Tough times right now

[Gentile]

There are a few 'bad' job adverts out there right now. Maybe you'll have noticed it yourselves, as you can't help but be aware when a field you work in and monitor closely suddenly gets an influx of unrealistic/undesirable tenders on the boards. This one here caught my eye this morning. From the link:

"This role is perfect for you if you have .NET web experience, available immediately, and are looking for something to tide you over while you look for your next role. The project is in depth and will look great on your CV as experience. Alternatively, it is a great break into contracting, if you have recently started freelancing and want something to act as a bridge into the fast-track world of contracting, apply immediately and give me a call on etc, etc."

Pro rata 'Salary', £27-32k

I haven't seen that type of desperate and unrealistic 'trying to get experienced contractors for rates that even junior permies wouldn't entertain' for quite some time. The last time was back in 2003, in the brief dip that happened between the dot com bubble bursting and the contract market picking up again 12 months or so later.

At least the position above is actually listed as "Permanent" rather than "Contract", even though what they need is clearly a contractor that can get a result in as little time as they've budgeted for, and even though the text of the advert makes it clear it's a contractor they have in mind; do you think that 'permanent' role is going to come with holiday entitlement, a pension plan, free training, and all of the other trappings of permiedom? No, neither do I. They'd have been better paying a decent day rate and reducing the term to 3 months, and they'd probably have got someone that could do as much as a permie getting up to speed over six months would have, within in that three months.

On the other end of the scale, I've seen tenders being readvertised, looking for someone that will be a Prince II project manager - come Rainbow-Coloured ITIL Badge fundamentalist - come expert developer, DBA and rocket surgeon. Yet, when you apply they're always disappointed that you're not both a specialist and a generalist. I've got a fair old technical background, and I also happen to have mentored and had line management responisbility for technical teams in some of the permie roles I've undertaken (I don't know about you, but whilst I generally find there is some mentoring of ClientCos' permie staff during a contract, it's rarely if ever the case that you get asked to manage them, for IR35 reasons if nothing else). The only other type of individual they're likely to get for a managerial contract requiring technical skills is a Prince II type that's opened Visual Studio a few times, but who hasn't done any of the hard coding themselves in the positions they've been in and won't be in a position to make sound technical decisions.


I hope you lot are finding it better in your neck of the woods / niche technical areas right now.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

On the other end of the spectrum there are some BI dev "roles" coming through paying in the region of 500-600/day while everybody else is paying considerably less than that. Some blatant fishing attempts in my book.

[Gentile]

On the other end of the spectrum there are some BI dev "roles" coming through paying in the region of 500-600/day while everybody else is paying considerably less than that. Some blatant fishing attempts in my book.

Banking roles perchance?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

Banking roles perchance?

Possibly but you don't get those kind of rights outside London for banking.

[Gentile]

Possibly but you don't get those kind of rights outside London for banking.

I ask because up here banks tend to have to pay more than clients in other industry sectors, particularly the investment banks, since they have a bad rep for messing contractors about by constantly changing their minds about contract duration, and for getting confused about the differences between working with contractors and hiring permie staff. They therefore tend to have to pay top rate, because Contractors up here consequently treat those roles as high risk propositions. If contracts were Bond Credit Ratings, banking roles would be "DDD" rated, at least in Scotland.

[northernladuk]

I ask because up here banks tend to have to pay more than clients in other industry sectors, particularly the investment banks, since they have a bad rep for messing contractors about by constantly changing their minds about contract duration, and for getting confused about the differences between working with contractors and hiring permie staff. They therefore tend to have to pay top rate, because Contractors up here conse1quently treat those roles as high risk propositions. If contracts were Bond Credit Ratings, banking roles would be "DDD" rated, at least in Scotland.

I see what you are saying but IMO the IB clients tend to be a lot more high pressure with a culture that every pound spent must directly return two pounds and the like. It is a hire and fire culture for permies so it isn't going to be any better for contractors bearing in mind we are a flexible workforce. I personally wouldn't feel 'messed about' in contracts like this, it is just hard and fast business and I am there to be flexible. The extra rate covers this aspect for me. Being messed about for me is when more normal clients on average market rates act like dicks. Different style of working in different culture IMO so just take it at that. It's not for everyone I am sure.

[Gentile]

I see what you are saying but IMO the IB clients tend to be a lot more high pressure with a culture that every pound spent must directly return two pounds and the like. It is a hire and fire culture for permies so it isn't going to be any better for contractors bearing in mind we are a flexible workforce. I personally wouldn't feel 'messed about' in contracts like this, it is just hard and fast business and I am there to be flexible. The extra rate covers this aspect for me. Being messed about for me is when more normal clients on average market rates act like dicks. Different style of working in different culture IMO so just take it at that. It's not for everyone I am sure.

I just find IBs often don't plan well, and are surprised to discover that if they don't know where they want to go then any road will get them there. Most clients in other industries that you speak with have a fixed piece of work in mind, and do those things they need to do to ensure you're able to hit the ground running on day one, and deliver that added benefit for them that you mention. There's very little messing around with them: you interview, if you've got the skills you start, and you get on with delivering the item under discussion. Their own staff are usually glad to have you on-board or are at least ambivalent towards you, since it's a new face and a chance to learn a new skill for them. By contrast, with IBs you tend to find that their own internal IT staff aren't highly valued within their own culture, and they're consequently unmotivated in their own work and resentful of contractors. And, unlike anywhere else I've been, they do things that make you scratch your head, like not give you a desk or a dedicated PC to work at, but nonetheless require you not to use your own equipment. They can also be fairly paranoid about restricting access to the internet, thumb drives and that type of thing. It's hard to deliver value for someone that wants to have that much control over not just what you're there to do, but also how you should do it, and weighs you down with unnecessary bureaucracy. A lot of the best guys I know don't even both tendering for work with IBs any more, since, all things being equal, it's usually just less hassle to work for someone else that's actually interested in being helped.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I just find IBs often don't plan well, and are surprised to discover that if they don't know where they want to go then any road will get them there. Most clients in other industries that you speak with have a fixed piece of work in mind, and do those things they need to do to ensure you're able to hit the ground running on day one, and deliver that added benefit for them that you mention. There's very little messing around with them: you interview, if you've got the skills you start, and you get on with delivering the item under discussion. Their own staff are usually glad to have you on-board or are at least ambivalent towards you, since it's a new face and a chance to learn a new skill for them. By contrast, with IBs you tend to find that their own internal IT staff aren't highly valued within their own culture, and they're consequently unmotivated in their own work and resentful of contractors. And, unlike anywhere else I've been, they do things that make you scratch your head, like not give you a desk or a dedicated PC to work at, but nonetheless require you not to use your own equipment. They can also be fairly paranoid about restricting access to the internet, thumb drives and that type of thing. It's hard to deliver value for someone that wants to have that much control over not just what you're there to do, but also how you should do it, and weighs you down with unnecessary bureaucracy. A lot of the best guys I know don't even both tendering for work with IBs any more, since, all things being equal, it's usually just less hassle to work for someone else that's actually interested in being helped.

I have found that banks tend to be a lot more delivery focussed than many other industries - take where I am now or the public sector for example. I much prefer the high pressure, delivery oriented environments as they bring the best out of me and make me feel I am earning my rate. So yes they can be a bit messy but at least they get things done....

[Gentile]

I have found that banks tend to be a lot more delivery focussed than many other industries - take where I am now or the public sector for example. I much prefer the high pressure, delivery oriented environments as they bring the best out of me and make me feel I am earning my rate. So yes they can be a bit messy but at least they get things done....

I agree they're like the Public Sector, but I disagree that either of those sectors has a reputation for getting things done. One project that went on next to me in the Police (which I'm glad to say I wasn't a participant in) went ten times over budget, and was delivered many years late. They ended up asking questions about it in the Scottish Parliament it was so bad. And look at the fiasco with identity cards. It's not always the techies' fault. They're often just badly led at a local or at a political level. And as for banks......well, you need only look at the bailouts and catastrophes they've caused to international fiscal stability in recent years to see how badly the wheel's come off for them. That chaos isn't caused by being effective or by delivering.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I agree they're like the Public Sector, but I disagree that either of those sectors has a reputation for getting things done. One project that went on next to me in the Police (which I'm glad to say I wasn't a participant in) went ten times over budget, and was delivered many years late. They ended up asking questions about it in the Scottish Parliament it was so bad. And look at the fiasco with identity cards. It's not always the techies' fault. They're often just badly led at a local or at a political level. And as for banks......well, you need only look at the bailouts and catastrophes they've caused to international fiscal stability in recent years to see how badly the wheel's come off for them. That chaos isn't caused by being effective or by delivering.

Fair dos I guess it depends where abouts in banking you are working. I have no experience IB but worked in Retail and Technology Office.