Towards a European Super State

**Doggy Styles** · 17 September 2011, 08:33

Nobody said it was impossible. They've said that for the euro to work at all the countries have got to become one. Be thankful we are not one of them.

George is playing political games.

**Paddy** · 17 September 2011, 08:41

Originally posted by doodab View Post

It's looks like George Osborne agrees with me

(from BBC News - George Osborne says time is short to save the euro)

The consensus seems to be that this can go one of two ways, either the euro disintegrates or there is a move towards a tighter fiscal union, which I think requires some sort of federal tax system and federal budget (which we already have to some degree). Although both scenarios seemed unlikely a few years ago one or the other now seems inevitable. It seems that on here at least I'm alone in thinking that the second option will come to pass with most of you thinking it's an impossibility. Anybody care to explain why?

What a load of cock from George Osborne. How much are we paying these ministers?

On one side of the Euro Zone, the countries’ citizens have high wages a good infrastructure, on the other side of the Euro Zone the countries’ citizens have low wages (300 Euros a month) and poor infrastructure such a mud roads and 1930s phone systems. How can they be taxed the same?

**VectraMan** · 17 September 2011, 08:43

There's too much resistance to a super-state, and too much invested in the Euro concept to have it fail completely. I think the outcome of all this will be the Euro losing a few member countries, but carrying on largely unscathed. EU-haters always want to predict that the whole thing will collapse therefore proving them right, or that the whole thing will become a federal Europe dominated conveniently by ze Germans, therefore proving them right, but neither of those things are very likely.

**doodab** · 17 September 2011, 08:47

Originally posted by Paddy View Post

What a load of cock from George Osborne. How much are we paying these ministers?

On one side of the Euro Zone, the countries’ citizens have high wages a good infrastructure, on the other side of the Euro Zone the countries’ citizens have low wages (300 Euros a month) and poor infrastructure such a mud roads and 1930s phone systems. How can they be taxed the same?

Why do you think they would be taxed the same? The combination of federal taxes, state taxes, sales taxes and duties and such like needn't work out uniform at all.

**Paddy** · 17 September 2011, 08:57

Originally posted by doodab View Post

Why do you think they would be taxed the same? The combination of federal taxes, state taxes, sales taxes and duties and such like needn't work out uniform at all.

The taxes would have to be uniform. Already there are EU guidelines for uniform on Duty for fuel etc although the UK ignores it.

Income tax would have to be a flat rate such as 10-20% it could work.
Road Tax, would you pay £300 per year (one month’s wage for some countries) for road tax?
Council Tax, the UK Council Tax is around £1,600 per year while in other parts of Europe it is as low as £20 per year.

**doodab** · 17 September 2011, 09:00

Originally posted by VectraMan View Post

There's too much resistance to a super-state, and too much invested in the Euro concept to have it fail completely. I think the outcome of all this will be the Euro losing a few member countries, but carrying on largely unscathed. EU-haters always want to predict that the whole thing will collapse therefore proving them right, or that the whole thing will become a federal Europe dominated conveniently by ze Germans, therefore proving them right, but neither of those things are very likely.

I'm sure there won't be a great deal of resistance from the eurocrats themselves. I don't doubt it will be a hard sell for national leaders but the consensus among economists seems to be that it can only work with proper fiscal integration and an awful lot of people thought and still think this was always in the pipeline. My feeling is that the current crisis is simply accelerating the process so that we will see some form of federal tax system, perhaps replacing the existing contribution system, within the next decade or so rather than it taking another 30 years. I suspect that if the existing contribution system was replaced with something "fairer" that would make it an easier sell.

**doodab** · 17 September 2011, 09:01

Originally posted by Paddy View Post

The taxes would have to be uniform.

Why?

They aren't uniform in the US, or Switzerland. I don't know about China or India.

In fact, even within Germany they have non uniform taxes at the moment.

**sasguru** · 17 September 2011, 09:15

There was a sizeable amount of people who warned the Euro was unfeasible in the long term because of the wide divergence of Euro economies.
So now that this entirely predictable outcome has come to pass, you're arguing that the solution to perpetuating what was a stupid idea in the first place is to create more more bureaucracy via a superstate?

The only winners in that scenario would be the political and bureaucratic class who would feed at its trough.

**doodab** · 17 September 2011, 09:50

Originally posted by sasguru View Post

There was a sizeable amount of people who warned the Euro was unfeasible in the long term because of the wide divergence of Euro economies.
So now that this entirely predictable outcome has come to pass, you're arguing that the solution to perpetuating what was a stupid idea in the first place is to create more more bureaucracy via a superstate?

I'm not saying it would be a solution to anything, I'm saying it seems just as likely an outcome as the death of the euro.

Originally posted by sasguru View Post

The only winners in that scenario would be the political and bureaucratic class who would feed at its trough.

That makes it all the more likely to come to pass, IMO.

Towards a European Super State