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pacharan
22nd February 2011, 11:51
I get the impression there is a degree of glossing over going on here. This crisis has to be the biggest threat to the west in decades and yet the Libya thing is 3rd from the top in the Telegraph. Why??? Not a lot of mention of the Iranian warships in the Suez canal either.

sasguru
22nd February 2011, 12:03
Why is it a threat to the West? Surely despotic leaders in Arab countries causing resentment in their populations is a threat to the West and removing said despots is a good thing?

DimPrawn
22nd February 2011, 12:05
I'm more worried by my Mid Life Crisis. It's lasted a decade and shows no signs of stopping.

:eyes

Clippy
22nd February 2011, 12:11
I'm more worried by my Mid Life Crisis. It's lasted a decade and shows no signs of stopping.

:eyes

How is it manifesting itself?

Churchill
22nd February 2011, 12:11
Why is it a threat to the West? Surely despotic leaders in Arab countries causing resentment in their populations is a threat to the West and removing said despots is a good thing?

It all depends on who the new leaders are.

They might have been despots but they were our despots(most of 'em anyway).

pacharan
22nd February 2011, 12:12
Why is it a threat to the West? Surely despotic leaders in Arab countries causing resentment in their populations is a threat to the West and removing said despots is a good thing?


Civil war in Libya & effect on oil prices for starters.

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 12:16
I don't know what the new leaders will be like but they'll certainly be a threat to us if they think we're a threat to them.

DimPrawn
22nd February 2011, 12:17
How is it manifesting itself?

Flashy cars, celebrity lifestyle, string of young beautiful women every week, exotic travel, private yachts.

Usual stuff.

Paddy
22nd February 2011, 12:20
I get the impression there is a degree of glossing over going on here. This crisis has to be the biggest threat to the west in decades and yet the Libya thing is 3rd from the top in the Telegraph. Why??? Not a lot of mention of the Iranian warships in the Suez canal either.

or this

Iran Navy saves ship from Hong Kong attacked by pirates


The naval forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran have thwarted an attempt by pirates to seize a commercial ship from Hong Kong in the Red Sea.

In response to the distress call, Iran's 12th fleet came to the vessel's rescue. The pirates fled the scene following the clash with the Iranian forces and the ship continued on its way.

In line with international efforts against piracy, the Iranian Navy has been conducting anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden since November 2008 to safeguard maritime trade and in particular ships and oil tankers owned or leased by Iran.

Iran Navy saves ship from Hong Kong attacked by pirates (http://www.payvand.com/news/11/feb/1042.html)

DimPrawn
22nd February 2011, 12:20
Anyone else think "despot" sounds like "tosspot"?

:laugh

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 12:22
Anyone else think "despot" sounds like "tosspot"?

:laugh

No more than it sounds like Des Lynam.

sasguru
22nd February 2011, 12:30
Dreaming of Flashy cars, celebrity lifestyle, string of young beautiful women every week, exotic travel, private yachts.

Usual stuff.

FTFY

DimPrawn
22nd February 2011, 12:31
FTFY

It's cheaper and less tiring.

:laugh

sasguru
22nd February 2011, 12:31
Civil war in Libya & effect on oil prices for starters.

That's a short term problem.
Is Libya a big supplier of oil in any case compared with Saudi, Iraq and Kuwait?

wobbegong
22nd February 2011, 12:40
Flashy cars, celebrity lifestyle, string of young beautiful women every week, exotic travel, private yachts.

Usual stuff.

Sounds like you're not having a problem sleeping, though.

:rolleyes:

Paddy
22nd February 2011, 12:44
That's a short term problem.
Is Libya a big supplier of oil in any case compared with Saudi, Iraq and Kuwait?

No, Top oil producers in millions of barrels per day
1. Saudi Arabia 10.72 2. Russia 9.67 United States 8.37 4. Iran 4. 5. Mexico 3.71

pacharan
22nd February 2011, 12:59
That's a short term problem.
Is Libya a big supplier of oil in any case compared with Saudi, Iraq and Kuwait?

Depends if It's a protracted conflict. Libya is worlds 12th largest producer, major supplier to Spain and Italy I believe. All depends if the Saudis have the reserves they claim to have. According to Wikileaks, they're overestimated by 40%

sasguru
22nd February 2011, 13:06
Depends if It's a protracted conflict. Libya is worlds 12th largest producer, major supplier to Spain and Italy I believe. All depends if the Saudis have the reserves they claim to have. According to Wikileaks, they're overestimated by 40%

Oil is a red herring.
Personally I think its good news that the despots are falling.

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 13:19
Really?

I thought it was black gold.

No, that was one of those Motown collection LPs.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
22nd February 2011, 13:23
Oil is a red herring.
Personally I think its good news that the despots are falling.

It's easy for all of us to be sat here saying what we think is good news and bad news, imagine having to actually live under the tyranny of gaddafi, saddam, saudi king, mubarek, israel, etc etc etc. All those guys being supported by our goverements for decades. Everybody looks at it from a self-interest angle, why don't we consider how much suffering the people of these countries have endured? Don't they deserve some freedom and opportunity like us guys? At the end of the day people in those countries have the same aspirations and determination as we do it's just they have had to endure severe oppression and have been denied the opportunity. It's time we all showed a little sympathy as we will never understand the kind of torture these guys have had to take for so many years.

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 13:32
It's easy for all of us to be sat here saying what we think is good news and bad news, imagine having to actually live under the tyranny of gaddafi, saddam, saudi king, mubarek, israel, etc etc etc. All those guys being supported by our goverements for decades. Everybody looks at it from a self-interest angle, why don't we consider how much suffering the people of these countries have endured? Don't they deserve some freedom and opportunity like us guys? At the end of the day people in those countries have the same aspirations and determination as we do it's just they have had to endure severe oppression and have been denied the opportunity. It's time we all showed a little sympathy as we will never understand the kind of torture these guys have had to take for so many years.

Absolutely right. I also think that most of them couldn't give a stuff about Israel, 'the West', 'imperialism' and all that, but want to be able to work for a reasonable wage, put food on the table and chat freely with their mates without some secret police bastard listening in on whatever they say, and would like a government that spends revenues on stuff like healthcare, water provision and infrastructure instead of subsidizing terrorists and buying bloody great yachts and mansions for top officials. They'd rather their kids learn about maths, spelling, languages and science at school than having them indoctrinated by some dictator every day or being forced to work in sweatshops for next to nothing.

Perhaps I'm just guessing, but having visited quite a few developing countries, islamic and otherwise, I get the impression that most of their citizens are basically alright folks who want a chance to lead a peaceful life.

TimberWolf
22nd February 2011, 13:46
Cameron is straight in there:

Cameron tries to forge a new foreign policy | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23925566-cameron-tries-to-forge-a-new-foreign-policy.do)

does he run on Energizer batteres?

pacharan
22nd February 2011, 13:48
Absolutely right. I also think that most of them couldn't give a stuff about Israel, 'the West', 'imperialism' and all that, but want to be able to work for a reasonable wage, put food on the table and chat freely with their mates without some secret police bastard listening in on whatever they say, and would like a government that spends revenues on stuff like healthcare, water provision and infrastructure instead of subsidizing terrorists and buying bloody great yachts and mansions for top officials. They'd rather their kids learn about maths, spelling, languages and science at school than having them indoctrinated by some dictator every day or being forced to work in sweatshops for next to nothing.

Perhaps I'm just guessing, but having visited quite a few developing countries, islamic and otherwise, I get the impression that most of their citizens are basically alright folks who want a chance to lead a peaceful life.


Yes , but a lot of them do seem rather cross with Israel. That isn't apparent in the current protests but nonetheless it's there. Thats the thing that worries me about this so called people power.

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 13:52
Yes , but a lot of them do seem rather cross with Israel. That isn't apparent in the current protests but nonetheless it's there. Thats the thing that worries me about this so called people power.

Well, indeed, but I wonder what their priorities are. If you're struggling to put food on the plate, pay the bills and keep out of trouble for having an opinion about something, Israel would seem quite an abstract issue.

I don't think it's the people you should fear; it's the 'leaders' that might take advantage of the situation.

sasguru
22nd February 2011, 13:52
Yes , but a lot of them do seem rather cross with Israel. That isn't apparent in the current protests but nonetheless it's there. Thats the thing that worries me about this so called people power.

Why is that surprising given the way Israel behaves?
You reap what you sow.

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 13:53
Why is that surprising given the way Israel behaves?
You reap what you sow.

Not always. I sowed some basil last spring and only got stinging nettles.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
22nd February 2011, 14:00
Well, indeed, but I wonder what their priorities are. If you're struggling to put food on the plate, pay the bills and keep out of trouble for having an opinion about something, Israel would seem quite an abstract issue.

I don't think it's the people you should fear; it's the 'leaders' that might take advantage of the situation.

Perhaps many of them feel so strongly against Israel for the same reason many non-muslims are so strongly against Israel? Perhaps that is further enhanced because of their own suffering and feeling a connection with other oppressed people?

Can you blame them for their anger? Not only is the west supporting their cruel leaders but constantly supporting (with Billions in "Aid") countries who also pour out their own oppression against other arabs.

All I can say is put yourself in their situation, how would you feel? Forget the difference in religion or belief just look at it in a completely neutral and unbiased way and what the reality is like on the ground.

There is no justification for terrorism, but there is justification for the feeling of hatred towards western imperialism and all that it entails.

Ignis Fatuus
22nd February 2011, 14:26
Not always. I sowed some basil last spring and only got stinging nettles.Ah, you were looking for Galatians: Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

But you got Genesis: Cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee.

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 14:28
Ah, you were looking for Galatians: Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

But you got Genesis: Cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee.I quite like nettle soup, but not every day.

shaunbhoy
22nd February 2011, 14:54
There is no justification for terrorism, but there is a recurring theme in this whereby rather than confronting your own problems, it is easier to simply just lay the blame at the door of the western democracies.

FTFY

:eyes

Can't understand why this tedious thread is still hanging around like a bad smell either.

:tumble:

amcdonald
22nd February 2011, 15:05
No, Top oil producers in millions of barrels per day
1. Saudi Arabia 10.72 2. Russia 9.67 United States 8.37 4. Iran 4. 5. Mexico 3.71

So why hasn't Mexico been invaded yet ?

gricerboy
22nd February 2011, 15:25
FTFY

:eyes

Can't understand why this tedious thread is still hanging around like a bad smell either.

:tumble:

Perhaps you'd rather hear about my woes at the Burton Bradstock Gay Fun Run Shauney

Mich the Tester
22nd February 2011, 15:27
Perhaps you'd rather hear about my woes at the Burton Bradstock Gay Fun Run Shauney

I think that might be worth a thread of it's own.

gricerboy
22nd February 2011, 15:36
I think that might be worth a thread of it's own.

I shall be submitting a full report shortly and I will be available for a full debriefing.

Churchill
22nd February 2011, 15:37
I shall be submitting a full report shortly and I will be available for a full debriefing.

Before or after the breakfast turnover? :sick

OwlHoot
22nd February 2011, 15:39
I shall be submitting a full report shortly and I will be available for a full debriefing.

:spel debagging

(with a liberal supply of Old Spice aftershave to pour on your goolies :eek: )

Incognito
22nd February 2011, 15:47
Perhaps many of them feel so strongly against Israel for the same reason many non-muslims are so strongly against Israel? Perhaps that is further enhanced because of their own suffering and feeling a connection with other oppressed people?

Can you blame them for their anger? Not only is the west supporting their cruel leaders but constantly supporting (with Billions in "Aid") countries who also pour out their own oppression against other arabs.


Most people I know are pro Israel rather than Anti. Having been to Israel and quite a few middle eastern countries as well, I know which side I'm on and they don't wear towels on their head.

The Torah's far older than any other brainwashing artefact you may care to refer to. It was a Jewish land when the Arabs and the 'West' were still barking at the moon. Yerushalayim has always been seen as the capital of the Kingdom of David.

Israel has every right to protect their own land in what ever way they see fit.

Sanctions? They are allowed goods which cannot be used against Israel, this includes medicine and food.
The wall? It serves its purpose, no more suicide bombings

A lot of these problems wouldn't exist if the Arabs hadn't started rattling their sabres in '67. You wouldn't have the issue over East Jerusalem as it would still have been in Jordanian hands. The way Israel see it is tough tulip. They are deliberately building settlements in the east as they are attempting (through peaceful means) to ensure that Jerusalem is seen as a complete Jewish city by the time any peace accord is signed.

Perhaps it would be easier if people knew something about what they commented on. Too many leftist tree huggers will have you believe Israel bad and everything Arab good. Well that's not quite how it works. You visit Jerusalem and you'll find that the Israelis actually cede authority and management of the temple mount to the Islamic Waqf (google them AssG as no doubt you haven't a clue) and again as an other example of bending over to the Arabs, the only people allowed to pray on the mount are muslims. No matter it is religiously relevant to three religions.

Read the following article, it disproves most of the BBC crap that the left spout over here:

http://www.solomonstemple.com/2010/10/60-minutes-joins-the-arab-propaganda-bandwagon-on-jerusalem/

Try visiting Israel sometime and being objective. I did and I crossed quite freely into the West Bank and certainly didn't see much evidence of an oppressed, impoverished people there.

Israel wants to get on by itself, the Arabs just want to destroy Israel. Who's the aggressor?

Churchill
22nd February 2011, 15:58
Most people I know are pro Israel rather than Anti. Having been to Israel and quite a few middle eastern countries as well, I know which side I'm on and they don't wear towels on their head.

The Torah's far older than any other brainwashing artefact you may care to refer to. It was a Jewish land when the Arabs and the 'West' were still barking at the moon. Yerushalayim has always been seen as the capital of the Kingdom of David.

Israel has every right to protect their own land in what ever way they see fit.

Sanctions? They are allowed goods which cannot be used against Israel, this includes medicine and food.
The wall? It serves its purpose, no more suicide bombings

A lot of these problems wouldn't exist if the Arabs hadn't started rattling their sabres in '67. You wouldn't have the issue over East Jerusalem as it would still have been in Jordanian hands. The way Israel see it is tough tulip. They are deliberately building settlements in the east as they are attempting (through peaceful means) to ensure that Jerusalem is seen as a complete Jewish city by the time any peace accord is signed.

Perhaps it would be easier if people knew something about what they commented on. Too many leftist tree huggers will have you believe Israel bad and everything Arab good. Well that's not quite how it works. You visit Jerusalem and you'll find that the Israelis actually cede authority and management of the temple mount to the Islamic Waqf (google them AssG as no doubt you haven't a clue) and again as an other example of bending over to the Arabs, the only people allowed to pray on the mount are muslims. No matter it is religiously relevant to three religions.

Read the following article, it disproves most of the BBC crap that the left spout over here:

http://www.solomonstemple.com/2010/10/60-minutes-joins-the-arab-propaganda-bandwagon-on-jerusalem/

Try visiting Israel sometime and being objective. I did and I crossed quite freely into the West Bank and certainly didn't see much evidence of an oppressed, impoverished people there.

Israel wants to get on by itself, the Arabs just want to destroy Israel. Who's the aggressor?

You know that house you live in?

God says it belongs to me. I'll be over to collect next week.

lilelvis2000
22nd February 2011, 16:13
The Israel thing is a red herring. The Arabs real agenda is to figure out how to rid themselves of the Palestinians on their soil. They have shuffled them around for decades on the premise that Israel would be gone. When that didn't happen they tell them they will get right of return. That won't happen either.

I get the feeling that a lot on Israel is just stirred up by the politicians as way to partially legitimize themselves, or to gain re-election.

What maybe a problem for Israel in the future is that this could lead - if all the countries leaders do fall - to a re-establishment of a sort of Khalifat. but that could be decades away. Israel itself shouldn't be too worried though...a few nukes tossed over will sort'em out anyway.


Israel has every right to protect their own land in what ever way they see fit.

I wondered where Gaddafi was getting his ideas from.

Jog On
22nd February 2011, 16:50
Gadaffi latest:


A defiant and angry Col Gaddafi said that he had brought glory to Libya. As he had no official position in Libya from which to resign, he would remain the head of the revolution, he said


The protesters had been given drink and drugs, he said, frequently shouting and banging his fist on the table as the address continued.

He called on "those who love Muammar Gaddafi" to come on to the streets in support of him, telling them not to be afraid of the "gangs".

"Come out of your homes, attack them in their dens. Withdraw your children from the streets. They are drugging your children, they are making your children drunk and sending them to hell," he said.

"If matters require, we will use force, according to international law and the Libyan constitution," and warned that the country could descend into civil war if protests continued.



BBC News - Defiant Gaddafi refuses to quit amid Libya protests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12544624)

How the flip do people like this get into power in the first place?

This is not going end well..:frown

amcdonald
22nd February 2011, 16:53
I wondered where Gaddafi was getting his ideas from.

From Tony Blair surely

shaunbhoy
22nd February 2011, 17:20
Perhaps you'd rather hear about my woes at the Burton Bradstock Gay Fun Run Shauney

Oddly enough, I was in Burton Bradstock last saturday sorting a works problem out. The one close to Bridport I assume you mean?
Didn't see any shirtlifters mind you, or else I'd have run them over!!!! :happy

suityou01
22nd February 2011, 17:51
From Tony Blair surely

:spel Bilderberg

amcdonald
22nd February 2011, 18:57
:spel Bilderberg

Oh sorry you mean John Major then, trying to currie favour as usual

Incognito
22nd February 2011, 19:10
You know that house you live in?

God says it belongs to me. I'll be over to collect next week.

Reread pedant. Nowhere do I say god says it's there land. My argument is they were there first.

I don't do god, unlike you my trouser rolling friend.

Spacecadet
22nd February 2011, 19:24
Reread pedant. Nowhere do I say god says it's there land. My argument is they were there first.


You did mention the Torah as evidence that Israel belongs to the Jews which is as good as saying that God gave it to them.

The Israel problem is actually due to the fact that they didn't have their own country there for over 2000 years. Since Israel is originally supposed to have been formed some 4000 years ago it's not been in existence longer than it has.

Incognito
22nd February 2011, 20:03
You did mention the Torah as evidence that Israel belongs to the Jews which is as good as saying that God gave it to them.

The Israel problem is actually due to the fact that they didn't have their own country there for over 2000 years. Since Israel is originally supposed to have been formed some 4000 years ago it's not been in existence longer than it has.

What I said was:



The Torah's far older than any other brainwashing artefact you may care to refer to. It was a Jewish land when the Arabs and the 'West' were still barking at the moon. Yerushalayim has always been seen as the capital of the Kingdom of David.


If you take from that statement that I'm saying god gave it to them then you're an idiot. Clearly. Either that or deliberately twisting my words.

The Book of Genesis and the Torah are known to predate Christ. Not thought, known. They may be full of pish, but they quite clearly refer to the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. There is no mention of the word Palestine.

Spacecadet
22nd February 2011, 20:15
What I said was:



If you take from that statement that I'm saying god gave it to them then you're an idiot. Clearly. Either that or deliberately twisting my words.

The Book of Genesis and the Torah are known to predate Christ. Not thought, known. They may be full of pish, but they quite clearly refer to the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. There is no mention of the word Palestine.

Why mention the Torah if you're not going to bring God into the conversation. The Torah is a religious text which may be used along side other historical evidence, I would not accept it as a primary source.

If you're going down this route then maybe you should have a look at America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and all the other countries which have been built on top of other peoples land.

xoggoth
22nd February 2011, 21:17
Can't wait until they storm the palace and start throwing stones at him, just to see the inevitable Sun Pun Headline - Gadaffi duck!

Actually Daffy Duck would have made a great leader, though not quite as wise as Bugs Bunny obviously.

amcdonald
22nd February 2011, 21:18
If you're going down this route then maybe you should have a look at America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and all the other countries which have been built on top of other peoples land.

Quite, it all belongs to Cthulhu really

That which eternal lies, in strange eons even death may die...

Spacecadet
22nd February 2011, 21:34
Quite, it all belongs to Cthulhu really

That which eternal lies, in strange eons even death may die...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zpvkluF-N7s/SLROqrQJlFI/AAAAAAAAAPI/Crrkngsp28o/s400/cthulhu-evolution.png

NorthWestPerm2Contr
23rd February 2011, 10:08
Most people I know are pro Israel rather than Anti. Having been to Israel and quite a few middle eastern countries as well, I know which side I'm on and they don't wear towels on their head.

The Torah's far older than any other brainwashing artefact you may care to refer to. It was a Jewish land when the Arabs and the 'West' were still barking at the moon. Yerushalayim has always been seen as the capital of the Kingdom of David.

Israel has every right to protect their own land in what ever way they see fit.



Your picture represents what you write on these forums i.e. bollox.

How about I changed "Israel has every right to protect their own land in what ever way they see fit" to:
"Palestine has every right to protect their own land in what ever way they see fit"

Everybody bangs on about Israel having a right to exist and it does exist. But what about Palestines right to exist - thats whats actually under threat. Dont give me some trash about Israel being ancient etc. Before Palestine became Israel Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived in that land. What would be fair is if everybody in that area of Israel/Palestine lived under one state as equal citizens. Let's not forget that Palestine is not just a Muslim issue, there are plenty of Christians and Christian sites e.g. Bethleham.





Sanctions? They are allowed goods which cannot be used against Israel, this includes medicine and food.
The wall? It serves its purpose, no more suicide bombings



Yep your definitely an extreme zionist. Just being a zionist would not be sufficient for saying the above crap. Just out of interest could you give me a statistic for the number of Israelies killed vs the number of Palestinians? Or is it just that 100 Palestinians dying for every Israeli is too much? Yep their blood is much cheaper isn't it?




A lot of these problems wouldn't exist if the Arabs hadn't started rattling their sabres in '67. You wouldn't have the issue over East Jerusalem as it would still have been in Jordanian hands. The way Israel see it is tough tulip. They are deliberately building settlements in the east as they are attempting (through peaceful means) to ensure that Jerusalem is seen as a complete Jewish city by the time any peace accord is signed.

Perhaps it would be easier if people knew something about what they commented on. Too many leftist tree huggers will have you believe Israel bad and everything Arab good. Well that's not quite how it works. You visit Jerusalem and you'll find that the Israelis actually cede authority and management of the temple mount to the Islamic Waqf (google them AssG as no doubt you haven't a clue) and again as an other example of bending over to the Arabs, the only people allowed to pray on the mount are muslims. No matter it is religiously relevant to three religions.



The Israeli state is definitely good to its own jewish people and that is something that arab leaders should strive to achieve and something the arabs are trying to achieve themselves through peaceful protest. Additionally it is a good thing that Israel values its own jewish citizens so much and treats every jewish persons blood as sacred. However all humans should be equal from that point of view - all our blood should be valued. Also you banging on about Islam has little to do with this argument - this is a simple matter of oppression - agreed there are worse oppressors out there e.g. Gaddafi/Saddam but that doesn't mean that Israel is not a terrorist and oppressive state.




Read the following article, it disproves most of the BBC crap that the left spout over here:

http://www.solomonstemple.com/2010/1...-on-jerusalem/

Try visiting Israel sometime and being objective. I did and I crossed quite freely into the West Bank and certainly didn't see much evidence of an oppressed, impoverished people there.



Yeah I guess having you and your family kicked out of their homes and land to build settlements doesn't count as oppression. Also having 99.9% of water go to settlements and the remaining 0.1% (slight exaguration though only very slight) going to Palestinians is not oppressive in any way or form....





Israel wants to get on by itself, the Arabs just want to destroy Israel. Who's the aggressor?



Arabs are a vast race stretching from Morocco to Sudan to the UAE. Every arab nation is different. However, nobody likes to have a terrorist next door and before you say that the arabs are the real terrorists just refer to the statistics of the lebanon war:
Vast Majority of those killed by terrorist "hezbollah" were soldiers
Vast Majority (over 95%) of the 1000 + lebanese killed were civilians

At the end of the day history is there for all to read.

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 11:22
What I said was:



If you take from that statement that I'm saying god gave it to them then you're an idiot. Clearly. Either that or deliberately twisting my words.

The Book of Genesis and the Torah are known to predate Christ. Not thought, known. They may be full of pish, but they quite clearly refer to the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. There is no mention of the word Palestine.

Judaism is a religion my friend, not a race or nationality.

Old Greg
23rd February 2011, 11:25
There is no mention of the word Palestine.

So do they mention the Philistines?


Now sucked into wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_Palestine

'c.1150 BCE: Medinet Habu (temple): records a people called the P-r-s-t (conventionally Peleset) among the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III's reign.[1]'

Gibbon
23rd February 2011, 11:44
I blame

Imperator Caesar Divi Traiani filius Traianus Hadrianus Augustus

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 11:45
I blame

Imperator Caesar Divi Traiani filius Traianus Hadrianus Augustus

Yeah, what did the Romans ever do for us?

NorthWestPerm2Contr
23rd February 2011, 11:46
Judaism is a religion my friend, not a race or nationality.

Judaism is a religion, being Jewish is not. Hence you can get Athiest Jews and you need to have one parent being a Jew before you are considered a jew by race.

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 11:53
Judaism is a religion, being Jewish is not. Hence you can get Athiest Jews and you need to have one parent being a Jew before you are considered a jew by race.

Your Mother!

EternalOptimist
23rd February 2011, 11:55
Anyone who doesnt realise that humans have migrated through this area for a million years, and the people who may have lived there for the last 4,000 years are simply the latest squatters is sadly lacking in education





:rolleyes:

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 11:59
Anyone who doesnt realise that humans have migrated through this area for a million years, and the people who may have lived there for the last 4,000 years are simply the latest squatters is sadly lacking in education





:rolleyes:

Oh FFS, don't introduce common sense into the equation.

Mich the Tester
23rd February 2011, 12:02
Oh FFS, don't introduce common sense into the equation.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bN9se-ul_aE/SsfH3bSRbhI/AAAAAAAACAA/HUoMTwFcjh0/s400/graham_chapman_stop_that_silly.jpg

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 12:03
Oh FFS, don't introduce common sense into the equation.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bN9se-ul_aE/SsfH3bSRbhI/AAAAAAAACAA/HUoMTwFcjh0/s400/graham_chapman_stop_that_silly.jpg

He started it!

Paddy
23rd February 2011, 12:32
Your Mother!

In fact it has to be the mother. The doctoring goes that the father can never be sure of who fathered the child only the mother knows. Anyone can convert to Judaism but to be purely Jewish, you need a Jewish mother.

Jews and Arabs are from the same origin and lived side by side for thousands of years. It is only the influx of European Jews (from USSR) into Israel that caused problems. The European Jews are from a different race entirely. You can Google and find the same.

AlfredJPruffock
23rd February 2011, 12:44
I read the other day that outsde of Israel in the Middle East the country with thr largest Jewish population is Iran.

Recently I happned to meet an Iranian who was in the Iranian Navy at the time of the gulf War with Iraq - he to;d me that they used to receiive consignments of food supplies for the Iranian Navy personnel - all sent directly from Israel.

amcdonald
23rd February 2011, 12:49
He started it!

But he only said Jehovah!

NorthWestPerm2Contr
23rd February 2011, 12:50
I read the other day that outsde of Israel in the Middle East the country with thr largest Jewish population is Iran.

Recently I happned to meet an Iranian who was in the Iranian Navy at the time of the gulf War with Iraq - he to;d me that they used to receiive consignments of food supplies for the Iranian Navy personnel - all sent directly from Israel.

Very true, interestesting how Iran suddently wants to kill every jew on earth? Why not start with the Iranian ones..... Obviously Iran is not anti-semitic. I even read an article on the BBC about how Ahmedinijad regularly donates to the jewish hospital of tehran... A country full of anti-semites right?

gingerjedi
23rd February 2011, 12:58
Saudi King offers increased benefits for his citizens (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12550326)

Well you would wouldn't you. :laugh

xoggoth
23rd February 2011, 13:39
Isn't ImaDinnerJacket supposed by some to be Jewish?

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad revealed to have Jewish past - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/6256173/Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-revealed-to-have-Jewish-past.html)

Same as Hitler was supposed to be. Maybe everyone who has ever persecuted Jews is Jewish and it is a little game they like to play.

xoggoth
23rd February 2011, 13:43
I suspect Saudi Arabia and Oman may escape the turmoil simply cos the citizens seem to do ok. Democracy is a technicality, what is ours worth really? Pretty much of of a joke, we don't really get a say in our society. If they ended up with a Gordon Brown they'd probably want their kings & sultans back.


Oman seems quite a decent society too, public worship of other religions allowed for example.

pacharan
23rd February 2011, 13:43
The European Jews are from a different race entirely. You can Google and find the same.

NO!! I assume you refer to the Ashkenazi
Jews originating in central and eastern Europe.

This nonsense about not inheriting a common Middle Eastern semitic genebase is just that; nonsense. Some would say antisemitic nonsense.

EternalOptimist
23rd February 2011, 13:48
I suspect Saudi Arabia and Oman may escape the turmoil simply cos the citizens seem to do ok. Democracy is a technicality, what is ours worth really? Pretty much of of a joke, we don't really get a say in our society. If they ended up with a Gordon Brown they'd probably want their kings & sultans back.


Oman seems quite a decent society too, public worship of other religions allowed for example.

its about freedom i suspect. the freedom to spout crap and not to get hit on the head for it

Thank God I live in an 'OUCH' stop doing that



:rolleyes:

xoggoth
23rd February 2011, 13:55
Will the turmoil stop in Arab countries? Minor problems in China but most of those are doing ok so it won't turn major.

The really ripe places for revolt are Nigeria, Burma (Myanmar) and Kazachstan. North Vietnamese probably too brainwashed and too isolated to know what's going on.

EternalOptimist
23rd February 2011, 13:56
Will the turmoil stop in Arab countries? Minor problems in China but most of those are doing ok so it won't turn major.

The really ripe places for revolt are Nigeria, Burma (Myanmar) and Kazachstan. North Vietnamese probably too brainwashed and too isolated to know what's going on.

I've got my eye on the Jocks. not too sure about the Welsh either


:rolleyes:

Pondlife
23rd February 2011, 14:02
I've got my eye on the Jocks. not too sure about the Welsh either


:rolleyes:

We've been placated by offers of hosting the women's football before the olympics.

EternalOptimist
23rd February 2011, 14:05
We've been placated by offers of hosting the women's football before the olympics.

bought off by twenty two pairs of bouncing boobies and pert bums in tight shorts eh ?


God. I wish I was Welsh
:rolleyes:

Gibbon
23rd February 2011, 14:27
Will the turmoil stop in Arab countries? Minor problems in China but most of those are doing ok so it won't turn major.

The really ripe places for revolt are Nigeria, Burma (Myanmar) and Kazachstan. North Vietnamese probably too brainwashed and too isolated to know what's going on.

I don’t know about that Xog.

China could be having a bit of trouble with Tibet when the Dalai Lama heads for his re-incarnation. The only person who can authenticate the re-incarnated Dalai Lama is the Panchen Lama and he is a Chinese puppet so has no real authority in most Buddhists eyes.

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 15:15
I've got my eye on the Jocks. not too sure about the Welsh either


:rolleyes:

What about those bastards in Cornwall?

Pondlife
23rd February 2011, 15:26
What about those bastards in Cornwall?

They've been given Protected Geographical Indication status for their pasties this week, so they're quite happy for the time being.

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 15:34
They've been given Protected Geographical Indication status for their pasties this week, so they're quite happy for the time being.

What happened to the Cornwall Independence Idiot who used to post on here?

amcdonald
23rd February 2011, 15:41
bought off by twenty two pairs of bouncing boobies and pert bums in tight shorts eh ?


God. I wish I was Welsh
:rolleyes:

I'd opt for the womens beach volleyball at the olympics

Incognito
23rd February 2011, 17:06
Judaism is a religion my friend, not a race or nationality.

What's your point caller or is this just the random point in this specific thread when you throw that statement in?

I've categorically stated through this thread that the land is Israeli, not Jewish. As so:


Israel has every right to protect their own land

The fact I stated 'It was a Jewish land when the Arabs and the 'West' were still barking at the moon.' is more to do with the fact that the name of the land has changed over the generations yet the people still retain the same identity. So yes, well done 'Judaism is a religion' can we get back on topic then?



So do they mention the Philistines?


Now sucked into wikipedia: Timeline of the name Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_Palestine)

'c.1150 BCE: Medinet Habu (temple): records a people called the P-r-s-t (conventionally Peleset) among the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III's reign.[1]'

They do actually as seen below. Still not the heartland of Israel though is it. I believe Ashdod was its own vassal state around 800BC though. So not technically a Philistine city.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Kingdoms_around_Israel_830_map.svg/500px-Kingdoms_around_Israel_830_map.svg.png

Israel around 830BC

Churchill
23rd February 2011, 17:54
What's your point caller or is this just the random point in this specific thread when you throw that statement in?

I've categorically stated through this thread that the land is Israeli, not Jewish. As so:



The fact I stated 'It was a Jewish land when the Arabs and the 'West' were still barking at the moon.' is more to do with the fact that the name of the land has changed over the generations yet the people still retain the same identity. So yes, well done 'Judaism is a religion' can we get back on topic then?




They do actually as seen below. Still not the heartland of Israel though is it. I believe Ashdod was its own vassal state around 800BC though. So not technically a Philistine city.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Kingdoms_around_Israel_830_map.svg/500px-Kingdoms_around_Israel_830_map.svg.png

Israel around 830BC

Just separating church and state dear boy.

No need to get so rattled.

xoggoth
23rd February 2011, 18:12
Always find these arguments about the origins of Israel and who lived there first quite irrelevant. As John Wayne (my new Guru) said:


If everything isn't black and white, I say, "Why the hell not?

Unpleasant as Israel may be, the wall on Palestinian land, the occupation of the West bank, the rules that allow annexation of land from Arabs after a few years, an almost theist state that does not even allow secular marriage, the reported racism of Israelis, the lobbying for a totally one sided approach by the UN, there is a more important fact about Judaism. It is not an aggressive political philosophy like Islam and it does not threaten our own society.

Bollux to all your morality and ethics and your fine analysis of history. Who cares? Go with human nature and the knee jerk reactions it equipped you with for your survival. Care for yourself, your family, your friends, your neighbours, your nation and the people like you in that order. All else is drivel. My only concern is the society that I and my children will have to live in and I want that society to be a secular one with rational laws based on what works.

So bollux to Palestine, three cheers for Israel. I really do not give a damn about your morality or your history.

xoggoth
23rd February 2011, 18:23
PS In Westerns I always side with the cowboys too. All that hollering is annoying.

Spacecadet
23rd February 2011, 18:56
This:
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 273 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_273)

Is the only real legal right Israel has to protect itself

EternalOptimist
23rd February 2011, 19:13
http://0.tqn.com/d/archaeology/1/0/s/6/1/Spreading_homo_sapiens.jpg

lilelvis2000
23rd February 2011, 22:55
there is a more important fact about Judaism. It is not an aggressive political philosophy like Islam and it does not threaten our own society.


There are some who would say that Judaism is running our societies.

lilelvis2000
23rd February 2011, 22:56
http://0.tqn.com/d/archaeology/1/0/s/6/1/Spreading_homo_sapiens.jpg

Does this mean I can claim a parcel of land in Ethiopia?

Paddy
23rd February 2011, 23:06
NO!! I assume you refer to the Ashkenazi
Jews originating in central and eastern Europe.

This nonsense about not inheriting a common Middle Eastern semitic genebase is just that; nonsense. Some would say antisemitic nonsense.

Jews of Khazaria, map, brief history and other resources « Divining the News (DTN) (http://morris108.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/jews-of-khazaria-map-brief-history-and-other-resources/)


“REMARKABLY, the Khazars, a people of Turkic origin, converted to the Jewish religion sometime in the 9th century, beginning with the royal house and spreading gradually among the general populace. Judaism is now known to have been more widespread among the Khazar inhabitants of the Khazar kingdom than was previously thought. In 1999, Russian archaeologists announced that they had successfully reconstructed a Khazarian vessel from the Don River region, revealing 4 inscriptions of the word “Israel” in Hebrew lettering. It is now the accepted opinion among most scholars in the field that the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism was widespread, and not limited merely to the royal house and nobility. Ibn al-Faqih, in fact, wrote “All of the Khazars are Jews.” Christian of Stavelot wrote in 864 that “all of them profess the Jewish faith in its entirety.” Click here to view the full article and links to the original source.

http://lw.palestineremembered.com/Maps/Khazaria.jpg

EC4N
23rd February 2011, 23:39
They do actually as seen below. Still not the heartland of Israel though is it. I believe Ashdod was its own vassal state around 800BC though. So not technically a Philistine city.


That's 'eretz Yisrael' which the Israelis are are hoping to capture when the messiah arrives. But try looking at historical facts as they are.


http://worldcitizen.uk.net/4maps.jpg

NorthWestPerm2Contr
24th February 2011, 09:29
That's 'eretz Yisrael' which the Israelis are are hoping to capture when the messiah arrives. But try looking at historical facts as they are.

Wow your above post really shocks even me. The diagram is really scary from a Palestinian point of view. The sh1t media here constantly talks about Israel's existence coming under threat, but really the Palestinians are the one who are literally disappearing off the map. Amazing how the media can spin something around to be completely the opposite to what it really is.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
24th February 2011, 09:32
There are some who would say that Judaism is running our societies.

I wouldn't say Judaism is running societies as much as the Jews are running society. When it comes to the media, banking, politics, intelligence and forwards planning (50-100 years ahead) then there is nobody who comes within 1000 miles of them. From actors to CEO's to Politicians i.e. the most influencial posts then they have it all hence the BBC, CNN, Fox, Al-Jazeera etc propaganda. And before you tell me Al-Jazeera is anti, have a deeper think....

Incognito
24th February 2011, 14:42
Wow your above post really shocks even me. The diagram is really scary from a Palestinian point of view. The sh1t media here constantly talks about Israel's existence coming under threat, but really the Palestinians are the one who are literally disappearing off the map. Amazing how the media can spin something around to be completely the opposite to what it really is.

Listen it's a farce, there was no Palestine, Syria, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, UAE, etc. They were simply tribal Bedouin that wandered the land. You want to blame someone then look to yourself and the life you live thanks to the acts of those who went before you.

Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Ottoman_Empire)

It was the British, French and Russians that created all the trouble by carving up the Middle East in lines that were beneficial to them.

Sykes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement)

This is why you have the riots in Bahrain, the suicide bombings in Iraq, the conflict in Yemen, the Lebanese civil wars. Muslim sects do not like each other, you think Northern Ireland is bad? The only thing they all agree on is that the Jews are worse. They are built on hatred. It is what their religion promotes, the religion does not tolerate others no matter how much the loony left would wish it did (Note: I'm talking about the religion not the individual).

The Jews did not 'steal' anyone's land.

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 14:45
I wouldn't say Judaism is running societies as much as the Jews are running society. When it comes to the media, banking, politics, intelligence and forwards planning (50-100 years ahead) then there is nobody who comes within 1000 miles of them. From actors to CEO's to Politicians i.e. the most influencial posts then they have it all hence the BBC, CNN, Fox, Al-Jazeera etc propaganda. And before you tell me Al-Jazeera is anti, have a deeper think....

It's like reading a Nick Griffin pamphlet about 'Mindbenders'.

amcdonald
24th February 2011, 14:47
It's like reading a Nick Griffin pamphlet about 'Mindbenders'.

Are they gay hypnotists ?

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 14:50
Listen it's a farce, there was no Palestine, Syria, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, UAE, etc. They were simply tribal Bedouin that wandered the land.

Why don't you create an argument around facts, rather than fiction? There was no Syria, but there we more than tribal Bedouin that wandered the land. Who was living in Damascus at the time? And Jerusalem?



The Jews did not 'steal' anyone's land.

Agree with you on this one. However, the Israelis are certainly engaged in land theft.

Incognito
24th February 2011, 14:57
That's 'eretz Yisrael' which the Israelis are are hoping to capture when the messiah arrives. But try looking at historical facts as they are.


http://worldcitizen.uk.net/4maps.jpg

Very good, now answer this, what events were the precursor to the downsize in Palestinian territory in those pictures? So why between '47 and '49 did they lose territory and then again post '67 what happened then?

I'll give you a clue, one side didn't want to stick to the fairest proposal:

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan)

Here's another clue, it wasn't the Israelis.

Incognito
24th February 2011, 15:02
Why don't you create an argument around facts, rather than fiction? There was no Syria, but there we more than tribal Bedouin that wandered the land. Who was living in Damascus at the time? And Jerusalem?

You're being a bit pedantic. I didn't really mean they were all out living in tents and herding goats. I'm referring to their sense of belonging and their identity.


Agree with you on this one. However, the Israelis are certainly engaged in land theft.

I wouldn't call it land theft having been to Jerusalem and seen it in action. They certainly are trying to extend their territory, but they are normally engaged in offering absolutely stupid amounts of money (funded by expat Jews) to Palestinians for their houses and then shipping an orthodox family in.

Illegal settlements are different because technically the state does not approve of it, however will still offer state protection otherwise the settlers would just be strung up.

Spacecadet
24th February 2011, 15:11
Very good, now answer this, what events were the precursor to the downsize in Palestinian territory in those pictures? So why between '47 and '49 did they lose territory and then again post '67 what happened then?

I'll give you a clue, one side didn't want to stick to the fairest proposal:

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan)

Here's another clue, it wasn't the Israelis.

One side hadn't agreed to the proposal in the first place so it's not as if they had anything to stick to.
Even in your own link it details how the British (who occupied the area at the time) were unhappy at the lack of agreement and fairness and pulled out without giving control to either party.

Churchill
24th February 2011, 15:11
You're being a bit pedantic. I didn't really mean they were all out living in tents and herding goats. I'm referring to their sense of belonging and their identity.



I wouldn't call it land theft having been to Jerusalem and seen it in action. They certainly are trying to extend their territory, but they are normally engaged in offering absolutely stupid amounts of money (funded by expat Jews) to Palestinians for their houses and then shipping an orthodox family in.

Illegal settlements are different because technically the state does not approve of it, however will still offer state protection otherwise the settlers would just be strung up.

You're not the only one who's been to Jerusalem. I've worked there. Twice.

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 15:15
You're being a bit pedantic. I didn't really mean they were all out living in tents and herding goats. I'm referring to their sense of belonging and their identity.



I wouldn't call it land theft having been to Jerusalem and seen it in action. They certainly are trying to extend their territory, but they are normally engaged in offering absolutely stupid amounts of money (funded by expat Jews) to Palestinians for their houses and then shipping an orthodox family in.

Illegal settlements are different because technically the state does not approve of it, however will still offer state protection otherwise the settlers would just be strung up.

Wow, we seem to have a civil dialogue (not aimed at you, just re the topic). I don't think I am being pedantic but there we are.

You have a very rose-tinted view of settler activity in the occupied territories. A slightly old article here but one from a news source that would not be immediately identifiable as 'anti-Israel' FT.com / UK - Evictions gather pace in fight for East Jerusalem (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/41ba7ba2-9f34-11de-8013-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1EtDH4KYv)

An extract:

'The legal dispute over the homes emerged after Israel conquered East Jerusalem. Using Ottoman-period property deeds that the families' current lawyers say were forged, two Jewish groups in 1972 claimed they were the owners of the land and demanded rent -payments.

A decade later, the then-lawyer for the families did not contest the Jewish groups' ownership claims, instead agreeing that the families would keep their homes as long as they pay rent. Most of them still refused to pay and today claim they were not told of the details in the agreement, which serves as the legal basis for the attempt to evict them.

While their lawyers now intend to challenge the authenticity of the property deeds, the evictions are gathering pace.

Maher Hanoun, a 51-year-old food salesman, chain-smoked as he sat on a white plastic chair in the shade of an olive tree and stared at the house in which he had grown up. "If the Jews have the right to take back their land here, why can't we get back the property my family lost in 1948?" Mr Hanoun said, adding he had little faith in the Israeli legal system. "This is a political issue, so our best hope is pressure on Israel from the US."'

Churchill
24th February 2011, 15:27
You're not the only one who's been to Jerusalem. I've worked there. Twice.

Not only have I worked in Jerusalem, twice. I was there during the "Orange" shirt demonstrations.

Incognito
24th February 2011, 15:37
Wow, we seem to have a civil dialogue (not aimed at you, just re the topic). I don't think I am being pedantic but there we are.

You have a very rose-tinted view of settler activity in the occupied territories.

I suppose we each have our own views. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem they bulldozed the Jewish Quarter and expelled all the Jews. You could say that Israel is simply trying to take back the city.

Don't forget, everyone always seems to refer to the Nakba and castigate Israel for their part in this, however the same number (possibly greater) of Jews were expelled from their homes as well.

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands)

lilelvis2000
24th February 2011, 15:38
Apparently the unrest in Libya is the work of AlQaeda. BBC News - Libya: Gaddafi blames Osama Bin Laden for protests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279)

Now, I wonder what the USA response to that is gonna be? Considering that Osama also wanted to put Saddam out.

Incognito
24th February 2011, 15:41
Not only have I worked in Jerusalem, twice. I was there during the "Orange" shirt demonstrations.

Amazing place Israel. Tel-Aviv is such a great city. Spent a week there partying and then followed it up with a week climbing over the history out in the desert.

People thing of the Orthodox and crazy settlers when they think of Israel, Tel-Aviv couldn't be any further from the truth. Such a liberal city.

lilelvis2000
24th February 2011, 15:42
I suppose we each have our own views. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem they bulldozed the Jewish Quarter and expelled all the Jews. You could say that Israel is simply trying to take back the city.

Don't forget, everyone always seems to refer to the Nakba and castigate Israel for their part in this, however the same number (possibly greater) of Jews were expelled from their homes as well.

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands)


My take is that Israel is supposed to espouse Western Values - democracy, moral, ethics, rule of law etc... But when you fall back on the eye-for-an-eye argument you're right back into religious dogma.

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 15:44
I suppose we each have our own views. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem they bulldozed the Jewish Quarter and expelled all the Jews. You could say that Israel is simply trying to take back the city.

Don't forget, everyone always seems to refer to the Nakba and castigate Israel for their part in this, however the same number (possibly greater) of Jews were expelled from their homes as well.

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands)

The history is clearly screwed up. Start from Israelite domindation of Philistines, Roman expulsion of Jews, fall of the Ottoman Empire, 1947, 1967 or whatever, but...

It cannot be acceptable to keep the Palestinians in the condition (political, legal, material) that they are and to continue to support illegal settlements in occupied territories. What we see is a triumph of military power and nothing more.

Incognito
24th February 2011, 15:47
My take is that Israel is supposed to espouse Western Values - democracy, moral, ethics, rule of law etc... But when you fall back on the eye-for-an-eye argument you're right back into religious dogma.

Absolutely agree with you, the whole fact that it does aspire to Western values is why I am Pro-Israeli. I wasn't using an example of the destruction as 'an eye for an eye', more the big boy simply taking back what was his.

However that gets back to the argument that it never was Israeli land in the first place.

It's an argument that won't be solved. Both sides will still fight about it, neither will be happy with what they see as a capitulation.

lilelvis2000
24th February 2011, 15:55
The history is clearly screwed up. Start from Israelite domindation of Philistines, Roman expulsion of Jews, fall of the Ottoman Empire, 1947, 1967 or whatever, but...

It cannot be acceptable to keep the Palestinians in the condition (political, legal, material) that they are and to continue to support illegal settlements in occupied territories. What we see is a triumph of military power and nothing more.


I sometimes wonder if the past 60 years is all some kind of chess play by Israel. They occupy a great deal of land - but can't annex it. Obviously if they expand Israel it no longer is a Jewish majority state - and the Arabs will have equal rights and perhaps the majority of MKs. So that's not a solution. Another solution is to make the arabs lives miserable with force..that worked somewhat until the Arabs began blowing themselves up. The third try is with concessions and that's going horribly wrong.

The Israeli's won't give up that land and will not allow a Arab state to form. This is gonna be crap for a loooong time me thinks.

minestrone
24th February 2011, 15:58
Amazing place Israel. Tel-Aviv is such a great city. Spent a week there partying and then followed it up with a week climbing over the history out in the desert.

People thing of the Orthodox and crazy settlers when they think of Israel, Tel-Aviv couldn't be any further from the truth. Such a liberal city.

"The gay capital of the Middle East"

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 15:58
Absolutely agree with you, the whole fact that it does aspire to Western values is why I am Pro-Israeli. I wasn't using an example of the destruction as 'an eye for an eye', more the big boy simply taking back what was his.

However that gets back to the argument that it never was Israeli land in the first place.

It's an argument that won't be solved. Both sides will still fight about it, neither will be happy with what they see as a capitulation.

I think that if sides are looking for a solution, part pf an answer can be found in Northern Ireland. The IRA demanded unification of Ireland, but peace was achievable not by meeting the demand, but by addressing the real cause / fuel of the insurgency / terrorist campaign, which lay (I suggest) in the Catholic working class population's (perceived or real) lack of civil rights and access to housing and jobs on an equal basis as the Protestan working class. Solve that and sort out policing and unification was no longer a 'deal-breaking' issue.

I suspect the same is true in Israel and Palestine. Hamas' rhetoric will be meaningless if Palestinians has a real independent state - they won't be interested in destroying Israel. There will need to be a financial settlement for dis-possessed refugees on all sides, but I expect the peace dividend will largely cover that. However, I think that squeezing the Palestinians so that elements turn to Hamas (due to the failure of Fatah) suits Israeli hard-liners very well and gices them the space to continue making inroads into illegally occupied land.

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 16:00
"The gay capital of the Middle East"

A kind of Mecca, then?

Incognito
24th February 2011, 16:00
The Israeli's won't give up that land and will not allow a Arab state to form. This is gonna be crap for a loooong time me thinks.

This is what the next wars will be fought about:

ICE Cases: Litani River Dispute (http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/litani.htm)

Greeks eye Israeli gas reserves - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resource-Wars/2011/02/24/Greeks-eye-Israeli-gas-reserves/UPI-35971298555808/)

In the next decade as well. My prediction.

:frown

Incognito
24th February 2011, 16:01
"The gay capital of the Middle East"

They were quite happy, yes.

Incognito
24th February 2011, 16:04
I think that if sides are looking for a solution, part pf an answer can be found in Northern Ireland. The IRA demanded unification of Ireland, but peace was achievable not by meeting the demand, but by addressing the real cause / fuel of the insurgency / terrorist campaign, which lay (I suggest) in the Catholic working class population's (perceived or real) lack of civil rights and access to housing and jobs on an equal basis as the Protestan working class. Solve that and sort out policing and unification was no longer a 'deal-breaking' issue.


Don't bring N.Ireland into this, the thread will kick off big time.

9/11 brought peace to N.Ireland, that's all I'll say.

lilelvis2000
24th February 2011, 16:05
This is what the next wars will be fought about:

ICE Cases: Litani River Dispute (http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/litani.htm)

Greeks eye Israeli gas reserves - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resource-Wars/2011/02/24/Greeks-eye-Israeli-gas-reserves/UPI-35971298555808/)

In the next decade as well. My prediction.




:frown

I can't see a war there - the Israeli's will just take it. Is there any army in the Middle East that can take them on. I don't think there is.

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 16:08
This is what the next wars will be fought about:

ICE Cases: Litani River Dispute (http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/litani.htm)

Greeks eye Israeli gas reserves - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resource-Wars/2011/02/24/Greeks-eye-Israeli-gas-reserves/UPI-35971298555808/)

In the next decade as well. My prediction.

:frown

I wonder if there is a map of the Eastern Mediterranean are on the Internet showing the overlap of all the ultra-nationalist movments:

Greater Greece ('Our capital, Constantinople')
Greater Israel
Greater Serbia
Greater Albania
Greater Macedonia
Greater Syria
Greater no doubt many more

Old Greg
24th February 2011, 16:11
Don't bring N.Ireland into this, the thread will kick off big time.

9/11 brought peace to N.Ireland, that's all I'll say.

You couldn't make up this one if you tried:

Rep Peter King, IRA supporter, wants to hold hearings on radical islam « Views Across the Pond (http://viewsacrossthepond.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/rep-peter-king-ira-supporter-wants-to-hold-hearings-on-radical-islam/)

Incognito
24th February 2011, 16:15
I can't see a war there - the Israeli's will just take it. Is there any army in the Middle East that can take them on. I don't think there is.

The problem lies with the Arabs not knowing when they're beaten, 'Allahu Akbar' and all that.

Syria and Iran are spoiling for another fight with Israel, but they won't do anything without the Arab league. Israel annexing part of Lebanon will cause that.

The problem you have is that Turkey is slowly discovering that the EU wants nothing to do with it and so is engaging quite openly with the Arab league.

minestrone
24th February 2011, 16:17
Don't bring N.Ireland into this, the thread will kick off big time.

9/11 brought peace to N.Ireland, that's all I'll say.

Pish

Churchill
24th February 2011, 16:19
"The gay capital of the Middle East"


A kind of Mecca, then?

I'm sorry, I don't pray that way!

cue for a song?

Incognito
24th February 2011, 16:26
Pish

Here he comes.

Note, I did not say 9/11 resolved the crisis, I said it brought peace. There is a big difference.

amcdonald
24th February 2011, 16:47
Here he comes.

Note, I did not say 9/11 resolved the crisis, I said it brought peace. There is a big difference.

Only because the yanks suddenly realised that funding terrorists wasn't a trendy activity for lefties anymore

Without the yanks funding the IRA, they had to fall back on money laundering, casinos, fuel theft etc to get by rather than pretend to be interested in politics back home

Churchill
24th February 2011, 16:49
Only because the yanks suddenly realised that funding terrorists wasn't a trendy activity for lefties anymore

Without the yanks funding the IRA, they had to fall back on money laundering, casinos, fuel theft etc to get by rather than pretend to be interested in politics back home

You left out the following...

Drugs
Prostitution
Protection Rackets

So much for "the cause", eh bhoys?

minestrone
24th February 2011, 16:54
Only because the yanks suddenly realised that funding terrorists wasn't a trendy activity for lefties anymore

Without the yanks funding the IRA, they had to fall back on money laundering, casinos, fuel theft etc to get by rather than pretend to be interested in politics back home

Gaddafi done more for the IRA ( who had already admitted the armed struggle was over long before 9/11 ) with a few boats loads of heavy weapons and semtex than Gene Kelly and his mates did passing the plate round on their cigars and Bushmills nights in New York.

EC4N
24th February 2011, 17:46
Very good, now answer this, what events were the precursor to the downsize in Palestinian territory in those pictures? So why between '47 and '49 did they lose territory and then again post '67 what happened then?...

What a ludicrous diversion. The Nakba (http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/171.shtml) didn't exactly happen on the moon did it? In the first instance, try and justify why the state of Israel was founded on terrorism by the Zionist terrorist gangs of the time (the Irgun Zvai Leumi, Stern Gang and Haganah (http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm)). The fact that Argentina was also an option for the creation of a Jewish state is contradictory to your assertion of an 'eretz Yisrael' some 800 b.c as justification for displacing millions of it's inhabitants.

centurian
24th February 2011, 19:56
9/11 brought peace to N.Ireland, that's all I'll say.

And Ireland's economy imploding is helping to keep the peace.

The Celtic Tiger is (was) a major reason why nationalism was hotting up again. Nothing to do with religion this time - just the belief that Dublin was paved in gold and NI was missing out.

minestrone
24th February 2011, 20:16
And Ireland's economy imploding is helping to keep the peace.

The Celtic Tiger is (was) a major reason why nationalism was hotting up again. Nothing to do with religion this time - just the belief that Dublin was paved in gold and NI was missing out.

It is quite the reverse, CIRA, RIRA, and Oglaigh na hEireann are making massive recruitment drives in the south and all currently active republican groups are making 'socialist' proclamations about bankers stealing wealth from the common Irish man which is going down great with the masses.

There is going to be a bombing campaign again in England in the next few years, that is beyond doubt.

EC4N
24th February 2011, 21:49
...So why between '47 and '49 did they lose territory and then again post '67 what happened then?

I'll give you a clue, one side didn't want to stick to the fairest proposal:


Just incase you missed my link, perhaps you should also consider some of the chain of events taking place prior to and between 47 and 49 and conclude how it's even remotely possible to accept a 'proposal' after being brutally repressed in your own country. And calling it 'fairest', well you really are taking the pithhh.

The attacks on the British were deliberate acts to change the status quo given that Britain was responsible for initiating the Balfour Declaration of 1917 specifically for the creation of a Jewish state. And all this, 50 years before the emergence of Al-Qaeda.


November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.
.
.
.
1947 -- 1948. Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

Incognito
24th February 2011, 22:33
Gaddafi done more for the IRA ( who had already admitted the armed struggle was over long before 9/11 ) with a few boats loads of heavy weapons and semtex than Gene Kelly and his mates did passing the plate round on their cigars and Bushmills nights in New York.

Pish

BBC News | AMERICAS | Rich friends in New York (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1563119.stm)


While Libya's donation of arms to the IRA in the 1980s has been the most public sign of where the republican movement has previously turned for support, the reality is that North America has been the most important link of all.

Sinn Fein sure of continued US funding | BreakingNews.ie (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/sinn-fein-sure-of-continued-us-funding-24026.html)


American funds is a huge source of income for the Republican Movement. Over the years, Irish Americans have ploughed millions of dollars into Sinn Fein coffers.



Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stylee rant

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you're Muslim.

:eyes

minestrone
24th February 2011, 23:05
He may have funded a few guns, well quite a few actually...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCpOKtN8ME

But is was Gaddafi that supplied the stuff for Warrenpoint.

TimberWolf
3rd March 2011, 22:11
Isn't it nice to switch on the News and see someone like Hague making some kind of sensible comment about the mid east crisis and being left feeling that, right or wrong, this crisis is being handled as competently as one might hope, by competent normal looking people. So one can relax and let them get on with it. A far cry from the Labour days <shiver>

amcdonald
3rd March 2011, 22:43
Isn't it nice to switch on the News and see someone like Hague making some kind of sensible comment about the mid east crisis and being left feeling that, right or wrong, this crisis is being handled as competently as one might hope, by competent normal looking people. So one can relax and let them get on with it. A far cry from the Labour days <shiver>

Hagues probably just hoping for a foreign holiday with his toyboy

DimPrawn
3rd March 2011, 22:52
Isn't it nice to switch on the News and see someone like Hague making some kind of sensible comment about the mid east crisis and being left feeling that, right or wrong, this crisis is being handled as competently as one might hope, by competent normal looking people. So one can relax and let them get on with it. A far cry from the Labour days <shiver>

WHS++

Those other ****ers give me the heebee jeebees.

Churchill
4th March 2011, 07:14
Hagues probably just hoping for a foreign holiday with his toyboy

Something you want to tell us? Are you coming out?

SueEllen
4th March 2011, 07:31
Isn't it nice to switch on the News and see someone like Hague making some kind of sensible comment about the mid east crisis and being left feeling that, right or wrong, this crisis is being handled as competently as one might hope, by competent normal looking people. So one can relax and let them get on with it. A far cry from the Labour days <shiver>

Hague was always sensible.

Just not Prime Minister material particularly with that stupid accent. (His vocal coach has a lot to answer for.)

Paddy
4th March 2011, 07:40
Hague was always sensible.

Just not Prime Minister material particularly with that stupid accent. (His vocal coach has a lot to answer for.)

I met Hague last year before the election. Nice but dim.
Yes another MP who is a member of “Friends of Israel”, hardly a neutral stance and not suitable for a foreign minister.

I knew a contractor with a similar voice as Hague's, he always got the best PM contracts even though he was dim.

amcdonald
4th March 2011, 09:50
Something you want to tell us? Are you coming out?

Have you been living in a closet the last 20 years ? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/05/william-hague-homosexuality-adrian-chiles)

Churchill
4th March 2011, 09:59
Have you been living in a closet the last 20 years ? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/05/william-hague-homosexuality-adrian-chiles)

You seem to be obsessed with another mans sexual preference. Just thought you'd like to get it off your chest.

minestrone
4th March 2011, 10:04
You seem to be obsessed with another mans sexual preference. Just thought you'd like to get it off your chest.

You seem to be obsessed with another mans sexual preference.

Just thought you'd like to get it off your chest

Did you see what you did wrong there?