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kingcook
3rd August 2012, 19:44
BBC News - Is outsourcing the cause of RBS debacle? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18577109)

Comment #570 (by John):

Hopefully this will act as a wake up call to directors who see IT as an overhead, a chance to justify huge bonuses cutting costs - replacing experienced developers with cheap coders based in India.

Sadly it wont.The UK was a world leaders in IT, that legacy has been squandered by greedy directors, and Labour/Tories have done nothing to stop it.

We should offshore the directors instead.

:D

BrilloPad
3rd August 2012, 19:58
I dont think its just directors. I fell that contractors have been under attack since 1997. Politicians have alot to answer for with IR35.

sbakoola
3rd August 2012, 20:04
I am personally fed up with Bobs in investment banking, they are a pain to deal with, hard to understand, some of them are very political and will take your job given the opportunity. Don't people understand that if you outsource the I.T. to Bob, Bob can make higher demands on your business in the long run.

Also their I.T. design proposals are a joke and I refuse to waste my time reviewing them.

This I.T. lark is seriously peeving me off, I'm going to try and move myself into a position of some power to try and weed out this non-sense.

BolshieBastard
3rd August 2012, 20:09
I am personally fed up with Bobs in investment banking, they are a pain to deal with, hard to understand, some of them are very political and will take your job given the opportunity. Don't people understand that if you outsource the I.T. to Bob, Bob can make higher demands on your business in the long run.

Also their I.T. design proposals are a joke and I refuse to waste my time reviewing them.

This I.T. lark is seriously peeving me off, I'm going to try and move myself into a position of some power to try and weed out this non-sense.

I agree with you and good luck.

ChimpMaster
3rd August 2012, 20:15
I am personally fed up with Bobs in investment banking, they are a pain to deal with, hard to understand, some of them are very political and will take your job given the opportunity. Don't people understand that if you outsource the I.T. to Bob, Bob can make higher demands on your business in the long run.

Also their I.T. design proposals are a joke and I refuse to waste my time reviewing them.

This I.T. lark is seriously peeving me off, I'm going to try and move myself into a position of some power to try and weed out this non-sense.

hear hear!

AtW
3rd August 2012, 20:15
Politicians have alot to answer for with IR35.

:rollin:

And IR35 affected outsourcing to 3rd world exactly how?

jmo21
3rd August 2012, 20:37
I am personally fed up with Bobs in investment banking, they are a pain to deal with, hard to understand, some of them are very political and will take your job given the opportunity. Don't people understand that if you outsource the I.T. to Bob, Bob can make higher demands on your business in the long run.

Also their I.T. design proposals are a joke and I refuse to waste my time reviewing them.

This I.T. lark is seriously peeving me off, I'm going to try and move myself into a position of some power to try and weed out this non-sense.

Every issue I've ever had with hopeless IT bob, my friend, a chemical scientist, has experienced with chemistry bob.

BusinessAnalyst2012
3rd August 2012, 22:00
This is the first time I've worked with offshored resource but I personally haven't seen any problems yet. We are only three weeks into the build, but so far my offshore dev team has been really enthusiastic and keen to learn. Surely technology is technology whether you are sitting at a desk in Manchester or Chennai! :happy

Cliphead
3rd August 2012, 22:10
...has been really enthusiastic and keen to learn

WTF? They don't know their job?

kingcook
3rd August 2012, 22:43
10

bless 'em all
3rd August 2012, 22:46
This is the first time I've worked with offshored resource but I personally haven't seen any problems yet. We are only three weeks into the build, but so far my offshore dev team has been really enthusiastic and keen to learn. Surely technology is technology whether you are sitting at a desk in Manchester or Chennai! :happy

You know that warm, fuzzy feeling you sometimes have when you first awake before you remember it's a work day?

You're having one right now. :laugh

mercenary
4th August 2012, 02:01
My new clientco has decided to be different having found India was a disaster - they are now going with a Romanian outsourcer who so far seems to be much better than the Indians but it is early days yet.

EternalOptimist
4th August 2012, 07:29
This is the first time I've worked with offshored resource but I personally haven't seen any problems yet. We are only three weeks into the build, but so far my offshore dev team has been really enthusiastic and keen to learn. Surely technology is technology whether you are sitting at a desk in Manchester or Chennai! :happy

RBS mighy have outsourced it's IT, but you seem to have outsourced your brain



:rolleyes:

suityou01
4th August 2012, 08:23
BBC News - Is outsourcing the cause of RBS debacle? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18577109)

Comment #570 (by John):

Hopefully this will act as a wake up call to directors who see IT as an overhead, a chance to justify huge bonuses cutting costs - replacing experienced developers with cheap coders based in India.

Sadly it wont.The UK was a world leaders in IT, that legacy has been squandered by greedy directors, and Labour/Tories have done nothing to stop it.

We should offshore the directors instead.

:D

POST (http://forums.contractoruk.com/general/80993-glorious-moment-when.html)

I have learned to laugh. The number of bob related comedy ****ups I am currently witnessing is absolutely staggering. Everyone can see it. It's the elephant in the room. I just make sure I document everything. I have even advised the pm to keep a project diary to record significant events.

If a company hires unskilled, incompetent people and them charges them out at £1000 per day, and gets away with it time and time again, then this is impressive in a perverse way. The joke of it is it's some business studies grad who's slimed his way into a position of power and makes decisions based on counting beans, and solely on that basis. When said director gets shitcanned they just schmooze their way into the next high powered gig, which again in a perverse way is impressive.

I for one am curious if I can learn a trick or two from these koonts while papering over my own arse and letting them carry the can? :D

norrahe
4th August 2012, 09:51
This is the first time I've worked with offshored resource but I personally haven't seen any problems yet. We are only three weeks into the build, but so far my offshore dev team has been really enthusiastic and keen to learn. Surely technology is technology whether you are sitting at a desk in Manchester or Chennai! :happy

Just wait till then end of the build and you start testing :eek

They might be able to hide problems if they are also doing the testing, the fun will really start when you try to UAT :eek :eek

Then you will need an onsite resource to fix the problems before you go live.

Been there, done that and got the t-shirt, it aint fun. If you have a project with offshore resources then you put in plenty of contingency and don't tell them about it, because you will need it to fix the mess.

Culturally they will always seem positive and everything will be fine, they do not like to relay negative messages or say that something is not going well, it is seen a a sense of failure to do so.

BoredBloke
4th August 2012, 10:49
Just wait till then end of the build and you start testing :eek

They might be able to hide problems if they are also doing the testing, the fun will really start when you try to UAT :eek :eek

Then you will need an onsite resource to fix the problems before you go live.

Been there, done that and got the t-shirt, it aint fun. If you have a project with offshore resources then you put in plenty of contingency and don't tell them about it, because you will need it to fix the mess.

Culturally they will always seem positive and everything will be fine, they do not like to relay negative messages or say that something is not going well, it is seen a a sense of failure to do so.

Well said. They will only let you know that everything is oing well until you find out that it isn't. Then they become all sloapy shouldered all of a sudden.

Robinho
4th August 2012, 12:00
What are the Tories or Labour supposed to do?

Stop bitching about competition and make sure you justify your own rate.

AtW
4th August 2012, 12:25
What are the Tories or Labour supposed to do?

Create policies that would encourage local employment - particularly in SMEs because they will wield a lot less lobbying power.

SueEllen
4th August 2012, 12:29
What are the Tories or Labour supposed to do?

Change the law so that they cannot come into this country except if they earn a decent living i.e. higher than the average median wage, and they have to pay tax in this country.

That way UK youth and UK graduates will have a chance of entering the industry

It would also help those who are on visa as I've had to work in the same office with people who have frankly been abused.



Stop bitching about competition and make sure you justify your own rate.
Some of them screw up really quickly......

minestrone
4th August 2012, 12:48
Thing about bobs is that a good percentage of them are very sneeky and devious.

jmo21
4th August 2012, 12:49
POST (http://forums.contractoruk.com/general/80993-glorious-moment-when.html)

I have learned to laugh. The number of bob related comedy ****ups I am currently witnessing is absolutely staggering. Everyone can see it. It's the elephant in the room. I just make sure I document everything. I have even advised the pm to keep a project diary to record significant events.

If a company hires unskilled, incompetent people and them charges them out at £1000 per day, and gets away with it time and time again, then this is impressive in a perverse way. The joke of it is it's some business studies grad who's slimed his way into a position of power and makes decisions based on counting beans, and solely on that basis. When said director gets tulipcanned they just schmooze their way into the next high powered gig, which again in a perverse way is impressive.

I for one am curious if I can learn a trick or two from these koonts while papering over my own arse and letting them carry the can? :D

Well said. This sums up exactly what I think of it all. Bloody management!

Robinho
4th August 2012, 14:28
Create policies that would encourage local employment - particularly in SMEs because they will wield a lot less lobbying power.

What and give UK businesses a competitive disadvantage because they have to employ more expensive contractors?

AtW
4th August 2012, 14:32
What and give UK businesses a competitive disadvantage because they have to employ more expensive contractors?

It's not a UK business if it does not mainly employ local workforce.

Robinho
4th August 2012, 14:35
It's not a UK business if it does not mainly employ local workforce.

This is factually incorrect. If it is registered in the UK then it is a UK business.

mudskipper
4th August 2012, 14:40
Create policies that would encourage local employment - particularly in SMEs because they will wield a lot less lobbying power.

How about making a company pay a tax equivalent to keeping a family of four on benefits every time they sponsor a Tier 2 - effectively that is a job a local person won't have. If a company really needed the specialist skills of an foreign worker, it would still be possible, but would prevent it being used simply as a way of cost cutting (which often exploits the actual worker as well).

AtW
4th August 2012, 14:45
This is factually incorrect. If it is registered in the UK then it is a UK business.

It's a UK registered company, but it's not a UK business.

Read this - Flag of convenience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience)

Same thing applies to businesses.

AtW
4th August 2012, 14:47
How about making a company pay a tax equivalent to keeping a family of four on benefits every time they sponsor a Tier 2 - effectively that is a job a local person won't have. If a company really needed the specialist skills of an foreign worker, it would still be possible, but would prevent it being used simply as a way of cost cutting (which often exploits the actual worker as well).

I think something like this would be reasonable - people who get work permits should be expected to paid highly in the first place (so min salary of at least £50k+), plus tax on top for training local work force etc.

Doing this would of course on one hand destroy intra-transfer scam, and also deplete party donations from those businesses that depend on it: both good things if you ask me! :laugh

Robinho
4th August 2012, 14:49
It's a UK registered company, but it's not a UK business.

Read this - Flag of convenience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience)

Same thing applies to businesses.

What so if a company is situation, registered and serving people of the UK it's not a UK business? Feels as if you haven't got a relevant point to make.

AtW
4th August 2012, 14:56
What so if a company is situation, registered and serving people of the UK it's not a UK business?

If this company is a subsidiary of a much larger company based outside of UK then it's not a UK business - it's just registered for convenience subsidiary.

Say Google has got fairly large presense in UK, they employ thousands of people, but do you really think it's a UK business? Relatively to their main operations in USA it's nothing, so it's a US business with UK presence.

Robinho
4th August 2012, 15:10
What's your point though? It's still being productive in the UK.

AtW
4th August 2012, 15:14
What's your point though? It's still being productive in the UK.

It's good that Google setup subdidiary here and hires people, they are certainly a much better example of some other companies who'd just setup on paper.

The job of Govt however is to make sure home grown companies are strong because they are less likely to fook off overseas and hopefully will hire more local work force - voters who put Govt in power in the first place.

One of the things that Govt could do for example is to give extra dividend tax relief to shareholders of companies that is related to amount of PAYE income/NIC those companies pay. So if you invest into company that hires local people who pay tax then it's only right you benefit from it. Now that would be clever policy.

Robinho
4th August 2012, 15:21
The job of Govt however is to make sure home grown companies are strong

Why? If home grown businesses are tulip then they deserve to fail. If they aren't tulip then they won't fail.

And again you're not going to achieve that if you...


give UK businesses a competitive disadvantage because they have to employ more expensive contractors?

AtW
4th August 2012, 15:25
Why? If home grown businesses are tulip then they deserve to fail. If they aren't tulip then they won't fail.

A local business that might not be as good as foreign company but they pay local taxes, employ people can be more beneficial to Govt is a long run.

What you need to think about is how much Govt earns long term from taxes and not having to pay benefits from local businesses who'll keep money locally, where as importers just take money out of country - for example Google channels money from UK companies who pay for ads via Irish subsidiary so UK gets fook all VAT and no corp tax on that money.

Robinho
4th August 2012, 15:32
Businesses aren't there to be a cash cow for the government. They are there to provide a service to consumers.

The solution is to have low tax rates.

AtW
4th August 2012, 15:38
Businesses aren't there to be a cash cow for the government. They are there to provide a service to consumers.

Govt is elected by residents, hence it's the direct responsibility of Govt to ensure residents have good life - this means well paid jobs with enough tax revenue for Govt to pay pensions and invest into long term projects that no western business would dare.

Robinho
4th August 2012, 15:41
The electorate are ******* idiots though. They don't understand global economics. They just want a government to be seen to be doing something, even if that thing is ultimately making their lives worse.

AtW
4th August 2012, 15:43
They don't understand global economics.

That's why reading CUK General should be compulsory for all UK residents over 18 :smokin

Robinho
4th August 2012, 15:44
If you're anything to go by, that's not going to work.

AtW
4th August 2012, 15:46
If you're anything to go by, that's not going to work.

I've got some Soviet teaching methods that virtually guarantee success :eyes

BS1397
4th August 2012, 16:28
but so far my offshore dev team has been really enthusiastic and keen to learn. :happy

Well this is just the kind of enthusiasm that RBS & NatWest must have gone for, why let skill get in the way? :D

mos
6th August 2012, 07:39
One small step in the right direction ... as I remember eFC was traditionally 100% pro outsourcing.

Why RBS (http://news.efinancialcareers.com/110401/why-rbss-tech-failure-means-a-fresh-wave-of-infrastructure-roles/)

minestrone
6th August 2012, 08:22
One small step in the right direction ... as I remember eFC was traditionally 100% pro outsourcing.

Why RBS (http://news.efinancialcareers.com/110401/why-rbss-tech-failure-means-a-fresh-wave-of-infrastructure-roles/)

I find it odd that RBS is claiming a big increase in IT spend in the last 3 years.

norrahe
6th August 2012, 08:32
I find it odd that RBS is claiming a big increase in IT spend in the last 3 years.

Probably it takes into account the amount of money spent sorting out all the c**k ups offshore, onshore! :eyes

eek
6th August 2012, 08:43
I find it odd that RBS is claiming a big increase in IT spend in the last 3 years.

Outsourcing only looks cheap until you notice all the things you forgot to mention in the contract and discover that its now a £1000 a day minimum charge out 1 day.

original PM
6th August 2012, 09:21
It is down to middle management butt kissing.

That get given a budget of x and will gain brownie point and maybe a small kick back if they can spend less money

so it means middle management no longer try and put projects live

they try and save as much money as possible while giving excuses for projects not going live... normally trying to blame it on other staff....

oscarose
6th August 2012, 09:23
It is down to middle management butt kissing.

That get given a budget of x and will gain brownie point and maybe a small kick back if they can spend less money

so it means middle management no longer try and put projects live

they try and save as much money as possible while giving excuses for projects not going live... normally trying to blame it on other staff....

+1

The Spartan
6th August 2012, 09:27
On my first contract I worked with an Offshore development in Vietnam, holy ***t it was hard work and things always got misinterpreted. Even though they were really cheap the time it took to get things in production was unbelieveably slow is was horrendous.

Spacecadet
6th August 2012, 09:45
Outsourcing only looks cheap until you notice all the things you forgot to mention in the contract and discover that its now a £1000 a day minimum charge out 1 day.

But outsourcing looks great for the UK Managers who can now put a definite £ amount on the projects they're (mis)managing.

"Managed UK rollout of sharepoint "

becomes

"Negotiated and managed a £3million global sharepoint impletementation."

Sysman
6th August 2012, 10:16
Outsourcing only looks cheap until you notice all the things you forgot to mention in the contract and discover that its now a £1000 a day minimum charge out 1 day.

And just changing the time a job runs costs that sort of money.

Sysman
6th August 2012, 10:17
But outsourcing looks great for the UK Managers who can now put a definite £ amount on the projects they're (mis)managing.

"Managed UK rollout of sharepoint "

becomes

"Negotiated and managed a £3million global sharepoint impletementation."

:spell

incompletementation :D

eek
6th August 2012, 10:18
But outsourcing looks great for the UK Managers who can now put a definite £ amount on the projects they're (mis)managing.

"Managed UK rollout of sharepoint "

becomes

"Negotiated and managed a £3million global sharepoint impletementation."

Which only works because people look at the big number of think oh thats a big serious project.

Meanwhile we look at that and think £3m for a job we could do in a very leisurely 6 months with £50k in licence fees to Microsoft. They were robbed.

Basil Fawlty
6th August 2012, 12:43
Pretty sure our onshore Bobs are responsible for the increased number of broken toilet seats at current clientco's office as well.

I bet the cost of replacing these is never included in the true figures...

original PM
6th August 2012, 12:48
Pretty sure our onshore Bobs are responsible for the increased number of broken toilet seats at current clientco's office as well.

I bet the cost of replacing these is never included in the true figures...

I have noticed that as well - is it some sort of national sport for them??

:confused:

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 14:16
What's your point though? It's still being productive in the UK.

It's leaking money out of our economy, not creating it, you idjit.

It's also in the way of ICT, a free pass by immigration and a zero tax liability situation. Totally open to abuse and the politicians will try and play the same card these joker MD's are - "well GDP is up!, sod the fact that job opportunities and income for our electorate is down"

Robinho
6th August 2012, 14:39
It's leaking money out of our economy, not creating it, you idjit.

I'm not the idjit who doesn't realise you can only spend Pound Sterling in the UK.

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 14:44
I'm not the idjit who doesn't realise you can only spend Pound Sterling in the UK.

lol, are you for real?

How can someone who claims to know so much about economics that you can go into the mechanics of capital and then try and paint that somehow we live in the 1800's with no currency market.

Any money that leaves the economy that is not spent in it is leaked. Savings are one thing, but at least they are temporary - farming our work overseas also commits to leaking money overseas in payments to foreign nationals.

ICT workers are generally paid in their home currency anyway, so the point is moot.

Or are you saying the 5% a bank might make on currency conversion (probably foreign owned again, by majority shareholders outside the UK) is somehow worth the 95% of our income we lose?

Or am I seriously just stupid and in need of re-education? I think this is a basic element of modern macro-economics (I did go to a poly)

We are selling our monetary power down the river for short term profits that are not even being distributed in most cases to UK nationals.

Robinho
6th August 2012, 15:00
Comparative advantage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage)

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 15:06
huh, is that relevant - its back to the 1800's again - this is intentional isnt it?

Wkipedia is just concensus, don't forget that

Quoting your OWN link though:

"Conditions that maximize comparative advantage do not automatically resolve trade deficits. In fact, many real world examples where comparative advantage is attainable may require a trade deficit. For example, the amount of goods produced can be maximized, yet it may involve a net transfer of wealth from one country to the other, often because economic agents have widely different rates of saving."

This is also an old theory which could be argued to be outdated due to the freedom of movement for world labour that we didn't see before.

If you are paying foreign nationals you are giving your economy's money away.

In the words of Red Dragon "dooo you seeeeeee?"

Robinho
6th August 2012, 15:12
If bobs have a comparative advantage over us then we should let them do the IT stuff, meanwhile we focus on another skill where we have a comparative advatage. This way people are better allocated to their skill and the world is a more efficient place meaning everyone benefits.

Life is not a zero sum game.

Again, because you cannot spend Pound Sterling abroad we are not "giving our money away" we are weakening the pound (which simply boosts exports).

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 15:20
I disagree completely..

Money leaking your economy is not a good thing.

Using a wiki link , follow through this - take note of how most people used to measure performance (e.g not solely on GDP) also how money injected into an economy promote growth and money removed promotes shrinkage.

Macroeconomics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroeconomics)

Now I know that people argue about the semantics of Keynesian Macroeconomics, and its old, but at least its not ruddy 1800's stuff.

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 15:21
(which simply boosts exports).

We need something to export... you know, something tangible, that exists..

Robinho
6th August 2012, 15:22
Money doesn't leak, it weakens the pound, which boosts exports.

Sysman
6th August 2012, 15:38
Again, because you cannot spend Pound Sterling abroad we are not "giving our money away" we are weakening the pound (which simply boosts exports).

You can spend the Pound Sterling abroad. It has long been a tradition of immigrants from third world countries to send money back home.

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 15:43
You can spend the Pound Sterling abroad. It has long been a tradition of immigrants from third world countries to send money back home.

And me, in other countries :) I always send my moolah back home.

I remember the fun we had waiting for exchange rate spikes to IBAN our cash home.

Robinho
6th August 2012, 15:44
You can spend the Pound Sterling abroad. It has long been a tradition of immigrants from third world countries to send money back home.

If you want to actually buy something you'll typically have to buy it from the UK though. Which means the money comes back.

Sysman
6th August 2012, 15:45
Money doesn't leak, it weakens the pound, which boosts exports.

A weak pound pushes up the prices of importing raw materials too.

Robinho
6th August 2012, 15:48
A weak pound pushes up the prices of importing raw materials too.

It reduces the cost to add value though.

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 15:49
Ah gawd, don't confuse him with Balance of Payments ; he's already struggling with economics more modern than the mid 1800's.

For the "typically buy from the UK"

What exports do foreign nationals typically buy from the UK from overseas?

Its much more likely their money will go to Germany, Japan, China, USA etc - as they manufacture things that people want.

I've just seen the post above, I call troll :P

Robinho
6th August 2012, 15:50
Scoobus you are a twat. You are clueless economically but yet you are the one giving me jibes.

Scoobos
6th August 2012, 15:52
I hope I'm not - I have a degree in Economics :( (*cough* 15 years ago)

Damn you got me, I already forgot about "It reduces the cost to add value though." as an answer to imports cost more.

Robinho
6th August 2012, 15:57
Well they obviously taught you Keynesian and not Austrian.

darmstadt
6th August 2012, 16:05
Surely the decisions made to use outsourcing need to be looked at in order to determine if outsourcing was the problem. It then has to be determined if checks were made to see if the company outsourced too were competent to provide the required services. If not then those who cleared the way for outsourcing need to be investigated to see why they made that decision so basically in the end it comes back around to the company possibly making a bad business decision.

d000hg
6th August 2012, 16:21
What and give UK businesses a competitive disadvantage because they have to employ more expensive contractors?UK businesses don't have to employ overly expensive contractors in the first place.


Thing about bobs is that a good percentage of them are very sneeky and devious.But not bitter, miserable alcoholics at least ;)

eek
6th August 2012, 21:26
UK businesses don't have to employ overly expensive contractors in the first place.

But not bitter, miserable alcoholics at least ;)

Contractors are cheaper than outsourcing. The former require management while the latter involves writing cheques (and probably panicking as the outsourcing stories / disasters start appearing in the news).

The Spartan
7th August 2012, 07:33
And me, in other countries :) I always send my moolah back home.

I remember the fun we had waiting for exchange rate spikes to IBAN our cash home.

Same here and I tend to spend my money in the UK and then pick up my goods when I come home for a weekend

Scoobos
7th August 2012, 09:07
Surely the decisions made to use outsourcing need to be looked at in order to determine if outsourcing was the problem. It then has to be determined if checks were made to see if the company outsourced too were competent to provide the required services. If not then those who cleared the way for outsourcing need to be investigated to see why they made that decision so basically in the end it comes back around to the company possibly making a bad business decision.

WHS , problem is we need regulatory bodies and that's a naughty word nowadays.

ChimpMaster
7th August 2012, 10:01
This is the first time I've worked with offshored resource but I personally haven't seen any problems yet. We are only three weeks into the build, but so far my offshore dev team has been really enthusiastic and keen to learn. Surely technology is technology whether you are sitting at a desk in Manchester or Chennai! :happy

"three weeks into the build"

"keen to learn"

"haven't seen any problems yet"

"Manchester"

:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh :rollin:

mos
7th August 2012, 10:30
"three weeks into the build"

"keen to learn"

"haven't seen any problems yet"

"Manchester"

:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh :rollin:

Yeap, just set the expectations right.

Basil Fawlty
8th August 2012, 08:32
"three weeks into the build"

"keen to learn"

"haven't seen any problems yet"

"Manchester"

:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh :rollin:

Interestingly I've been winding some of our Bobs up about how rubbish they are at the Olympics - 1 billion people and 3 medals ?? Anyway they're response was that it's frowned upon for youngsters to play sport as mum and dad think they should spend all day & night studying.

Given that it's fairly well proven that kids who do participate in sport grow up to be more well rounded individuals (premiership footballers excepted), I wonder if this goes some way to explaining why they're all cr@p at IT ?

Anyway that's enough bag of a fag packet social analysis for one day...time for a coffee...