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FarmerPalmer
29th December 2009, 20:23
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1239051/LEO-McKINSTRY-Sorry-join-liberal-wailing-heroin-traffickers-deserve-die.html#ixzz0b5K2ySQm

eliquant
29th December 2009, 20:40
48% of daily mail voters voted 'No', is this the mindless face of a future Tory Britain ?

Peoplesoft bloke
29th December 2009, 21:40
I don't agree with the death penalty on the grounds that if it's wrong to murder people (and I think it is), it isn't doesn't become right when the state does it.

That said I have zero sypathy for the dead bloke who was the author of his own misfortune to a point and the remainder was due (apparently) to ill health - them's the breaks - some people die of heart disease.

What is sickening is the behaviour of Brown. He was happy to have our won boys in blue crsuh any demos and dissent when the Chinese visited, and to allow their henchmen to run "security"; the only reason he's said anything now is that he fears the popular press and media branding him as heartless if he doesn't. If he's so concerned about Human Rights in China, there are a few thousand other cases he ought to be raising.

Not that it would make a difference - why the flip does any sane person think the Chinese would listen to us? Why should they?

Gonzo
29th December 2009, 21:58
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1239051/LEO-McKINSTRY-Sorry-join-liberal-wailing-heroin-traffickers-deserve-die.html#ixzz0b5K2ySQmWhich bit of that is that you agree with?

The bit about someone who breaks local laws when they travel abroad should expect to receive local punishments? I don't have any issues with that.

Or the bit about the answer to solving the ills of British society is to live in a totalitarian state? It probably would work but here are some downsides with that that I would not be keen on.

Or the bit about the prohibition of recreational narcotics not being effective for the 100 years that it has been tried so what is needed is more prohibition..... Don't even get me started.

grey_lady
29th December 2009, 22:08
Mental illness, human rights etc

OwlHoot
29th December 2009, 22:11
When I checked this morning, every one of the scores of people who had replied to the BBC's "Have Your Say" were in favour of the guy's execution, and the most forthright expressions of that view had dozens of recommendations.

But checking there just now, one finds:




Have Your Say service not available

We are having serious technical problems with the Have Your Say software which our engineers are working to fix.

We hope to restore the service as soon as possible.

We apologise for any inconvenience.

Well, well, fancy that :eyes

SueEllen
29th December 2009, 23:42
Not that it would make a difference - why the flip does any sane person think the Chinese would listen to us? Why should they?

It's common for drug smuggling Brits whose cases get noticed in the media to be given a pardon by countries that execute drug smugglers. So instead of a death sentence they get life in prison.

However in those cases life means the rest of their life served in a hell hole, not our 8 to 30 years in prisons that get more lax as you come near the end of your sentence.

In addition if the drug smuggling Brit is lucky they may be able after a few years of foreign prison be allowed to serve the rest of their life sentence in a British prison.

One thing that puzzles me is the refusal to allow the relations to bury the body. Surely it saves the Chinese money getting his relations to bury him?

OwlHoot
29th December 2009, 23:47
One thing that puzzles me is the refusal to allow the relations to bury the body. Surely it saves the Chinese money getting his relations to bury him?

In China they recycle body parts of executed felons for those who need donor organs.

Cliphead
29th December 2009, 23:59
If any of you fckwts knew anything about Bipolar Disorder then perhaps you wouldn't see the situation in the black and white terms you're posting in.

Capital punishment is abhorrent regardless of the circumstances and your obvious prejudice or ignorance of mental health issues is worthy of the deepest despair.

NickFitz
30th December 2009, 03:03
If any of you fckwts knew anything about Bipolar Disorder then perhaps you wouldn't see the situation in the black and white terms you're posting in.

Capital punishment is abhorrent regardless of the circumstances and your obvious prejudice or ignorance of mental health issues is worthy of the deepest despair.

WHS, although even more shameful than the comments on here is the fact that the Daily Mail publishes such hateful and ignorant garbage. Then again, it's only pandering to its hateful and ignorant readers; they're the real problem.

Peoplesoft bloke
30th December 2009, 08:18
If any of you fckwts knew anything about Bipolar Disorder then perhaps you wouldn't see the situation in the black and white terms you're posting in.

Capital punishment is abhorrent regardless of the circumstances and your obvious prejudice or ignorance of mental health issues is worthy of the deepest despair.

As I said , I oppose the death penalty in general. However, China isn't here. What punishment would be accpetable for carrying 4KG of heroin in China for someone:

a) With no mental health problems
b) Someone with Bipolar Disorder

and why are these punishments different?

Diver
30th December 2009, 08:45
If any of you fckwts knew anything about Bipolar Disorder then perhaps you wouldn't see the situation in the black and white terms you're posting in.

Capital punishment is abhorrent regardless of the circumstances and your obvious prejudice or ignorance of mental health issues is worthy of the deepest despair.

I lost my youngest son to drugs, he died because of drug trafficking scumbags like this, I have lived a life of hell for the past 2 years because of these worthless parasites, My wife still cries herself to sleep at night. I watch her break down every time we visit the cemetery, every time she looks at her baby's photograph. I don't care what mental illness they have, I don't care if it's a pregnant teenage girl with Bipolar Disorder. I would Kill the lowlife parasitic scum out of hand and make the world a better place.
When they announced the execution of this drug trafficking scum I was elated, maybe a few more families will be spared the agony that we are going through.

There is No grey area with drug trafficking. I would like to see the death penalty brought in for anybody involved with or supporting the distribution of illegal drugs.

BrilloPad
30th December 2009, 10:20
I lost my youngest son to drugs, he died because of drug trafficking scumbags like this, I have lived a life of hell for the past 2 years because of these worthless parasites, My wife still cries herself to sleep at night. I watch her break down every time we visit the cemetery, every time she looks at her baby's photograph. I don't care what mental illness they have, I don't care if it's a pregnant teenage girl with Bipolar Disorder. I would Kill the lowlife parasitic scum out of hand and make the world a better place.
When they announced the execution of this drug trafficking scum I was elated, maybe a few more families will be spared the agony that we are going through.

There is No grey area with drug trafficking. I would like to see the death penalty brought in for anybody involved with or supporting the distribution of illegal drugs.

No-one here is against the death penalty for drug traffickers who understand what they are doing(please correct me if wrong). But I couldn't kill someone who is too ill/stupid to know what they are doing.

Nevertheless I do understand you point of view : maybe if I had been what you had been through I would agree. I hope I never have to find out.

Hope time makes things better for you and your wife(not sure that it will). :hug:

Tarquin Farquhar
30th December 2009, 10:22
As I said , I oppose the death penalty in general. However, China isn't here. What punishment would be accpetable for carrying 4KG of heroin in China for someone:

a) With no mental health problems
b) Someone with Bipolar Disorder

and why are these punishments different?Because the act committed is different.

Diver
30th December 2009, 10:40
No-one here is against the death penalty for drug traffickers who understand what they are doing(please correct me if wrong). But I couldn't kill someone who is too ill/stupid to know what they are doing.

Nevertheless I do understand you point of view : maybe if I had been what you had been through I would agree. I hope I never have to find out.

Hope time makes things better for you and your wife(not sure that it will). :hug:

He was quite capable of running a business, bringing up children and travelling the world.

I am sick to death of people making excuses for these scumbags. They cause heartache and misery wherever they go. They rob us of our children and tear families apart.
There are No excuses for drug trafficking, even my 4 year old Granddaughter knows that drugs are bad, and knows right from wrong.
If that scumbag was less capable than my 4 year old granddaughter, he would only have been able to get to China to traffic Heroin if he had been accompanied by a carer on a 24hr basis. He wasn't.

The Chinese Government have my wholehearted gratitude for ridding the world of another parasite.

Anybody wishing to dispute with me the death penalty for drug traffickers should first hold Their dead child in their arms, should first hold the child's mother in their arms and listen to their heart rending screams of anguish and watch as the very light of life dims in their eyes. Should feel the emptiness that it leaves inside, an emptiness that will never be filled.

There is no pity in me for these traffickers, no sorrow or regret when they die. These emotions I save for their millions of victims and the families torn apart by these parasites.

How many would have died had that Heroin reached the UK? It is estimated that 2 of our children die for every 10 Kilo of Heroin that reaches the UK.
How many more have to die before the UK takes the stance of China and the Philippines and starts killing off the cause of this plague on humanity.

Platypus
30th December 2009, 10:41
If any of you fckwts knew anything about Bipolar Disorder then perhaps you wouldn't see the situation in the black and white terms you're posting in.

Capital punishment is abhorrent regardless of the circumstances and your obvious prejudice or ignorance of mental health issues is worthy of the deepest despair.

As far as I have read, the only people who said he had bipolar disorder were some friends and family, most of whom only came forward last week.

And to assume that no-one on here, apart from you, has any experience of mental illness is much more ignorant than that which you accuse the rest of the board.

From a UK mental health charity website:

* 1 in 4 people will experience some kind of mental health problem in the course of a year
* About 10% of children have a mental health problem at any one time
* Depression affects 1 in 5 older people living in the community

So I think we can fairly be certain that lots of people posting here know what the fsck they're talking about.

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 10:48
So I think we can fairly be certain that lots of people posting here know what the fsck they're talking about.

Doesn't look like it from here.

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 10:56
There is No grey area with drug trafficking. I would like to see the death penalty brought in for anybody involved with or supporting the distribution of illegal drugs.

No demand no drug trafficking. Anybody using illegal drugs knows the consequences and should be treated the same way as dealers - no grey area.

VectraMan
30th December 2009, 11:03
I am sick to death of people making excuses for these scumbags. They cause heartache and misery wherever they go. They rob us of our children and tear families apart.
There are No excuses for drug trafficking, even my 4 year old Granddaughter knows that drugs are bad, and knows right from wrong.

I hate to say this, and I'd never suggest that anyone should go easy on drug dealers, but your stance suggests once again that the people who take the drugs are entirely blameless victims of the dealers. I know you'd probably say that it's the weak and the vulnerable that are preyed upon by the dealers, and that may be true, but then somebody with bipolar disorder would come under that category, and if the "victims" don't have to be held responsibe for their actions because of their vulnerabilities, then neither does this bloke.

One thing I do agree with from that Daily Mail article is the laughable treatement of Pete Docherty by the courts. Time and time again being virtually let off. As a repeat offender, and as a public figure, they should be making an example of him. Why is he not doing 10 years?

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:03
No demand no drug trafficking. Anybody using illegal drugs knows the consequences and should be treated the same way as dealers - no grey area.

That I don't agree with

There are children as young as eight years old addicted to Heroin in the UK, do you think they knew the consequences when they were given it to try?

These Drug dealers you support are targeting children in the schools.

You need to grow up and start living in the real world

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 11:07
That I don't agree with

There are children as young as eight years old addicted to Heroin in the UK, do you think they knew the consequences when they were given it to try?

These Drug dealers you support are targeting children in the schools.

You need to grow up and start living in the real world

Where did I say I was supporting drug dealers? Seems like dealing with the problem isn't such a grey area as you advocate.

One less dealer or one less junkie just makes the world a better place, I have zero sympathy for either.

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:12
Akmal Shaikh had No history of mental illness

Akmal Shaikh had received No treatment for mental illness.

It was suggested that he may have had a mental Illness

His family tried to use mental illness as a last minute gambit to save his life.


When asked by the Chinese government to produce documentary evidence in support of the claim, They couldn't because there was none and never had been.

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:15
Where did I say I was supporting drug dealers? Seems like dealing with the problem isn't such a grey area as you advocate.

One less dealer or one less junkie just makes the world a better place, I have zero sympathy for either.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1509676/Over-20000-children-are-hooked-on-heroin.html

Over 20,000 children in the UK hooked on Heroin.

You really are a low life scumbag yourself.

And YES! this is a personal attack if you want to contact the admin

norrahe
30th December 2009, 11:16
Akmal Shaikh had No history of mental illness

Akmal Shaikh had received No treatment for mental illness.

It was suggested that he may have had a mental Illness

His family tried to use mental illness as a last minute gambit to save his life.


When asked by the Chinese government to produce documentary evidence in support of the claim, They couldn't because there was none and never had been.

It seems this is the last minute ploy that is brought out anytime that someone from the UK is subject to the death penalty in another country.

If you have committed a crime, in another country, then like everyone else you are subject to the laws of said country.

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 11:17
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1509676/Over-20000-children-are-hooked-on-heroin.html

Over 20,000 children in the UK hooked on Heroin.

You really are a low life scumbag yourself.

And YES! this is a personal attack if you want to contact the admin

Must be down to bad parenting.

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:21
Must be down to bad parenting.

Yes it must be because You really are a pathetic excuse for a human being aren't you?

Platypus
30th December 2009, 11:23
Akmal Shaikh had No history of mental illness

Akmal Shaikh had received No treatment for mental illness.

It was suggested that he may have had a mental Illness

His family tried to use mental illness as a last minute gambit to save his life.


When asked by the Chinese government to produce documentary evidence in support of the claim, They couldn't because there was none and never had been.

Exactly. I just can't believe that anyone would believe the family's ridiculous claims.

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 11:25
Yes it must be because You really are a pathetic excuse for a human being aren't you?

I'm a scumbag because I don't believe in the death penalty? I'm a scumbag because I think dealers and users should be treated equally as harshly?

You're not being very rational.

Andy2
30th December 2009, 11:28
Must be down to bad parenting.

peer pressure is a very powerful thing and
many people start drug becuase of it.

bipolar a very poor made up excuse
I have depression but I dont go around smuggling drugs.
he deserved what he got. good riddance.

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:30
Exactly. I just can't believe that anyone would believe the family's ridiculous claims.

As you said, there are always ridiculous claims:


A man I don't know paid for my trip and asked me to bring back a package, I thought it was a free holiday (For one day). I didn't know it was drugs

Somebody else packed my bags

Somebody I don't know asked me to carry their bag onto the plane for them

Somebody I don't know asked me to deliver this suitcase because their friend had forgotten it

I didn't know there was 20 Kilo of cocaine hidden in the bag (No I didn't notice the difference in weight)

original PM
30th December 2009, 11:32
an interesting debate - which looks like it may sprial out of control.

Fact - trafficking drugs in many countries attracts the death penalty or worse life imprisonment (I mean life).

Fact - if there was no market for the drugs no one would take the risks to traffic them.

Fact - peer pressure and pushers create a market and always target the weak.


Question does this mean that we in the UK should have the death penatly for drug trafficking? and if so is it all drugs, just class a's etc???

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:36
I'm a scumbag because I don't believe in the death penalty? I'm a scumbag because I think dealers and users should be treated equally as harshly?

You're not being very rational.

It is estimated that there could be in excess of 60,000 school children in the UK addicted to drugs

You are advocating that these 60,000 children be put to death or punished in the same way that the dealers are.

I am advocating that the dealers be put to death not the children who are the victims.

Who do you think is the scumbag?

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:40
an interesting debate - which looks like it may sprial out of control.

Fact - trafficking drugs in many countries attracts the death penalty or worse life imprisonment (I mean life).

Fact - if there was no market for the drugs no one would take the risks to traffic them.

Fact - peer pressure and pushers create a market and always target the weak.


Question does this mean that we in the UK should have the death penalty for drug trafficking? and if so is it all drugs, just class a's etc???

Yes we should have the death penalty for class A drugs.

Note: Current research indicates that Dealers are currently adding Heroin and other class A's to Cannabis throughout the UK to make Cannabis/Marijuana more addictive. they are targeting children as well as adults.

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 11:41
It is estimated that there could be in excess of 60,000 school children in the UK addicted to drugs

You are advocating that these 60,000 children be put to death or punished in the same way that the dealers are.

I am advocating that the dealers be put to death not the children who are the victims.

Who do you think is the scumbag?

Children who break the law are subject to juvenile punishments so no change there. Adults however should be held fully accountable for their actions and dealt with severely with no distinction between dealer and user. I don't agree with putting people to death under any circumstances.

So why do you think I'm a scumbag because I would like to see dealers / users dealt with harshly short of execution?

original PM
30th December 2009, 11:44
that is an interesting point about adding Herion etc to gange to make it more addictive - i had heard of a number of different mixtures going on all being sold under the guise of pot.

but in some ways this should point to a reason to legalise pot - then anyone who does have the odd joint knows what they are getting.

if people still want to migrate to the harder stuff well I do not think there is much we can do.

You see problem is there is to much money in it - one mule gets caught and killed plenty more to fill the space.

Diver
30th December 2009, 11:46
Children who break the law are subject to juvenile punishments so no change there. Adults however should be held fully accountable for their actions and dealt with severely with no distinction between dealer and user. I don't agree with putting people to death under any circumstances.

So why do you think I'm a scumbag because I would like to see dealers / users dealt with harshly short of execution?

What you are advocating is equal punishment.

The dealer gets 20 years in prison, the 8 year old child addict gets 20 years in prison.

Or are you now backing down?

Because I stand by my convictions, Death to all drug traffickers, and thank you to the Chinese government for removing another parasite.

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 11:50
What you are advocating is equal punishment.

The dealer gets 20 years in prison, the 8 year old child addict gets 20 years in prison.

Or are you now backing down?

Because I stand by my convictions, Death to all drug traffickers, and thank you to the Chinese government for removing another parasite.

I've already stated that juveniles are dealt with differently and I make no distinction between dealers and users old enough to understand the consequences of their actions. No backing down there just clarifying what I've already said.

As has already been stated if there's no demand then there is no dealing. Users are as much parasites as dealers and both should suffer the same consequences, I stand by that conviction.

original PM
30th December 2009, 11:50
i have to agree with diver

the users only crime is to purchase illegal goods for personal use

this is completely different to the pushers crime of actively managing the distribution line for illegal goods

the drugs laws need reviewing - class c's and possible b's need to become legal and controlled leaving more resources to fight the real life destroying class a's

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 11:52
the users only crime is to purchase illegal goods for personal use


And help perpetuate the cycle and keep the dealers targetting children?

Paying for illegal drugs also helps fund other types of crime, shouldn't that be taken into consideration as well?

original PM
30th December 2009, 11:55
And help perpetuate the cycle and keep the dealers targetting children?

Paying for illegal drugs also helps fund other types of crime, shouldn't that be taken into consideration as well?

No - some of the money you use to buy petrol will be killing someone somewhere - just because it is legal to buy the petrol does not mean your money is not supporitng criminal activity.

Pondlife
30th December 2009, 11:57
i have to agree with diver

the users only crime is to purchase illegal goods for personal use

this is completely different to the pushers crime of actively managing the distribution line for illegal goods

the drugs laws need reviewing - class c's and possible b's need to become legal and controlled leaving more resources to fight the real life destroying class a's

The users only crime(s) are almost certainly not limited to the purchase of illicit product when it comes to addictive class A drugs. Where do you suppose the cash required comes from? The sale of Babyshambles CDs aside.


The second point is touched on here.
(http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-3/)

Jet Setter
30th December 2009, 11:59
This debate has got very spirited, but given the topic it's to be expected.

It's not black and white when it comes to separating dealers and users. Very often they are the same people. A lot of the time the dealers started as users. In the end there's not too many cases where users are made to take drugs.

As Original PM said, if there was no demand and not big wide profit margins then there wouldn't be dealers. In the end the majority of drug users have made a choice to use them. Images of people hanging around schools pushing drugs are simply not true. I've known poor people, rich people, people with good and bad families who have become both users and dealers.

I don't think killing dealers or anyone for that matter is the answer. The death penalty has been proven time and time again not to be a deterrent. It sucks for the people caught but the it doesn't stop the thousands of other mules, rapists and murderers who still commit crimes punishable by death.

Government regulation, decriminalisation could be a way of getting the criminal element out but no politician would ever dare do it.

That's just my two cents

Diver
30th December 2009, 12:02
I've already stated that juveniles are dealt with differently and I make no distinction between dealers and users old enough to understand the consequences of their actions. No backing down there just clarifying what I've already said.

As has already been stated if there's no demand then there is no dealing. Users are as much parasites as dealers and both should suffer the same consequences, I stand by that conviction.

The minimum estimate for drug addicts in the uk is 320,000, with an upper limit of 1.1 million, this figure does not include an estimated 60,000 child users.

So we put all these in prison too?

Get real for gods sake!

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 12:09
The minimum estimate for drug addicts in the uk is 320,000, with an upper limit of 1.1 million, this figure does not include an estimated 60,000 child users.

So we put all these in prison too?

Get real for gods sake!

And how many of those estimated numbers are also dealers? Most users deal to support their habit, you want to execute all of them?

lje
30th December 2009, 12:14
I whole heartedly support the Chinese government's right to have their own laws and their own punishments. They are a very different society and have their own way of handling things. I think the pressure put on them to change these laws is ridiculous.

Having said that I am proud to come from a country where we don't have the death penalty. I feel that if killing is wrong then it is also wrong for society to kill people. The concequence of being found guilty of a crime should be to the benefit of society - either through rehabilitation or through locking people up so that they cannot commit further crimes. It seems to me that punishment appeals to the baser parts of our human nature. What outcome do we want? For people to be punished or to have a safer society? The threat of punishment doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the people commiting crimes - but perhaps rehabilitation and locking people up to protect society can achieve the overall aim?

Diver
30th December 2009, 12:17
And how many of those estimated numbers are also dealers? Most users deal to support their habit, you want to execute all of them?

All dealers (Except Children)

Cliphead
30th December 2009, 12:21
All dealers (Except Children)

And if half the lower estimate are dealers you would execute 160,000 people.

Get real.

Diver
30th December 2009, 12:34
And if half the lower estimate are dealers you would execute 160,000 people.

Get real.

There are an estimated 20-25,000 class A middle and major drug dealers in the UK, several thousand already in prison

Currently, around two-thirds of prisoners are re-convicted within two years of release, 72% OF DRUG DEALERS IMMEDIATELY RE-OFFEND ON RELEASE FROM PRISON.

Kill them and they won't be able to re-offend. I can live with that

original PM
30th December 2009, 12:41
I can see where you are coming from Diver - problem is as quick as you bump em off more will take their place.

ok we could go on a cleansing mission but we all know the people in charge of it would use it to their own ends and it would end being more than just drug pushers who get targetted.

if you just shot all the Chavs that would make the situation a lot clearer I reckon

Diver
30th December 2009, 12:54
I can see where you are coming from Diver - problem is as quick as you bump em off more will take their place.

ok we could go on a cleansing mission but we all know the people in charge of it would use it to their own ends and it would end being more than just drug pushers who get targetted.

if you just shot all the Chavs that would make the situation a lot clearer I reckon

Ok, a caught in the act rule for second offence dealers, if they are caught dealing again, with supporting photographic evidence and witness testimony, just shoot them.

If mules are caught at the entry ports carrying, then just shoot them.

First offenders get 10 years hard labour and serve 10 years, major dealers get 20, not this pathetic 14 years and out in 6 for good behaviour.

FarmerPalmer
30th December 2009, 12:57
There are an estimated 20-25,000 class A middle and major drug dealers in the UK, several thousand already in prison

Currently, around two-thirds of prisoners are re-convicted within two years of release, 72% OF DRUG DEALERS IMMEDIATELY RE-OFFEND ON RELEASE FROM PRISON.

Kill them and they won't be able to re-offend. I can live with that

WHS :smokin

I think China has the right idea (in this case) - you want to kill our citizens and break down society in our country then prepare to die.

Addanc
30th December 2009, 13:04
In China they recycle body parts of executed felons for those who need donor organs.

The Chinese obviously got the idea from read Larry Niven books.

TykeMerc
30th December 2009, 13:09
The Chinese obviously got the idea from read Larry Niven books.

I tend to agree with Larry Niven on this point, it's one way to turn habitual criminals into a benefit to society.

I'm not unhappy that the Chinese have executed a drug runner, good riddance.

Gonzo
31st December 2009, 00:29
This debate has got very spirited, but given the topic it's to be expected.It always does, but since lives get ruined that should not be too much of a surprise.

We've been round this before on here, more than once, and as a result it is tempting to stay out of it but I don't like to see the views which (to me) are too short-sighted prevail by stifling reasoned debate so I will put my head above the parapet once more...


Government regulation, decriminalisation could be a way of getting the criminal element out but no politician would ever dare do it.I don't think that you will ever stop people from taking drugs any more than you could stop people from drinking alcohol (and I can't see any difference between consumption of either for the users, none whatsoever).

The recreational use of narcotics has effectively been illegal in the UK for ninety years now (since 1920). That's four generations and behaviour has not changed. Do you really think it ever will?

If you accept that it wont then the obvious way to reduce the undoubted harm currently being done, which I don't dispute, is to take the manufacture and distribution away from the criminals.

Current policy creates a lucrative business opportunity for criminals who don't care about exploiting or destroying people.

I am not hopeful that there will be a change of approach in my lifetime though because of people's attitudes. To me, and some others, a war is being fought that cannot be won so FFS can people not see that a different approach is needed?

Board Game Geek
31st December 2009, 04:54
Last time I looked, China was a Soveign Country and had its own laws.

They have applied their law legally within their own country.

I don't think any other country has a right to meddle.

NickFitz
31st December 2009, 05:52
Last time I looked, China was a Soveign Country and had its own laws.

They have applied their law legally within their own country.

I don't think any other country has a right to meddle.

And isn't it dreadful, the way other countries criticised the application of the laws of the Sovereign Country of Germany under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, or of the Sovereign Country of the USSR under the leadership of Josef Stalin?

And what about Cambodia? How dare outsiders criticise the actions Pol Pot thought necessary to ensure absolute adherence to the law of that Sovereign Country.

That Mugabe chap also seems to get a bad press for enforcing the laws of his country. You should write to him to express your support, given that the others are no longer available.

Gonzo
31st December 2009, 06:52
And isn't it dreadful, the way other countries criticised the application of the laws of the Sovereign Country of Germany under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, or of the Sovereign Country of the USSR under the leadership of Josef Stalin?

And what about Cambodia? How dare outsiders criticise the actions Pol Pot thought necessary to ensure absolute adherence to the law of that Sovereign Country.

That Mugabe chap also seems to get a bad press for enforcing the laws of his country. You should write to him to express your support, given that the others are no longer available.Yes. I find that these chaps in far off foreign lands do appreciate the white man telling them how they can live better lives. :rolleyes:



I know that it would never occur to you to think of these things in those terms but plenty do.

Where I am now I see resentment of the european obliteration of native culture and most of the time I am inclined to be sympathetic with that.

Sometimes it worries the hell out of me but the situation is not hopeless here. At least religion does not complicate matters.

Happy New Year! :D

Board Game Geek
31st December 2009, 12:47
And isn't it dreadful, the way other countries criticised the application of the laws of the Sovereign Country of Germany under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, or of the Sovereign Country of the USSR under the leadership of Josef Stalin?

And what about Cambodia? How dare outsiders criticise the actions Pol Pot thought necessary to ensure absolute adherence to the law of that Sovereign Country.

That Mugabe chap also seems to get a bad press for enforcing the laws of his country. You should write to him to express your support, given that the others are no longer available.

I thought it would go without saying that perhaps there are some things in which foreign diplomats may comment or threaten diplomatic action, or indeed countries themselves may take action.

Typically when the sovereign law of another country threatens en masse the sovereign law of another and its citizens.

Throwing in mass genocide as an example of why we should interfere is taking the action of intervention to a whole new complex level and not really in context with the example that sparked all this off.

Obfuscation is really not helpful here. Focus on the issue at hand, and that is "was China correct to apply its given jurisprudence in this issue?"

thunderlizard
31st December 2009, 13:15
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1239051/LEO-McKINSTRY-Sorry-join-liberal-wailing-heroin-traffickers-deserve-die.html#ixzz0b5K2ySQm

cool! We get to offer our hasty opinions on no fewer than 6 polls on that page. 6! The world will be set to rights in no time.

threaded
31st December 2009, 16:20
Up until 1970, there were about 7000 heroin addicts in the UK. They got their stuff from the chemists each day.

Then came prohibition and the "war on drugs" (a gift from the Septics once again) and lo! there's an estimated 300,000+ addicts.

The thing about getting it from the chemist is that the tulipe is pure, isn't cut with brick dust, drain cleaner or anthrax, and you get a consistent dose each time. And the other thing is that it's cheap.

Costs about £4 to £5 a day to keep them drugged up & happy without the need to go stealing & burgling all around the place.

That's one of the joys of a democratic system compared to totalitarianism. When a problem is solved in a democracy, TPTB have to mess with it, and generally make things worse. With drugs, everyone can see the year on year improvements from the investments they're making.

sunnysan
31st December 2009, 17:03
1) Did he get a fair trial?
He was caught with 4KGs of heroin in his luggage so guilt did not have to be proved, there was no documentary evidence for mitigating circumstances, so yes.

2) Was China right to execute him
From a moral standpoint it depends on whether you agree with the death penalty or not. According to Chinas laws the death penalty was mandatory for the offence, so yes.

Politics is cynical and I believe that his execution was more about China flexing their muscles. The moment this case got high profile international media attention he was dead man. They may have been able to get him out the back door but it could not happen once knowledge of the case was in the public domain.

I cannot comment on the Chinese media but it seems that in the UK there is more support for the Chinese actions than our governments condemnation of it.