Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - A reprise

[sasguru]

Well after a minor discussion on this last week, I thought: last time I read it I was a mere stripling of 18 years. I didn't like it then, but perhaps I will now. So I went and (re-)bought a copy.
Have to say the bit where he says "... the law of gravity did not exist before Isaac Newton..." (pp 41 of the 25th anniversary edition) and the whole spurious, childish and undergraduate-ish argument around that is the first indication I may have been right in the first place.
I will persist however...
Also I notice the way he treats his kid is tantamount to child abuse e.g. waking him early to go riding at 6.30 in the morning when its freezing cold. Self obsessed, selfish twaddle so far.
I hope it improves.

[NickFitz]

Have to say the bit where he says "... the law of gravity did not exist before Isaac Newton..." (pp 41 of the 25th anniversary edition) and the whole spurious, childish and undergraduate-ish argument around that is the first indication I may have been right in the first place.

You quote him out of context, and dismiss an important point because you don't grasp it. When he asserts that (to paraphrase) that which we perceive as reality (including the physical and mathematical laws governing that reality) is a mental construct, he is absolutely correct. The question of how we can justify our belief in the existence of an external world when we have no access thereto other than through our own internal representation thereof is one of the most fundamental questions in ontology. (It was in an attempt to resolve this question that Plato developed his notions concerning ideal Forms.)

[TimberWolf]

A lot of programmes on TV are likewise much better when you haven't a clue on the subject matter.

[TimberWolf]

I tried reading a philosophy book once and came away disappointed. Has philosophy ever produced anything of any use?

[NickFitz]

Has philosophy ever produced anything of any use?

Logic has been found to be quite useful, at least in certain circumstances.

Edit: oh, and science.

[EternalOptimist]

I tried reading a philosophy book once and came away disappointed. Has philosophy ever produced anything of any use?

well, philosophy is thinking about thinking. If you think the economy can get a bit abtract - thats nothing compared to philosophy.

If all the philosophers in the world went on strike tomorrow - noone would notice. not for a while anyway.

But... it has been said.. what you consider to be common sense (so obvious it doent need to be questioned) was yesterdays cutting edge philosophy. So it might have a role in shaping the culture.

Also, I have noticed over the years, when we have a tricky moral issue, paedophelia for example, forget the law and the politicians, its the Philosophers who give good answers.

The only working, practical philosophers around, in real jobs, are judges.

i think

[TimberWolf]

Logic has been found to be quite useful, at least in certain circumstances.

Edit: oh, and science.

My rough understanding is that science moved away from philosophy a long time ago, to the empirical because the former was carp and getting wrong results. More recently philosophy has tried to make inroads back into science, but science isn't really interested about the navel gazing stuff and carries on regardless. Admittedly logic and science have roots in philosophy. A common ancestor at the very least.

[EternalOptimist]

Well after a minor discussion on this last week, I thought: last time I read it I was a mere stripling of 18 years. I didn't like it then, but perhaps I will now. So I went and (re-)bought a copy.
Have to say the bit where he says "... the law of gravity did not exist before Isaac Newton..." (pp 41 of the 25th anniversary edition) and the whole spurious, childish and undergraduate-ish argument around that is the first indication I may have been right in the first place.
I will persist however...
Also I notice the way he treats his kid is tantamount to child abuse e.g. waking him early to go riding at 6.30 in the morning when its freezing cold. Self obsessed, selfish twaddle so far.
I hope it improves.

what he is saying is that gravity is real to you - thats the way you are trained to think
witch doctors are real to African tribesmen - thats the way they are trained to think
ghosts are real to Indian villagers - thats the way they are trained to think


in the context of the way the brain works, what is actually true, in the sense of laws of phyics, doesnt matter.

[TimberWolf]

well, philosophy is thinking about thinking. If you think the economy can get a bit abtract - thats nothing compared to philosophy.

If all the philosophers in the world went on strike tomorrow - noone would notice. not for a while anyway.

But... it has been said.. what you consider to be common sense (so obvious it doent need to be questioned) was yesterdays cutting edge philosophy. So it might have a role in shaping the culture.

Also, I have noticed over the years, when we have a tricky moral issue, paedophelia for example, forget the law and the politicians, its the Philosophers who give good answers.

The only working, practical philosophers around, in real jobs, are judges.

i think

Can you name a good answer?

[RichardCranium]

My rough understanding is that science moved away from philosophy a long time ago

I should have thought there was a reasonably intact continuum from pre-Socrates philosophy to modern theoretical physics.

This is most amply demonstrated by such barminess as string theory.