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datestamp
24th November 2005, 09:06
Oh dear. Can't talk about this. Sorry officer, give me two minutes to finish typing this. And they tried to push it under the carpet using the official secrets act. Very naughty.

PRESIDENT Bush planned to bomb Arab TV station al-Jazeera in friendly Qatar (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16397937&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=exclusive--bush-plot-to-bomb-his-arab-ally-name_page.html)


PRESIDENT Bush planned to bomb Arab TV station al-Jazeera in friendly Qatar, a "Top Secret" No 10 memo reveals.

But he was talked out of it at a White House summit by Tony Blair, who said it would provoke a worldwide backlash.

A source said: "There's no doubt what Bush wanted, and no doubt Blair didn't want him to do it." Al-Jazeera is accused by the US of fuelling the Iraqi insurgency.

The attack would have led to a massacre of innocents on the territory of a key ally, enraged the Middle East and almost certainly have sparked bloody retaliation.

A source said last night: "The memo is explosive and hugely damaging to Bush.

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"He made clear he wanted to bomb al-Jazeera in Qatar and elsewhere. Blair replied that would cause a big problem.

"There's no doubt what Bush wanted to do - and no doubt Blair didn't want him to do it."

A Government official suggested that the Bush threat had been "humorous, not serious".

But another source declared: "Bush was deadly serious, as was Blair. That much is absolutely clear from the language used by both men."

Yesterday former Labour Defence Minister Peter Kilfoyle challenged Downing Street to publish the five-page transcript of the two leaders' conversation. He said: "It's frightening to think that such a powerful man as Bush can propose such cavalier actions.

"I hope the Prime Minister insists this memo be published. It gives an insight into the mindset of those who were the architects of war."

Bush disclosed his plan to target al-Jazeera, a civilian station with a huge Mid-East following, at a White House face-to-face with Mr Blair on April 16 last year.

At the time, the US was launching an all-out assault on insurgents in the Iraqi town of Fallujah.

Al-Jazeera infuriated Washington and London by reporting from behind rebel lines and broadcasting pictures of dead soldiers, private contractors and Iraqi victims.

The station, watched by millions, has also been used by bin Laden and al-Qaeda to broadcast atrocities and to threaten the West.

Al-Jazeera's HQ is in the business district of Qatar's capital, Doha.

Its single-storey buildings would have made an easy target for bombers. As it is sited away from residential areas, and more than 10 miles from the US's desert base in Qatar, there would have been no danger of "collateral damage".

Dozens of al-Jazeera staff at the HQ are not, as many believe, Islamic fanatics. Instead, most are respected and highly trained technicians and journalists.

To have wiped them out would have been equivalent to bombing the BBC in London and the most spectacular foreign policy disaster since the Iraq War itself.

The No 10 memo now raises fresh doubts over US claims that previous attacks against al-Jazeera staff were military errors.

In 2001 the station's Kabul office was knocked out by two "smart" bombs. In 2003, al-Jazeera reporter Tareq Ayyoub was killed in a US missile strike on the station's Baghdad centre.

The memo, which also included details of troop deployments, turned up in May last year at the Northampton constituency office of then Labour MP Tony Clarke.

Cabinet Office civil servant David Keogh, 49, is accused under the Official Secrets Act of passing it to Leo O'Connor, 42, who used to work for Mr Clarke. Both are bailed to appear at Bow Street court next week.

Mr Clarke, who lost at the election, returned the memo to No 10.

He said Mr O'Connor had behaved "perfectly correctly".

Neither Mr O'Connor or Mr Keogh were available. No 10 did not comment.

No line up with your hands on your head. You are not allowed to know about such things. :bluelight

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 09:08
Oh dear. Can't talk about this. Sorry officer, give me two minutes to finish typing this. And they tried to push it under the carpet using the official secrets act. Very naughty.

PRESIDENT Bush planned to bomb Arab TV station al-Jazeera in friendly Qatar (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16397937&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=exclusive--bush-plot-to-bomb-his-arab-ally-name_page.html)



No line up with your hands on your head. You are not allowed to know about such things. :bluelight


More quoted Drivel? :tantrum:

datestamp
24th November 2005, 09:13
Yes Phoenix, I'm afraid that as I'm not a journalist, then most news is "quoted". Interesting concept.

datestamp
24th November 2005, 09:28
Oh sorry, and a few more "quotes":
http://news.inq7.net/breaking/index.php?index=3&story_id=57395

It was interesting how Channel 4 news carried the story, confirmed that the Official Secrets Act had been used to block the release of futher info, that the Mirror had given an undertaking not to continue with the story, and that Channel 4 themselves had futher info (from the Independent I think) that they could quote, but which would bring down the wrath of the legal system.

Other than that just "quotes" :eek:

Dundeegeorge
24th November 2005, 09:41
Anyone at all.

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 09:45
:confused: Where's Bovvered when you need him?

datestamp
24th November 2005, 10:14
Shhh. Don't say anything.

http://www.channel4.com/news/special-reports/special-reports-storypage.jsp?id=1198

Mailman
24th November 2005, 10:15
A Government official suggested that the Bush threat had been "humorous, not serious".

But another source declared: "Bush was deadly serious, as was Blair. That much is absolutely clear from the language used by both men."

He said...she said...what a f*cken joke :rollin:

Mailman

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 10:16
Shhh. Don't say anything.

http://www.channel4.com/news/special-reports/special-reports-storypage.jsp?id=1198


Just keep surfing for interesting story's in the press...
Cut and paste someone elses opinion....It makes you sound more inteligent than you really are :eek:

datestamp
24th November 2005, 10:26
I'm afraid Phoenix that this is what we are reduced to. If i had personal inside knowledge of the documents, I couldn't reveal them. All we are left with is a few links to prove that this ever incurred the wrath of the authorities.

If you have no interest in the powers being used to suppress world news, then that's fine. I understand you have more important matters to blather on about, like George Best. Don't let me detain you. :wave: Bye

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 10:30
I'm afraid Phoenix that this is what we are reduced to. If i had personal inside knowledge of the documents, I couldn't reveal them. All we are left with is a few links to prove that this ever incurred the wrath of the authorities.

If you have no interest in the powers being used to suppress world news, then that's fine. I understand you have more important matters to blather on about, like George Best. Don't let me detain you. :wave: Bye

I have interest in the subject. Just no interest in the Daily Mirror's view on it. I would much rather hear yours. :moon:

zathras
24th November 2005, 10:36
I have interest in the subject. Just no interest in the Daily Mirror's view on it. I would much rather hear yours. :moon:

Well have mine instead.

We have a government that is trying to supress the freedom of the press, over an issue which arose while fighting a war which ostensibly was trying to give to another country (among other things) freedom of the press

- go figure

This is just another example of how the ancient freedoms in this country seem to be eroded - to the point that it is not the contents of the memo that is the story, it is the memo itself.

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 10:40
Now that's more like it Zathras!

But this is not a new thing is it?
Government/Countries have always tried a little secret manipulation of International situations, haven't they?

The Lone Gunman
24th November 2005, 10:47
Now that's more like it Zathras!

But this is not a new thing is it?
Government/Countries have always tried a little secret manipulation of International situations, haven't they?How would you know that? The only way we have heard that is because the meeja have told us and you have told us you are not interested in the views expressed on the news, in the press or on the internet, or have you had access to evidence the rest of us have not been privvy to?

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 11:32
How would you know that? The only way we have heard that is because the meeja have told us and you have told us you are not interested in the views expressed on the news, in the press or on the internet, or have you had access to evidence the rest of us have not been privvy to?


Do you only form your opinions from whatever comic you happen to have read this morning?

The Lone Gunman
24th November 2005, 11:37
Do you only form your opinions from whatever comic you happen to have read this morning?No I tend to read around a subject, trim off the top and bottom 10% fanatics and guess at somewhere around the middle of whats left.

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 11:49
No I tend to read around a subject, trim off the top and bottom 10% fanatics and guess at somewhere around the middle of whats left.

So you read more than just the Media properganda!
Congrats and welcome to the real world.
Unlike some of these "Cut'n Paste" junkies on here that think they know about the workings of the world because the "Voice of the Mirror" says so.

The Lone Gunman
24th November 2005, 11:52
So you read more than just the Media properganda!
Congrats and welcome to the real world.
Unlike some of these "Cut'n Paste" junkies on here that think they know about the workings of the world because the "Voice of the Mirror" says so.This might be difficult to understand, but this is a discussion forum. To have any reasonable debate someone has to propose an issue. That is very often a column from a newspaper, sometimes people propose it as brilliant and sometimes they rubbish it, but they post stuff they find interesting and worthy of discussion. Some people post stuff just to wind others up even......

HTH

datestamp
24th November 2005, 13:10
Thanks Lone Gunman, I wasn't trying to wind anybody up, but I know what you mean.

Phoenix:

I am sorry that you are so allergic to cut and paste. Sad.



Unlike some of these "Cut'n Paste" junkies on here that think they know about the workings of the world because the "Voice of the Mirror" says so.


Fraid not. I don't read the Mirror. But I did watch Channel 4 news last night. I could have come on here and said, "somebody thinks something is wrong somewhere". Most intelligent people would say "yer what?".

So I posted the background information that is currently available. As the news article involved the Daily Mirror, unfortunately, some material is shown from the Daily Mirror.

The current "evidence" doesn't prove too much by itself. However, a story such as this would normally provoke the reaction from Whitehall of "No, you are mis-informed". Alternatively, Tony Blair for example would have started legal proceedings in the High Court to protect his "good name", and the whole lot could have slid into sub-judice.

However, the approach of blowing the whistle for the Official Secrets Act is a very bizarre thing to do. I'm sorry that I didn't have hours to sit around on here and explain the subtleties of the matter to you first thing today. But you are obviously such an intelligent chap that you sussed this out for yourself immediately, and your shouts of "More quoted Drivel?" was just a smokescreen just to make us falsely think you might be a rampant retard.

You have now had the background to this story and the chance to discuss some issues arising from it. I certainly don't know the "Truth" in this situation. But I am interested in the use of the Official Secrets Act to hold down a story that in all probability would have been ignored if published in an unfettered manner. I look forward to any further leaks that dribble out of strange corners as this story progresses. It will be of interest to see if the Freedom of Information Act in the States can be of any help in clearing up this matter.

Now go and shout about George Best. You know you want to.

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 13:15
By the way! where did Zathras go?
Probably to copy another interesting piece from the newspaper.
We can all do that.
And in case you haven't noticed (In your little blinkered news scapbook of a world) I am making reasonable debate. This Thread proposed an issue , and I disagreed, only for you and your "Copy and Paste " club to gang up on me and defend the views of the biased Press.
Press freedom is laughable unless you read all, and read well. For the Daily Mirror is biased in its reporting.
That is why I object to the copy and paste from the newspapers directly (any Newspaper!). If you want to bring up a subject then do so in a personal manner, not the lasy arse "GOD is this true" sensational way that is being done here!

It's good night from him!

n5gooner
24th November 2005, 13:21
and it hello to me....

do you not need to take in all sources of information, form your own judgment, post it as a question or remark forming a well rounded conclusion.....



we can all at time's be accused of cut'n'paste on an issue, but in keeping within the traditions of a "discussion" board perhaps the best thing to do is as I have mentioned above, form your own conclusion and post.....bit like I did on the energy subject.....


now Its also goodnight from me.....

The Lone Gunman
24th November 2005, 13:31
And another thing, some of us cut'n'paste because we want others to be able to see the evidence themselves and as we understand that many people on here are reading at work and may be fire walled so can not just click a link. Some people here subscribe and without subscriptions links dont work.

Datestamp: wasnt saying you were a wind up merchant, but I know I am ;)

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 13:34
And another thing, some of us cut'n'paste because we want others to be able to see the evidence themselves and as we understand that many people on here are reading at work and may be fire walled so can not just click a link. Some people here subscribe and without subscriptions links dont work.

Datestamp: wasnt saying you were a wind up merchant, but I know I am ;)


You've worn me down with your argument for copy an paste (You still missed my point totally) So now I'll have to join you!

zathras
24th November 2005, 14:43
By the way! where did Zathras go?
Probably to copy another interesting piece from the newspaper.
We can all do that.

Nope! saw this on C4 News last night. Can't see anything in the Evening Standard but Boris made a valid point about Freedom of the Press in the Telegraph.

To be perfectly honest I'm more bothered about the attempt to muzzle the press than the contents of the memo.

While I can understand suppression if it was to involve the potential to endanger soldiers and/or members of the security services that is not true in this instance. Even more bizarre it would have made Tony look good (as the voice of moderation) and he is surpressing it - and in such a way as to guarantee the maximum embarressment to himself!

So George Bush made a crass and tastless joke. What does that say other than give an insight to the way his mind works? (and incidentally why he was so ready to have a war rather than alternatives).

Phoenix
24th November 2005, 14:56
While not agreeing with some of the methods of the present regime.
Do I detect you are a Tory, and your true objective is to disagree with all things Labour?
You really aren't championing the Press at all are you?
Whilst the press here is far better than in a lot of countries, in a matter of high security, do you really think with Liberal/Labour/Conservative that your Press is trully free?

zathras
24th November 2005, 16:39
While not agreeing with some of the methods of the present regime.
Do I detect you are a Tory, and your true objective is to disagree with all things Labour?
You really aren't championing the Press at all are you?
Whilst the press here is far better than in a lot of countries, in a matter of high security, do you really think with Liberal/Labour/Conservative that your Press is trully free?

What my politics has to do with a government trying to muzzle a supposedly free press I don't know but as you brought it up yes I am a conservative voter.

The problem I have with the current incumbents however is not that they are socialist (if they were I might have respect for their position while not actually agreeing with it), but that is seems to have adopted the worse aspects of the Old Socialist and Tories. In many ways it is not so much Red or Blue as a rather putrid purple. The current regime have done the odd thing that is good. (NMW), I would have said the independence of the BoE but in true NL fashion this is only on the surface. Scratch a little and you find that GB can place his own supports onto the MPC and thereby guide it in it's decisions. I also think that there has been a large dose of incompetants in the way the current government is run - which of course has nothing to do with which side of the political spectrum it is.

For example it seems that it is happy to hobnobb it with big business, introduce a market into the NHS (although in line with it's split personality it seems to have created a half way house that is possibly worse than either position). On the other hand Tax is going up - and likely to go up further and it creates a dependency culture with various tax credits.

And Yes I do think the Press should be free so in your words yes I am championing the free press while acknowledging that sometimes it is not possible for everything to be published. The situation under discussion however is not one of them. It is a report of an event that occured some time ago and no members of the security services or military would be put at risk with it's exposure.

To give an example when a secret does need to be kept. Most of the camera crews which filmed the Iranian Embassy seige knew that the SAS was going in but were asked to switch off the cameras until they actually did (in case the terrorists were watching the news or the television and would get foreknowledge). That is because all freedoms including the freedom of the press must be tempered with responsibility.

You are of course engaging in one of the nastier ways New Labour operates; and this is to attack the messanger rather than the message.

Ask yourself this. Is there a valid reason why a memo detailing a crass joke by a political leader cannot be reported and is that reason sufficient to justify jailing someone for reporting it?

For me the answer is 'No'. ( and I don't need the Mirror, Telegraph or anybody else to tell me that).

DodgyAgent
24th November 2005, 16:48
I am not really sure what Phoenix is trying to do here. Are you a government stooge Phoenix? As for cut and pasting, there is nothing wrong with using it in order to prove a point or as a point of discussion.
As far as I am concerned, socialism thrives on collectivism and therefore by nature it is a controlling ideology. Laissez faire is about individualism which makes the Tories less likely (supposedly) to be as controlling as the Trots.

For me Boris Johnson says it all, if the govt are prepared to go to such lengths to "protect" George Bush then the story must be true.

SupremeSpod
24th November 2005, 16:50
How can you be arrested under "The Official Secrets Act" if like 80% of UK society, you haven't signed it?

threaded
24th November 2005, 19:55
I call bullsh1t on this one: as if Blair could talk Bush out of anything.