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DodgyAgent
11th January 2012, 10:59
To be announced today. England could probably put out 5 good teams all of the same quality but almost completely lacking any real world class players. As for Owen Farrell he has few line breaking qualities and has an extremely short fuse -although he may be as skilful as Johnny Wilkinson, it was Wilkinson's temperament and bravery that made him the player he was. Back row forwards a plenty but this six nations will show if good club players are likely to step up to being outstanding Internationals. Where is England's no7 going to come from ?

I can see a defeat looming at Murrayfield :ohwell

Mich the Tester
11th January 2012, 11:08
To be announced today. England could probably put out 5 good teams all of the same quality but almost completely lacking any real world class players. As for Owen Farrell he has few line breaking qualities and has an extremely short fuse -although he may be as skilful as Johnny Wilkinson, it was Wilkinson's temperament and bravery that made him the player he was. Back row forwards a plenty but this six nations will show if good club players are likely to step up to being outstanding Internationals. Where is England's no7 going to come from ?

I can see a defeat looming at Murrayfield :ohwell

Time to rebuild and give new players and coaches a chance; important thing this time is to see improvement game by game and not the inconsistency of the last 8 years. If you improve a little bit each week and month then it doesn't really matter where you start, so parity against Scotland would be a good starting point.

Now I'm not suggesting you should be learning the game while playing for England and I too think there's not enough experience to be really competitive, but that's the result of the last 8 years and Mr Lancaster's got to make the best of a bad job; best of luck to him.

I'll be going to the Italy game, which is another potential banana skin.

shaunbhoy
11th January 2012, 11:21
I can see a defeat looming at Murrayfield :ohwell

We can but hope.

:tongue

doomage
11th January 2012, 11:37
Slim pickings for Lancaster at the moment, lot of guys out with injury. More rebuilding eh?

One thing I noticed from the RWC is too many of the backs are too big. I think Austin Healy mentioned this a few years back. Size is great when you can be organised enough to hit the line at pace but with close / rush defences line breaks are made by getting to max velocity over the shortest distance. Hence the most line breaks for the england backline came from Toby Flood (or so it looked).

Also, no need for loyalty to the players anymore, 2003 a long time ago now. So pick on form & hunger. Question is, are they up for it.

Mich the Tester
11th January 2012, 11:40
To be announced today. England could probably put out 5 good teams all of the same quality but almost completely lacking any real world class players. As for Owen Farrell he has few line breaking qualities and has an extremely short fuse -although he may be as skilful as Johnny Wilkinson, it was Wilkinson's temperament and bravery that made him the player he was. Back row forwards a plenty but this six nations will show if good club players are likely to step up to being outstanding Internationals. Where is England's no7 going to come from ?I can see a defeat looming at Murrayfield :ohwell

Dunno for now, maybe Croft, but worth having a look around the clubs below the premiership for some future open sides; you'll find that many, many clubs have good young open side flankers in the Neil Back mould who'll bust a gut to play for England some day but don't have a professional contract; I can think of at least three that play for the invitation side whose Vets I play for in the summer; all of them playing national 2 or regional first divisions, desperately fighting to get a contract but un-be-fooking-lievably fit, aggressive and talented open sides. Neil Back was spotted as a future world class flanker while still at Barkers Butts in midlands 1; that's the sort of place where you'll find the great open sides of the future because the competition for a premiership or championship contract drives those guys to train like their lives depend on it.

Let's be honest, open side flanker boils down to being the fittest most aggressive (controlled) bastard on the pitch; the rest can be learned. You need someone with the starting speed of a sprinter, the upper body of a gymnast and the lungs of a middle distance runner; if he's got half a brain you can make a class flanker of him (ps the brain is probably the bit that's most difficult to find and if he has more than half a brain he'll probably play blind side, says MTT in the completely objective and unbiased fashion of an ageing blind side).

Mich the Tester
11th January 2012, 11:43
Slim pickings for Lancaster at the moment, lot of guys out with injury. More rebuilding eh?

One thing I noticed from the RWC is too many of the backs are too big. I think Austin Healy mentioned this a few years back. Size is great when you can be organised enough to hit the line at pace but with close / rush defences line breaks are made by getting to max velocity over the shortest distance. Hence the most line breaks for the england backline came from Toby Flood (or so it looked).

Also, no need for loyalty to the players anymore, 2003 a long time ago now. So pick on form & hunger. Question is, are they up for it.

Good points; Tuilagi made good breaks, more because he's quick off the mark than because of his strength. Many backs should spend a bit less time in the gym and a bit more time on the running track.

DodgyAgent
11th January 2012, 11:49
Dunno for now, maybe Croft, but worth having a look around the clubs below the premiership for some future open sides; you'll find that many, many clubs have good young open side flankers in the Neil Back mould who'll bust a gut to play for England some day but don't have a professional contract; I can think of at least three that play for the invitation side whose Vets I play for in the summer; all of them playing national 2 or regional first divisions, desperately fighting to get a contract but un-be-fooking-lievably fit, aggressive and talented open sides. Neil Back was spotted as a future world class flanker while still at Barkers Butts in midlands 1; that's the sort of place where you'll find the great open sides of the future because the competition for a premiership or championship contract drives those guys to train like their lives depend on it.

Let's be honest, open side flanker boils down to being the fittest most aggressive (controlled) bastard on the pitch; the rest can be learned. You need someone with the starting speed of a sprinter, the upper body of a gymnast and the lungs of a middle distance runner; if he's got half a brain you can make a class flanker of him (ps the brain is probably the bit that's most difficult to find and if he has more than half a brain he'll probably play blind side, says MTT in the completely objective and unbiased fashion of an ageing blind side).

I played against Barkers Butts - the dirtiest game ever.

Mich the Tester
11th January 2012, 12:03
I played against Barkers Butts - the dirtiest game ever.

Who were you playing for? Not Nuneaton by any chance?

Nuneaton were the dirtiest chav scum bastard asshole peasant bunch of ASBOs I ever played against.

no hard feelings though :wink






(but then I played for Barkers Butts for 2 years, so I'm entirely objective about this)

Ignis Fatuus
11th January 2012, 12:21
I can see a defeat looming at Murrayfield :ohwellNot sure about that, ISTM that Scotland victories over England, when they do happen, are down to Scotland winning rather than England losing. Which I suppose you'd expect since England are generally the stronger team: sometimes Scotland just put a bit extra in and that's when they win.

Like my favourite event, the first six nations in 2000: by the time the Calcutta Cup came around, England had beaten everybody else, and Scotland had lost to everybody else including Italy. Then they had just f***in' had enough and weren't about to lose to the old enemy as well, no matter what it took. So they won, somewhat against the odds. But not this time I suspect.

BrilloPad
11th January 2012, 12:51
Not sure about that, ISTM that Scotland victories over England, when they do happen, are down to Scotland winning rather than England losing. Which I suppose you'd expect since England are generally the stronger team: sometimes Scotland just put a bit extra in and that's when they win.

Like my favourite event, the first six nations in 2000: by the time the Calcutta Cup came around, England had beaten everybody else, and Scotland had lost to everybody else including Italy. Then they had just f***in' had enough and weren't about to lose to the old enemy as well, no matter what it took. So they won, somewhat against the odds. But not this time I suspect.

Maybe if we grant the Scots independence they will let us win? Though personallyI can't wait to be rid of them. Then they might just stop whining.

Mich the Tester
11th January 2012, 13:01
Maybe if we grant the Scots independence they will let us win? Though personallyI can't wait to be rid of them. Then they might just stop whining.

The Daily Mash - Independent Scotland could be exactly the same, warn experts (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/independent-scotland-could-be-exactly-the-same%2c-warn-experts-201201114752/)

doomage
11th January 2012, 16:49
"Mike Tindall, Mark Cueto, Nick Easter, Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey all failed to make the cut."

BBC Sport - Six Nations: Owen Farrell in new-look England squad (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16491793.stm)

Mich the Tester
11th January 2012, 16:50
"Mike Tindall, Mark Cueto, Nick Easter, Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey all failed to make the cut."


Fair enough in all cases, possible exception Cueto.

Alf W
11th January 2012, 23:22
Not sure about that, ISTM that Scotland victories over England, when they do happen, are down to Scotland winning rather than England losing. Which I suppose you'd expect since England are generally the stronger team: sometimes Scotland just put a bit extra in and that's when they win.

Like my favourite event, the first six nations in 2000: by the time the Calcutta Cup came around, England had beaten everybody else, and Scotland had lost to everybody else including Italy. Then they had just f***in' had enough and weren't about to lose to the old enemy as well, no matter what it took. So they won, somewhat against the odds. But not this time I suspect.

When England lose to Scotland it is usually because the game is at Murrayfield and the Scots have watered the pitch for days until it becomes a complete swamp. It really isn't a fit venue to play International games of rugby on.

Ignis Fatuus
12th January 2012, 08:07
When England lose to Scotland it is usually because the game is at Murrayfield and the Scots have watered the pitch for days until it becomes a complete swamp. It really isn't a fit venue to play International games of rugby on.I think you are presuming malicious action where simple meteorology will suffice.

It's an Act of God. God being a Presbyterian of course.

Mich the Tester
12th January 2012, 09:37
When England lose to Scotland it is usually because the game is at Murrayfield and the Scots have watered the pitch for days until it becomes a complete swamp. It really isn't a fit venue to play International games of rugby on.

Irrelevant. You don't win by making excuses. You plan and prepare properly and have a pre-match poo to prevent piss poor performances.