So was the 2nd World War all for nothing?

[sasguru]

The 2nd World War was fought to prevent German hegemony over Europe.
But now it seems that most Europeans have become so soft they want their cossetted lives even if it means giving up freedom to the Germans.
And make no mistake the Germans will run the new organisation because he who pays the piper always call the tune.
I find it scary that politicians can just hand over their national sovereignity so easily.

[Mich the Tester]

Oh do please stop exaggerating.

[doodab]

The 2nd World War was fought to prevent German hegemony over Europe.
But now it seems that most Europeans have become so soft they want their cossetted lives even if it means giving up freedom to the Germans.
And make no mistake the Germans will run the new organisation because he who pays the piper always call the tune.
I find it scary that politicians can just hand over their national sovereignity so easily.

It's the Germans or the markets. You choose.

[Mich the Tester]

It's the Germans or the markets. You choose.

No I choose, seeing as I'm a eurozone tax payer.

The Germans.

[Mich the Tester]

The 2nd World War was fought to prevent German hegemony over Europe.
But now it seems that most Europeans have become so soft they want their cossetted lives even if it means giving up freedom to the Germans.
And make no mistake the Germans will run the new organisation because he who pays the piper always call the tune.
I find it scary that politicians can just hand over their national sovereignity so easily.

I would rephrase that. It now seems that bankers are so universally despised that Europeans whose countries have suffered occupation, genocide and starvation at the hands of Germany in recent history actually consider being ruled from Berlin as a preferable option to being held to ransom by bankers and ratings agencies.

Quite an achievement.

[sasguru]

I would rephrase that. It now seems that bankers are so universally despised that Europeans whose countries have suffered occupation, genocide and starvation at the hands of Germany in recent history actually consider being ruled from Berlin as a preferable option to being held to ransom by bankers and ratings agencies.

Quite an achievement.

Your understanding of the markets is woefully pitiful. Do you think bankers and Germans are mutually exclusive?
The 'markets' consist of large investors investing funds, usually pensions, for a long return, the ratings agencies are there to check that investments are safe, the bankers are there to ensure capital is efficiently distributed.
Temporary failings notwithstanding, this system works as excesses are usually destroyed by the system that created them - however painfully.

In any case there have two main excesses in the world economy to date:

(1) Sub prime: US banks lending to people who can't afford it and selling the resultant "assets" as safe..
(2) the Euro: the Germans creating an artificial environment to sell their goods in with an interest rate to suit them.

(1) exposed (2). (2) is much bigger than (1).
The Franco/Germans who created the Euro are as responsible as the banks for creating un unsustainable bubble.

[Mich the Tester]

Your understanding of the markets is woefully bla bla bla and you are a cretin

I know. I do not pretend to be an economic guru, although I may understand more of it than you think. However, I do have some understanding of human society, and I can see right now that all over Europe people are getting bloody angry and impatient and the free markets that supposedly make both you and me considerably wealthier than the average bod are now in great danger. They're in danger from the masses of people who feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are being screwed. You do not have to tell me about what has caused this mess; I know that this mess has been caused by governments overspending, a massive credit bubble, but also corruption on the part of some bankers and blinding incompetence on the part of ratings agencies.

I'm rather sick and tired of so called financial gurus telling the rest of the world that we're all too thick to understand. Maybe we are, with our degrees in various sciences, our inferior polytechnic education or our intellectual inferiority that sends us off to other countries to find work as IT specialists. But the fact remains that the store of all the world's wisdom that is 'the market' or indeed the intellectual powerhouses of the banking sector have turned the world's richest continent into a bloody mess.

And if the ratings agencies who are there 'to check that investments are safe' had any competence whatsoever, we wouldn't be in such a bloody mess. I see nothing, zero, zilch to even suggest that they are sorting out their ways.

It's no me you'll have to convince.

[sasguru]

I know. I do not pretend to be an economic guru, although I may understand more of it than you think. However, I do have some understanding of human society, and I can see right now that all over Europe people are getting bloody angry and impatient and the free markets that supposedly make both you and me considerably wealthier than the average bod are now in great danger. They're in danger from the masses of people who feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are being screwed. You do not have to tell me about what has caused this mess; I know that this mess has been caused by governments overspending, a massive credit bubble, but also corruption on the part of some bankers and blinding incompetence on the part of ratings agencies.

I'm rather sick and tired of so called financial gurus telling the rest of the world that we're all too thick to understand. Maybe we are, with our degrees in various sciences, our inferior polytechnic education or our intellectual inferiority that sends us off to other countries to find work as IT specialists. But the fact remains that the store of all the world's wisdom that is 'the market' or indeed the intellectual powerhouses of the banking sector have turned the world's richest continent into a bloody mess.
It's no me you'll have to convince.

Good rant but completely ignores the rather important point that the biggest bubble in the world was not caused by bankers but by Euro politicans.
It's a complete lack of education in economics that's to blame.
The Euro was an attempt to buck the markets by setting a common interest rate for countries with widely diverging economies.
It worked temporarily and created an illusion of prosperity, but in the end the inevitable happened.
What the people of Europe don't understand is that they need more genuinely free markets not less - throwing out the baby with the bath water is a little stupid.

[Mich the Tester]

What the people of Europe don't understand is that they need more genuinely free markets not less - throwing out the baby with the bath water is a little stupid.

This is the standard right winged claim that I used to believe. Unfortunately I don't believe it any more. Oh, and I've had some economic education.

That's the point, you see, when educated middle class people turn against free markets, we're all in trouble, and that's what is now happening. You won't win them back by calling them stupid.

[Arturo Bassick]

Gentlemen, you are confusing Germany with Nazis. The WWII was fought against the Nazis who just happened to rise in Germany. The Germany of today is a much different place and this constant racial stereotyping is disgraceful.