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View Full Version : Lowering salaries - it's the end of IT as we know it (and I feel fine)



Francko
1st September 2010, 08:13
Is it only my impression or the majority of top IT jobs in London, the ones there were paying 70k-100k, are not there anymore and now they offer only 40-50k for an architect position in Central London requiring quite rare skills? Same, more or less, for contracts with rates of 300 quid per day and less.

Is it because of so many people on the bench or a combination of offshoring and all these people on the bench pushing down salaries on a permanent level just as much as any engineering job?

Is it the end of IT as we know it? (And I feel fine) Is IT not worth to deal with any longer (at least on a technical level - but to be fair I don't see greater salaries for PM or analyst positions)?

Or is it just a temporary blip and things will get back to normal in a year or so when the general markets will recover?

What's your general view? Thumbs up or down? Is there still any chance for recovery?

swamp
1st September 2010, 08:26
It is your impression.

Francko
1st September 2010, 08:32
It is your impression.

Perhaps but only considering the grand totals of jobserve there is a definitive decline:


Salary (£ per annum)
Not Specified (1148)
Below £15000 (31)
£15000-£20000 (109)
£20000-£25000 (301)
£25000-£30000 (545)
£30000-£40000 (953)
£40000-£50000 (950)
£50000-£75000 (867)
£75000-£100000 (360)
Above £100000 (111)

Rate (£ per hour) *Calc. Daily
Not Specified (1238)
Below £10 (43)
£10-£20 (63)
£20-£30 (71)
£30-£40 (138)
£40-£50 (178)
£50-£65 (180)
£65-£80 (141)
£80-£100 (88)
Above £100 (11)

Pogle
1st September 2010, 08:33
It is not the impression I am getting in my area

SupremeSpod
1st September 2010, 08:38
It is not the impression I am getting in my area

WSS++;

Pondlife
1st September 2010, 08:49
Without going in to the whole tacky "look at my wad", I'd say rates aren't too bad at the mo - not as high as they have been but still way better than other areas of business. More importantly, I don't know anyone in my area who's benched which is a better sign (IMHO).

I know that (at least one of) the big consultancies have been forced to drop rates but that's just to reflect 'savings' from offshoring as far as I can see. Although I'd expect that reduction to be reflected in the rates offered to any onshore contractors they need.

On the whole I'm still happy doing what I do.




and Franko, welcome back. :smile

minestrone
1st September 2010, 09:11
I work in a team of 60% bobs and 25% poles, they said to me that they just cannot hire a UK person, there is none out there.

Everyone I know is in work, rates that I have been offered are some of the highest I have ever been offered and I believe that the market is going to get much better.

AtW
1st September 2010, 09:14
Everyone I know is in work, rates that I have been offered are some of the highest I have ever been offered and I believe that the market is going to get much better.

:rollin:

Francko
1st September 2010, 09:18
and Franko, welcome back. :smile

:emb Cheers. I have always been around lurking despite not writing much.

MarillionFan
1st September 2010, 09:19
IMO the rates are lower

compared to when I started contracting by the second year I was on 100k. I am still on the same rate even though I am now older, fatter and more experienced. Based on both of the former I should be on another 30%

MaryPoppins
1st September 2010, 09:22
Without going in to the whole tacky "look at my wad"

:yay:

Francko
1st September 2010, 09:23
I work in a team of 60% bobs and 25% poles, they said to me that they just cannot hire a UK person, there is none out there.

Everyone I know is in work, rates that I have been offered are some of the highest I have ever been offered and I believe that the market is going to get much better.

So maybe jobserve is not a proper indication of the market as it used to be.

However I remember the good old days where you typed a search with keyword java in 5 days and you got 20-30k jobs. Now you get 2k at worst.

Like in the other recession, people with good running rates did not even realise how tough was outside. I might have been away from the UK market for too many years now but I can tell you that at first glance it doesn't look like anything at all what it used to be from the outside. And come on, we all agreed now to this, even the government - T H E R E I S N O S K I L L S H O R T A G E, many qualified local people are on a bench.

Francko
1st September 2010, 09:25
IMO the rates are lower

compared to when I started contracting by the second year I was on 100k. I am still on the same rate even though I am now older, fatter and more experienced. Based on both of the former I should be on another 30%

I think 30% at least must be the increase in your obesity. You should definitely demand more than that.

doodab
1st September 2010, 09:40
compared to when I started contracting by the second year I was on 100k. I am still on the same rate even though I am now older, fatter and more experienced. Based on both of the former I should be on another 30%

If contractors were purchased by the pound I'd be retiring soon.

alreadypacked
1st September 2010, 09:55
Without going in to the whole tacky "look at my wad", I'd say rates aren't too bad at the mo - not as high as they have been but still way better than other areas of business. More importantly, I don't know anyone in my area who's benched which is a better sign (IMHO).
On the whole I'm still happy doing what I do.


Oh please, better than our current path :sick

Lumiere
1st September 2010, 10:10
Everyone I know is in work, rates that I have been offered are some of the highest I have ever been offered and I believe that the market is going to get much better.

WHS

Agents are desperately begging for leads ..

sasguru
1st September 2010, 10:13
So maybe jobserve is not a proper indication of the market as it used to be.

However I remember the good old days where you typed a search with keyword java in 5 days and you got 20-30k jobs. Now you get 2k at worst.

Like in the other recession, people with good running rates did not even realise how tough was outside. I might have been away from the UK market for too many years now but I can tell you that at first glance it doesn't look like anything at all what it used to be from the outside. And come on, we all agreed now to this, even the government - T H E R E I S N O S K I L L S H O R T A G E, many qualified local people are on a bench.

You're still banging on about commodity "skills"? Are you thick?
When are you going to realise that knowing Java programming is not really adding value since any man and his dog can do it?
Salaries are not falling for hard and rare skills and never will.

AtW
1st September 2010, 10:25
Salaries are not falling for hard and rare skills and never will.

What's your hard and rare skill? Whatever it is, that's clearly not keeping your gob shut :eyes

shaunbhoy
1st September 2010, 10:32
What's your hard and rare skill? Whatever it is, that's clearly not keeping your gob shut :eyes

He has a 10-inch tongue, and can suck a golf ball through 4 metres of garden hose.

:laugh

markinbrussels
1st September 2010, 10:38
architect Search (http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q=architect&id=0&lid=1853)
architect Search (http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contract.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q=architect&id=0&lid=1853)
London Technical Architect Contracts, Contractor Rates for Technical Architect Jobs (http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contracts/london/technical%20architect.do)

markinbrussels
1st September 2010, 10:43
I might have been away from the UK market for too many years now but I can tell you that at first glance it doesn't look like anything at all what it used to be from the outside. And come on, we all agreed now to this, even the government - T H E R E I S N O S K I L L S H O R T A G E, many qualified local people are on a bench.

You live in CH? Why would you like to return to the UK?

Francko
1st September 2010, 10:43
Salaries are not falling for hard and rare skills and never will.

I used the search with the keyword "java" merely as indication of how little demand there is as normally "java" appears in most of the technical jobs (you can replace with .Net or similar if you wish).

I was instead talking about salaries/rates for what is a rare skills.

Let's take, ironically, as an example, SAS:

Find sas Jobs with jobserve.com (http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=55AB5FEFE0E49B4157)


Salary/Rate: £400/DAY
Salary/Rate:£45k - £65k + Bonus + Benefits
Salary/Rate:38k - 48k annual GBP
Salary/Rate:c£450 per day
Salary/Rate:£350 - £450 per Day
Salary/Rate:£350 - 400 per Day


Do they look like the same as few years ago? Certainly not.


Salary (£ per annum)
Not Specified (22)
Below £15000 (0)
£15000-£20000 (3)
£20000-£25000 (16)
£25000-£30000 (30)
£30000-£40000 (48)
£40000-£50000 (42)
£50000-£75000 (29)
£75000-£100000 (12)
Above £100000 (5)
Rate (£ per hour) *Calc. Daily
Not Specified (42)
Below £10 (0)
£10-£20 (0)
£20-£30 (4)
£30-£40 (11)
£40-£50 (14)
£50-£65 (6)
£65-£80 (0)
£80-£100 (0)
Above £100 (0)

shaunbhoy
1st September 2010, 10:46
Let's take, ironically, as an example, SAS



There is something you don't see a lot of.............unless the discussion has wandered in the direction of the "Pitfalls of first cousins marrying".

:laugh

Francko
1st September 2010, 10:48
You live in CH? Why would you like to return to the UK?

Hi Mark, we spoke once. :wave:

Still in Bern?

Well I am in the most beautiful part of CH but the unluckiest one for jobs and salaries. A difficult choice and we are still struggling to understand what's best. But one thing, I'd definitely prefer the UK instead of the german/french part of CH (unless I could do partial commuting like now but that's not easy to get nowadays, at least from the start). ;)

Scrag Meister
1st September 2010, 11:15
Below is a sample of some data I have saved from IT Jobs watch for my skillset over the last couple of years.

Each set of 3 is 3 diff roles that I can do.

The job count at the worst point over the last few years was 9 for my best match, that was depressing.

Now as you can see they are a lot higher, rates seem to be a tad down on March 2010, but it isn't all bad, demand seems to be up if the ad count is any indicator.

I know its not concrete stats of any sort but gives a good idea.

Avg Change in
Rate job ads Ad Count Date
£410 -20.08%
£386 -26.37% 10/12/2008
£421 -24.16%

£525 10.52% 309
£550 37.50% 73 17/03/2010
£550 15.78% 57

£520 21.63% 390
£525 23.52% 106 01/09/2010
£525 23.52% 75

TestMangler
1st September 2010, 11:34
Stop 'doing' stuff and start 'managing' it :laugh

Rates are as good as they've ever been (almost) and LBGHBOSFAX swallowing up every contractor in the country, there's no shortage of stuff to do. :wave:

aussielong
1st September 2010, 11:42
You're still banging on about commodity "skills"? Are you thick?
When are you going to realise that knowing Java programming is not really adding value since any man and his dog can do it?
Salaries are not falling for hard and rare skills and never will.

Having java as your only skill is not going to get you much unless you are very very good.

But i'm getting 800 pound a day for java programming with an intermediate IB skill set so it aint all bad. This is in Aus. I was offered 750/day for a couple of contracts in London about 6 months ago so it doesnt appear to be too bad there for java programmers!

Svalbaard
1st September 2010, 11:42
You're still banging on about commodity "skills"? Are you thick?
When are you going to realise that knowing Java programming is not really adding value since any man and his dog can do it?
Salaries are not falling for hard and rare skills and never will.

I can't. Hence my post on the technical board yesterday. But then again, I'm not just "any man". Incidentally, neither can my dog - although she does have a good go at C#.

I'm not sure it's as bad out there as people make out. I'm on a very decent rate for my skillset and am receiving 3 or 4 calls a week from agencies about my availability. Mainly in London though, so I wouldn't be interested anyway.

Best of luck.

sasguru
1st September 2010, 12:05
I used the search with the keyword "java" merely as indication of how little demand there is as normally "java" appears in most of the technical jobs (you can replace with .Net or similar if you wish).

I was instead talking about salaries/rates for what is a rare skills.

Let's take, ironically, as an example, SAS:

Find sas Jobs with jobserve.com (http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=55AB5FEFE0E49B4157)


Salary/Rate: £400/DAY
Salary/Rate:£45k - £65k + Bonus + Benefits
Salary/Rate:38k - 48k annual GBP
Salary/Rate:c£450 per day
Salary/Rate:£350 - £450 per Day
Salary/Rate:£350 - 400 per Day


Do they look like the same as few years ago? Certainly not.


Salary (£ per annum)
Not Specified (22)
Below £15000 (0)
£15000-£20000 (3)
£20000-£25000 (16)
£25000-£30000 (30)
£30000-£40000 (48)
£40000-£50000 (42)
£50000-£75000 (29)
£75000-£100000 (12)
Above £100000 (5)
Rate (£ per hour) *Calc. Daily
Not Specified (42)
Below £10 (0)
£10-£20 (0)
£20-£30 (4)
£30-£40 (11)
£40-£50 (14)
£50-£65 (6)
£65-£80 (0)
£80-£100 (0)
Above £100 (0)


Pointless post. "SAS" is a massive package with many different capabilities. Your skills can range from being a data step programmer to being a DW analyst/architect to running advanced analytics for a major corp.
In terms of training you can be an IT person, a statistician or a PhD in mathematics or none of the above.
All these things determine your rate and salary: programming has low barriers to entry and so rates are low, being a statistician or advanced mathematican has high barriers to entry and so rates are much higher.
In every business area the demand for low value-added commodity skills (e.g. average code monkey) as opposed to strategic high value-added skills has fallen and will continue to fall.

gingerjedi
1st September 2010, 12:18
Is this thread about lower IT salaries in general or specific niche skills?

Someone seems to think it's the later but I don't see where the OP made that distinction?

:rolleyes:

TimberWolf
1st September 2010, 12:25
I'm going to have a good go at looking for a contract when I'm back from holiday and now that Labour are gone. Hmm, what areas should I "enhance" my CV? I think every place I've contracted is bobified now.

AtW
1st September 2010, 12:27
In terms of training you can be an IT person, a statistician or a PhD in mathematics or none of the above.

That must be you right? :wink

AtW
1st September 2010, 12:28
I'm going to have a good go at looking for a contract when I'm back from holiday and now that Labour are gone. Hmm, what areas should I "enhance" my CV? I think every place I've contracted is bobified now.

Why won't you write in it that you never collaborated with them and avoided paying your fair share of taxes? :eyes

Scrag Meister
1st September 2010, 12:34
Is this thread about lower IT salaries in general or specific niche skills?

Someone seems to think it's the later but I don't see where the OP made that distinction?

:rolleyes:

Implied by posting SAS job results.

TimberWolf
1st September 2010, 12:37
Why won't you write in it that you never collaborated with them and avoided paying your fair share of taxes? :eyes

:spel unfair

Apart from that, that more or less sums up the Labour years for me.

gingerjedi
1st September 2010, 12:37
Implied by posting SAS job results.

...on page 3 after the OP was called 'thick'.

:rolleyes:

Francko
1st September 2010, 12:39
Is this thread about lower IT salaries in general or specific niche skills?

Someone seems to think it's the later but I don't see where the OP made that distinction?

:rolleyes:

Sorry if that was not clear. My point was that even jobs with niche skills which used to command a very high salary are now just in the range of an average engineering job, meaning that the golden age for IT has definitely come to an end. Of course, if you are not even specialised and have just very generic IT skills then you are paid as much as an admin job nowadays.

AtW
1st September 2010, 12:41
the golden age for IT has definitely come to an end.

This has happened way before end of 90s.

HTH

Francko
1st September 2010, 12:44
This has happened way before end of 90s.

HTH

I wasn't talking about sasguru sexual life.

sasguru
1st September 2010, 12:48
...on page 3 after the OP was called 'thick'.

:rolleyes:

If you think you can make a long-term profitable living with average code monkey skills, yes, I'd say you're thick.
Thick because you're ignoring globalisation, the government's policy of allowing cheap labour through ICT, the fact that any job that requires you sitting at a desk and not interacting with live people can be done by a cleverer person on the other side of the world and the fact that major corps don't see IT development as a strategic policy, rightly or wrongly.

If given the above you don't adapt and moan about falling rates and disappearance of jobs you are by definition, thick, and hence deserve your fate.

HTH, but IDI.

gingerjedi
1st September 2010, 13:01
If you think you can make a long-term profitable living with average code monkey skills, yes, I'd say you're thick.
Thick because you're ignoring globalisation, the government's policy of allowing cheap labour through ICT, the fact that any job that requires you sitting at a desk and not interacting with live people can be done by a cleverer person on the other side of the world and the fact that major corps don't see IT development as a strategic policy, rightly or wrongly.

If given the above you don't adapt and moan about falling rates and disappearance of jobs you are by definition, thick, and hence deserve your fate.

HTH, but IDI.

If everyone could adapt so easily then your 'in-demand-super-duper-niche-skills' wouldn't be so niche now would they.

Stop being such a pompous *****.

sasguru
1st September 2010, 13:04
If everyone could adapt so easily then your 'in-demand-super-duper-niche-skills' wouldn't be so niche now would they..

Quite. The world isn't fair. Some can adapt better than others.
But in the UK one has all the tools to adapt: the Open University, evening classes etc.
There really is no excuse.




Stop being such a pompous *****.

I decsribed the world as it is. If you want to call that pompous you need a dictionary.

HTH

alreadypacked
1st September 2010, 13:21
Quite. The world isn't fair. Some can adapt better than others.
But in the UK one has all the tools to adapt: the Open University, evening classes etc.There really is no excuse.


:spel Going permi and getting trained up!

doodab
1st September 2010, 13:26
Salaries can and do fall for "rare" skills. Sometimes they just become obsolete. Sometimes this occurs precisely because companies adopt technologies that are easier and cheaper to get the staff for.

BTW, one can adapt and thrive and still moan about having to do so.

Mich the Tester
1st September 2010, 13:29
If everyone could adapt so easily then your 'in-demand-super-duper-niche-skills' wouldn't be so niche now would they.

Stop being such a pompous *****.
I think the point is that the niche skills of today will become commoditized when people realise there's money to be made from them, so somehow you have to stay ahead of or at least at the front of the game.

Methodical testing used to be a niche skill where you could earn a shitload of dosh without being particularly bright; now it's a commodity and system tests are often done in low wage countries. The testers who do well now are those who can critically analyse a business process or set of processes, regardless of whether the system is ready or not, and advise customers on business risks and possible measures, as well as advising project managers on how to gain acceptance for their system, or program managers on how to avoid or mitigate project risks. You can also be expected to help clients conform to quality requirements of their clients, which can be quite complex when a clientco is supplying to aerospace, defense or automotive industries. This all involves skills and knowledge that go far beyond the specification of test cases, which should basically be a given if you hire a tester.

I get CVs from unemployed testers every day, but at the same time it's difficult to find the testers that my client really needs; the unemployed ones are the guys who can do no more than write test scripts and execute them (badly). Bob can do that for a quarter of the price (badly).

SupremeSpod
1st September 2010, 13:29
I'm going working for accenture in India.


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Mich the Tester
1st September 2010, 13:30
I'm going working for accenture in India.
I'd sooner top myself. Or flip burgers.

doodab
1st September 2010, 13:34
I'd sooner top myself. Or flip burgers.

Ooh I don't know about that. They probably pay quite a good wage by local standards, you could have curry whenever you wanted, and from what I've seen of Accenture's outsourced infrastructure services you would have plenty of opportunity to improve things.

SupremeSpod
1st September 2010, 13:35
I'd sooner top myself. Or flip burgers.

I'd rather wash Elephants in the Ganges.

I was being ironic.

Mich the Tester
1st September 2010, 13:36
Ooh I don't know about that. They probably pay quite a good wage by local standards, you could have curry whenever you wanted, and from what I've seen of Accenture's outsourced infrastructure services you would have plenty of opportunity to improve things.

Go on. Be a twat.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hxdnntF5Nso/SyWCS1p9a3I/AAAAAAAAGqE/omZcEzOJYk4/s320/AccentureTiger.jpg

shaunbhoy
1st September 2010, 13:37
I'd rather wash Elephants in the Ganges.



There much call for that?

:tongue

SupremeSpod
1st September 2010, 13:38
There much call for that?

:tongue

I must admit to not having researched that role properly...:wink

Mich the Tester
1st September 2010, 13:41
I must admit to not having researched that role properly...:wink

http://faculty.mc3.edu/RDGREENW/elephant9.JPG

alreadypacked
1st September 2010, 13:46
I'm going working for accenture in India.

I will be out in Jan to give you some training :glasses

SupremeSpod
1st September 2010, 13:46
http://faculty.mc3.edu/RDGREENW/elephant9.JPG

Thanks for the training material!

Added to CV.

Btw, those f**kers are bigger than me, and better behaved... :eyes

doodab
1st September 2010, 13:46
Go on. Be a twat.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hxdnntF5Nso/SyWCS1p9a3I/AAAAAAAAGqE/omZcEzOJYk4/s320/AccentureTiger.jpg

Hmm, suicide or a lifetime of golf. Tough call.

SupremeSpod
1st September 2010, 13:47
I will be out in Jan to give you some training :glasses

Have you washed many elephants?

Mich the Tester
1st September 2010, 13:55
Hmm, suicide or a lifetime of golf. Tough call.Golf is like watching grass grow and getting tired while you're at it. I'd choose the gallows.

OwlHoot
1st September 2010, 19:06
IMO the rates are lower

compared to when I started contracting by the second year I was on 100k. I am still on the same rate even though I am now older, fatter and more experienced. Based on both of the former I should be on another 30%

WHS.

I have been on the same rate, give or take, since I started contracting 12 years ago.

So either I'm being shafted big time, and agents are cackling with glee behind my back, or there has been a steady decline in real terms.

As most contractors I've discussed this with agree, I'd say the latter (er, my latter your fatter) is more likely. :eyes

gingerjedi
1st September 2010, 21:17
WHS.

I have been on the same rate, give or take, since I started contracting 12 years ago.

So either I'm being shafted big time, and agents are cackling with glee behind my back, or there has been a steady decline in real terms.

As most contractors I've discussed this with agree, I'd say the latter (er, my latter your fatter) is more likely. :eyes

You must be a right thicko, have you not heard of the OU?

HTH but IDI

Sasguru

:rolleyes:

Lockhouse
2nd September 2010, 07:21
WHS.

I have been on the same rate, give or take, since I started contracting 12 years ago.

So either I'm being shafted big time, and agents are cackling with glee behind my back, or there has been a steady decline in real terms.

As most contractors I've discussed this with agree, I'd say the latter (er, my latter your fatter) is more likely. :eyes


This is most definitely the case. I'm on a fair old wedge, but it's the same fair old wedge I was on about 10 years ago for doing the same role when it was a great wedge. It's no different for permies - I was asked to go permanent at an Inv Bank in 1997 for 85K as a developer and turned it down. The salary wouldn't be much different today. Globalisation innit.

cojak
2nd September 2010, 07:41
It's better out there than it was at the beginning of the year.

Rates are still depressed, but the work is out there and the jobs are on jobserve.

And I'm not seeing ludicrous rates of £120pd for my roles.

I finished my contract last Friday and I've had my first interview yesterday. I didn't manage a single interview in 5 months in the 1st half of the year.

pastalista
2nd September 2010, 07:46
Hi All

I've been a contractor for 28 years and have seen the skyrocketing rates and the nosediving rates thing a few times now (end of the 80's / early 90's, post 09/11 etc) and this is following the same pattern.

Rates have been good for quite a while - obviously this is not from a detailed study, just local knowledge, friends, people I know in the recruitment business and big consultancy firms and so on but they did drop a bit last year. They seem to be climbing, slowly again now but I think it will be a while before we are back to anything like a "seller's market".

The big six consultancy firms are about to have their throats cut by the Government and have already taken some hits. They are laying people off and these folks are desperate to work, hence rates and salaries begin to fall. As these people clear off the market, rates will go back up again.

I myself am earning the lowest rate I've had since 1998 but that is partly for other reasons (a job I really wanted and love, close to home, "company" car (yes, as a contractor!) but I do get called about jobs on the kind of rates I was earning a couple of years ago. I am a Programme Director and my usual rates are between £800 and £1200 per day depending on the usual things. I am getting calls for jobs around £900 - £1000 a day again now, although not as many as I used to get (maybe 1 a week before, now maybe 1 a month).

We'll get there again, don't worry.

Good luck all

AtW
2nd September 2010, 07:59
Real world inflation has gone up big time recently, so effectively rates dropped.

SupremeSpod
2nd September 2010, 08:21
Real world inflation has gone up big time recently, so effectively rates dropped.

That has got to be this week's "No Sh!t Sherlock" winner.

Flash of the bleeding obvious time again, eh AtW?

Andy2
2nd September 2010, 12:39
Oracle dba jobs seem to have completely disappeared

I am on the bench since 3 months