it's the politics of the morally bankrupt & it's very dangerous. Go look at 1930's Germany for similar.

Svalbaard
18th March 2009, 14:29
You won't find me disagreeing there.

Like debtors prison? I think it's a good thing we've moved on.

Likewise, I don't want to disagree with you. But I know a couple who owe lots and have built up this debt knowing full well that they can always declare bankruptcy without any consequences other than a period of time where they can't get credit to buy more pointless carp.

Cyberman
18th March 2009, 14:31
Yeh, me too TBH. A trinity of foolishness, government, banks and consumers.

It's the Labour attempt to shift all blame to bankers upsets me: it's the politics of the morally bankrupt & it's very dangerous. Go look at 1930's Germany for similar.


.. but Labour always have been morally bankrupt. Remember the lies of 'we have no plans to raise taxes', 'no return to boom and bust', 'we will be whiter than white' etc. Then they proceed to outsleaze the Tories on a grand scale, fiddle expenses, teach sex to five year olds, etc etc. :sick

Pogle
18th March 2009, 14:40
Never get married and you'll never get divorced. There's nothing wrong though with marrying when you're young as your wealth is produced by your partnership, so it is only fair to split 50/50. What I would resent is marrying at 50 and losing half of my hard-earned wealth within a few years to a moneygrabber who has contributed very little. The law at the moment unfortunately deters marriage in later life. :(


It is a very cold and lonely place inside your head.

TimberWolf
18th March 2009, 14:40
Is this all down to house prices again?

(e.g. are credit card debts secured on a house, which always rises in value. Never done it myself, except a mortgage)

NotAllThere
18th March 2009, 14:45
No. Were you trying?

Not really. I mostly agree with your sentiments.

Platypus
18th March 2009, 14:49
I remember ... 1976

What is the average life expectancy of a lizard? You're clearly pushing the boundary :tongue

alreadypacked
18th March 2009, 16:39
A lot longer than the average hu-man... :yay:

So that explains this :alien

"the over 60s in Wales had one of the highest debt levels in the UK at £25,947."

Gonzo
18th March 2009, 21:02
The banks ARE largely to blame. <snip> I’m not saying the bankrupt consumers should be compensated, but somehow the law needs to come crashing down on those in positions of ‘expertise’ and responsibility who have knowingly misled us all.I can foresee a whole new arena for people to abdicate their responsibilies - people who were "missold a credit-card". If they cannot repay then the bank shouldn't have sold it to them.

Not only should the person then be excused from repaying their debt, they should get compensation for all the interest that they have already paid. Brilliant!

Cyberman
18th March 2009, 22:01
I can foresee a whole new arena for people to abdicate their responsibilies - people who were "missold a credit-card". If they cannot repay then the bank shouldn't have sold it to them.

Not only should the person then be excused from repaying their debt, they should get compensation for all the interest that they have already paid. Brilliant!


I agree with you. People who take on debt must take personal responsibility for that decision. To continually blame the banks is just a diversionary tactic by HMG to procure votes. :tired

OwlHoot
18th March 2009, 22:20
Some of the most affluent people in this world live on debt. There is no contradiction here at all. They are affluent as long as they can service that debt. If Richard Branson had to repay all of his debts right now, I bet he would struggle too because he would have to realise his assets at very low current valuations. :laugh

That's very true - Also, peoples' lifestyles naturally expand to take account of extra income, even apparent income from rising house prices while that lasted.

I bet most permies becoming contractors go on a binge when the invoice payments first start rolling in, maybe not so much these days; but I know I did when I started contracting 10 years ago.

It looks like more than half, if not most, people admitting their debts on that savings site were caught out when their income suddenly took a dive.

Mich the Tester
19th March 2009, 09:07
I can foresee a whole new arena for people to abdicate their responsibilies - people who were "missold a credit-card". If they cannot repay then the bank shouldn't have sold it to them.

Not only should the person then be excused from repaying their debt, they should get compensation for all the interest that they have already paid. Brilliant!My point is it’s the fault and responsibility of both the borrowers AND the lenders. You don’t excuse one by punishing the other. In this case, the bankrupt borrowers have probably had enough punishment to learn their lessons; they’ve lost all their personal wealth and have an atrocious credit rating, which will make it difficult for them to get jobs or get mortgages for a long time. And that's right. What isn't right is that the people who sold them credit irresponsibly get away with multi-million pound pay offs and huge pensions, while the innocent victims are taxpayers, small and medium sized businesses who can’t get normal credit, and pensioners who’ve seen their investments destroyed.

Those bankers who have lent irresponsibly (and borrowed irresponsibly to do so) should be prosecuted or sued through whichever legal means will work to strip them of their personal gains. It’s not a case of simply getting retribution or apportioning too much blame to one party, but enshrining the principle that a director or a professional has real responsibility in return for the high salary and bonuses. It’s about protecting capitalism against pseudo-capitalists who ignore their duty to look after other people’s money in a professional way and act irresponsibly and unprofessionally for personal gain.

Platypus
19th March 2009, 09:49
I agree with you. People who take on debt must take personal responsibility for that decision. To continually blame the banks is just a diversionary tactic by HMG to procure votes.

And yet your view on holders of NR shares seems to be one where "caveat emptor" does NOT apply and you blame the government?

So basically, someone else's problem is their fault, meanwhile your problem isn't your fault.

Drewster
19th March 2009, 09:58
So basically, someone else's problem is their fault, meanwhile your problem isn't your fault.

I am cautious
You are indecisive

I am a realist
You are a cynic

I am eccentric
You are wierd

I was unlucky
You are a f'kin moron

I like this logic!!

NotAllThere
19th March 2009, 10:42
Ah, irregular verbs.

I give unofficial briefings
You leak
He is prosecuted under the Official Secrets acts.

I am cautious
You are indecisive
He is schizophrenic

I am a realist
You are a cynic
He is delusional

I am an individual
You are eccentric
He is round the twist

I was unlucky
You are a f'kin moron
He deserves to lose everything