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d000hg
14th August 2012, 11:37
My client requires experienced programmers. Successful candidates will be involved in all aspects of the programming work. You will be involved in key game systems architecture design and implementation, as well as Systems requirements capture, analysis, design, implementation and testing. You will programme mainly using C++, and be involvement in all aspects of software development through the game development cycle, supporting lead programmer.

Essential skills:
-Significant experience programming at least one of these consoles : X360/PS3/Wii/Wii-U
-C++ programming expertise
-Experience using Visual Studio .net or similar
-Strong experience of game development practices
-Highly competent using version control software, Perforce or similar
-Experience of multi-platform game/engine development

Rate: £125 - 175 per day.
Contract: 6 months;
Location: Brighton (remote work from London office is possible).Sounds like fun apart from the rate. Even though game-dev pays less well than regular dev work, that's abyssal. That's LESS than a decent Indian chappie costs, so I doubt it's even an attempt to get a bob in.

louie
14th August 2012, 11:42
Sounds like fun apart from the rate. Even though game-dev pays less well than regular dev work, that's abyssal. That's LESS than a decent Indian chappie costs, so I doubt it's even an attempt to get a bob in.

I guess the working hours and pressure would be worse than normal dev roles as well. I bet the get a lot of interest as the role has kudos certain young programmers.

d000hg
14th August 2012, 11:44
Maybe worse hours, maybe not. Depends a lot on the company. For a young guy that's an OK rate, true, but a young guy doesn't meet the requirements.

OwlHoot
14th August 2012, 11:46
Sounds like fun apart from the rate. Even though game-dev pays less well than regular dev work, that's abyssal. That's LESS than a decent Indian chappie costs, so I doubt it's even an attempt to get a bob in.

A game shop using a dated wheezy old thing like Perforce? That's a bit like a pizza delivery guy driving a horse and cart.

Surely any games company worth their salt would be using git these days.

Gentile
14th August 2012, 12:12
Sounds like fun apart from the rate. Even though game-dev pays less well than regular dev work, that's abyssal. That's LESS than a decent Indian chappie costs, so I doubt it's even an attempt to get a bob in.

And I thought this was bad (posted this morning):


Mobile UI Developer - J2EE, J2ME, .Net, VC++, BREW
Glasgow - £150 - £175.00 Per Day
Contract

Mobile UI Developer required for a 6 month based in Glasgow, may suit local candidates due to rate available skills required are:

• J2EE - including JSF, JSP, JPA, Java EE, WebServices
• J2ME - Including HTML, Javascript
• .Net - including ADO.NET
• VC++ - Including GUI Programming
• BREW

Please forward your CV asap.

You wont get someone with .net and J2EE, not for that rate.

Plus I see that a role I interviewed for back in July has now been re-advertised as a "permanent" role, but with exactly the same JD. Which means they didn't hire anybody. Which means they were wasting my time by getting me to come and see them.

Tyre kickers. Don't they realise that it's all the same people that monitor these roles all the time?, and if they get a name for crying wolf then nobody will take them seriously even if they do stopping messing about and decide to get real about their recruiting efforts? Reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhG_zMGOMMs&feature=related) (NSFW).

d000hg
14th August 2012, 12:22
A game shop using a dated wheezy old thing like Perforce? That's a bit like a pizza delivery guy driving a horse and cart.

Surely any games company worth their salt would be using git these days.Maybe they're more interested in a tool that works, and getting work done, than jumping to the flavour-of-the-month tool. Non-distributed tools like SVN & Perforce are great and they work.

And anyway game-dev has never been about cutting-edge tech, not when you're working on consoles anyway...

aussielong
14th August 2012, 13:00
And I thought this was bad (posted this morning):



You wont get someone with .net and J2EE, not for that rate.

Plus I see that a role I interviewed for back in July has now been re-advertised as a "permanent" role, but with exactly the same JD. Which means they didn't hire anybody. Which means they were wasting my time by getting me to come and see them.

Tyre kickers. Don't they realise that it's all the same people that monitor these roles all the time?, and if they get a name for crying wolf then nobody will take them seriously even if they do stopping messing about and decide to get real about their recruiting efforts? Reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhG_zMGOMMs&feature=related) (NSFW).

If a role disappears and then comes back on at a lower rate , or permie it means they had a lot of interest and can therefore offer less. They usually pull it for a few weeks then it comes back on at new lower rate.

BlasterBates
14th August 2012, 13:09
I reckon games programming would be fun. It's not like the consequences are devastating when you screw up is it?

You can imaging the bug report...."Gandolf hangs when trying to enter the temple of doom".

EternalOptimist
14th August 2012, 13:25
This one caught my eye




My client requires 2 experienced programmers. Successful candidates will be involved in all aspects of the programming work. You will be involved in key climate modelling systems architecture design and implementation, as well as Planetary climate Systems requirements capture, analysis, design, implementation and testing. You will programme mainly using Excel and vb, and be involvement in all aspects of software development through the climate model development cycle, supporting lead programmer.

Essential skills:
-Significant experience predicting summer ice loss
-ability to produce a trend in excel
-Experience in saving poley bears or other public icons
-Strong experience of inventing/misunderstanding data
-Highly competent deleting emails and fending FOI requests
-Experience of multi-model feedback thingies

Rate: £125.50 - 175.85 per day.
Contract: 6 months or the office floods, whichever comes first;
Location: East Anglia (remote work from London office is possible).




:rolleyes:

OwlHoot
14th August 2012, 13:57
Maybe they're more interested in a tool that works, and getting work done, than jumping to the flavour-of-the-month tool. Non-distributed tools like SVN & Perforce are great and they work.

And anyway game-dev has never been about cutting-edge tech, not when you're working on consoles anyway...

Hmm, maybe you're right - I just tend to think of games developers as being pretty cutting edge with the software tools they use, including source control, and perforce being more the kind of thing used in an old-fashioned stuffed-shirt software house maintaining a bespoke accounting package or something.

(Maintaining branches in perforce, for example, is like trying to knit chain mail.)

d000hg
14th August 2012, 14:45
I reckon games programming would be fun. It's not like the consequences are devastating when you screw up is it?

You can imaging the bug report...."Gandolf hangs when trying to enter the temple of doom".Well nothing's mission-critical generally speaking although if you're working on a MMO you can be dealing with real money and confidential data. These days, a bug in the game can be fixed by patching over the web so it's not too bad. But 10 years ago, if major bugs got through into production, you were a bit screwed - you'd have to send users a new version of the CD with a fixed version, and a buggy game at launch could lead to bad reviews and a major loss of profit.


Hmm, maybe you're right - I just tend to think of games developers as being pretty cutting edge with the software tools they use, including source control, and perforce being more the kind of thing used in an old-fashioned stuffed-shirt software house maintaining a bespoke accounting package or something.

(Maintaining branches in perforce, for example, is like trying to knit chain mail.)Game-dev is typically not so hot on methodology... hack changes in as you go :)

VectraMan
14th August 2012, 14:57
Game devs have always been underpaid, especially considering the relative high degree of skill required (they know about >> operators and everything). I guess it's down to appearing to be exciting and so having no trouble attracting people, although I'm sure the reality is pretty awful. Can you imagine having to make Thorin sing a song about gold for the thousandth time that day to try to track down a bug?

d000hg
14th August 2012, 15:43
I know about << but what is this >> of which you speak?

SupremeSpod
14th August 2012, 16:17
I know about << but what is this >> of which you speak?

It's an intrinsic that produces the "FUCTIFINO" expression*



















*On most socalled experts during interview :winker:

aussielong
14th August 2012, 20:24
I know about << but what is this >> of which you speak?

Right shift operator... Its a fast way of dividing an integer by 2 IIRC. The bits are shifted to the right and 0 put in the high bit

Keep up!

hyperD
14th August 2012, 22:18
I thought >> was just much, much greater than > ?

Fra
14th August 2012, 22:30
I guess the working hours and pressure would be worse than normal dev roles as well. I bet the get a lot of interest as the role has kudos certain young programmers.

Usually they want for such a rate experienced people, this is why the number of experienced game programmers is not so big, after a while they realize that in other
fields the pay is much higher.

darmstadt
15th August 2012, 07:20
I thought >> was just much, much greater than > ?

The list:



= True if the terms are equal (numerically or when padded, and so forth)
\=, ¬=, /= True if the terms are not equal (inverse of =)
> Greater than
< Less than
>< Greater than or less than (same as not equal)
<> Greater than or less than (same as not equal)
>= Greater than or equal to
\<, ¬< Not less than
<= Less than or equal to
\>, ¬> Not greater than
== True if terms are strictly equal (identical)
\==, ¬==, /== True if the terms are NOT strictly equal (inverse of ==)
>> Strictly greater than
<< Strictly less than
>>= Strictly greater than or equal to
\<<, ¬<< Strictly NOT less than
<<= Strictly less than or equal to
\>>, ¬>> Strictly NOT greater than
& AND Returns 1 if both terms are true
| Inclusive OR Returns 1 if either term is true
&& Exclusive OR Returns 1 if either (but not both) is true
Prefix \,¬ Logical NOT Negates; 1 becomes 0, and 0 becomes 1

d000hg
15th August 2012, 09:17
Right shift operator... Its a fast way of dividing an integer by 2 IIRC. The bits are shifted to the right and 0 put in the high bit

Keep up!Whoosh.

Which language is it has >>> and <<< which does a shift with wrapping?

Bunk
15th August 2012, 10:32
Whoosh.

Which language is it has >>> and <<< which does a shift with wrapping?

Javascript has >>> but no <<<. It's an unsigned right shift. Never used it in my life :smokin

d000hg
15th August 2012, 10:38
Maybe it was an addition to a non-standard C compiler... as >>/<< map directly to SHR/SHL (or is it SAR/SAL?), >>>/<<< mapped to ROR/ROL.

aussielong
15th August 2012, 10:43
Maybe it was an addition to a non-standard C compiler... as >>/<< map directly to SHR/SHL (or is it SAR/SAL?), >>>/<<< mapped to ROR/ROL.


>> is from C++, I don't recall seeing it in C but I haven't programmed in C for 15 years so I could be wrong. I don't think it's used much because the compiler should do it for you these days anyway and I guess with fast hardware these days, getting the last millisecond performance out of the code is not most peoples concern.

aussielong
15th August 2012, 10:46
Whoosh.

Which language is it has >>> and <<< which does a shift with wrapping?

>>> is C++ too. I think it similar to >> but one pads with 0 and one doesn't. Java is going back to C++ with increasingly complicated and ugly syntax.

DodgyAgent
15th August 2012, 11:16
:tumble:

EternalOptimist
15th August 2012, 11:21
:tumble:

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/002/cache/angler-fish_222_600x450.jpg

VectraMan
15th August 2012, 12:05
>> is from C++, I don't recall seeing it in C but I haven't programmed in C for 15 years so I could be wrong.

You are wrong.


I don't think it's used much because the compiler should do it for you these days anyway and I guess with fast hardware these days, getting the last millisecond performance out of the code is not most peoples concern.

How do you tell the compiler to do a bit shift, other than using the bitshift operators? And then what does it optimise it to?


>>> is C++ too. I think it similar to >> but one pads with 0 and one doesn't. Java is going back to C++ with increasingly complicated and ugly syntax.

Well now you're just making stuff up. What does it pad with if it's not 0? 1?

If it's a signed value, and you shift right, it pads with 0 if positive or 1 if negative. If it's unsigned, it pads with 0. Java seems to have two seperate >> and >>> operators, for some inexplicable reason.

d000hg
15th August 2012, 12:34
Was ANY part of AL's post accurate :rollin:

Although a compiler COULD change a multiplication/division into a shift operation if it wanted to, if you are multiplying by a constant e.g x *= 32.

Bunk
15th August 2012, 13:04
You are wrong.



How do you tell the compiler to do a bit shift, other than using the bitshift operators? And then what does it optimise it to?



Well now you're just making stuff up. What does it pad with if it's not 0? 1?

If it's a signed value, and you shift right, it pads with 0 if positive or 1 if negative. If it's unsigned, it pads with 0. Java seems to have two seperate >> and >>> operators, for some inexplicable reason.

If it's the same as Javascript then the >>> pads it with zero whether it's positive or negative, hence it's the unsigned right shift operator.

aussielong
15th August 2012, 16:57
You are wrong.



How do you tell the compiler to do a bit shift, other than using the bitshift operators? And then what does it optimise it to?

Well now you're just making stuff up. What does it pad with if it's not 0? 1?

If it's a signed value, and you shift right, it pads with 0 if positive or 1 if negative. If it's unsigned, it pads with 0. Java seems to have two seperate >> and >>> operators, for some inexplicable reason.

These operators make it fast to multiply and divide by powers of 2, which can be done using others operators, clearly. Some compilers will replace a multiply by 2 with a bit shift to the left.

You get 0 padding if you use >>>, I think with >> you don't... Which leaves the top bits undefined after the shift.

This shouldn't be in general really should it.

SupremeSpod
15th August 2012, 17:02
These operators make it fast to multiply and divide by powers of 2, which can be done using others operators, clearly. Some compilers will replace a multiply by 2 with a bit shift to the right.

You get 0 padding if you use >>>, I think with >> you don't... Which leaves the top bits undefined after the shift.

How can you leave the top bits undefined? You'd ***** the value up.

Spod - In "I ******** Despair" mode!

aussielong
15th August 2012, 17:04
How can you leave the top bits undefined? You'd ***** the value up.

Spod - In "I ******** Despair" mode!

It doesn't matter if you are only after the lower bits. It's faster than padding unnecessarily.

Another bloke who does not know his limitations.

chef
15th August 2012, 17:10
I'm with DA on this one, reading this thread is interesting but also completely over my head. Can someone give a small example of >> << <<< and >>> in some code please so I have a better chance of actually keeping up

d000hg
15th August 2012, 17:17
I think it's a bit over the line trolling on technical stuff like AL is doing, people might think he's correct and muck up their work!

aussielong
15th August 2012, 17:19
I think it's a bit over the line trolling on technical stuff like AL is doing, people might think he's correct and muck up their work!

Get orf moi laaand!!

SupremeSpod
15th August 2012, 17:20
It doesn't matter if you are only after the lower bits. It's faster than padding unnecessarily.

Another bloke who does not know his limitations.

So, by your logic...


unsigned int a = 4;

a = a >> 1;

The answer could be unpredictable? Sorry mate you failed the interview. :winker:

aussielong
15th August 2012, 17:28
So, by your logic...


unsigned int a = 4;

a = a >> 1;

The answer could be unpredictable? Sorry mate you failed the interview. :winker:

Right shifting a negative signed integer is undefined. Or rather , the result is platform and compiler dependent.

You wouldn't be interviewing me pal.

SupremeSpod
15th August 2012, 17:35
Right shifting a negative signed integer is undefined. Or rather , the result is platform and compiler dependent.

You wouldn't be interviewing me pal.

You're damn right I wouldn't, you wouldn't make it past DodgyAgent.

aussielong
15th August 2012, 17:38
You're damn right I wouldn't, you wouldn't make it past DodgyAgent.

Good comeback!