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BlasterBates
10th January 2012, 07:40
Well well...


Computer science graduates have the highest unemployment rate of any undergraduate degree, at 14.7%.


Britain's computer science courses failing to give workers digital skills | Education | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jan/09/computer-science-courses-digital-skills)

Graduate statistics (http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2206&Itemid=278)

Do something useful instead like "Meeja studies".

Joeman
10th January 2012, 07:48
Not suprised - they dont actually teach them anything useful anymore..
Got an intern working here at ClientCo who's a 2nd year CompSci undergrad on a work placement. When we started asking him what they actually tought in Uni these days we were amazed!
they guy had never even heard of "Assembler", and the only programming language he had seen (not coded in) is Java... He's a nice guy, but the stuff they are teaching undergrads these days isnt worth Sh1t...

Freamon
10th January 2012, 07:54
Not suprised - they dont actually teach them anything useful anymore..
Got an intern working here at ClientCo who's a 2nd year CompSci undergrad on a work placement. When we started asking him what they actually tought in Uni these days we were amazed!
they guy had never even heard of "Assembler", and the only programming language he had seen (not coded in) is Java... He's a nice guy, but the stuff they are teaching undergrads these days isnt worth Sh1t...

How many graduates are actually likely to need to know "Assembler" during their working life? I've never used it. He may have the opportunity to learn the basics in his final year if he picks a particular module option.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 08:05
How many graduates are actually likely to need to know "Assembler" during their working life? I've never used it. He may have the opportunity to learn the basics in his final year if he picks a particular module option.

probably will never use it, but if youre going to learn about computers, IMO you should know how they work, ie how the processor is working, and the low level stuff thats going on in there to make your FaceBook page load. They dont do hardly any Web stuff, apart from creating simple web sites in HTML, so no details about FTP/HTTP/TCP/IP, etc, just high level stuff. These poor kids may as well be using alien technology as they have no clue whats going on inside a PC.
Contrast this to a course like Biology for example, it would be like a Bio undergrad neve learning about cells and stuff, just looking at plants and animals, and ignoreing the inner workings...

I did more Computer Science in my Physics degree than these guys today are doing in compSci courses... we studdied semiconductors, super conductors, i did machine vision, and digital electronics and learnt at a fundamental level how a computer is working, and from day one we were expected to be fluent in the C programming languge to code up experiments and simulate complex mathematical stuff... Good luck to the current bunch of CompSci undergrads who only get to do HTML and look at Java code, and dont learn anything about Logic gates or low level workings of a CPU... its not computer science, its a glorified 'Basic IT' course - the course reading material is probably the ".. for dummies" range of books...

Old Greg
10th January 2012, 08:07
Well well...



Britain's computer science courses failing to give workers digital skills | Education | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jan/09/computer-science-courses-digital-skills)

Graduate statistics (http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2206&Itemid=278)

Do something useful instead like "Meeja studies".

Does anyone actually know what is taught in media studies? I know it's the bogey man of the unthinking Daily Mail reader, but maybe it is useful in the job market?

Arturo Bassick
10th January 2012, 08:10
Joeman: You are basing your entire opinion of all UK Uni CompSci courses on your experience with 1 student?

I have a Comp. Science degree. We covered "the basics" in the first year.

TimberWolf
10th January 2012, 08:18
This has been going on since New Labour got into power. Obviously if you outsource skills you are going to lose them.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 08:20
Joeman: You are basing your entire opinion of all UK Uni CompSci courses on your experience with 1 student?

I have a Comp. Science degree. We covered "the basics" in the first year.


When and where did you study?? i think its a recent problem that "the basics" have been dropped from courses because they are too challenging.. an no, its not based on one student, its based on a few that ive spoken to who just dont have a clue whats going on inside a PC. not that i care much though, as the fewer people who know the secrets, the better my day rate will be in a few years when the current set of undergrads are all fumbling about trying to do everything in HTML...

Arturo Bassick
10th January 2012, 08:20
This has been going on since New Labour got into power. Obviously if you outsource skills you are going to lose them.Most of the quotes from "industry leaders" says there is a shortage of quality candidates for most roles. That is at odds with the contract market. We should be thriving in those industries where skills are in short supply, but experience tells me this is not the case.

d000hg
10th January 2012, 08:29
probably will never use it, but if youre going to learn about computers, IMO you should know how they work, ie how the processor is working, and the low level stuff thats going onWell these days with things being so multithreaded and using 64bit ops and memory ranges, and running on ARM chips in mobile devices, it doesn't even work the way many understand assembly in the first place. I understand that stuff to a limited degree and personally I don't find it useful, apart from the few times I work on data-processing and use SSE intrinsics, etc. I agree it's good to know, but not required for a normal developer.


They dont do hardly any Web stuff, apart from creating simple web sites in HTML, so no details about FTP/HTTP/TCP/IP, etc, just high level stuff. These poor kids may as well be using alien technology as they have no clue whats going on inside a PC.Leaving out web stuff seems a big mistake... but you're making a massive generalisation saying "they" don't do this.


Good luck to the current bunch of CompSci undergrads who only get to do HTML and look at Java code, and dont learn anything about Logic gates or low level workings of a CPU... its not computer science, its a glorified 'Basic IT' course - the course reading material is probably the ".. for dummies" range of books...Again, that's one university, not all of them.
For reference I did about 1/2 a year of CompSci at university in 2001-3 (a few basic modules) and we covered Z, C++, Java & Haskell - so proper CompSci grads would have done far, far more.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 08:30
Most of the quotes from "industry leaders" says there is a shortage of quality candidates for most roles. That is at odds with the contract market. We should be thriving in those industries where skills are in short supply, but experience tells me this is not the case.

often the skills are in short supply because those skills dont pay well enough. As contractors, we are all fighting over the top paying roles..

doodab
10th January 2012, 08:31
Most of the quotes from "industry leaders" says there is a shortage of quality candidates for most roles. That is at odds with the contract market. We should be thriving in those industries where skills are in short supply, but experience tells me this is not the case.

Industry leaders definition of "quality candidates" doesn't stretch to people who expect to paid more than peanuts.

TimberWolf
10th January 2012, 08:32
Computer science graduates have always known flip all, IT was never something that could be learnt in a few years.

d000hg
10th January 2012, 08:35
When and where did you study?? i think its a recent problem that "the basics" have been dropped from courses because they are too challenging.AS I said that wasn't the case where I was. And looking at their current modules they do stuff like Data Structures and Hardware basics in year 1 as well as some mathematics. They still teach C and Java as well as "web programming" and GPU coding, and they have modules on things like embedded systems.

Maybe your friends should have chosen decent universities.

BrilloPad
10th January 2012, 08:43
Well well...



Britain's computer science courses failing to give workers digital skills | Education | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jan/09/computer-science-courses-digital-skills)

Graduate statistics (http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2206&Itemid=278)

Do something useful instead like "Meeja studies".

Bigger issue is that all coding is going offshore. For some reason the government hates IT and especially contractors. I remember someone on here posting that we are just glorified typists?

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 08:58
Industry leaders definition of "quality candidates" doesn't stretch to people who expect to paid more than peanuts.

WHS - Business leaders hate having to pay more than rock bottom for skilled staff

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 09:01
AS I said that wasn't the case where I was. And looking at their current modules they do stuff like Data Structures and Hardware basics in year 1 as well as some mathematics. They still teach C and Java as well as "web programming" and GPU coding, and they have modules on things like embedded systems.

Maybe your friends should have chosen decent universities.

I think the other aspect of it is that universitys are for academic learning, not for preparing someone for the real world.
Any decent student should be reading round the subject and learning the nuts and bolts in their spare time. Picking up a language from a couple of tecxt books isn't difficult and it's something they'll need to do again and again in their professional life.

MarillionFan
10th January 2012, 09:10
I did more Computer Science in my Physics degree than these guys today are doing in compSci courses... we studdied semiconductors, super conductors, i did machine vision, and digital electronics and learnt at a fundamental level how a computer is working, and from day one we were expected to be fluent in the C programming languge to code up experiments and simulate complex mathematical stuff... Good luck to the current bunch of CompSci undergrads who only get to do HTML and look at Java code, and dont learn anything about Logic gates or low level workings of a CPU... its not computer science, its a glorified 'Basic IT' course - the course reading material is probably the ".. for dummies" range of books...

Low level. Yawn. We're talking practical skills you know.

Notascooby
10th January 2012, 09:11
When I worked at Logicak and they decided that they could offshore all the development roles to Logicak-India I asked where the next generation of solution architects would come from. PM spreadsheet mgt thought you could take graduates, throw them on a course and then they'd be an architect. Whilst you can read up on "enterprise" architecture, you can't just walk into solution architecture. Same goes for graduate analysts, holding a meeting and taking notes isn't analysis, that's secetarial work, which I've pointed out to a few "analysts" in my time.

Like any job, there's no substitute for experience, class room based projects are all very well but its handling screaming PM's demanding deliverables yesterday, attempting to elicit requirements from stuck-up jobsworths and keeping your mouth shut despite knowing you're right and that everything is going to go tits-up that are the real world skills. No Uni course is going to deliver "IT project realisim 101".

d000hg
10th January 2012, 09:12
I think the other aspect of it is that universitys are for academic learning, not for preparing someone for the real world.
Any decent student should be reading round the subject and learning the nuts and bolts in their spare time. Picking up a language from a couple of tecxt books isn't difficult and it's something they'll need to do again and again in their professional life.Very true. Computer Science is NOT the same as programming or software development. They taught us an "intro to programming" course but you had to self-teach, with some small-group practical sessions to ask questions, etc.

I was rather surprised to see people on a CompSci course who didn't already have at least some programming experience, to be honest. But then I am a massive nerd.

Scrag Meister
10th January 2012, 10:49
I was bought up on Commodore 64's, Oric, Atari, Amiga.

Typing in programmes from Commodore Horizons magazine etc.

Spent ages coding when I was 14-18, Assembly on my 64, Basic on 64, Cobol on Apples IIe.

Was a hobby way before it was a career, been lucky to integrate both (well sometimes :D )

northernladuk
10th January 2012, 10:58
Computer Science degree and Tier 1 visa and you are sorted though.......:eyes

Joeman
10th January 2012, 11:20
Low level. Yawn. We're talking practical skills you know.

And thats the problem.. Computers are now like cars, most people dont have a clue how they work, but they are happy to drive them on a daily basis..

doodab
10th January 2012, 11:34
And thats the problem.. Computers are now like cars, most people dont have a clue how they work, but they are happy to drive them on a daily basis..

You would hope that the bloke fixing the brakes has some clue how they work though.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 12:22
You would hope that the bloke fixing the brakes has some clue how they work though.

but he doesnt really need to. Modern cars are designed to come apart with the minimum amount of tools in the minimum amount of time so that the dealers can employ monkeys to service them. The guy at the dealer replacing your brakes likely has no clue how the braking system works, and thats where we are with computers too... how many times have you called up Desktop supports, and some kid has just swapped out your machines for a new one. no attempt to fix the problem, just swap the box for a fresh one...

Incognito
10th January 2012, 12:35
When and where did you study?? i think its a recent problem that "the basics" have been dropped from courses because they are too challenging.. an no, its not based on one student, its based on a few that ive spoken to who just dont have a clue whats going on inside a PC. not that i care much though, as the fewer people who know the secrets, the better my day rate will be in a few years when the current set of undergrads are all fumbling about trying to do everything in HTML...

Why don't you just google and see what the current undergrad courses are offering.

School of Engineering and Computing Sciences (ECS) : - Durham University (http://www.dur.ac.uk/ecs/ecs_prospective_students/undergraduate/degrees/computer_science/csdegrees/cslev1mods/)

School of Engineering and Computing Sciences (ECS) : Level 2 modules - Durham University (http://www.dur.ac.uk/ecs/ecs_prospective_students/undergraduate/degrees/computer_science/csdegrees/cslev2mods/)

School of Engineering and Computing Sciences (ECS) : Level 3 modules - Durham University (http://www.dur.ac.uk/ecs/ecs_prospective_students/undergraduate/degrees/computer_science/csdegrees/lev3mods/)

Or did thy not teach you the basics of research and analysis on your course?

Durham seems to have the basics, bit of Java, C, web etc. Anything that doesn't measure upto your standards?

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 12:45
Durham seems to have the basics, bit of Java, C, web etc.

Utterly pointless, how are they supposed to find employment with that shit, I've never used any of those three in my 12 years of industry experience.

(For the hard of thinking, I'm being sarcastic but still making a valid point)

Mich the Tester
10th January 2012, 12:58
When I worked at Logicak and they decided that they could offshore all the development roles to Logicak-India I asked where the next generation of solution architects would come from. PM spreadsheet mgt thought you could take graduates, throw them on a course and then they'd be an architect. Whilst you can read up on "enterprise" architecture, you can't just walk into solution architecture. Same goes for graduate analysts, holding a meeting and taking notes isn't analysis, that's secetarial work, which I've pointed out to a few "analysts" in my time.

Like any job, there's no substitute for experience, class room based projects are all very well but its handling screaming PM's demanding deliverables yesterday, attempting to elicit requirements from stuck-up jobsworths and keeping your mouth shut despite knowing you're right and that everything is going to go tits-up that are the real world skills. No Uni course is going to deliver "IT project realisim 101".

You missed out 'communication with Bobs' in your list.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
10th January 2012, 13:00
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but how many of these grads are coming from tulipe universities such as sunderland metropolitan or exeter college for higher education (I made them up but you get the idea). The guys graduating from Oxbridge, Imperial, Manchester, UCL, Birmingham (and all the other red brick unis) won't be having a problem getting a job.

doodab
10th January 2012, 13:06
There is a difference between computer science and IT for business, in the same way there is a difference between physics and engineering.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
10th January 2012, 13:08
There is a difference between computer science and IT for business, in the same way there is a difference between physics and engineering.

Yes but Computer Science in the good unis will stretch your mind and challenge you enough to make you employable at entry level i.e. you will have the mental capacity to quickly pick up and apply new skills and technology.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 13:08
Or did thy not teach you the basics of research and analysis on your course?

Durham seems to have the basics, bit of Java, C, web etc. Anything that doesn't measure upto your standards?

LOL, they obviously taught me something useful as I was able to leave uni with a degree in Physics, and walk straight into a very well paid technical role – something it would seem CompSci grads don’t seem to manage…

Oh, and if CompSci grads all share your belief that insulting people you’ve never met with sarcastic comments on a public forum is a desirable character trait and a successful way to win a debate, then maybe that explains the real reason CompSci grads cant get jobs…. :laugh:laugh

doodab
10th January 2012, 13:48
Yes but Computer Science in the good unis will stretch your mind and challenge you enough to make you employable at entry level i.e. you will have the mental capacity to quickly pick up and apply new skills and technology.

You could say that about any numerate degree these days. I would expect anyone who has a good physics or maths degree to be able to pick up programming in a modern language without too much hassle.

The trouble is that from an academic perspective computing crosses a lot of boundaries, at a lot of older universities computer science will have started out as something the mathematics department did and would probably have a very theoretical slant to it, whereas day to day in industry and business it has more in common with engineering. I think for in depth knowledge of skills more immediately applicable to the workplace one might want to look at a "software engineering" or "computing" degree.

I'd agree that comp sci grads ought to have some knowledge of the low level workings of a modern computer, I would have though that stuff like the hardware/software interface, OS design and compiler design would be at least elective courses, but I don't really think that web coding skills that will be out of date in a few years ought to be an end in themselves.

BlasterBates
10th January 2012, 13:54
I think students should be able to work. I did a degree in Electrical Engineering and I found I could work quite easily in my field without too much difficulty. Like anyone else I could sit design and electronic circuits or electrical equipment without any problem. I once spent a month as part of my training in a mechanical engineering department and I couldn't do the work at all simply because my "mechanical engineering" module in the first year was inadequate preparation. So if graduates are coming out and can't do the job they need to look at what they're teaching them. Engineering degrees should be accredited by professional engineers, because in the end only a small fraction go into academia, the vast majority go and work as engineers.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 14:06
The trouble is that from an academic perspective computing crosses a lot of boundaries, at a lot of older universities computer science will have started out as something the mathematics department did and would probably have a very theoretical slant to it

yes, thats thats why its call "Computer Science"

They should have no right to class what they teach these days
(Durham seems to have the basics, bit of Java, C, web etc) as a "science", its what many of us on this forum do for a living or even in my case as a hobby.. change the name to "Computer Skills" becasue thats all it is...

doodab
10th January 2012, 14:17
yes, thats thats why its call "Computer Science"

They should have no right to class what they teach these days as a "science", its what many of us on this forum do for a living or even in my case as a hobby.. change the name to "Computer Skills" becasue thats all it is...

Yes, that's why i mentioned software engineering and computing degrees. Computer science to me is more about training future researchers who will go on to build AI machines and prove P!=NP. You ought to be able to pick up waht you need to function in a commercial IT environment once you start work but that isn't what you are there to learn.

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 14:21
Not suprised - they dont actually teach them anything useful anymore..
Got an intern working here at ClientCo who's a 2nd year CompSci undergrad on a work placement. When we started asking him what they actually tought in Uni these days we were amazed!
they guy had never even heard of "Assembler", and the only programming language he had seen (not coded in) is Java... He's a nice guy, but the stuff they are teaching undergrads these days isnt worth Sh1t...

You complain when they don't teach them any languages


yes, thats thats why its call "Computer Science"

They should have no right to class what they teach these days

(Durham seems to have the basics, bit of Java, C, web etc)

as a "science", its what many of us on this forum do for a living or even in my case as a hobby.. change the name to "Computer Skills" becasue thats all it is...

Then you complain again when they do
:winker:

d000hg
10th January 2012, 14:47
yes, thats thats why its call "Computer Science"

They should have no right to class what they teach these days as a "science", its what many of us on this forum do for a living or even in my case as a hobby.. change the name to "Computer Skills" becasue thats all it is...No, you're still wrong. Only a minority of what they teach is hands-on programming. The rest is theory... algorithms, data structures, logic, how to engineer a software project, etc.

Is Joe some kind of sleeper-sockie? Been around for years with no posting and suddenly springs to life?

BrilloPad
10th January 2012, 14:49
I think students should be able to work.

Even drama students?

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 15:04
Even drama students?

Especially drama students, they can at least pretend to be enjoying it (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-16157522)

darmstadt
10th January 2012, 15:05
Or as one man once said:


"People who are more than casually interested
in computers should have at least some idea of
what the underlying hardware is like. Otherwise
the programs they write will be pretty weird."


Donald E Knuth,
The Art of Computer Programming,
Preface to Fascicle Number One (MMIX)

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 15:16
Not suprised - they dont actually teach them anything useful anymore..
Got an intern working here at ClientCo who's a 2nd year CompSci undergrad on a work placement. When we started asking him what they actually tought in Uni these days we were amazed!
they guy had never even heard of "Assembler", and the only programming language he had seen (not coded in) is Java... He's a nice guy, but the stuff they are teaching undergrads these days isnt worth Sh1t...

Looking at the Dundee Computer Science syllabus it seems that the more low level stuff isn't taught till the 3rd year:
BSc Computing Science :: School of Computing at University of Dundee (http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/study/undergrad/degreedetails.asp?d=19&c=5)

northernladuk
10th January 2012, 15:19
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but how many of these grads are coming from tulipe universities such as sunderland metropolitan or exeter college for higher education (I made them up but you get the idea). The guys graduating from Oxbridge, Imperial, Manchester, UCL, Birmingham (and all the other red brick unis) won't be having a problem getting a job.

Do employers give a shit about which university it came from? I don't even put it on my CV. Just my qualification? Saying that I did mine late so had experience on the CV. Genuine question.

NorthWestPerm2Contr
10th January 2012, 15:25
Do employers give a tulip about which university it came from? I don't even put it on my CV. Just my qualification? Saying that I did mine late so had experience on the CV. Genuine question.

Who said it had anything to do with employers? I didn't for one. My point is more to do with the quality of the candidates in the good unis as opposed to the employers taking note of the uni - having said that many employers do actually take into account the quality of the uni.

Doggy Styles
10th January 2012, 15:32
Looking at the Dundee Computer Science syllabus it seems that the more low level stuff isn't taught till the 3rd year:
BSc Computing Science :: School of Computing at University of Dundee (http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/study/undergrad/degreedetails.asp?d=19&c=5)Should be taught together. I learned how to program before I learned how to program a computer.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 15:33
You complain when they don't teach them any languages
Then you complain again when they do
:winker:

oh do try to keep up... how does 'a bit of is Java, and HTML' qualify anyone to call the subject a "Science"?? that was my point..

Joeman
10th January 2012, 15:36
Is Joe some kind of sleeper-sockie? Been around for years with no posting and suddenly springs to life?

no i got fed up with this place because of all the arrogant CompSci grads - nothings changed much i see...

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 15:38
no i got fed up with this place because of all the arrogant CompSci grads - nothings changed much i see...

Well I'm a Physics grad and I still think you're a knob

Arturo Bassick
10th January 2012, 15:40
no i got fed up with this place because of all the arrogant CompSci grads - nothings changed much i see...The only hint of arrogance I am detecting seems to be emanating from your side of the thread.

d000hg
10th January 2012, 15:40
Well I'm a Physics grad and I still think you're a knobWHS.

d000hg
10th January 2012, 15:44
Or as one man once said:


Looking at the Dundee Computer Science syllabus it seems that the more low level stuff isn't taught till the 3rd year:
BSc Computing Science :: School of Computing at University of Dundee (http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/study/undergrad/degreedetails.asp?d=19&c=5)Whether we like it or not, the low level stuff certainly isn't AS important as it once was. In the past, you simply couldn't BE a programmer without knowing ASM.

As we move to higher-level languages it's increasing hard to know how it translates to the hardware... for instance if you do functional programming in Haskell, it's kind of the point that you're describing WHAT should happen, not HOW.

Arturo Bassick
10th January 2012, 15:49
Whether we like it or not, the low level stuff certainly isn't AS important as it once was. In the past, you simply couldn't BE a programmer without knowing ASM.

As we move to higher-level languages it's increasing hard to know how it translates to the hardware... for instance if you do functional programming in Haskell, it's kind of the point that you're describing WHAT should happen, not HOW.Some of us still work at a low level where assembler and machine code are important.
Even if it is only theoretical I think it helps to know how we get from high level through compiler or interpreter to assembler and binary.

Mich the Tester
10th January 2012, 15:57
Aside from all this academic debate, will new graduates from the UK be able to compete for jobbings with people who've gained an MSc from the Ramananadingdong University of Bangalore?

Joeman
10th January 2012, 17:06
Well I'm a Physics grad and I still think you're a knob

WHS.


And you really think i care for the opinion of two random blokes on the internet who seem incapable of holding a debate without resorting to profanity and personal abuse?? grow up will you, you're embarrassing yourselves :laugh

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 17:24
And you really think i care for the opinion of two random blokes on the internet who seem incapable of holding a debate without resorting to profanity and personal abuse?? grow up will you, you're embarrassing yourselves :laugh

you started it when you called me a compsci graduate

d000hg
10th January 2012, 17:34
And you really think i care for the opinion of two random blokes on the internet who seem incapable of holding a debate without resorting to profanity and personal abuse?? grow up will you, you're embarrassing yourselves :laughYou seem to care.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 17:37
you started it when you called me a compsci graduate

Now you're sounding like a spoilt kid.. can you show me where i called you a compsci grad? I think you're now making things up to save yourself...

d000hg
10th January 2012, 17:39
Some of us still work at a low level where assembler and machine code are important. So what? Those people can learn this stuff, but it's silly to teach everyone that when most won't use it, and would be better learning about multithreading and parralel programming.

Even if it is only theoretical I think it helps to know how we get from high level through compiler or interpreter to assembler and binary.I think it's useful... I just think other things are as or more helpful, and have greater practicality.

After all I've worked in some areas where you're squeezing cycles (3D rendering for example) and even there we're no longer at the stage of trying to figure out what the cache will be doing, or whether to use a XOR instead of an ADD (or whatever). So it now comes under "slightly useful historical underpinnings" rather than "fundamentals of CS" in my book, apart from specialists who will do specialist courses if they want to.

northernladuk
10th January 2012, 17:57
Now you're sounding like a spoilt kid.. can you show me where i called you a compsci grad? I think you're now making things up to save yourself...

It appears the sockies are getting better. Taking on the big boys in general and still only 'Mostly Harmless' after 95 posts. That's not bad going....

northernladyuk
10th January 2012, 18:10
It appears the sockies are getting better. Taking on the big boys in general and still only 'Mostly Harmless' after 95 posts. That's not bad going....

I wish you'd get off the computer and take me on, big boy. You just need to get your confidence back.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 18:23
WHS.


It appears the sockies are getting better. Taking on the big boys in general and still only 'Mostly Harmless' after 95 posts. That's not bad going....

"Big Boys"?? - more like stupid little kids who cant read forum posts or hold a sensible debate without resorting to profanity...
you think im a sokie?? LOL
:rollin:

Joeman
10th January 2012, 18:23
I wish you'd get off the computer and take me on, big boy. You just need to get your confidence back.

you talking to yourself now??

eek
10th January 2012, 18:36
you talking to yourself now??

Read more carefully next time round.

Hint one of then is a "lady".



It appears the sockies are getting better. Taking on the big boys in general and still only 'Mostly Harmless' after 95 posts. That's not bad going....


I wish you'd get off the computer and take me on, big boy. You just need to get your confidence back.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 18:38
I wish you'd get off the computer and take me on, big boy. You just need to get your confidence back.


Read more carefully next time round.

Hint one of then is a "lady".

LOL, yeah saw that after posting, was going to delete, but wanted to see what snide comments it would generate ;)

d000hg
10th January 2012, 18:47
So Joe, what's your degree?

Joeman
10th January 2012, 19:01
So Joe, what's your degree?

You've really not been keeping up have you... :eyes
So you insult me, argue with me, make stuff up, act like a gilry, but its quite evident you havent actually been reading anything ive been saying!!

Go back to PAGE1 and start again, and try reading this time and all will become apparent...

Pogle
10th January 2012, 19:37
I have an electronics degree and I learnt assembler, C and an lots of stuff about digital electronics as well as analog.
The thing is I left university with potentional and a bit of knowledge. I got a graduate trainee job with a large IT company and that is where I learnt to code properly.
Employers dont bother to look for applicants who could learn to do what they want. They don't want the hassle of actually training people, having apprentices and spending time and money developing people.
That is the problem.

TimberWolf
10th January 2012, 19:45
I have an electronics degree and I learnt assembler, C and an lots of stuff about digital electronics as well as analog.
The thing is I left university with potentional and a bit of knowledge. I got a graduate trainee job with a large IT company and that is where I learnt to code properly.
Employers dont bother to look for applicants who could learn to do what they want. They don't want the hassle of actually training people, having apprentices and spending time and money developing people.
That is the problem.

Why bother when you can just import someone cheap?

Spacecadet
10th January 2012, 20:47
So Joe, what's your degree?

I'll save you the drudge: it was Physics... feck knows which uni though

eek
10th January 2012, 20:48
You've really not been keeping up have you... :eyes
So you insult me, argue with me, make stuff up, act like a gilry, but its quite evident you havent actually been reading anything ive been saying!!

Go back to PAGE1 and start again, and try reading this time and all will become apparent...

It looks like you actually did some work for your degree, you fool.

I looked carefully at all the options and picked a course max 10 hours a week in a topic where to be honest people make it up as they go along.

Of course you needed to know a little bit about economics before picking your degree but once the decision was made boy was it an easy option.

d000hg
10th January 2012, 21:07
So you insult me, argue with me, make stuff up, act like a gilry,What did I make up? And speaking of making things up, what's a gilry?

d000hg
10th January 2012, 21:08
It looks like you actually did some work for your degree, you fool.Based on his posting here he went to a poly, so that might not be true.

eek
10th January 2012, 21:12
Based on his posting here he went to a poly, so that might not be true.

Did any poly's offer Physics as an option? I never looked at PCAS options so I can't comment.

d000hg
10th January 2012, 21:15
They probably call it Earth Studies.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 21:33
What did I make up? And speaking of making things up, what's a gilry?

This thread really has turned into a "have a go at joeman" thread hasn't it.. now you're turning to the age old tradition of picking on peoples typos.. :ohwell

I cant actually be arsed with this thread anymore.. look back at the abuse you guys have given me all because i expressed a simple opinion that CompSci undergrads arent tought the fundamental basics of how a computer works.

If you're happy knowing only high level stuff, then go ahead, knock yourself out, but personally for me, if i spend all day operating a machine, i like to ensure i know as much as possible about how its working... you may not share that opinion, but does that really justify the names and abuse you've been hurling my way??

Joeman
10th January 2012, 21:35
Based on his posting here he went to a poly, so that might not be true.

that would be the postings youve not bothered to even read before calling me a "knob" right??
:eyes

eek
10th January 2012, 21:41
you may not share that opinion, but does that really justify the names and abuse you've been hurling my way??

This is general. Picking on people is part of the game. If you don't want to be picked on use the other forums. If however you are willing to give as good as you get (and remember that its not personal) join in.

* Oops if your name is Wilmslow or Suity chances are the attack is personal. But then again there are always exceptions.

AtW
10th January 2012, 21:45
Good thing my degrees are in business, finance and credit (banks) and also real estate :smokin

Joeman
10th January 2012, 21:54
Good thing my degrees are in business, finance and credit (banks) and also real estate :smokin

agreed!! much more use than a CompSci degree in the real world :)

d000hg
10th January 2012, 22:25
...You must be reading a different thread, this one is pretty tame by normal standards. You are confusing people disagreeing with you, with people ganging up on you.

I'll even take back calling you a knob, in favour of saying that I think you were being one in those particular posts... i.e. I think your opinion is badly formed. i.e. you aren't stupid, but you were saying stupid things.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 22:31
You must be reading a different thread, this one is pretty tame by normal standards. You are confusing people disagreeing with you, with people ganging up on you.

I'll even take back calling you a knob, in favour of saying that I think you were being one in those particular posts... i.e. I think your opinion is badly formed. i.e. you aren't stupid, but you were saying stupid things.

Wow, a withdrawn Knob!! i must be special...
so now youve taken the time to read the posts, how exactly was what i was saying stupid?? do explain...

Old Greg
10th January 2012, 22:33
Wow, a withdrawn Knob!! i must be special...
so now youve taken the time to read the posts, how exactly was what i was saying stupid?? do explain...

What are you getting out of this?

eek
10th January 2012, 22:38
What are you getting out of this?

Stress relief. To be honest :winker:ing would be a better plan.

Joeman
10th January 2012, 22:40
What are you getting out of this?

Nothing.. you??

Incognito
11th January 2012, 01:20
I cant actually be arsed with this thread anymore.. look back at the abuse you guys have given me all because i expressed a simple opinion that CompSci undergrads arent tought the fundamental basics of how a computer works.


I'm sure they can work out how to get a bloody spell checker to work though. I'm getting a headache just trying to read your rants.

Joeman
11th January 2012, 05:38
I'm sure they can work out how to get a bloody spell checker to work though. I'm getting a headache just trying to read your rants.

Oh look the Typo Police have arrived...:yay: Whats wrong? - poor little CompSci grad couldn't get a real job so you decided to join the typo police??
I bet business is booming if you're posting at 01:20am, and bet you're commanding a great day rate trawling the web spell checking other peoples posts... Now crawl back into your hole and come back when you have something useful to contribute to the thread... Until then, if all you have to offer is the age old comeback of "you made a typo", you're wasting your time... run along now old chap... :eyes:eyes

Old Greg
11th January 2012, 08:25
Nothing.. you??

I find a bit of gentle banter is a pleasant way to pass the time while I'm on the train.

Maybe you should lighten up a bit and you might find it a bit more enjoyable.

DodgyAgent
11th January 2012, 08:33
You could say that about any numerate degree these days. I would expect anyone who has a good physics or maths degree to be able to pick up programming in a modern language without too much hassle.

The trouble is that from an academic perspective computing crosses a lot of boundaries, at a lot of older universities computer science will have started out as something the mathematics department did and would probably have a very theoretical slant to it, whereas day to day in industry and business it has more in common with engineering. I think for in depth knowledge of skills more immediately applicable to the workplace one might want to look at a "software engineering" or "computing" degree.

I'd agree that comp sci grads ought to have some knowledge of the low level workings of a modern computer, I would have though that stuff like the hardware/software interface, OS design and compiler design would be at least elective courses, but I don't really think that web coding skills that will be out of date in a few years ought to be an end in themselves.

Computer science degrees have little recognition in the commercial world. I do not see why anyone with strong maths or physics would do anything other than an engineering degree. Computer science is a "soft" degree unless you are going to go into computing and be a bit of a geek. Electrical/mechanical/civil Engineering degrees are extremely difficult and this is recognised by employers. Many senior executives in FTSE 100 companies are Engineering graduates, I doubt you will find anyone with a computer science degree working outside of IT.

doodab
11th January 2012, 10:02
Employers dont bother to look for applicants who could learn to do what they want. They don't want the hassle of actually training people, having apprentices and spending time and money developing people.
That is the problem.

WPS.

I was lucky that my first contract was 4 years spent working for an old school IT guy who was happy to give me stuff I didn't already know about and let me figure it out.

doodab
11th January 2012, 10:12
If you're happy knowing only high level stuff, then go ahead, knock yourself out, but personally for me, if i spend all day operating a machine, i like to ensure i know as much as possible about how its working... you may not share that opinion, but does that really justify the names and abuse you've been hurling my way??

I am inclined to agree with you. I think it's useful to have at least some knowledge of the algorithms and data structures that calling sort() on your generic collections is likely to employ as well.

Joeman
11th January 2012, 10:28
I am inclined to agree with you. I think it's useful to have at least some knowledge of the algorithms and data structures that calling sort() on your generic collections is likely to employ as well.

Thankyou - finally someone knows what im talking about!!
However it seems that puts us firmly in the minority, as most on this forum seem content with only knowing high level stuff, and they wonder why their jobs are getting outsourced :ohwell

d000hg
11th January 2012, 14:24
Oh look the Typo Police have arrived...:yay: Whats wrong? - poor little CompSci grad couldn't get a real job so you decided to join the typo police??
I bet business is booming if you're posting at 01:20am, and bet you're commanding a great day rate trawling the web spell checking other peoples posts... Now crawl back into your hole and come back when you have something useful to contribute to the thread... Until then, if all you have to offer is the age old comeback of "you made a typo", you're wasting your time... run along now old chap... :eyes:eyes

Somewhere in one of those threads you begged us to read, you made a big deal about people making personal insults against you. So much so you keep referring back to it. Didn't take long to show you up.


Thankyou - finally someone knows what im talking about!!
However it seems that puts us firmly in the minority, as most on this forum seem content with only knowing high level stuff, and they wonder why their jobs are getting outsourced :ohwellWhy don't you give a concrete example where writing a WDSL web service benefits from knowing how a transistor works, if you want to turn this thread back to a serious bent?

Regent
11th January 2012, 14:24
that would be the postings youve not bothered to even read before calling me a "knob" right??
:eyes

Given some consideration, I believe the best thing for you to do is to ignore the troll and stop feeding it.

HTH.

doodab
11th January 2012, 14:29
I think part of it is that the current generation doesn't have access to the same sort of machines we had. The early home computers inspired and required you learn about the hardware and basic data structures and algorithms in a certain level of detail which meant that a lot of people of my generation simply picked this stuff up from various sources as kids. There was no real need to teach it to us in school. These days kids are more likely to be coding up "apps" for their phone or facebook or whatever and while that isn't necessarily a bad thing they are going to be doing it using libraries and high level languages that isolate them from a lot of the nitty gritty of what makes a computer tick.

TBH I think the raspberry pi, although it's aims are laudable, is a little bit too sophisticated and might be a bit of a missed opportunity to get some of that low level stuff back on the menu. I wonder if someone might develop a simpler non-multi-tasking non-virtual-memory operating system / basic (or java or python or whatever) interpreter for it to boot in place of linux.

d000hg
11th January 2012, 14:29
I am inclined to agree with you. I think it's useful to have at least some knowledge of the algorithms and data structures that calling sort() on your generic collections is likely to employ as well.It's a good job any half-decent CompSci course teaches this then.

On the other hand, when you learn programming in a non CS field such as maths or physics, they don't teach any of the theoretical underpinnings. So code written by such people - unless they took the time to self-teach themselves this stuff - is typically very bad. 2D loops, not using standard collections/algorithm language features, etc.

doodab
11th January 2012, 14:48
It's a good job any half-decent CompSci course teaches this then.

On the other hand, when you learn programming in a non CS field such as maths or physics, they don't teach any of the theoretical underpinnings. So code written by such people - unless they took the time to self-teach themselves this stuff - is typically very bad. 2D loops, not using standard collections/algorithm language features, etc.

Exactly, that's kind of the point. Computers are now ubiquitous and it's ridiculous to simply hope that everyone who programs them will have the benefit of a degree level computer science education. We need to get basic concepts and principles like computability, algorithmic complexity, basic data structures and the parts of a computer and the sorts of primitive operations it can perform into people's heads when they are young, as we (try to) do with other "everyday" things like maths and grammar.

NotAllThere
11th January 2012, 15:30
It used to be that the value of a degree was that it should a certain level of critical and analytical thinking. Not, as some employers want it, technical training.

I have a computer science and maths degree. For the CS part, in the first year, everyone had to do programming - using Modula 2, including algorithms, P, NP etc; and chip architecture, which included some assembler programming. Of all that I learned during my three years at university, I think there were only two things I learned that were useful in my later career.

1. Recursion
2. That it's impossible to write guaranteed error free code.