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mrdonuts
22nd December 2011, 10:59
it seems that to get the equivalent of Public Sector pension you would need to put 50% of your private sector pay into a pension fund and even then it would be subject to the vagaries of the stock market unlike the guaranteed PS inflation linked one

so am considering going for a Public Sector job

£45k job is really a £67.5k real job plus 8 weeks paid holiday a year plus paid sick days plus flexi time plus no pressure to deliver plus live at home

SimonMac
22nd December 2011, 11:02
it seems that to get the equivalent of Public Sector pension you would need to put 50% of your private sector pay into a pension fund and even then it would be subject to the vagaries of the stock market unlike the guaranteed PS inflation linked one

so am considering going for a Public Sector job

£45k job is really a £67.5k real job plus 8 weeks paid holiday a year plus paid sick days plus flexi time plus no pressure to deliver plus live at home

Not sure where you get the 8 weeks paid holiday, 5 if your lucky and then maybe a increase after working there for god knows how many years.

Mich the Tester
22nd December 2011, 11:13
it seems that to get the equivalent of Public Sector pension you would need to put 50% of your private sector pay into a pension fund and even then it would be subject to the vagaries of the stock market unlike the guaranteed PS inflation linked one

so am considering going for a Public Sector job

£45k job is really a £67.5k real job plus 8 weeks paid holiday a year plus paid sick days plus flexi time plus no pressure to deliver plus live at home

And still they go on strike.

Belgian public sector are going on strike today because they'll have to retire at 62 instead of 60!

gingerjedi
22nd December 2011, 11:15
it seems that to get the equivalent of Public Sector pension you would need to put 50% of your private sector pay into a pension fund and even then it would be subject to the vagaries of the stock market unlike the guaranteed PS inflation linked one

so am considering going for a Public Sector job

£45k job is really a £67.5k real job plus 8 weeks paid holiday a year plus paid sick days plus flexi time plus no pressure to deliver plus live at home

You win the prize for this weeks 'No shit Sherlock' competition.

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 11:16
Would you really want to be a civil servant though? it's not that great

Outdated tech
Politics
Lack of decision making

But to name a few, I found my time in the CS very frustrating

Mich the Tester
22nd December 2011, 11:29
Would you really want to be a civil servant though? it's not that great

Outdated tech
Politics
Lack of decision making

But to name a few, I found my time in the CS very frustrating

True, although you can come across the same crap in multinationals some of them do at least give you the authority to take decisions and get things done.

d000hg
22nd December 2011, 11:36
And still they go on strike.

Belgian public sector are going on strike today because they'll have to retire at 62 instead of 60!It doesn't matter how good your deal is, you would be narked if they make it less good.

Hence American Football/Basketball leagues threatening not to play for a whole season because players are asked to play an extra couple of games per season for the same money... $millions/year but it's (they say) a point of principle.

Or if you are on £1000/day and they impose a 10% rate cut - you'd still be annoyed.

Mich the Tester
22nd December 2011, 11:39
It doesn't matter how good your deal is, you would be narked if they make it less good.

Hence American Football/Basketball leagues threatening not to play for a whole season because players are asked to play an extra couple of games per season for the same money... $millions/year but it's (they say) a point of principle.

Or if you are on £1000/day and they impose a 10% rate cut - you'd still be annoyed.

Yep, but given the economic circumstances it's pretty clear that there have to be savings; it's not fair, but it's necessary.

bobspud
22nd December 2011, 11:52
Not sure where you get the 8 weeks paid holiday, 5 if your lucky and then maybe a increase after working there for god knows how many years.

A government department I worked at used to have charts on the wall for the staff to book time off sick in advance when I was there many years ago. I would doubt that they have stopped doing that...

gingerjedi
22nd December 2011, 11:54
A government department I worked at used to have charts on the wall for the staff to book time off sick in advance when I was there many years ago. I would doubt that they have stopped doing that...

They're long gone, they now use an excel spreadsheet.

mrdonuts
22nd December 2011, 12:08
Not sure where you get the 8 weeks paid holiday, 5 if your lucky and then maybe a increase after working there for god knows how many years.

min statutory is 28 days i believe then they get all the extra days for this and that (e.g. turning up to work five days in a row merits an extra holiday type award)

The_Equalizer
22nd December 2011, 12:14
For what it is worth you get about five days for Easter, the same for Christmas plus twenty-three days holiday plus of course bank holidays. That was at a university.

Support Monkey
22nd December 2011, 12:17
Would you really want to be a civil servant though? it's not that great

Outdated tech
Politics
Lack of decision making

But to name a few, I found my time in the CS very frustrating

Tis all true, it will rot your brain in no time, i have never worked with so much dead wood and people cruising to pension time, and yes you can get 30 days holiday if you survive for about 25 years

DodgyAgent
22nd December 2011, 12:20
it seems that to get the equivalent of Public Sector pension you would need to put 50% of your private sector pay into a pension fund and even then it would be subject to the vagaries of the stock market unlike the guaranteed PS inflation linked one

so am considering going for a Public Sector job

£45k job is really a £67.5k real job plus 8 weeks paid holiday a year plus paid sick days plus flexi time plus no pressure to deliver plus live at home

Your value in the permanent market will fall

Old Greg
22nd December 2011, 12:31
it seems that to get the equivalent of Public Sector pension you would need to put 50% of your private sector pay into a pension fund and even then it would be subject to the vagaries of the stock market unlike the guaranteed PS inflation linked one

so am considering going for a Public Sector job

£45k job is really a £67.5k real job plus 8 weeks paid holiday a year plus paid sick days plus flexi time plus no pressure to deliver plus live at home

Try a day trip to reality, and then stick your toe in the job market if you like it.

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 12:48
A government department I worked at used to have charts on the wall for the staff to book time off sick in advance when I was there many years ago. I would doubt that they have stopped doing that...

I worked in Companies House and they had 29 days standard on joining and people still factored in how much sick leave they could take on top of that not too mention we could take up to 2.5 days a month flexi

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 12:53
Tis all true, it will rot your brain in no time, i have never worked with so much dead wood and people cruising to pension time, and yes you can get 30 days holiday if you survive for about 25 years

It sure is true, it drains any ambition you had out of you and then you start weighing up your benefits against those in the private sector and realise you're better off so you stay in the most mundane job in the hope retirement will come around quicker.

What is there to say that they won't change the pension again?

DimPrawn
22nd December 2011, 12:54
Your value in the permanent market will fall

It's falling anyway with rate cuts, pay cuts and layoffs.

Take a trip to Spain or Cyprus or France and see which are the Brits smiling in the sun aged 50 with full inflation linked pensions, not a worry in the world. I can tell you now, they ain't been working in the private sector.

All ex-coppers, doctors, civil servants.

SimonMac
22nd December 2011, 12:57
min statutory is 28 days i believe then they get all the extra days for this and that (e.g. turning up to work five days in a row merits an extra holiday type award)

28 days which include all bank holidays

Support Monkey
22nd December 2011, 13:08
And your assuming you won't get tuped out to some private sector outsourcing company which is what has happened where i am and thats a whole new ball game, trying to get ex public sector to provide a private sector service back to the public sector, don't make me laugh

Freamon
22nd December 2011, 13:17
And your assuming you won't get tuped out to some private sector outsourcing company which is what has happened where i am and thats a whole new ball game, trying to get ex public sector to provide a private sector service back to the public sector, don't make me laugh

Plus TUPE legislation is about to change (http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2011/12/tupe-terms-could-be-binned/) so that those transferred to a private sector company don't get to keep all of their benefits. Just in time for privatisation of the NHS...

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 13:41
28 days which include all bank holidays

Companies House have 29 days standard not including bank holidays

MrRobin
22nd December 2011, 13:44
TfL give about 30 days holiday IIRC. (Bank holidays not included)

hugebrain
22nd December 2011, 13:52
The worst thing is we already work more hours for the public sector than public sector workers!

e.g A teacher working 9 months 9-4 with an hour for lunch < 11 months working 9 - 6 * 60% Tax.

Sysman
22nd December 2011, 13:57
Tis all true, it will rot your brain in no time, i have never worked with so much dead wood and people cruising to pension time, and yes you can get 30 days holiday if you survive for about 25 years

Yep. My father got 6 weeks by the end.

He also used to fall asleep in his armchair every workday evening. The office politics got to him.

d000hg
22nd December 2011, 14:00
Yep, but given the economic circumstances it's pretty clear that there have to be savings; it's not fair, but it's necessary.No argument there... but when a bank says the same thing and issues a cut we don't post on CUK about how it's a shame, but we'll pull together ;)


e.g A teacher working 9 months 9-4 with an hour for lunch < 11 months working 9 - 6 * 60% Tax.Generally getting to school before the children is advisable. And these "mandatory 1 hour lunch breaks" are often a joke, the same way leaving your 9-5 job at 5 on the dot is a bad idea.

SimonMac
22nd December 2011, 14:04
The worst thing is we already work more hours for the public sector than public sector workers!

e.g A teacher working 9 months 9-4 with an hour for lunch < 11 months working 9 - 6 * 60% Tax.

I know several teachers who will show in great detail how they do a lot more than 9-4 for 9 months of the year

Sysman
22nd December 2011, 14:04
Plus TUPE legislation is about to change (http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2011/12/tupe-terms-could-be-binned/) so that those transferred to a private sector company don't get to keep all of their benefits. Just in time for privatisation of the NHS...

I caught a whiiff of this back in about 1995 when teachers and health care folks were being asked to go and work for private companies and they started asking questions about registering as self-employed etc.

This was probably what inspired all that IR35 stuff about Friday to Monday contractors. It probably inspired IR35 itself.

Be careful what you wish for?

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 14:07
The worst thing is we already work more hours for the public sector than public sector workers!

e.g A teacher working 9 months 9-4 with an hour for lunch < 11 months working 9 - 6 * 60% Tax.

I don't have a problem with certain parts of the public sector, like those that have to pay a large amount of their salary into their pension. But when you know that the majority only pay 1.5-3% at most and the type of pension that they get it's ridiculous

TestMangler
22nd December 2011, 14:15
it seems that to get the equivalent of Public Sector pension you would need to put 50% of your private sector pay into a pension fund and even then it would be subject to the vagaries of the stock market unlike the guaranteed PS inflation linked one

so am considering going for a Public Sector job

£45k job is really a £67.5k real job plus 8 weeks paid holiday a year plus paid sick days plus flexi time plus no pressure to deliver plus live at home

You lost your arguement at that point. Unless you're getting that per quarter, why bother making the switch ???

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 14:58
The way that the pension used to work was that for each year you worked you would accrue 1/60th so if you worked for 40 years you would have 40/60th's (2/3rd's) of your final salary to retire on. So if you had a decent job toward the end of your civil service career you were laughing.

SimonMac
22nd December 2011, 15:07
The way that the pension used to work was that for each year you worked you would accrue 1/60th so if you worked for 40 years you would have 40/60th's (2/3rd's) of your final salary to retire on. So if you had a decent job toward the end of your civil service career you were laughing.

This has not been the case for sometime now so your point is moot

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 15:23
This has not been the case for sometime now so your point is moot

Not in CH it's not, this is from personal experience and does not relate to all government departments. I still have a very many friends there and it's only of late that things are starting to change

MrRobin
22nd December 2011, 15:31
The way that the pension used to work was that for each year you worked you would accrue 1/60th so if you worked for 40 years you would have 40/60th's (2/3rd's) of your final salary to retire on. So if you had a decent job toward the end of your civil service career you were laughing.

For the NHS, atleast, it still works like this, except that it is on 'reckonable' pay, rather than final salary, which is unlikely to be much different.

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 15:35
For the NHS, atleast, it still works like this, except that it is on 'reckonable' pay, rather than final salary, which is unlikely to be much different.

Do they contribute a higher percentage of their pay towards their pension, I recall that the Police pay a minimum of 10%.

MrRobin
22nd December 2011, 15:40
Do they contribute a higher percentage of their pay towards their pension, I recall that the Police pay a minimum of 10%.

No I think it's 6.5% or something, but I'm not completely up to date. Isn't the police retirement age much lower, though? I don't know how the Hutton recommendations are going to change things.

mrdonuts
22nd December 2011, 15:53
anyone get the impression that simonmac is a public service sockie (probably a teacher )

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 15:59
No I think it's 6.5% or something, but I'm not completely up to date. Isn't the police retirement age much lower, though? I don't know how the Hutton recommendations are going to change things.

Yeah 20 years Service gets you 2/3rd's and 30 years gets you a full pension if I recall though that may have been subject to change as I have a friend who's in the police force and he told me many of the forces had put their pension pots with the Icelandic banks and we all know how that turned out.

TestMangler
22nd December 2011, 16:45
The way that the pension used to work was that for each year you worked you would accrue 1/60th so if you worked for 40 years you would have 40/60th's (2/3rd's) of your final salary to retire on. So if you had a decent job toward the end of your civil service career you were laughing.

When I was in the Civil Service ('79-'94) it was 80ths per year up to a maximum of half salary. I know people in certain professions got 60ths, but that was 'shorter career' stuff like fire service and police. Also, the maximum when I was there was half salary so you couldn't get more than 30/60 or 40/80 regardless of how long your service was. This was also topped off nicely with a lump sum of 3x annual pension on retirement right enough.

The Spartan
22nd December 2011, 16:49
I joined in 2001 and left in 2008, I remember thinking at the time how good the pension was to be able to have up to 2/3rd's of your annual income to retire on. But now I've been in the real world for a couple of years I can see that given on how much they actually contribute it's unsustainable. It's basic maths really

Old Greg
22nd December 2011, 17:39
For the NHS, atleast, it still works like this, except that it is on 'reckonable' pay, rather than final salary, which is unlikely to be much different.

I am almost certain that NHS has always been x/80, not x/60, but if it's /60 I'm quids in from my NHS service.

Civil Service was always x/60 but this was to compensate for lower wages - when I've worked alongside Department of Health people, there wages have always been considerably lower than they would have been in the NHS.

zara_backdog
22nd December 2011, 19:50
Not sure where you get the 8 weeks paid holiday, 5 if your lucky and then maybe a increase after working there for god knows how many years.

25 weeks where I am, increase to 30 after 2 years - most of them get flexi time still as well, 'tis why Fridays are always empty!

and they still bloody moan- 6pm in office tonight and there was 3 staff left out of a team of about 60and yes you guessed it we are all contractors

mrdonuts
22nd December 2011, 20:59
25 weeks where I am, increase to 30 after 2 years s

25 weeks its even worse than i suspected :tantrum::tantrum::tantrum::tantrum:

AtW
22nd December 2011, 21:04
It amuses me to see people seriously think about pensions like this - unless you are about to retire tomorrow rest assured that social security system as it is in the West is a just bigger version of Maddoff's pyramid.

Even if you get to pension age you won't live enough to enjoy it - most likely you'll be out of job for 10-15 years before pension kicks in due to increased threshold and stress of those year will kill you pretty quickly before you get any meaningful payout.

This assumes the pension won't be devalued due to money printing!

Freamon
22nd December 2011, 21:36
It's true to say that life expectancy in the West has peaked and is now in decline.

d000hg
22nd December 2011, 22:05
25 weeks where I am, increase to 30 after 2 years - most of them get flexi time still as well, 'tis why Fridays are always empty!That doesn't sound much different to any private client I worked at.

The Spartan
23rd December 2011, 09:00
I have to say I'm not too concerned about a pension at this point, I'm thinking I may invest my hard earned cash in another property after I've paid my current house off

BrilloPad
23rd December 2011, 09:02
It's true to say that life expectancy in the West has peaked and is now in decline.

eh? I thought it was still going up? Got any justification for that statement - I am very interested.

Though I still think penion age should be set at the average life expectancy age.

Freamon
23rd December 2011, 12:21
eh? I thought it was still going up? Got any justification for that statement - I am very interested.

Maybe this is what I was remembering:

Life expectancy declining in many parts of US (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jun2011/life-j16.shtml)

Although a quick google shows it seems to be declining in plenty of other places too.



Though I still think penion age should be set at the average life expectancy age.
None of the other options make any sense.

Jeff Maginty
23rd December 2011, 22:08
eh? I thought it was still going up? Got any justification for that statement - I am very interested.

Though I still think penion age should be set at the average life expectancy age.

I really don't know whether or not life expectancy in the Western world has peaked, but if it has, then maybe the following could be some reasons why...

1) Diet - more and more people living off highly-processed convenience food. The more you process food, the more you destroy nutrients (just my opinion - I'm not a nutritionist).

2) Sedentary lifestyles - school playing fields sold off years ago. People addicted to tv/computers/mobile-phones/internet.

3) Weaker relationships - families spread out accross the country (to find work), high proportion of failed marriages, people having dozens/hundreds of virtual friends on social networking websites instead of a few proper friends in real life. Relationships with other humans matters. No man is an island. It think I read somewhere that it's been shown statistically that people who have a strong social/relationship life tend to live longer than those who don't.

4) Stress - in the absence of war/famine/disease-epidemic, the biggest challenge nowadays for most of us is the rapid and relentless pace of change. Nothing seems to last nowadays. We are constantly having to adapt to new jobs/technology/economic-circumstances - even the climate seems to be changing and very unpredictable/extreme. Nowadays we are even expected to change electricity supplier every few months FFS!!! As if we didn't have better things to do!

5) Decline in religion - I say this as a person who is effectively an atheist (I consider myself spiritual but not religious). Regardless of whether or not God exists, a strong faith gives a person something to rely on and get comfort & reassurance from. As the saying goes: "If you believe in nothing... you'll fall for anything!". It's hard to explain, but if you live entirely for your own selfish desires with no faith/belief/respect for something bigger, then your life-force will be weaker. I'm sure there's a better way of putting it, but at 22:07 on a Friday night after a couple of lagers, this is the best I can do!

People generally in the West have lost their way, lost sight of what really matters. Everyone is so obsessed with superficial crap nowadays like aquiring more/better "stuff". Ironically, the ever more obsessive/desperate grasping for more and more material wealth is likely to ultimately lead to the loss of that very thing that people are trying to grasp so tightly (see: TAO-ism).

Freamon
23rd December 2011, 22:16
No man is an island.
"I am, I'm ******* Ibiza!"

Jeff Maginty
23rd December 2011, 22:22
The other thing to mention...

They did some study that showed that the earlier that a civil servant retired, the sooner they died. I think it was in "The WHICH? Guide To Pensions" that I read about 12 years ago (yes I am that sad!). I think the theory is that having a job gives a person a reason to get up in the morning and stay sharp/focused (ok, public sector so maybe not that sharp!). Whereas if you're retired with nothing much to do each day... then the will to live tends to weaken.

Freamon
23rd December 2011, 23:13
The other thing to mention...

They did some study that showed that the earlier that a civil servant retired, the sooner they died. I think it was in "The WHICH? Guide To Pensions" that I read about 12 years ago (yes I am that sad!). I think the theory is that having a job gives a person a reason to get up in the morning and stay sharp/focused (ok, public sector so maybe not that sharp!). Whereas if you're retired with nothing much to do each day... then the will to live tends to weaken.
I know a few that have taken "early retirement" on massive pensions and infuriatingly the above does not seem to have applied to them.