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View Full Version : Enforced free training / IR35 Deemed issue???



Petrolhead
26th March 2012, 09:46
Hi all, newbie here, and first post from long time lurker.
I have searched for similar posts but can't quite find my question... So ;

Situation is just started first contract using Ltd co.
Client has already booked me on a 4 day training course in a few weeks being held internally, not sure if external company are actually providing the training or some of my clients own staff.

Course is to learn a common industry project management tool they use here.

I have not been asked to pay, and they are sending a few other contractors on it too. I imagine 4 days training is worth circa £1200+ in the marketplace.

So question is should I be worried about going on this course?

Not going is not an option as client insists on use of this tool.
Paying for it myself/my Ltd is not desirable as not even raised my first Invoice yet - and there is probably no mechanism to do this anyway here.

The only advice I found online is that contractors should pay for their own training to avoid Deemed employee challenges.

But what about my situation where effectively I am being 'forced' to take the training as a requirement of the contract.

An I worrying about nothing?

Thanks for any advice...

BolshieBastard
26th March 2012, 12:05
Hi all, newbie here, and first post from long time lurker.
I have searched for similar posts but can't quite find my question... So ;

Situation is just started first contract using Ltd co.
Client has already booked me on a 4 day training course in a few weeks being held internally, not sure if external company are actually providing the training or some of my clients own staff.

Course is to learn a common industry project management tool they use here.

I have not been asked to pay, and they are sending a few other contractors on it too. I imagine 4 days training is worth circa £1200+ in the marketplace.

So question is should I be worried about going on this course?

Not going is not an option as client insists on use of this tool.
Paying for it myself/my Ltd is not desirable as not even raised my first Invoice yet - and there is probably no mechanism to do this anyway here.

The only advice I found online is that contractors should pay for their own training to avoid Deemed employee challenges.

But what about my situation where effectively I am being 'forced' to take the training as a requirement of the contract.

An I worrying about nothing?

Thanks for any advice...

If a condition of the job is you must know how to use the tool and the course is the only way of doing that then, imho, there's no way you can stay on the job if you dont attend.

So, your options are to attend and stay or refuse and leave.

Regarding paying for the course I dont think this is an issue. If it bothers you, contact HR and offer to pay.

northernladuk
26th March 2012, 12:58
If you need to do it before they let you loose on the system then it doesn't matter what status you are, it has to be done. No problems with IR35 here. If you have to record completion of it on an internal training tracking system I would start worrying a little though.

Petrolhead
26th March 2012, 19:44
Thanks for the replies, it's interesting to hear other opinions.

I intend to go on the course, as naturally I want to continue the contract...

Contreras
26th March 2012, 20:30
So, your options are to attend and stay or refuse and leave.
Or attend and then leave. :laugh

garethevans1986
11th May 2012, 10:14
I'm in a bit of a dilemma here with near enough the same problem but the training is being held externally, everything else applies.

I'm edging on the "can't go because I would then be working within IR35" but just want it confirming.

Thanks
GE

BolshieBastard
11th May 2012, 10:47
I'm in a bit of a dilemma here with near enough the same problem but the training is being held externally, everything else applies.

I'm edging on the "can't go because I would then be working within IR35" but just want it confirming.

Thanks
GE

Thing is, if it's only one training course and all your other working practices are outside IR35, I dont think there's an issue.

The only time to be worried is when most or all of your (weighted) working practices make it look like you are IR35 caught.

Besides, if attendance on the course is mandatory for the job, it really is a question of attend or dont and likely be asked to leave.

garethevans1986
11th May 2012, 11:03
It'll be 3 separate days training I believe.

The client company was my last perm company I worked for. I've been brought in to do a specific project and I've also invoiced other companies for work under the same limited company whilst working on this contract.

I'm trying to stay outside of IR35 (signing in and out every day), nearly invoked the substitution clause last week but couldn't because my replacement couldn't get the time off his perm job (ex employee of the same client company), I've only really worked on the one project up to now.

The client company IT director doesn't quite understand why I can't just do what he wants me to do as he doesn't understand IR35 and why I can't be seen as an employee of the company.

I was asked to consult for the client company because of my knowledge of their systems where any other IT consultant could but would struggle because they wouldn't have this prior knowledge or experience.

Thanks
GE

BolshieBastard
11th May 2012, 11:47
It'll be 3 separate days training I believe.

The client company was my last perm company I worked for. I've been brought in to do a specific project and I've also invoiced other companies for work under the same limited company whilst working on this contract.

I'm trying to stay outside of IR35 (signing in and out every day), nearly invoked the substitution clause last week but couldn't because my replacement couldn't get the time off his perm job (ex employee of the same client company), I've only really worked on the one project up to now.

The client company IT director doesn't quite understand why I can't just do what he wants me to do as he doesn't understand IR35 and why I can't be seen as an employee of the company.

I was asked to consult for the client company because of my knowledge of their systems where any other IT consultant could but would struggle because they wouldn't have this prior knowledge or experience.

Thanks
GE

O-oh! Red flag!!

Working for your ex permie employing company on your first contract is not a good idea and ripe for IR35 pickings.

malvolio
11th May 2012, 12:15
Also IR35 is still contract by contract. What else you do doesn't matter.

Still, as we've said before, if everyone has to do it, there's no problem. But if you have to take it to do the job, exactly why did they hire you? You're supposed to be the expert. See how it works?

Your get out of jail cards are (a) don't charge them time for attending the course and (b) if it is task specific training, pay for it yourself, directly or indirectly by free work time.

garethevans1986
11th May 2012, 12:54
Thanks malvolio - It's only me and one other fella who have to go on the training, which they probably didn't realise they would have to do when they were decided to outsource their CRM product.

BolshieBastard - There was 6 months between when I worked for them perm and then contracting. I've contracted for somebody else in between.

GE

JamJarST
11th May 2012, 13:11
Also IR35 is still contract by contract. What else you do doesn't matter.

Still, as we've said before, if everyone has to do it, there's no problem. But if you have to take it to do the job, exactly why did they hire you? You're supposed to be the expert. See how it works?

Your get out of jail cards are (a) don't charge them time for attending the course and (b) if it is task specific training, pay for it yourself, directly or indirectly by free work time.Is that really necessary? If I attend a client site and their is a mandatory safety training, I shouldn't bill?

garethevans1986
11th May 2012, 13:23
The training isn't anything to do with safety/security, it's training on how to use a product which the client company is then planning to use to do data migrations.

GE

JamJarST
11th May 2012, 13:39
The training isn't anything to do with safety/security, it's training on how to use a product which the client company is then planning to use to do data migrations.

GEI was just using that as an example.

garethevans1986
11th May 2012, 13:40
I know JamJarST, I also see the point you were trying to point out.

GE

TheFaQQer
11th May 2012, 15:45
Is that really necessary? If I attend a client site and their is a mandatory safety training, I shouldn't bill?

No, because it's mandatory training which everyone needs to undertake. It's not direction and control, it's something that everyone needs to do.

MarillionFan
12th May 2012, 18:04
No, because it's mandatory training which everyone needs to undertake. It's not direction and control, it's something that everyone needs to do.

Free training? And you can bill for it!!!!

These guys are taking the mickey. Best to withhold your services immediately. :eyes

Wanderer
14th May 2012, 08:15
If I attend a client site and their is a mandatory safety training, I shouldn't bill?

That's a bad example because safety training could be seen as a legal requirement.

JamJarST
14th May 2012, 14:17
That's a bad example because safety training could be seen as a legal requirement.Ok, so how about training on a system used by your client?

cojak
14th May 2012, 15:27
It'll be 3 separate days training I believe.

The client company was my last perm company I worked for. I've been brought in to do a specific project and I've also invoiced other companies for work under the same limited company whilst working on this contract.

I'm trying to stay outside of IR35 (signing in and out every day), nearly invoked the substitution clause last week but couldn't because my replacement couldn't get the time off his perm job (ex employee of the same client company), I've only really worked on the one project up to now.

The client company IT director doesn't quite understand why I can't just do what he wants me to do as he doesn't understand IR35 and why I can't be seen as an employee of the company.

I was asked to consult for the client company because of my knowledge of their systems where any other IT consultant could but would struggle because they wouldn't have this prior knowledge or experience.

Thanks
GE
Oh Dear. You've got bigger worries than a bit of training I'm afraid...

Take a look at this thread.
http://forums.contractoruk.com/business-contracts/78561-contract-job-my-previous-permanent-company.html

garethevans1986
14th May 2012, 15:47
I know, especially after reading this - egos - new IR35 guidance (http://www.egos.co.uk/20120509_ir35_new_guidance.htm)

Thanks for the reply cojak.

GE