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View Full Version : Why does private education produce so many medal winners?



gingerjedi
6th August 2012, 07:44
It's because fatcher sold off the playing fields innit. :tantrum:

Discus

sasguru
6th August 2012, 07:54
Those who have attended public school are the elite and have better genes. Don't know how Dodgy slipped through though.:wink

Seriously though, yes they have better facilities, sport is heavily encouraged to the extent that non-sporty types are shunned, excellence and competitiveness are encouraged rather than played down. Simples

BrilloPad
6th August 2012, 07:57
I suppose the threat of buggery every night encourages one to run fast.

MyUserName
6th August 2012, 08:30
They can afford better facilities and can pay for better staff.

Durbs
6th August 2012, 08:34
They can afford better facilities and can pay for better staff.

This. I went to public school and sport was a large part of the curriculum and culture. So where the kids at Pikey High were having the odd game of soccer and rounders, we were geared up for Rugby, Cricket, all the Track 'n Field events and we even had a pool and played water polo. The school also did regular cricket and rugby tours to SA and other far flung places.

Mich the Tester
6th August 2012, 08:38
Because we had porridge for breakfast, shepherd's pie for lunch and lots of fresh fruit and veg while the state school kids were getting fat on coco pops, burgers and chips.

And some other reasons that others have named.

Old Greg
6th August 2012, 08:40
Maybe the parents encourage them more?

Maybe the system produces more psychopaths?

Maybe sports included in Olympics favour those with access to élite facilities.

Charlie Brooker's take on it - I like the dressge comment:

Charlie Brooker: The Olympics (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/05/olympics-better-than-looked-on-tin)



I have no idea why some things qualify as Olympic sports and others don't, though there's an obvious and heavy class bias in favour of things you can imagine royals doing in a tapestry, such as archery or dressage. Falconry would surely be included if Ken Loach hadn't depicted a commoner doing it in the film Kes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064541/). You need your own castle grounds to practise half these sports. No wonder a disproportionate number of our victors thus far seem notably posh, apart from Bradley Wiggins, the first member of Oasis to attend a London comprehensive school and win four gold medals.
Not to do traditional blueblood sports down, but surely becoming a world-class Battlefield 3 (http://www.battlefield.com/uk/battlefield3) multiplayer competitor involves as much skill and dedication as teaching a horse to mince like a 1970s sitcom homosexual in the anachronistic "dressage". And Battlefield 3 has a far lower financial bar-to-entry, as does darts. Or hide-and-seek. Crazy golf is a huge missed opportunity too. Imagine an Olympic-scale crazy golf course designed by the nation's weirdest art students. You'd watch the shit out of that.

Mich the Tester
6th August 2012, 08:42
Maybe the parents encourage them more?



Indeed; perhaps the private schools just do well on the back of the parents' success and attitude. After all, most kids are at least 6 before they arrive at private school and so their parents probably have a greater influence in the end.

Durbs
6th August 2012, 08:43
This. I went to public school and sport was a large part of the curriculum and culture. So where the kids at Pikey High were having the odd game of soccer and rounders, we were geared up for Rugby, Cricket, all the Track 'n Field events and we even had a pool and played water polo. The school also did regular cricket and rugby tours to SA and other far flung places.

This also had the downside that kids who weren't sporty had a hard time of it. If you weren't sporty or very gifted academically then you were fecked.

I was a runner, mainly 1500 and Cross Country and because I was on the team, my weekends were owned by the team. I'd spend at least one full weekend day training or competing, I didn't have a choice in that. Hated it at the time but thats another reason, they push you more.

sasguru
6th August 2012, 08:44
Maybe the parents encourage them more?

Maybe the system produces more psychopaths?

Maybe sports included in Olympics favour those with access to élite facilities.

Charlie Brooker's take on it - I like the dressge comment:

Charlie Brooker: The Olympics (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/05/olympics-better-than-looked-on-tin)

Nil point. We public schoolers are just better than you commoners. HTH.

MyUserName
6th August 2012, 08:47
This also had the downside that kids who weren't sporty had a hard time of it. If you weren't sporty or very gifted academically then you were fecked.

I was a runner, mainly 1500 and Cross Country and because I was on the team, my weekends were owned by the team. I'd spend at least one full weekend day training or competing, I didn't have a choice in that. Hated it at the time but thats another reason, they push you more.

That is an interesting point, I have never thought of it from that point of view.

Old Greg
6th August 2012, 08:47
Nil point. We public schoolers are just better than you commoners. HTH.

:spel nil points

SupremeSpod
6th August 2012, 08:47
Nil point. We public schoolers are just better than you commoners. HTH.

You're even more delusional than I thought.

Doggy Styles
6th August 2012, 08:52
I suppose the threat of buggery every night encourages one to run fast.One would expect the threat of knifing or mugging among the state schools to be a greater incentive.

sasguru
6th August 2012, 08:52
You're even more delusional than I thought.

Trying to think is the source of many of your problems. You are not designed for it.

darmstadt
6th August 2012, 08:55
This. I went to public school and sport was a large part of the curriculum and culture. So where the kids at Pikey High were having the odd game of soccer and rounders, we were geared up for Rugby, Cricket, all the Track 'n Field events and we even had a pool and played water polo. The school also did regular cricket and rugby tours to SA and other far flung places.

I was at Pikey High and we did all that and more. Our school had 4 football pitches (1 doubled up as hockey), 2 rugby pitches, 1 cricket pitch plus nets, the full complement of track and field facilities, netball, 2 gyms, swimming pool, tennis courts and a fair bit more. I remember getting AAA certificates for various track and field events and other kids going off to do well in athletics and playing football and cricket for professional teams (I trailed for Essex CC while still at school.) Sadly most of the football and rugby stuff got sold off for housing which happened with many state schools....

darmstadt
6th August 2012, 08:56
Oh dear:


British athletes as Andy Murray, Bradley Wiggins, Helen Glover, Victoria Pendleton, Jessica Ennis, Greg Rutherford and Mo Farah, so it falls to me to make the point: they are all champions from a state school background ...

Doggy Styles
6th August 2012, 08:59
Oh dear:Why 'Oh Dear'?

darmstadt
6th August 2012, 08:59
Nil point. We public schoolers are just inbred sexual deviants. HTH.

FTFY

Old Greg
6th August 2012, 09:07
I suppose the threat of buggery every night encourages one to run fast.


One would expect the threat of knifing or mugging among the state schools to be a greater incentive.

It would be interesting if privately educated athletes are better at sitting down sports and state school educated athletes better at pegging it sports.

darmstadt
6th August 2012, 09:20
Why 'Oh Dear'?

Because it proves some of the traits of this thread wrong. Actually a new thread could be started "Why are state schooled sports people some of the highest earners?" and just put a list of the Premier League?

The Spartan
6th August 2012, 09:20
I did GCSE PE when I was in school and I have to say that even though there were some talented people in my class none of them went on to be professional sportsmen or women, shame really. I really just don't think the roadmap exists to pluck these people from their schools and give them the advice on where they can go to improve and hone their skills.

My high school did however produce Colin Jackson :smile

MarillionFan
6th August 2012, 09:28
It's because fatcher sold off the playing fields innit. :tantrum:

Discus

I don't recall my local Comp having access to sailing boats, rowing boats, tennis courts, horses or £20k racing bikes.

Olympics 2012: team GB medal winners broken down by sport, education and sex | Sport | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/datablog/2012/aug/06/team-gb-medal-winners-background)

(Though according to the charts in here is slightly pisses on my comment about horses & racing bikes :emb)

The Spartan
6th August 2012, 09:46
I have to love the: Where do Team GB's athletes come from?

Makes me laugh how we proclaim it as GB and then they do this, it is however as expected but still rather pathetic. I am from Wales but I refer to myself as British and I support all British national teams regardless. Being in Switzerland for months has shown me that despite the flaws of the UK it's people are top notch.

Sysman
6th August 2012, 09:51
This also had the downside that kids who weren't sporty had a hard time of it. If you weren't sporty or very gifted academically then you were fecked.

The academically gifted of us soon got p*ssed off with getting put in last to bat at cricket and being excluded from football in the playground, so we got stuck into other sports we could do well at. I was outshone by others at cricket and football but on a rugby pitch I was fearless. Our options opened up moving from the prep school to the main school, with a swimming pool, squash courts and rowing available, plus more cultural things like chess club, film club, debating society etc.


I was a runner, mainly 1500 and Cross Country and because I was on the team, my weekends were owned by the team. I'd spend at least one full weekend day training or competing, I didn't have a choice in that. Hated it at the time but thats another reason, they push you more.

I hated track running but we had some good woods near school which provided proper Cross Country, with hills, mud and streams aplenty. I really enjoyed that.

At my school we had Tuesday and Thursday afternoons off, plus Saturday morning school.That gave us two or three afternoons of sport every week. Lunch breaks were long enough to eat and fit in a decent training session, and some of our teachers were excellent coaches. As a result we had some good teams who could compete at National Schools level.

Robinho
6th August 2012, 10:04
It's because the Olympics is full of posh people sports. Like rowing, shooting, sailing etc.

All the chavs play football.

BrilloPad
6th August 2012, 10:18
It's because the Olympics is full of posh people sports. Like rowing, shooting, sailing etc.

All the chavs play football.

One of my chav mates was getting quite good at shooting. Until the fooking system locked him up. Its discrimination against those who don't have an estate to shoot on - and have to practice at the local post office. How was he to know there was a cash delivery taking place?

Old Greg
6th August 2012, 10:25
One of my chav mates was getting quite good at shooting. Until the fooking system locked him up. Its discrimination against those who don't have an estate to shoot on - and have to practice at the local post office. How was he to know there was a cash delivery taking place?

My late brother-in-law was a very decent old Etonian builder, who would have given him a step up. He employed a lovely chap who'd been away after a unfortunate sequence of events ended up with an old lady sucking on the of his shot gun on the floor of the local post office.

BrilloPad
6th August 2012, 10:27
My late brother-in-law was a very decent old Etonian builder, who would have given him a step up. He employed a lovely chap who'd been away after a unfortunate sequence of events ended up with an old lady sucking on the of his shot gun on the floor of the local post office.

How long did he get? My mate got 6 years. Though he was only caught as he was grassed up. The rest of the gang are still trying to hunt the snitch down.

MyUserName
6th August 2012, 10:42
In the comprehensive school I went to:

We had a couple of football/rugby pitches
Some tennis courts.
A hockey pitch.
An athletics track with long jump/shot put etc.
Two sports halls.
A swimming pool.
just before I left we also got a machine based multigym.

I think the school had teams in rugby, football and hockey.

Not very impressive facilities although I was in the same form as Shane Williams so we did something right!

Old Greg
6th August 2012, 10:43
How long did he get? My mate got 6 years. Though he was only caught as he was grassed up. The rest of the gang are still trying to hunt the snitch down.

Not sure. 6 sounds about right but it was some time ago.

Ignis Fatuus
6th August 2012, 11:35
Actually it doesn't. Jessica Ennis, Greg Rutherford, Mo Farah, Andy Murray .... I don't see a lot of private education there. Just a lot of achievers who don't need privilege to make it.

So let me ask this instead: why do so many people claim that private education produces better results? Could it be that they have a political axe to grind, more important to them than the facts?

gingerjedi
6th August 2012, 11:39
Actually it doesn't. Jessica Ennis, Greg Rutherford, Mo Farah, Andy Murray .... I don't see a lot of private education there. Just a lot of achievers who don't need privilege to make it.

The figures say it does, just rolling out some names whilst ignoring the fact that something like 50% of the medals are won by the 15% that are privately educated proves the point.

OwlHoot
6th August 2012, 11:54
One of my chav mates was getting quite good at shooting. Until the fooking system locked him up.

Blasting holes in bank ceilings with a sawn-off shotgun doesn't count :rolleyes:

DodgyAgent
6th August 2012, 12:21
Football shows that kids from state schools are just as capable of achievement in sport as any other schools, and I would add music and academia to that. The difference is of course background and facilities as well as aspirations and encouragement.
I go back to my original argument that the left are responsible for dumbing down all of these things - the only thing thay have failed to stop is football.

sasguru
6th August 2012, 12:26
Football shows that kids from state schools are just as capable of achievement in sport as any other schools, and I would add music and academia to that. The difference is of course background and facilities as well as aspirations and encouragement.
I go back to my original argument that the left are responsible for dumbing down all of these things - the only thing thay have failed to stop is football.

Which planet are you on? Has it escaped your attention that we are far from the best at football?
And you blame lefties for dumbing down education, yet clever, hardworking and aspirational kids can do well wherever they are. I blame the parents myself.

original PM
6th August 2012, 12:31
me n the missus were discussing this last night and we reckoned that the 'average' parent is unwilling/unable to provide the full level of commitment and support required to be a great athlete.

e.g. all the weekends/evenings ferrying the kids to and from various places can put a huge strain on time and money for the average parent.

obviosuly the rich and those in boarding schools do not have the time/money issues.

talent is a common thing and it is wasted every day.

MyUserName
6th August 2012, 12:39
It is not just that the average parent is unwilling to put the effort in. Olympic athletes are training for it from a very young age, that Heptatholon girl who was on 'League of their own' said she was being given protein drinks (or something like that) when she was 4.

It seems more like Olympic athletes have parents who drive them into to from a very young age and also happen to have natural aptitude for sport and the drive to make the relevant sacrifices to succeed.

This is, of course, then made much easier by having top notch equipment and expert coaches.

DodgyAgent
6th August 2012, 12:40
Which planet are you on? Has it escaped your attention that we are far from the best at football?
And you blame lefties for dumbing down education, yet clever, hardworking and aspirational kids can do well wherever they are. I blame the parents myself.
I agree
Da
Hot from Mars

Moscow Mule
6th August 2012, 12:42
It's commonly said that it takes 10000 hours to be "great" at something.

Very few parents that time to devote to their offspring an still support them.

Interesting move into the Chinese approach is being made by a few of the forward looking sports (swimming, cycling, rowing) whereby young adults with the correct body shape (e.g. lanky folk for rowing) are picked an given the correct training.

Old Greg
6th August 2012, 12:44
It's commonly said that it takes 10000 hours to be "great" at something.

Very few parents that time to devote to their offspring an still support them.

Interesting move into the Chinese approach is being made by a few of the forward looking sports (swimming, cycling, rowing) whereby young adults with the correct body shape (e.g. lanky folk for rowing) are picked an given the correct training.

And do we think that this is likely to be in the best interest of a child?

original PM
6th August 2012, 12:46
And do we think that this is likely to be in the best interest of a child?

No - and lets say Pistorius started to win things with his blades - how long before people were purposefully choping off their legs so they could use a blade attachment -- mainly thinking the chinese - who would 'enforce' it!

Pondlife
6th August 2012, 13:00
The reason GB excels at rowing is because our rivers and lakes don't have any crocodiles or hippos in, meaning more of our rowers survive to become champions.

There you go. Sorted.

Mich the Tester
6th August 2012, 13:05
And do we think that this is likely to be in the best interest of a child?

Yes, possibly, but what isn't in a child's best interests is what the Chinese sports coaches then go on to do to the kids.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n11TJPFxjRo&feature=related

And here we sit in luxury, pretending that drug use is the most serious problem in sports.

darmstadt
6th August 2012, 13:13
Germany are doing pretty crap in the Olympics this year which is quite interesting as although sports in schools here, I personally find, is pretty crap but a heck of a lot of German children do sports outside of schools and are encouraged by their parents. Every town has numerous sports clubs with the facilities, for example this one near me (http://tusgriesheim.de/) has facilities for 24 different sports yet they're still not doing very well, does this put paid to the arguments discussed (or just bandied about) here about parents support (or should Germany disunite and allow the East to get back to doping?)

Mich the Tester
6th August 2012, 13:17
Germany are doing pretty crap in the Olympics this year which is quite interesting as although sports in schools here, I personally find, is pretty crap but a heck of a lot of German children do sports outside of schools and are encouraged by their parents. Every town has numerous sports clubs with the facilities, for example this one near me (http://tusgriesheim.de/) has facilities for 24 different sports yet they're still not doing very well, does this put paid to the arguments discussed (or just bandied about) here about parents support (or should Germany disunite and allow the East to get back to doping?)

Germany's a rich country; the talent is spread quite wide across lots of sports and lots of choice as to what to do with free time. Anyway, this time they haven't got lots of medals but they have people who've come close so it could easily be different at the next olympics.

Ignis Fatuus
6th August 2012, 13:27
Why are medals, especially gold medals, won more often than relative population would imply, by people from Scotland and Yorkshire?

Moscow Mule
6th August 2012, 13:45
And do we think that this is likely to be in the best interest of a child?

Has done Tiger Woods, The Williams Sisters and a few others alright.

Sad to think of the others who didn't make it, but greatness doesn't come for free.

OwlHoot
6th August 2012, 13:54
e.g. all the weekends/evenings ferrying the kids to and from various places can put a huge strain on time and money for the average parent.

obviously the rich and those in boarding schools do not have the time/money issues. ..

OTOH, slum kids have the advantage that they can practice football all day, in their own streets. Hasn't that been how a lot of these South American players started?

Also, it's naive to assume that parents who send their kids to boarding school "do not have money issues". Maybe some don't, but many do.

darmstadt
6th August 2012, 14:02
OTOH, slum kids have the advantage that they can practice football all day, in their own streets. Hasn't that been how a lot of these South American players started?

Also, it's naive to assume that parents who send their kids to boarding school "do not have money issues". Maybe some don't, but many do.

Especially these boarding schools (http://www.justice.gov.uk/contacts/prison-finder/closed-young-offender-institution)...:laugh

EternalOptimist
6th August 2012, 14:14
Germany are doing pretty crap in the Olympics this year which is quite interesting as although sports in schools here, I personally find, is pretty crap but a heck of a lot of German children do sports outside of schools and are encouraged by their parents. Every town has numerous sports clubs with the facilities, for example this one near me (http://tusgriesheim.de/) has facilities for 24 different sports yet they're still not doing very well, does this put paid to the arguments discussed (or just bandied about) here about parents support (or should Germany disunite and allow the East to get back to doping?)

winning golds in the olympics is all very well, but its not the be all and end all.
having a bunch of healthy kids who just enjoy running around and having fun is much more important






:rolleyes:

Old Greg
6th August 2012, 14:23
winning golds in the olympics is all very well, but its not the be all and end all.
having a bunch of healthy kids who just enjoy running around and having fun is much more important






:rolleyes:

Exactly. I find this obsession with being high on the medal table as a nation very peculiar. It's smacks of totalitatrian regimes looking for a propaganda coup.

It's interesting to compare China and India on this score.

Doggy Styles
6th August 2012, 14:52
Because it proves some of the traits of this thread wrong. Actually a new thread could be started "Why are state schooled sports people some of the highest earners?" and just put a list of the Premier League?No it doesn't. For that you have to compare:

What proportion of medalists went to fee-paying schools

What proportion of people go to fee-paying schools

If more fee-payers win medals than expected under random distribution, the whole tenet of the thread is fair.

It's not about simply listing those medalists who went to state schools.

Doggy Styles
6th August 2012, 14:56
Actually it doesn't. Jessica Ennis, Greg Rutherford, Mo Farah, Andy Murray .... I don't see a lot of private education there. Just a lot of achievers who don't need privilege to make it.

So let me ask this instead: why do so many people claim that private education produces better results? Could it be that they have a political axe to grind, more important to them than the facts?Have you heard of the term 'statistics'? :wink

Sysman
6th August 2012, 15:10
Why are medals, especially gold medals, won more often than relative population would imply, by people from Scotland and Yorkshire?

'Cos we're determined and tough.

It could also be that sports clubs are more affordable and parents don't spend half their lives sitting in traffic jams.