Working practices & IR35

[PTP]

Am I jumping to the right or wrong conclusions here?

I'm still in the early days of my contract - hence why yesterday I was concerned about DPA, AML, H&S training. Today I got invited to the staff Christmas afternoon, the permie said "I know you probably won't want to come because it will be half a day's money, but would you like to come?", I said "no, because it could make a difference to tax issues, I need to differentiate myself from employees".

I've been told I'm on the "Absence Planner" along with the rest of the team and need to log on there when I want time off. Whereas I'd rather just send an e-mail to the team leader to discuss time off. I haven't seen the Absence Planner yet but I bet it will need the team leader to click an "Approve" button. Do you see this as a case of "just because I exist on a system doesn't make me inside IR35", or does this one? In the end, I said to the same person as the xmas doo, that "I'd rather arrange time off by e-mail for the same reasons as before"

Today when leaving, the manager pointed out to me that the dress code permits not wearing suit/tie and dress down Friday's but said of course I can carry on with suit/tie if I want. This got me worried that the manager thinks they have control over what I wear - and many other things!!!

I'd find it useful if on Tuesday's I could be on lunch until 2:15. I haven't tried it yet and haven't seen any "core hours" policy yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it does get mentioned to me when I test it. Have any of you ever tried saying to your client "No, such rules don't apply to me" and not lost your contract?

NLUK wrote

So what??? I wish people would understand IR35 and not jump to the conclusion just because they exist on a system or are asked to take some mandatory training they suddenly become inside.

You also have an entry on their Active Directory and email system like the permies. Are you going to demand you get removed?????

There are many flags and it is about whether you are treated as a permie, existing on a system isn't necessarily one of them. If you have to exist on their training database as it is the system they use to record the fact you have taken this training then so be it. It means **** all else. Everyone contractor from global outsources to your 1 man band will exist on the same system. Just think about it a little without jumping to incorrect conclusions.

[kingcook]

I'm still in the early days of my contract - hence why yesterday I was concerned about DPA, AML, H&S training. Today I got invited to the staff Christmas afternoon, the permie said "I know you probably won't want to come because it will be half a day's money, but would you like to come?", I said "no, because it could make a difference to tax issues, I need to differentiate myself from employees".

WRT training, remind them that you're here to provide services via your LtdCo, and that the reason they hired you was due to the specific skill you have - you don't need any training. Unless of course, this is just H&S like where the fire escapes are, etc etc.

I've been told I'm on the "Absence Planner" along with the rest of the team and need to log on there when I want time off. Whereas I'd rather just send an e-mail to the team leader to discuss time off. I haven't seen the Absence Planner yet but I bet it will need the team leader to click an "Approve" button. Do you see this as a case of "just because I exist on a system doesn't make me inside IR35", or does this one? In the end, I said to the same person as the xmas doo, that "I'd rather arrange time off by e-mail for the same reasons as before"

You should not be requesting time off as a contractor. See other posts on here, but others go about informing the client/PM/whoever that they won't be in the office on whichever days. Then ask them if this will be a problem. It may be a problem if e.g. something is due to be deployed that day and you're needed to ensure it runs OK, or if there is some meeting about the project already arranged. I would refuse to "ask" them. If they want to write on some board that you won't be in that day, then that's upto them. If they get shirty, point them to the part of your contract that states the relationship between you and the client is not one of employer-employee.

Today when leaving, the manager pointed out to me that the dress code permits not wearing suit/tie and dress down Friday's but said of course I can carry on with suit/tie if I want. This got me worried that the manager thinks they have control over what I wear - and many other things!!!

I bought dress code up in a post recently. I just dress smart all the time. The client's employees dress down on Friday. I just carry on dressing in my smart gear - it differentiates me from the permies!

I'd find it useful if on Tuesday's I could be on lunch until 2:15. I haven't tried it yet and haven't seen any "core hours" policy yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it does get mentioned to me when I test it. Have any of you ever tried saying to your client "No, such rules don't apply to me" and not lost your contract?

Before i started my current contract, i sent an email to the PM saying that i'll be in the office @ XX00h on Monday morning and leaving @ XX00h on Friday each week, and that i'll be putting more hours in during the week to compensate for this -- just as a matter of courtesy. I didn't mention any specific start/end times for during the week. I have seen some "core hours" email knocking around, but i just ignore it and go for lunch, sometimes breakfast, when i feel like it.

Have you ever been working in an office (as permie or contractor) and some consultant from e.g. IBM have come in for a few days (and being paid something daft like £2K per day)? Have they every been told when to go on their lunch break? Not in my experience. I just try to think like a small business.

Some of the other contractors at current client co say "we". This word should be banned!! lol. Seriously though... this makes me cringe. I'm always careful to drop things into conversations such as "you, the client".

All might seem like minor points to some, but it helps keep myself in the business mood, makes me feel like a business on my own account. Of course there is lots more to IR35 and the like. But it all helps.

[kingcook]

Sorry, too much waffling there In answer to your question....

Have any of you ever tried saying to your client "No, such rules don't apply to me" and not lost your contract?

A client once asked me to look a Puppet to aid in keeping servers in sync/easy to deploy (i *think* that's what it's for!)

As i wasn't hired to work with Puppet (nor was i interested in learning it at the time), i politely declined (via email - whimp!) stating something like, "I don't have any experience of Puppet, and therefore will be unable to provide services relating to this".

Client was ok with that.

[TheFaQQer]

I'm still in the early days of my contract - hence why yesterday I was concerned about DPA, AML, H&S training. Today I got invited to the staff Christmas afternoon, the permie said "I know you probably won't want to come because it will be half a day's money, but would you like to come?", I said "no, because it could make a difference to tax issues, I need to differentiate myself from employees".

I wouldn't mention tax issues and wanting to seem different - makes you look a bit of a prat in my eyes. If you want to go to the Christmas lunch, then go to the lunch and don't bill for your time. See it as getting to know your customer better - you need to know what makes them tick to be able to get the best out of the contract.

I've been told I'm on the "Absence Planner" along with the rest of the team and need to log on there when I want time off. Whereas I'd rather just send an e-mail to the team leader to discuss time off. I haven't seen the Absence Planner yet but I bet it will need the team leader to click an "Approve" button. Do you see this as a case of "just because I exist on a system doesn't make me inside IR35", or does this one? In the end, I said to the same person as the xmas doo, that "I'd rather arrange time off by e-mail for the same reasons as before"

It's not an absence planner - it's a project management tool which indicates what resources are available at different points in time. If it has an "approval" facility, then steer clear - if not, then don't fret it.

Today when leaving, the manager pointed out to me that the dress code permits not wearing suit/tie and dress down Friday's but said of course I can carry on with suit/tie if I want. This got me worried that the manager thinks they have control over what I wear - and many other things!!!

You can wear what you want. However, if it's going to cause friction (and having worked on a project where everyone was dressed down bar our team of six because we worked for an idiot, I can relate to that), then why push it? They're not controlling what you wear.

I'd find it useful if on Tuesday's I could be on lunch until 2:15. I haven't tried it yet and haven't seen any "core hours" policy yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it does get mentioned to me when I test it. Have any of you ever tried saying to your client "No, such rules don't apply to me" and not lost your contract?

Manage the expectation. Explain that you'll be working a full day. Explain that if they need you around for anything special, then you can arrange around that.

Last year, someone on the project asked (as I was having lunch at 3 because I'd been busy) "what time do you normally have lunch?" in a manner which said "you should be working at this time - I think you've had two lunches and are taking the mickey with your working hours". I just said "normally about 1230 but today it's <check watch> oh, 3 already because I hoped to grab a quick chat about this issue with the team and it's rare to catch everyone at their desk at the same time..."

Never had a problem dealing with the client about my work schedule and productivity.

[BolshieBastard]

Im having similar issues with a new client regarding attendance at employee oriented roadshows. I dont have a problem with familiarisation of H&S or other client policies but think you have to draw the line regarding other employee type things.

Personally I wouldnt use any employee planner for absences. And I dont ask for time off, I tell them I will be off as I have no worked planned for delivery \ up to date with work etc.

I wouldnt bother about dress down day policy except to observe it. I wear a suit 4 days a week and on DDD wear casuals that fit the clients policy. There's no direction and control here imo.

I'd never say 'them rules dont apply to me' as bluntly as that.

I've asked for a meeting with the IT director to discuss his 'request' I attend the roadshow. TBH, I know sticking out like this is only going to go one way so Im already looking for my next contract. Im really not prepared to allow direction and control to this level as it's just too dangerous from an IR35 point of view.

Better to look for something else rather than get in a stand off everytime something like this comes up.

[SteelyDan]

I've asked for a meeting with the IT director to discuss his 'request' I attend the roadshow. TBH, I know sticking out like this is only going to go one way so Im already looking for my next contract. Im really not prepared to allow direction and control to this level as it's just too dangerous from an IR35 point of view.

Isn't this a bit over the top (genuine question)?

I've worked for many clients over the years; attended their roadshows, done their training, been to their Xmas functions/BBQs, ate in their canteen, got 'staff' discount in the canteen (10%), had a co security pass, & naturally been on the 'system' as we all need to have a co email address, etc, etc.

Has anyone here had direct experience of being investigated by HMRC and been deemed to be an 'employee' owing to them having attended any of the above events?

[psychocandy]

If you act like an awkward twat and demand your contractor rights for every little thing then all you're going to do is piss the client off.

Fair enough. There are some things that are not on. But fitting in with regards to dress code, being in office at beneficial time for client arent really a problem.

And yes, you dont have to 'ask' for leave like a permie but it'll just piss the client if you dont extend the courtesy of ensuring your plans dont cause them any undue hassle. And why cant they put you on a 'not in office' planner/board or whatever?

[psychocandy]

Have you ever been working in an office (as permie or contractor) and some consultant from e.g. IBM have come in for a few days (and being paid something daft like £2K per day)? Have they every been told when to go on their lunch break? Not in my experience. I just try to think like a small business.

No but if the IBM consultant turned up at 4pm and expected to do the work until midnight, then would the client be happy? Especially if things like site access had to be sorted, and, more importantly, interface with staff was needed...