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View Full Version : Daily rates and hourly rates



psychocandy
5th April 2011, 09:00
Going back to contracting after 10 years away. One thing I notice is that it all mostly seems to be daily rates rather than hourly rates these days?

In the past, it was a case of work more hours in a week, get paid more. Do clients now expect overtime as part of the daily rate for free? Or do you still consider a 'day' to be 7.5 hours or so?

Just a bit concerned that I'm going to bump into a client who expects 12 hour days for his 'daily' rate !!!!

TheFaQQer
5th April 2011, 09:22
Ensure that the contract defines a professional working day, if you are worried about it.

Simples.

Ignis Fatuus
5th April 2011, 09:43
Just a bit concerned that I'm going to bump into a client who expects 12 hour days for his 'daily' rate !!!!You will. That's why they do it.

There is always a risk that more work will be needed than has been planned for. With an hourly rate, the client is taking that risk. The "professional day" is a way of transferring the risk from the client to the contractor. IMHO that risk is higher when the party creating the risk (the client) is not the party taking the risk (the contractor).

Your rate should take this risk into account, if it doesn't then contracting is not a good deal.

psychocandy
5th April 2011, 09:58
You will. That's why they do it.

There is always a risk that more work will be needed than has been planned for. With an hourly rate, the client is taking that risk. The "professional day" is a way of transferring the risk from the client to the contractor. IMHO that risk is higher when the party creating the risk (the client) is not the party taking the risk (the contractor).

Your rate should take this risk into account, if it doesn't then contracting is not a good deal.

Rate per hour changes dramatically if your paid a daily rate and expect to work 12 hours as opposed to 7.5 !!!!!!!!

psychocandy
5th April 2011, 09:59
Ensure that the contract defines a professional working day, if you are worried about it.

Simples.

Is it normal to insist on this?

TheFaQQer
5th April 2011, 10:09
Is it normal to insist on this?

It's called negotiation.

If you want something in the contract, then negotiate and get it in the contract. If you want a red carpet welcome on day one, it's not normal to insist on it, but if it's something that you want then that is what you need to do - no-one else is going to wipe your nose for you and get you what you want.

You seem to worry too much about what other people think and want - you are in business for yourself and no-one else, so start acting like a business.

StopTheEarthIwantToGetOff
5th April 2011, 10:18
Its very simple if the contract states a professional working day then work a minimum of 7.5 hours (not including lunch). I don't believe that contractors should hang around every evening until the cleaners have even left. No one will think better of you for it, in fact it will more than likely piss off all the permies.

b0redom
6th April 2011, 13:24
I usually have the conversation very early on in the contract:

There are times you will want me to work longer than 8 hours (or whatever you're signed up to). Do you want me to:

a) Down tools and leave
b) Pay overtime
c) Have a gentleman's agreement that if I work 10 hours one day I can claw some back another day when things are quiet

Almost everyone says c.

Virtual Lover
6th April 2011, 22:40
I wouldnt sign the contract until it said 40 hours per week and I'm on a daily rate, which is grate as they work flexi time so I dont have to be up before I go to bed to in work monday morning or hit the rush hour on friday to travel home. Its stuff like this you should ask your agent once you get the offer.. i always do.. I signed a 40 hour a week spread over 5 days contract for a massive US company doing a goverment job in Leeds, they thought I would sleep under desk like the dum permies working there.. in the end I nearly made 50% on the contract.. they even asked me if I would drop the overtime invoice for a renewal .. !!!! Put it this way 18 months later an agent asked me if i wanted to take another contract with them.. i wasnt in work at the time but I still held out for something else.. and it paid off with a dream contract... oh and if they ask you to work say Sat morning.. thats a full day evening if you go home at 11:00.. frankly if they are takng the piss you dont want to go back anyway so make sure before you sign anything to ask about - out of hours -overtime - and on call payments.

Wodewick
6th April 2011, 22:58
I wouldnt sign the contract until it said 40 hours per week and I'm on a daily rate, which is grate as they work flexi time so I dont have to be up before I go to bed to in work monday morning or hit the rush hour on friday to travel home. Its stuff like this you should ask your agent once you get the offer.. i always do.. I signed a 40 hour a week spread over 5 days contract for a massive US company doing a goverment job in Leeds, they thought I would sleep under desk like the dum permies working there.. in the end I nearly made 50% on the contract.. they even asked me if I would drop the overtime invoice for a renewal .. !!!! Put it this way 18 months later an agent asked me if i wanted to take another contract with them.. i wasnt in work at the time but I still held out for something else.. and it paid off with a dream contract... oh and if they ask you to work say Sat morning.. thats a full day evening if you go home at 11:00.. frankly if they are takng the piss you dont want to go back anyway so make sure before you sign anything to ask about - out of hours -overtime - and on call payments.

I honestly don't understand most of that but in particular:
what does
in the end I nearly made 50% on the contract.. they even asked me if I would drop the overtime invoice for a renewal
mean?

Virtual Lover
6th April 2011, 23:04
I honestly don't understand most of that but in particular:
what does
mean?

Because they ask me to work all those extra hours I invoked the contract terms and invoiced them for all the overtime I did, that increased my invoice payments by nearly 50%

Wodewick
6th April 2011, 23:41
Because they ask me to work all those extra hours I invoked the contract terms and invoiced them for all the overtime I did, that increased my invoice payments by nearly 50%

Ahhh sort of making sense now - You invoiced something like 50% more than you had originally expected because you worked something like 50% longer. Fair enough. I assume you were working away from home so didn't have anything better to do - or not as 50% increase in wonga is never a bad thing (50% more work in exchange could be argued either way).

xS9
25th April 2011, 14:58
Typically contracts specify a "professional working day" of either 7.5 or 8 hours.

I guess it depends on the client, but I've never had an issue claiming overtime where required.

Ignis Fatuus
4th May 2011, 07:10
I usually have the conversation very early on in the contract:

There are times you will want me to work longer than 8 hours (or whatever you're signed up to). Do you want me to:

a) Down tools and leave
b) Pay overtime
c) Have a gentleman's agreement that if I work 10 hours one day I can claw some back another day when things are quiet

Almost everyone says c.IME contracts require a "professional day" and don't specify what that might be, leaving it open to be "whatever is required to get the work done".

And whenever I have asked those questions a-c), the answer has been d) we expect you to work as a professional and do whatever is required.

Mention of the word "overtime" has just got me withering "you're not getting this are you" looks.

So I say again, your rate should cover it, if it doesn't then you are not being paid enough and contracting is not as good an option as it looked.

psychocandy
4th May 2011, 19:08
OK. Example then....

£250/day at 8 hours a day is £33.33 an hour. £250/day at 12 hours a day is £20.83. BIG difference.

Bottom line is do you insist on standard day being 8 hours max to stop clients taking the piss or do you trust them not to?

Personally, I've no problem working 12 hours on the odd occasion if needs be with normal days being 7.5/8 hours but would be wassed off if it happened all the time.

kaiser78
4th May 2011, 20:43
cancelled !

bobspud
4th May 2011, 21:25
It's simple

If you do 8 hours on a daily rate you bill 1 day. When you do the occasional, and I stress the word occasional 10 hours you swallow it as necessary. However once you walk into an office that decides that 12 is normal you make it known that you are charging 1.5 days per day.

If they don't like it you get up at 7.5 hours and go home every day until they get the point or sack you because you are not a dumb as the rest of the office. Either way you have not lost out and you didn't squeeze a 9 month gig into 6 months ruining your health and life in the process.

Time = ££

If the customer doesn't like this offer there is always the point to be made that you are not charging at double or even treble time. Or the discussion that suggests a rate increase to the equivalent of 10 hours per day, in return for a more intrusive day...

psychocandy
4th May 2011, 22:09
It's simple

If you do 8 hours on a daily rate you bill 1 day. When you do the occasional, and I stress the word occasional 10 hours you swallow it as necessary. However once you walk into an office that decides that 12 is normal you make it known that you are charging 1.5 days per day.

If they don't like it you get up at 7.5 hours and go home every day until they get the point or sack you because you are not a dumb as the rest of the office. Either way you have not lost out and you didn't squeeze a 9 month gig into 6 months ruining your health and life in the process.

Time = ££

If the customer doesn't like this offer there is always the point to be made that you are not charging at double or even treble time. Or the discussion that suggests a rate increase to the equivalent of 10 hours per day, in return for a more intrusive day...

Agreed about the occasional bit. Never have or will have an issue with this.

Just I've been away from contracting for 10 years and back then it was all hourly rate and now I see this new daily rate thing. Heard from friends who've been shafted by clients expecting 10-12 hours EVERY DAY.

Just wondered really if anyone bothered making provision for this possible piss taking in the contract or whether they just did as this poster suggests? i.e. Bill for 1.5 days if its regularly taking the piss and see what happens....

Like I said a nice contract rate working 7.5/8 hrs most days with the occasional 10 hr if things go off is a LOT different to working 10-12 hrs every day. Sorry but I'd rather a lower daily rate and a life to go with it.