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lukemg
11th May 2006, 13:37
Hi all, looking for some assistance, I am pursuing a Service Delivery direction and although I have the ITIL foundation, I really need the managers cert to get up a level or 2 and tap into the 400/day implementation contracts. I will be coughing for this myself, any suggestions for training courses, locations, companies. By preference a boot camp requiring pre-study to reach a certain level followed by a week or 2 intensive study and exam passing would suit.
Prefer North West England if poss.
All assistance appreciated.

privateeye
11th May 2006, 13:41
I just read a book and went straight in without even sitting the exams - doesn't hinder how much money I earn. I just highlighted more specifically all areas on my CV where I had used these skills.

Francko
11th May 2006, 13:53
I just read a book and went straight in without even sitting the exams - doesn't hinder how much money I earn. I just highlighted more specifically all areas on my CV where I had used these skills.

The manager exam is a rip-off. 2 weeks of mandatory course, no way of doing it by yourself..... 5k cost.... as a contractor I doubt it can be a worthwhile investment. Take a permie job, get this training the first month and then quit. :-)

milanbenes
11th May 2006, 13:56
get into .Net Luke

it's the future

Milan.

Francko
11th May 2006, 13:59
get into .Net Luke

it's the future

Milan.

MSF and MOF

Damn Milan code monkey. :D

malvolio
11th May 2006, 14:01
Managers is worth having, but only if you know the subject pretty well and have some experience of doing it in the real world, by which time its a bit late. Which is why I've never really bothered - if a 13-year long CV full of ITIL implementation doesn't impress them, a certificate probably won't either.

Also, it's getting a bit like Prince2 - every man and his dog is qualified whether or not they can organise anything. ITIL implementation is not about process, it's about people.

privateeye
11th May 2006, 14:06
Managers is worth having, but only if you know the subject pretty well and have some experience of doing it in the real world, by which time its a bit late. Which is why I've never really bothered - if a 13-year long CV full of ITIL implementation doesn't impress them, a certificate probably won't either.

Also, it's getting a bit like Prince2 - every man and his dog is qualified whether or not they can organise anything. ITIL implementation is not about process, it's about people.

I think its about becoming a master in one area, I specialise in Release, Change and Configuration Management. Its often an area that many clients try without the necessary experience and get it badly wrong so plenty of work there. For an example of how often it goes wrong speak to EDS or Pararseol.

Francko
11th May 2006, 14:17
I think its about becoming a master in one area, I specialise in Release, Change and Configuration Management. Its often an area that many clients try without the necessary experience and get it badly wrong so plenty of work there. For an example of how often it goes wrong speak to EDS or Pararseol.

But that's the practitioner exam, which you can also do it without any course. The manager exam is 2 weeks mandatory course. I see the point of the manager exam up to a certain extent. I mean once you have the foundation of the subject then it's up to you to put it in practice. 2 weeks of hard work will not certainly transform you into an experienced manager. I guess it should be used to consolidate what you already have, rather then using it as a start-up step of a higher level role (but then again, what's the point of making the course that hard?).

lukemg
11th May 2006, 14:38
Already in SDM role, doing second company implementation (whisper permie) but need to differentiate myself and add the cert to the experience to open some doors. No chance of company coughing for it. 10 years as a contractor I didn't keep my skills updated and saw them turn to commodity and become virtually worthless, trying to keep up or stay ahead this time.

Clavdivs
11th May 2006, 15:30
I was told by more than one agency that clients don't expect us poor contractors to have the Manager's Certificate 'cos it's so expensive to get. Just make sure your previous assignments involved some sort of ITIL experience, or at least mention it in your CV. Worked for me.

Francko
11th May 2006, 16:29
Just make sure your previous assignments involved some sort of ITIL experience, or at least mention it in your CV. Worked for me.

We should insert a blank line in the CV with the text stating "Please, write the skill you are looking for, along with the amount of experience required". :D

cojak
11th May 2006, 19:20
That last post is exactly why I spent the money (not been out of work since), however I digress. I did reply lukemsg but it got bumped, so here it is again...

But remember,peeps - Malvolio's right, it's about people - you can have spiffing processes but if people won't use them or can't get access to them...

Sorry for the delay - I don't post when I'm on-site.

No, ITIL training isn't a full-time gig - I'm a consultant first and a trainer second. I do the odd freelance course every now and then. It helps to keep IR35 at bay and my ITIL knowledge sharp.

Having never been to a boot camp I don't know how to answer that one - you need to attend 2 separate weeks of training; one week for Service Support and one week for Service Delivery. This is non-negotiable; there is no distance learning allowed for the Manager's certificate (you can add to the cost by going to a day's exam prep but I don't rate them).

Average pass marks for the ITIL training specialists are in the region of 80%, dropping to around 65% for some the smaller bandwagon training providers* with variable quality trainers and less than 50% for self-learners before the exam entrance criteria were tightened up.

As for providers, choose from Sysop (a particular favourite), QA, FoxIT etc. These have training centres around Manchester. Always ask them their pass mark rates, the best are proud of them (and this can be cross-ref'd with the ISEB )

Overall passing the Manager's Certificate will cost approximately 3,000 - 5,000 depending on who you go with (and the biggest aren't always the most expensive). This doesn't include potential loss of earnings.

As for your £350 - £450 a day rate - you'll get those rates once you've proved yourself and with experience. Don't expect that much straight away (although I wouldn't get out of bed for 'em meself... )

*I am not a bandwagon but a sleek specialist in red with go-faster stripes whose own average stats are higher than the big-hitters...

HTH

malvolio
11th May 2006, 20:43
Yeah, like ditto. To summarise:

If you can't break down an enitre end-to-end IT department and work out where it's failing, if you can't then work out what needs doing to make it work and if you can't then get the people to adapt and follow the processes you have developed to sort the problem, then you ain't an ITIL consultant.

Also, there are 10 core functions and a few add-ons, all of which are inter-realted. So how can you be a Practitioner expert if you only know 1/10th of the subject? Being a practitioner in change is fine - but what about config to scope the change, what about Problem to define why the change is needed, what about finance to cost it, what about capacity to tell you what you need to buy/release/upgrade to implement it, what about release to deliver it without shutting down the whole service, what about ervice to ensure what you are doing is what the client want, what about incident to tell the client what you're doing and what they should do until you do it...

See - piece of piss really. Two weeks training, no problem....

cojak
11th May 2006, 21:01
... and of course ITIL is more than just Service Management y'know. ICT Infrastructure Management needs to be considered from Design & Planning through Deployment with Ops and Technical Specialists to involve. Which leads us neatly in project management...

More courses, anyone? :D

Snork.

The Master
11th May 2006, 21:13
Snork Maiden, surely?

http://www.moomin.co.jp/html/m-data/character/subwin/images/character_snorkmaiden_01.gif

Francko
11th May 2006, 21:45
Having never been to a boot camp I don't know how to answer that one - you need to attend 2 separate weeks of training; one week for Service Support and one week for Service Delivery. This is non-negotiable; there is no distance learning allowed for the Manager's certificate (you can add to the cost by going to a day's exam prep but I don't rate them).


I thought you had to choose between Service Support and Service Delivery and each area is covered in two weeks. Is it so or it's one week each?

cojak
12th May 2006, 06:39
No, it's one week for SD and one week for SS with a separate 3 hour essay exam for each of them. You must pass both for the Manager's Cert and that little red badge.

And as I said that's SM - I've taken (but not run) other courses such as ICTIM as I was running an SM Implementation team working closely with Deployment team and felt I needed more knowledge regarding Service Introduction...

I have since done all sorts of fun things like perform Reference Site Visits on suppliers (always good for a laugh) and now I know the difference between BIS and AIS... :freaky: (strange people, AIS managers...)

lukemg
12th May 2006, 08:24
Cheers Boys, some good info there. Also, I am aware of the difficulties involved in the role, which is why it commands a premium, why it offers a challenge and why there maybe some barriers to entry.
I am already performing the implementation role as I did at the previous company, it's something I believe I can do well but have no doubts there is more I can learn. I am not desperate to work contract again but it would be nice to have that as an option, companies with permie roles will not object to me being qualified either.
I should say that in all my working life including 10 years contracting, despite interviews telling me how stressful and difficult the job was going to be, without exception I have always found getting the job to be the only major barrier. The jobs themselves have always proved fairly easy to master so if I find myself struggling to get up to speed in any role I would relish the prospect rather than fear it.
I will keep looking for the next role, contract or perm and investigate some training options in the meantime so if current job drives me nuts I can sack it, do the training and take my chances !

lukemg
15th May 2006, 15:34
It's a funny old game saint. Got an interview for an SDM contract role 350/day (right now that is a fortune), close to home but only 3 months. Will face a dilemma if I get it, have to sack my permie job and jump back in the game (got burnt on the way out last time after skills became worthless). Could only last 3 months or even less and then what ? On the other hand, experience of contracting has been contracts extending for years.
I already know I will take it of offered, current gig isn't good enough to stay in and was always a stepping stone, just thought I was on the permie treadmill for a while at least.
Familiar burst of adrenaline when I got the call about the interview, still feels great to be back in the hunt. When you get the job it is even better of course, actually having to do it often proves a disappointment.....