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Beware of working in Germany!!!

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    Beware of working in Germany!!!

    In the last years, I have been following some threads here about working as a contractor in Germany, and the problems that the German tax office, the "Finanzamt", loves to create to foreign workers. I have myself worked as a contractor in Germany for many years, and would like to warn all other foreign contractors about the "witch-hunting", ruthless behaviour, and illegal actions, according to international laws and human rights, that the Finanzamt are more than willing to apply on foreign workers - and also on their own people.

    During my time in Germany, I was using a well-kown and respected non-German umbrella company/management agency that had contractors working there for several years. There was never any problems at all until one day, when the Finanzamt suddenly decided that the agency "was based in Germany", which is not true, and that it was liable to pay back the VAT to Germany for all the contractors that it employed. The agency got hold of some good lawyers that have proved that the Finanzamt was wrong. The Finanzamt, being frustrated because they could not get the VAT "back" from the foreign agency, went after the contractors, including me. In this case, I am convinced that the agency and its lawyers got it right and that the Finanzamt got it wrong. The problem is that the Finanzamt is not willing to accept the fact that they are wrong. In the socialistic Germany, it does not matter if you are right. Apparently, only the government agencies, like the Finanzamt, are *always* right because they make their own laws, ignore international laws, and you are a nobody within their country borders. Reason: The socialistic regime in Germany uses the Finanzamt heavily as their milking cow. No matter how, they are desperate to suck as much money as they can, legally or illegally, to feed their regime, and to pay for their astronomically costly bureaucracies, like the Finanzamt.

    I know about one contractor who worked for a long time in Germany, and was about to start on a new contract there. He was also one of the unfortunate ones that did receive a letter from the Finanzamt asking for the VAT for all the previous years that he worked there under the mentioned agency. One day, the Finanzamt froze his bank account, without giving any reason whatsoever. He did not even receive a bill or a warning about having to pay back the VAT. It came just suddenly and unexpected. A few days later, his account was emptied by the Finanzamt. They just confiscated the funds in his personal bank account, still without sending him any bills or payment orders. And yes, there was nothing wrong about the funds in his bank account as it was salary and savings paid legally in Germany. Understandably enough, he decided to cancel the new work contract in Germany, and is avoiding any contract jobs there.

    I know many contractors who have worked in Germany, and also other people who live there, and the stories that I have heard about the Finanzamt are true and very scary. Many of the tactics used by the Finanzamt are immoral, and most likely illegal in civilised countries. I know about two cases of people who live in Germany, are not wealthy, and struggling with their finances. Still, because they owed some €400, the Finanzamt froze their bank accounts and confiscated anything left in the accounts, making their lives even more miserable. In a civilised country, no government will freeze your bank account unless you are a *major* criminal. The way the German government behaves is uncivilised, ruthless, and immoral. Unfortunately, the German government has not changed much in their behaviour from the Nazi days or from the Stasi days. Germany IS a police state, and I could write a long list of what I know about Germany that makes it this Nazi-Stasi police state.

    For all the contractors out there: Think twice before going to Germany.

    -MonaLizzard-

    #2
    Amateur. If you don't know the rules before you work abroad, you shouldn't go.
    Listen to my last album on Spotify

    Comment


      #3
      Key rules:
      Dont have your company income paid into an account in the county you are working in.

      Dont have a tax residence in the country you are working in.

      Dont buy financial products from a salesman.

      Dont answer any questions unless you have to.

      Take a break a bit less than every 3 months.




      PZZ

      Comment


        #4
        Troll...see threads in the other areas of this board.

        FYI, I've been contracting in Germany for many years and have never had a problem with the Finanzamt basically because I have followed German laws. Umbrella and management companies have always been a very grey, bordering on black, area here which is when a UK agency tried to get me to use one I resisted and went the correct way: use a local tax advisor, set yourself up as a freiberüfler or selbstständig and you should have no problems.

        (I could tell you about the system I've just finished for the Finanzamt here but then they would have to kill me )
        Brexit is having a wee in the middle of the room at a house party because nobody is talking to you, and then complaining about the smell.

        Comment


          #5
          I can't believe you lot are slating MonaLizzard!

          If what is happening in Germany is true (and I have no doubt it is), then it is a sign of what is starting to happen over here.

          HMRC already have the power to freeze your bank account, extract money, tap your phone, apply tax retrospectively. How long before they are given a completely free reign?

          I do wonder how the Finanzamt get away with it, considering they are answerable to Human Rights legislation?
          'Orwell's 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual'. -
          Nick Pickles, director of Big Brother Watch.

          Comment


            #6
            You should be angry at the well respected "Umbrella" company. The Finanzamt is just collecting taxes. If a German umbrella did the same in the UK, it would be no different, HMRC would be down on them like a ton of bricks. Evading VAT is not a particularly clever thing to do.

            In fact Germany isn't as bad as the UK, because their IR35 rule is quite feeble compared to the UK. German National Insurance isn't considered a tax, so if you evade that, all your get is a back demand for 50% of it.

            Unfortunately unscruplous agents and tax evasion experts, screw the contractors.

            I spent 5 years contracting in Germany, it really is no problem if you operate your own company or register as a freelance, with tax rates comparable to the UK and the possibility to offset all your travel expenses.

            Good luck, but consider suing the b****** that got you in this mess in the first place.
            Last edited by BlasterBates; 13 November 2009, 08:18.
            I'm alright Jack

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by BlasterBates View Post
              German National Insurance isn't considered a tax, so if you evade that, all your get is a back demand for 50% of it.
              Really?..sounds odd!

              But you're right don't to Germany everyone, especially Munich, you're absoloutely guaranteed to get stung there!

              That way there'll be more jobs for me, who plans to do things (nearly) all above board and live in great city with low crime, great infrastructure and slim non chav residents.

              Avoid Germany at all costs

              Comment


                #8
                Could you be more specific here? I know many people watching this forum having similar problems recently.

                What's the agency?
                What's the MC?
                Which state did you contracted and registered?

                If you don't comfortable giving the name, just describe them, e.g where they are located or what's the first name of the company. With help of the clues like that we can guess who they actually are.

                I am currently in touch with two guys, one is close friend of mine, visited recently.

                Both worked with same famous accountant, Mr.H, near Frankfurt.

                As far as I see, regardless what agency or management company you work with, if you ever worked with Mr.H, you are in deep shiit.

                I know and see there are still hundreds of contractors using MCs in Germany, but only those who crossed paths with Mr.H are having problems.

                It's pretty normal that F-amt seize assets. Even people having their tax returns delayed for a day or two might get their account freeze.

                1. Just don't and never keep money in German Konto. Except some small money for errands.

                2. Never never use credit accounts (overdraft credits / or they call dispo credit konto in Germany). It's an important detail, F-amt CAN and WILL take money from your overdraft account and you will be in debth to bank.
                Now in Germany, most banks opening 10,000 euros credit line for almost everyone. So even you have zero balance, F-Amt may take 10,000 euros and leave you alone with the bank.
                Last edited by SalsaFever; 13 November 2009, 13:19.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Read This Carefully If You Ever Contracted In Germany And Used Mr.h As Accountant

                  If you ever contracted in Germany and used Mr.H and MCs, read this carefully.

                  I know 2 people recently raided by famt who worked with Mr.H before. I also worked with same accountant, so I expect a visit very soon.

                  1. There are investigations open for 'ALL' clients of Mr.H (those worked with him but never used MCs should not worry)
                  2. I logically guess Mr.H is actively helping famt to save his own arrse and most likely will testify against you
                  3. Any emails you sent to Mr.H is now with f-amt and being used against you. (check what you sent him and save those emails somewhere secure, just to know what you told him, may help your defense)
                  4. If you are in Germany, very very soon you will be visited, so keep your apartment and office desk clean.
                  5. Contact local lawyers, ask if they are available for such visits, write down their number and call them when you are visited.
                  6. Never ever face it alone. These people are arrogant and always tell lies and thread you to get information. They use psychological scare tactics to break your patience.
                  7. Immediately obtain a legal insurance covering intentional business crime protection + arrest coverage. (search on google U-Haft protection) Because once they knocked your door, there will be a long legal battle, you better be protected to bear the cost.
                  8. <removed> (people in UK is indeed receiving letters demanding tax)
                  9. If you can, just leave Germany for a while. When de-registering (abmeldung), leave them a correct address, it's better to keep communication channel open. Then you know if there is something going on against you like an arrest order etc just to prevent unpleasant surprises in the future.

                  If you never worked with Mr.H and contracting in Germany:

                  1. you are probably safe for now. But be always be alerted.
                  2. never ever use the accountants suggested by MCs.
                  3. I see a very very dangerous pattern now: After Mr.H busted, MCs are referring contractors to an accountant lady in South Germany. So she is very risky at the moment, avoid it all costs, because most likely she will be targeted by famt very soon. Always use a local accountant who never know and suspect anything.
                  Last edited by SalsaFever; 15 December 2009, 13:39. Reason: removed number 8

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by MonaLizzard View Post
                    In the last years, I have been following some threads here about working as a contractor in Germany, and the problems that the German tax office, the "Finanzamt", loves to create to foreign workers. I have myself worked as a contractor in Germany for many years, and would like to warn all other foreign contractors about the "witch-hunting", ruthless behaviour, and illegal actions, according to international laws and human rights, that the Finanzamt are more than willing to apply on foreign workers - and also on their own people.

                    During my time in Germany, I was using a well-kown and respected non-German umbrella company/management agency that had contractors working there for several years. There was never any problems at all until one day, when the Finanzamt suddenly decided that the agency "was based in Germany", which is not true, and that it was liable to pay back the VAT to Germany for all the contractors that it employed. The agency got hold of some good lawyers that have proved that the Finanzamt was wrong. The Finanzamt, being frustrated because they could not get the VAT "back" from the foreign agency, went after the contractors, including me. In this case, I am convinced that the agency and its lawyers got it right and that the Finanzamt got it wrong. The problem is that the Finanzamt is not willing to accept the fact that they are wrong. In the socialistic Germany, it does not matter if you are right. Apparently, only the government agencies, like the Finanzamt, are *always* right because they make their own laws, ignore international laws, and you are a nobody within their country borders. Reason: The socialistic regime in Germany uses the Finanzamt heavily as their milking cow. No matter how, they are desperate to suck as much money as they can, legally or illegally, to feed their regime, and to pay for their astronomically costly bureaucracies, like the Finanzamt.

                    I know about one contractor who worked for a long time in Germany, and was about to start on a new contract there. He was also one of the unfortunate ones that did receive a letter from the Finanzamt asking for the VAT for all the previous years that he worked there under the mentioned agency. One day, the Finanzamt froze his bank account, without giving any reason whatsoever. He did not even receive a bill or a warning about having to pay back the VAT. It came just suddenly and unexpected. A few days later, his account was emptied by the Finanzamt. They just confiscated the funds in his personal bank account, still without sending him any bills or payment orders. And yes, there was nothing wrong about the funds in his bank account as it was salary and savings paid legally in Germany. Understandably enough, he decided to cancel the new work contract in Germany, and is avoiding any contract jobs there.

                    I know many contractors who have worked in Germany, and also other people who live there, and the stories that I have heard about the Finanzamt are true and very scary. Many of the tactics used by the Finanzamt are immoral, and most likely illegal in civilised countries. I know about two cases of people who live in Germany, are not wealthy, and struggling with their finances. Still, because they owed some €400, the Finanzamt froze their bank accounts and confiscated anything left in the accounts, making their lives even more miserable. In a civilised country, no government will freeze your bank account unless you are a *major* criminal. The way the German government behaves is uncivilised, ruthless, and immoral. Unfortunately, the German government has not changed much in their behaviour from the Nazi days or from the Stasi days. Germany IS a police state, and I could write a long list of what I know about Germany that makes it this Nazi-Stasi police state.

                    For all the contractors out there: Think twice before going to Germany.

                    -MonaLizzard-
                    Same in Holland. The most important thing is to have a qualified, reputable accountant from one of the bigger accounting firms that caters for SME's. In Holland, that's GIBO, who are members of Fiduciary International; I'm sure they have members in Germany. Basically tax officials and government officials don't believe a word you say, as you are a nasty tax evading foreign businessperson (in their eyes). They do trust accountants from firms which are reputable, as they hire those accountants themselves when they want audits on companies. German and Dutch accountants also know the tax services inside out, as many of them worked there while qualifying. In fact, lots of tax officials are doing European accounting qualifications in the knowledge theat they'll walk into 100k plus jobs at accounting firms with their tax experience.

                    I've said it before and shall say it again; when in Europe, do not try to deal with tax authorities on your own. Do not try to save money on bookkeepking or accountancy; get the best you can afford and given the complex tax systems it will repay itself.
                    Last edited by Mich the Tester; 13 November 2009, 13:04.
                    And what exactly is wrong with an "ad hominem" argument? Dodgy Agent, 16-5-2014

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