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What has the downturn taught you?

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    What has the downturn taught you?

    It's taught me a lot - mainly that I screwed my own career!

    I moved from sales into IT 12 years ago after spending a lot of time and cash on a cobol course. My first role was a y2k code monkey in a blue chip retailer. In the first 3 months I also learnt IMS and DL1 (I know ). Within 6 months I got the opportunity to work on a brand new 2 year project...my new career was flying! I picked up DB2, done business analysis, process designs, requirements gathering, tech specs, coding, testing, implementation, support - basically full SDLC. Everyone was telling me that is so important for your career. A guy that started at the same time as me jumped ship to a bank and stayed as a Y2K code monkey - I thought he was a mug! Little did I know...he is now a VP of some sort earning sh*t loads.

    At the end of the project it got outsourced and the consultancy I worked for got canned. I then went to another large blue chip company within manufacturing. Again I done more coding, learnt Telon (i know ), plenty of BA work, systems analysis, Project Support stuff, testing, Team Leader and Application support manager. I put myself about as much as I could to learn new skills - mainly soft and business. Got a chance to do some Oracle stuff so just as I started to learn that it got binned! Dropped my studies as I thought it's not worth learning unless I am going to use it. Career wise I thought I was sorted and safe as houses. With all round software app experience and 12 years loyal service in two big companies whatever happened I would be alright. Over the years a lot of guys learnt Java and eventually moved on BUT with massive pay cuts. The old school M/F guys used to laugh as they've seen these technologies come and go and reckoned COBOL was for life and the more people moved out of M/F the better as the skill base would shrink and rates would rise. I listened to that cr*p!

    One year ago I got made redundant but wasn't bothered as I was good at what I did. Oh dear.....so I thought. Didn't even see a Cobol job for over 3 months and then I needed Java too. Panic. Decide to work on the Project Support route so studied and got Prince2 then did ITIL V3 foundation and learnt Project 2007. Applied for well over 100 Project Support/Admin roles at a massively reduced rate and not a sniff...in part as I don't have a degree! Seems like 12 years solid experience counts for jack sh*t these days. I've now started looking at BA roles too BUT 80% of them are in banking and finance and unless you have experience then forget it. The other 20% require additional skills such as UML, RUP, AGILE etc all of which I have no experience and all along I thought the BA stuff I did was on the money.

    So it's time to start again from the bottom. I want to go the PM route and can't think of anything else training wise that's gonna help me so maybe time to add another tech skill like Java maybe but doing a course without experience isn't going to get me role. Just wondering if maybe a degree would help more as a colleague of mine who by her own admittance was useless and was made redundant at the same time as me got a Cobol role on the basis of her degree - i applied too and didn't even get an interview and trust me her CV looks like a 5 year old wrote it!

    Anyway boring sob story over - time to keep the faith, keep plugging away and pray things will turn soon and put this nightmare down as a serious wake up call!

    #2
    This really shouldn't be in this section.

    Also I know people in other sectors who have tons of experience but aren't getting jobs because they are up against people with a degree.

    Unfortunately when a recession hits employers take the p*ss.
    "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

    Comment


      #3
      IME, putting yourself through training courses for new skills when the market is tulip, like now, is a waste of your money. Why? Because you have no 'on the job experience' of those skills. And that's what a lot of client want, not a wad of certificates stuck under their noses.

      They dont want to know that you have shelled out cash or, been pro active in getting these new skills, They want 'experience' and training doesnt give you that. Crazy I know but that how it tends to work out. For the benefit of the sockpuppets that troll these forums, yes, its not always that way but more often than not, it is.

      The time to re train is when the market is bouyant since during these times, clients arent \ cant be so picky as jobs are plentiful and we can almost pick and choose.

      Cant say this downturn has taught me anything new. Clients are more pissy and agents jerk you around even more. This time around, I managed to stay in contract for virtually all of the downturn (in fact 'officially, I did!). Now, its a question of making oneself stand out from the masses.

      If it aint working, change the approach. I've made a change and anticipate some results from this. If it doesnt work, I'll change something else.

      In this game, its just a numbers game, whether that's location, rate, presentation etc, etc.
      I couldn't give two fornicators! Yes, really!

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by SueEllen View Post
        Also I know people in other sectors who have tons of experience but aren't getting jobs because they are up against people with a degree.

        Unfortunately when a recession hits employers take the p*ss.
        I know tons of people who have a degree and are very good at their job too.

        Comment


          #5
          Seems to me that your problem is that you are using a scatter gun for gathering skills. Your CV must be a headache to read with all of those skills.

          Do you have more than one CV? Is it a developer CV, BA CV, PM CV?

          I have a generalist skillset but primarily focus on BI. So BI BA, PM, Developer, Manager etc. But it is BI.

          Practical experience is key and being able to talk/demonstrate it.

          Have you thought of taking a perm role?
          What happens in General, stays in General.
          You know what they say about assumptions!

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by MrP View Post
            It's taught me a lot - mainly that I screwed my own career!

            I moved from sales into IT 12 years ago after spending a lot of time and cash on a cobol course. My first role was a y2k code monkey in a blue chip retailer. In the first 3 months I also learnt IMS and DL1 (I know ). Within 6 months I got the opportunity to work on a brand new 2 year project...my new career was flying! I picked up DB2, done business analysis, process designs, requirements gathering, tech specs, coding, testing, implementation, support - basically full SDLC. Everyone was telling me that is so important for your career. A guy that started at the same time as me jumped ship to a bank and stayed as a Y2K code monkey - I thought he was a mug! Little did I know...he is now a VP of some sort earning sh*t loads.

            At the end of the project it got outsourced and the consultancy I worked for got canned. I then went to another large blue chip company within manufacturing. Again I done more coding, learnt Telon (i know ), plenty of BA work, systems analysis, Project Support stuff, testing, Team Leader and Application support manager. I put myself about as much as I could to learn new skills - mainly soft and business. Got a chance to do some Oracle stuff so just as I started to learn that it got binned! Dropped my studies as I thought it's not worth learning unless I am going to use it. Career wise I thought I was sorted and safe as houses. With all round software app experience and 12 years loyal service in two big companies whatever happened I would be alright. Over the years a lot of guys learnt Java and eventually moved on BUT with massive pay cuts. The old school M/F guys used to laugh as they've seen these technologies come and go and reckoned COBOL was for life and the more people moved out of M/F the better as the skill base would shrink and rates would rise. I listened to that cr*p!

            One year ago I got made redundant but wasn't bothered as I was good at what I did. Oh dear.....so I thought. Didn't even see a Cobol job for over 3 months and then I needed Java too. Panic. Decide to work on the Project Support route so studied and got Prince2 then did ITIL V3 foundation and learnt Project 2007. Applied for well over 100 Project Support/Admin roles at a massively reduced rate and not a sniff...in part as I don't have a degree! Seems like 12 years solid experience counts for jack sh*t these days. I've now started looking at BA roles too BUT 80% of them are in banking and finance and unless you have experience then forget it. The other 20% require additional skills such as UML, RUP, AGILE etc all of which I have no experience and all along I thought the BA stuff I did was on the money.

            So it's time to start again from the bottom. I want to go the PM route and can't think of anything else training wise that's gonna help me so maybe time to add another tech skill like Java maybe but doing a course without experience isn't going to get me role. Just wondering if maybe a degree would help more as a colleague of mine who by her own admittance was useless and was made redundant at the same time as me got a Cobol role on the basis of her degree - i applied too and didn't even get an interview and trust me her CV looks like a 5 year old wrote it!

            Anyway boring sob story over - time to keep the faith, keep plugging away and pray things will turn soon and put this nightmare down as a serious wake up call!
            Excellent post & although our skill sets aren't the same, your experience of the world of I.T. is very similar to mine.
            I too left the world of sales after becoming totally disillusioned with the hypocrisy of it all & moved into IT after doing an evening course at my local college. Everything went great for the first few years so I took the plunge into contract work as I'd always wanted to work for myself and again, it went well to begin with. However, since this downturn it's been worry after worry trying to keep working & I certainly don't have the war chest that many on here seem to be able to fall back on.
            One way we do differ though is that I simply cannot go down the route of starting again from the bottom.

            Comment


              #7
              I agree with SueEllen - this should be in General, so I'm going to be a bit harsh here but MrP will thank me in the end.

              Maybe.

              What a pile of crock.




              Mr P is a permie and is thinking like a permie.

              I'm the mirror image of you.

              I started out exactly the same way as you (albeit 15 years before you).

              CIC/COBOL/PL1, no degree.

              12 years ago I moved out of coding because I didn't want to be a coder all of my life, I could see that the newfangled PC languages like VB were the way to go if I wanted to stay.

              The difference is I had a focus and an plan, and the piece of awareness that seems to be the vital difference.

              Unless you are very lucky, changing the course of your career is like changing the course of a supertanker - you have to do it early, you have to recognise that change is going to take some time and you have to realise that little things you do now will make a big difference in 2 years time.

              Because generally it takes 2 years from the moment you decide to change course in your career to the moment you are in your new role.

              I did float around like a butterfly trying a little bit of this and that, until I alighted on ITIL (I was training programmers and moved from there to contract training of Microsoft, a dead-end career if every there was one..).

              My aim was to me an industry-wide respected ITIL consultant.

              So I moved from training microsoft to training ITSM tools (not a big jump), to getting my ITIL foundation, to training ITSM tools as in-house projects, to getting my ITIL Manager's certificate, to training ITIL.

              Then another career shift (because I had A PLAN, remember).

              I took £150pd drop to move from ITIL training to ITIL doing. Got myself in as a junior process bod. At the end of that contract they extended me and doubled my rate...

              And so it went on.

              I've also built up other skills where I could a market for them, requirements gathering, benefits management (I've modified my PLAN slightly...) I'm still not where I want to be, but I'm getting there - this bench is getting a bit hard, but guess what, I'm learning UML and building my portfolio of intellectual property while I'm looking for work, ready for the next upturn.


              So stop feeling sorry for yourself and start thinking like a contractor.

              You have a load of base skills - what are you strongest at, what do you like to do, what does the market need? Don't give up on something after 2 minutes because it doesn't give you instant reward.

              And FFS, get rid of that chip that says 'NO DEGREE' on it - I got rid of mine years ago...

              HTH.
              Last edited by cojak; 5 March 2010, 08:34.
              "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
              - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by BolshieBastard View Post
                IME, putting yourself through training courses for new skills when the market is tulip, like now, is a waste of your money. Why? Because you have no 'on the job experience' of those skills. And that's what a lot of client want, not a wad of certificates stuck under their noses.
                The chicken and egg scenario which I am all too familiar with. However if I just sat on my arse waiting for the upturn then chances are I would still be in the sh*t with my box of skills. I got my first interview last week based on my Prince2 qualification - without it I would not have had a chance. They are aware I have no 'working' experience of it but were glad to hear that I invested time and money in myself rather than sitting at home watching Jeremy Kyle. Prince is different to tech skills though and I would have to agree, in part, that having a Java qualification means nowt without experience. Having said that I have known loads of people who have done a Java/Oracle course and got a job admittedly in buoyant times.

                Not sure where I'm going with this - just feels good to vent my spleen oh and get some opinions.

                Have a good day people.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I started in development doing automation stuff in Access, Excel and VB. I moved across into testing, business analysis and then finally 3 years of project management until January last year, when cutbacks hit I was benched.

                  I had already done PRINCE2 while in work, as well as ISEB Foundation testing before that.

                  I thought this was a good basis to find work in project management elsewhere, but I just didn't win through in about 8 interviews over 5 months of bench time.

                  In the end I got a job doing automation in Excel, with a bit of business analysis.

                  I might be wrong, but from my experience of the downturn I have inferred that developers will always be needed in number, whereas PMs have to have a number of projects across different organisations to be compelling in interview.
                  "take me to your leader"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by MarillionFan View Post
                    Seems to me that your problem is that you are using a scatter gun for gathering skills. Your CV must be a headache to read with all of those skills.

                    Do you have more than one CV? Is it a developer CV, BA CV, PM CV?

                    I have a generalist skillset but primarily focus on BI. So BI BA, PM, Developer, Manager etc. But it is BI.

                    Practical experience is key and being able to talk/demonstrate it.

                    Have you thought of taking a perm role?
                    WHS. Big time...
                    "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
                    - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

                    Comment

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