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TimberWolf
15th September 2011, 11:08
The Prime Minister Yes, I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. It would do just that. It would also mean that there would have to be enormous transfers of money from one country to another. It would cost us a great deal of money. One reason why some of the poorer countries want it is that they would get those big transfers of money. We are trying to contest that. If we have a single currency or a locked currency, the differences come out substantially in unemployment or vast movements of people from one country to another. Many people who talk about a single currency have never considered its full implications.

I think that I would put it just a little differently from the right hon. Gentleman [Tony Benn], although I recognise some of the force of some of the points that he makes. When the Delors proposals for economic and monetary union came out, it was said immediately by my right hon. Friend [ Nigel Lawson ] the then Chancellor of the Exchequer that this was not really about monetary policy at all but about a back door to a federal Europe, taking many democratic powers away from democratically elected bodies and giving them to non-elected bodies. I believe fervently that that is true, which is why I shall have nothing to do with their definition of economic and monetary union.

Maggie Thatcher, Hard ECUs, and the Eurozone shambles | afoe | A Fistful of Euros | European Opinion (http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/maggie-thatcher-hard-ecus-and-the-eurozone-shambles/)
And thus did spake the Thatcher, and so it came to pass as had been foretold.


And all hail Godron, saviour of the universe (twice), for keeping us out too (possibly for mental reasons, but hey)?


Meanwhile...
Britain draws up survival plans for life after the euro to avoid plunging into another recession | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037528/Britain-draws-survival-plans-life-euro-avoid-plunging-recession.html#ixzz1XyAn0tSK)

Britain is drawing up contingency plans for a catastrophic collapse of the euro which experts fear could plunge our economy back into a recession ‘beyond comprehension’.

Or should the UK bite the bullet and ride in to Europe in shining armour to stand shoulder to shoulder with Germany, laying chequebook and sovereignty on the table and announcing, "ve bist in. Ve vill stand or fall vist Gemany. Have a large sum of money Greece, and you too Italy, and there's more where that came from".

doodab
15th September 2011, 11:15
It's a gamble. We need to plan for the € collapsing but we also need to consider that if a true US of Europe emerges over the next 10 years and we are left out that could also be disadvantageous for us.

sasguru
15th September 2011, 11:50
It's a gamble. We need to plan for the € collapsing but we also need to consider that if a true US of Europe emerges over the next 10 years and we are left out that could also be disadvantageous for us.

Or advantageous.
Plenty of economies thrive on the edge of large ones by having other specialisms.

doodab
15th September 2011, 11:54
Or advantageous.
Plenty of economies thrive on the edge of large ones by having other specialisms.

Yes, it could go either way.

Mich the Tester
15th September 2011, 11:55
Yes, it could go either way.

It's a game of two halves.

AtW
15th September 2011, 12:00
Or advantageous.
Plenty of economies thrive on the edge of large ones by having other specialisms.

What's your specialism?

Gibbon
15th September 2011, 12:03
It's a gamble. We need to plan for the € collapsing but we also need to consider that if a true US of Europe emerges over the next 10 years and we are left out that could also be disadvantageous for us.


Consider, fecking nonsense! consider your consideration again, carefully.

For a starter, think about the rise of the american nation and the current fragmenting of modern europe including our own United Kingdom with devolution et al.

Churchill
15th September 2011, 12:06
Or advantageous.
Plenty of economies thrive on the edge of large ones by having other specialisms.


What's your specialism?

Oh the ironing!

TimberWolf
15th September 2011, 12:16
Couldn't this be resolved were Greece and other countries borrowing money required to put down some collateral? Something tangible that people [easterners probably] would buy or invest in? Okay, I mentioned Corfu the other day tongue in cheek, but maybe privatisations or something. Not sure what else 'something' could comprise. Have Greece got nothing of value?

doodab
15th September 2011, 12:28
For a starter, think about the rise of the american nation and the current fragmenting of modern europe including our own United Kingdom with devolution et al.

That is exactly what I am thinking of. The american nation was pretty fragmented itself, once upon a time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War), and it still is in many ways. Much of what got it started and what makes it hang together was adversity, fighting for a common cause, which is something Europe now has for possibly the first time in it's history. Ask the average European if they wanted more integration 5 years ago and they may well have said "no", but now given a choice between further integration or a return to the pre EU days many of them might feel rather differently. Even the Germans.

Mich the Tester
15th September 2011, 12:28
Couldn't this be resolved were Greece and other countries borrowing money required to put down some collateral? Something tangible that people [easterners probably] would buy or invest in? Okay, I mentioned Corfu the other day tongue in cheek, but maybe privatisations or something. Not sure what else 'something' could comprise. Have Greece got nothing of value?

The Elgin Marbles?

oops :igmc:

Lockhouse
15th September 2011, 12:48
Watching Thatcher's famous Euro speech on YouTube (I don't have a link as I'm at work but it's the one about 15 mins long) makes one realise;

1) She was extraordinarily prescient about what would happen to Europe.

2) We don't have proper politicians anymore.

Doggy Styles
15th September 2011, 13:12
It's a gamble. We need to plan for the € collapsing but we also need to consider that if a true US of Europe emerges over the next 10 years and we are left out that could also be disadvantageous for us.Being left out of the US of Europe would be a blessing. What would we want to subsume ourselves into that for?

We only want to trade with other countries, and it's to nobody's advantage to prevent an independent UK from doing so.

craig1
15th September 2011, 13:18
3) She was as mad as a box of frogs by the end.

Didn't like the woman in the slightest but even at her most insane and scary she was still more competent than any prime minister since. I can't ever imagine her hugging a hoodie.

DodgyAgent
15th September 2011, 13:28
Didn't like the woman in the slightest but even at her most insane and scary she was still more competent than any prime minister since. I can't ever imagine her hugging a hoodie.

I could even now :tongue

Churchill
15th September 2011, 13:31
I can.

She'd use a garotte.

Tebbit would use a garotte. Thatcher would use a stiletto - and I don't mean the shoe...

BlasterBates
15th September 2011, 13:33
Hang on a mo, the reason why Thatcher said that wasn't because she'd had some superhuman premonition into what would happen. What she'd done was observe East and West Germany unifying their currencies and the sudden collapse of East German indusrties that required huge transfers.

This did not happen. In other words unifying the currencies did not lead to an immediate collapse of weaker economies that required immediate fiscal transfers.

What has happened is that countries have "gorged" themselves on cheap debt, and left French and German banks so exposed that they're now forced to keep them going until the banks have sufficient capital.

Now we can argue that she was right "sort of" but she didn't predict that. It's more "luck".

People are reading a bit much in here, with her foresight.

doodab
15th September 2011, 13:45
Being left out of the US of Europe would be a blessing. What would we want to subsume ourselves into that for?

We only want to trade with other countries, and it's to nobody's advantage to prevent an independent UK from doing so.

At the moment we are equal members of the EU. We have a hand in shaping EU legislation. A US of E would shift the balance of power considerably, it would become the dominant member of any larger European trade block, we would potentially have less power in shaping wider EU legislation and no influence whatsoever over the constitution of the US of E. So we might well find it more difficult and costly to trade with such a partner as a consequence. We might also start to appear less attractive as a financial centre compared to one located in the US of E itself, and the UK might also find it harder to attract the sort of foreign investment which sees the UK as a good place to set up shop in the EU.

BlasterBates
15th September 2011, 13:58
The United States of Europe aint going to happen, but what will happen is that EU fiscal rules will have to be strengthened. The closest you will get to a "United States of Europe" is Eurobonds.

DodgyAgent
15th September 2011, 14:05
I worry about you.

I am just glad I am not gay

Churchill
15th September 2011, 14:12
I am just glad I am not gay

Give my love to the Snow Queen when you see her!

xoggoth
15th September 2011, 14:12
Sometimes you can't help wondering if a lot of things would be much better if old Adolph had won (not some obviously). Democracy would probably have returned by now and we would have an EU, shaped by German efficiency, that really worked.

Churchill
15th September 2011, 14:13
Sometimes you can't help wondering if a lot of things would be much better if old Adolph had won (not some obviously). Democracy would probably have returned by now and we would have an EU, shaped by German efficiency, that really worked.

Nurse!!!

stek
15th September 2011, 14:25
Sometimes you can't help wondering if a lot of things would be much better if old Adolph had won (not some obviously). Democracy would probably have returned by now and we would have an EU, shaped by German efficiency, that really worked.

German efficiency is a myth, ask my missus who waited 5 months for a WP, having to move it from Amt desk to desk by mere phone call alone...

Anyway, Hitler would have pissed the Grosse Deutsche billions on the Welthaupthalle and Germania, all of which put the Neuer Reichkanzlei into the shade, the test footings for it still exist in Berlin.

Doggy Styles
15th September 2011, 14:32
At the moment we are equal members of the EU. We have a hand in shaping EU legislation. A US of E would shift the balance of power considerably, it would become the dominant member of any larger European trade block, we would potentially have less power in shaping wider EU legislation and no influence whatsoever over the constitution of the US of E. So we might well find it more difficult and costly to trade with such a partner as a consequence. We might also start to appear less attractive as a financial centre compared to one located in the US of E itself, and the UK might also find it harder to attract the sort of foreign investment which sees the UK as a good place to set up shop in the EU.If all we did was trade with the EU, why would we want to shape EU legislation? On the contrary, reducing our adoption of EU legislation would, on balance, increase competitive advantage. If the EU were going to take away London's advantage as a financial centre, surely it would have done so long ago, especially when it introduced the common currency.

It's all a matter of opinion though, I accept that. I just don't believe in a big monolithic centralised state. To me, smaller independent states are more agile states who can do what's best for them.

doodab
15th September 2011, 14:42
If all we did was trade with the EU, why would we want to shape EU legislation? On the contrary, reducing our adoption of EU legislation would, on balance, increase competitive advantage. If the EU were going to take away London's advantage as a financial centre, surely it would have done so long ago, especially when it introduced the common currency.

It's all a matter of opinion though, I accept that. I just don't believe in a big monolithic centralised state. To me, smaller independent states are more agile states who can do what's best for them.

Why do we want to shape it now? Because it's in our interest to do so.

You are confusing the EU we already have with the future state. The EU benefits from having london as part of it, a future european superstate may not want the competition on it's doorstep, or might introduce a lot of legislation constraining the activities of financial institutions. It might even decide it didn't need the EU anymore.

The US, China and India are all big monolithic states composed of smaller states. All of them have their problems, sure, but a united europe doesn't seem so far fetched when you see it as the fourth member of the gang. And you can see which end of the stick the uk gets to hold in our relations with the US.

Peoplesoft bloke
15th September 2011, 15:59
Sometimes you can't help wondering if a lot of things would be much better if old Adolph had won (not some obviously). Democracy would probably have returned by now and we would have an EU, shaped by German efficiency, that really worked.

Hilarious. The Germans might have won if Adolf hadn't been so mental, so extending your nonsensical argument, we'd probably be suffering under one of his (political if not blood) descendants.

The Germans are very good at spinning the myth of their superior technology etc, but it is just a myth.

Much of their success is precisley down to the kind of surrender of individual freedoms that would horrify all the pathetic aspirants who Thatcher was their path to prosperity rather than ruin.

No mowing your lawn or DIY on Sunday, church-based taxes , yeah Germany......

Doggy Styles
15th September 2011, 16:02
Hilarious. The Germans might have won if Adolf hadn't been so mental, so extending your nonsensical argument, we'd probably be suffering under one of his (political if not blood) descendants.

The Germans are very good at spinning the myth of their superior technology etc, but it is just a myth.

Much of their success is precisley down to the kind of surrender of individual freedoms that would horrify all the pathetic aspirants who Thatcher was their path to prosperity rather than ruin.

No mowing your lawn or DIY on Sunday, church-based taxes , yeah Germany......Don't forget post offices closed 12 to 2pm at lunchtimes...

stek
15th September 2011, 16:14
Don't forget post offices closed 12 to 2pm at lunchtimes...

And no Cashback! Denied!

Peoplesoft bloke
15th September 2011, 18:09
And no washing your own car - in fact even the Butler can't do it except within v.strict rules.

moorfield
15th September 2011, 20:15
Watching Thatcher's famous Euro speech on YouTube (I don't have a link as I'm at work but it's the one about 15 mins long) makes one realise;

1) She was extraordinarily prescient about what would happen to Europe.

2) We don't have proper politicians anymore.

This is the one I think. No no no !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4

darrenb
15th September 2011, 22:01
Much of their success is precisley down to the kind of surrender of individual freedoms that would horrify all the pathetic aspirants who Thatcher was their path to prosperity rather than ruin.

No mowing your lawn or DIY on Sunday, church-based taxes , yeah Germany......

What's worse, not being allowed to mow your lawn on a Sunday, or not having a lawn to mow in the first place because house prices are too high.

As for the DIY, I wouldn't mind not being allowed to do it as long as I could persuade somebody else to do my DIY for me.

AtW
15th September 2011, 22:03
Thatcher the milk snatcher.

That about sums it up what I know about her.

Well, that and destroyer of UK industrial capability, but who doesn't know the obvious? :eyes

MarillionFan
15th September 2011, 22:07
Thatcher the milk snatcher.

That about sums it up what I know about her.

Well, that and destroyer of UK industrial capability, but who doesn't know the obvious? :eyes

:mad

AtW
15th September 2011, 22:11
:mad

Looks like she snatched your milk too :eyes

MarillionFan
15th September 2011, 22:21
Looks like she snatched your milk too :eyes

One of my favourite clips.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw&feature=related

MarillionFan
15th September 2011, 22:22
Or


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvz8tg4MVpA&feature=related

Where did we go wrong?

Oh yeah. Labour.

MarillionFan
15th September 2011, 22:25
Or how about Credit Cards.:laugh


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3CWb9O-q50&feature=related

:laugh

MarillionFan
15th September 2011, 22:27
The stench of appeasement


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoUW93Buv_4&feature=related

A lady of pure class.

AtW
15th September 2011, 22:28
Err, that's good but this is a better memory of the 80s:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiuHdUkuRi0

MarillionFan
15th September 2011, 22:34
Some hardcore Pot noodle material for AtW


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw7KmYjnHYs

TimberWolf
15th September 2011, 23:48
Check out how hot Pamela Stephenson was in the 80s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM_2i9CDJpE

Not The Nine O'Clock News - England, My Leotard - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMXIro1P_7g)