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DimPrawn
21st September 2012, 10:13
UK deficit widens to biggest on record for August - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9557329/UK-deficit-widens-to-biggest-on-record-for-August.html)

Public sector net borrowing excluding financial sector interventions - the government's preferred measure - rose last month to £14.41bn from £14.37bn in August 2011, the Office for National Statistics said.

That was the highest for any August since records began in January 1993, but below economists' forecast in a Reuters poll for £15bn.

It took borrowing in the fiscal year to date to £31bn, down from £48.45bn in the April-August period 2011. However, stripping out the transfer of Royal Mail pension assets, the deficit stood at £59bn, up 21.8pc compared to April-August 2011.

Anyone else think having a pension pot is a sitting duck?

Have NuLab actually left the building?

:winker:s

Gentile
21st September 2012, 10:39
Pensions are a mugs' game. That's why Assurance companies have got to try and force them on people by lobbying the government to come up with legislation that automatically enrols the chumps that take them out, in the hope that inertia will make their profits for them where traditional marketing has failed to. It's exactly the same con as "automatic renewal" for car insurance that they've been getting away with for years; pretending their interest is in "saving the customer the trouble" of making their own informed purchasing decisions, when in reality of course their sole and only interest is in company profits, which they can only achieve by screwing pension scheme members and insurance holders over.

There have been way too many schemes that have gone bust, or have suddenly become worthless right before they were due to pay out as the government or those running the schemes change their minds about what was "affordable" in the current economic climate. I wish I could do that with my mortgage: dear Mortgage Company, I know I said I'd pay X at time Y, but really, in this climate, that's just no longer affordable. Suck it up, why don't you?

It makes me laugh when I hear self-serving scheme organisers trying to con new members into joining by talking about the supposed "free money" they'll be turning down by not joining their blatant pyramid schemes. In reality all you're doing by not joining is denying them free money, which they would otherwise have got from a combination of your wages and the Treasury in the form of tax breaks for each sucker customer they sign up. It's your own tax and your own wages that are paying for that so-called "free" money, and the percentage you pay vs the percentage that comes from tax breaks will change dramatically in years to come, once you've already invested a few years in an increasingly-worthless scheme. There's nothing free about that money when it comes time to pay out either: it's gone, having been used to pay the founders of the pyramid scheme years before.

All today's pension scheme members will be left with when they retire, if they're lucky, is round about the same pittance that all the people that never joined pension schemes in the first place will get from the state anyway. If you've ever been unemployed you'll recognise the irony: despite having paid tax for years to support the NI system, you'll find you get a whole 7 weeks to find a job or you'll be on the same crap money as every dole bludger that's never worked a day in their lives. Don't be surprised when, aged 75 (or whatever the retirement age will be then) you experience the exact same level of contempt.

OwlHoot
21st September 2012, 10:42
UK deficit widens to biggest on record for August - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9557329/UK-deficit-widens-to-biggest-on-record-for-August.html)

Public sector net borrowing excluding financial sector interventions - the government's preferred measure - rose last month to £14.41bn from £14.37bn in August 2011, the Office for National Statistics said.

That was the highest for any August since records began in January 1993, but below economists' forecast in a Reuters poll for £15bn.

It took borrowing in the fiscal year to date to £31bn, down from £48.45bn in the April-August period 2011. However, stripping out the transfer of Royal Mail pension assets, the deficit stood at £59bn, up 21.8pc compared to April-August 2011.

Anyone else think having a pension pot is a sitting duck?

Have NuLab actually left the building?

:winker:s

Saw the article, and wondered what the inflation adjusted figures would be (if these aren't already)

OwlHoot
21st September 2012, 10:55
Pensions are a mugs' game. That's why Assurance companies have got to try and force them on people by lobbying the government to come up with legislation that automatically enrols the chumps that take them out ...

Quite agree, and the same will probably apply to property landlords in the long term. People who think their property portfolio will be a nice and secure little earner for their old age are falling into the classic schoolboy error of assuming that everything will stay roughly as it is. But in fact changes always lead to other changes to compensate, and in the coming years property will be too much of a juicy target for hard pressed politicians to ignore. :eek

escapeUK
21st September 2012, 10:57
All today's pension scheme members will be left with when they retire, if they're lucky, is round about the same pittance that all the people that never joined pension schemes in the first place will get from the state anyway. If you've ever been unemployed you'll recognise the irony: despite having paid tax for years to support the NI system, you'll find you get a whole 7 weeks to find a job or you'll be on the same crap money as every dole bludger that's never worked a day in their lives. Don't be surprised when, aged 75 (or whatever the retirement age will be then) you experience the exact same level of contempt.

Exactly! You are one switched on cookie on this subject. Coupled with the fact that whatever money you put into a pension now is worth 50% less every 10 years or so, it is a complete mugs game.

Talking of which, I need to look into the new pensions legislation as Im sure an argument will ensue at clientco. Do you know much about it G?

fullyautomatix
21st September 2012, 12:07
Pensions are a mugs' game. That's why Assurance companies have got to try and force them on people by lobbying the government to come up with legislation that automatically enrols the chumps that take them out, in the hope that inertia will make their profits for them where traditional marketing has failed to. It's exactly the same con as "automatic renewal" for car insurance that they've been getting away with for years; pretending their interest is in "saving the customer the trouble" of making their own informed purchasing decisions, when in reality of course their sole and only interest is in company profits, which they can only achieve by screwing pension scheme members and insurance holders over.

There have been way too many schemes that have gone bust, or have suddenly become worthless right before they were due to pay out as the government or those running the schemes change their minds about what was "affordable" in the current economic climate. I wish I could do that with my mortgage: dear Mortgage Company, I know I said I'd pay X at time Y, but really, in this climate, that's just no longer affordable. Suck it up, why don't you?

It makes me laugh when I hear self-serving scheme organisers trying to con new members into joining by talking about the supposed "free money" they'll be turning down by not joining their blatant pyramid schemes. In reality all you're doing by not joining is denying them free money, which they would otherwise have got from a combination of your wages and the Treasury in the form of tax breaks for each sucker customer they sign up. It's your own tax and your own wages that are paying for that so-called "free" money, and the percentage you pay vs the percentage that comes from tax breaks will change dramatically in years to come, once you've already invested a few years in an increasingly-worthless scheme. There's nothing free about that money when it comes time to pay out either: it's gone, having been used to pay the founders of the pyramid scheme years before.

All today's pension scheme members will be left with when they retire, if they're lucky, is round about the same pittance that all the people that never joined pension schemes in the first place will get from the state anyway. If you've ever been unemployed you'll recognise the irony: despite having paid tax for years to support the NI system, you'll find you get a whole 7 weeks to find a job or you'll be on the same crap money as every dole bludger that's never worked a day in their lives. Don't be surprised when, aged 75 (or whatever the retirement age will be then) you experience the exact same level of contempt.


It depends on the scheme. Some companies offer generous schemes and in some you can choose how the money is invested. Some companies offer matching contributions or more for permie employees. This is a doubling of your money instantly but obviously you have to make sure you have a say in how its invested.

NHS pensions and council pensions are also very very generous and I assuming guaranteed. So really sometimes its not a mugs game, its a gravy train.

ZARDOZ
21st September 2012, 12:16
Quite agree, and the same will probably apply to property landlords in the long term. People who think their property portfolio will be a nice and secure little earner for their old age are falling into the classic schoolboy error of assuming that everything will stay roughly as it is. But in fact changes always lead to other changes to compensate, and in the coming years property will be too much of a juicy target for hard pressed politicians to ignore. :eek

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OwlHoot again

escapeUK
21st September 2012, 12:27
Quite agree, and the same will probably apply to property landlords in the long term. People who think their property portfolio will be a nice and secure little earner for their old age are falling into the classic schoolboy error of assuming that everything will stay roughly as it is. But in fact changes always lead to other changes to compensate, and in the coming years property will be too much of a juicy target for hard pressed politicians to ignore. :eek

I agree that governments will grasp at any source of revenue they can, but Im pretty sure the daft people of this isle will increase house prices by another 50% the first sign of any boom that comes along.

minestrone
21st September 2012, 12:40
What is the score with means testing of the state pension these days?

IF you have an private pension that brings in more than the basic state pension (107 pw) do they reduce that?

Gentile
21st September 2012, 12:50
It depends on the scheme. Some companies offer generous schemes and in some you can choose how the money is invested. Some companies offer matching contributions or more for permie employees. This is a doubling of the money that you'll never see again going into the black hole of a pyramid scheme.

NHS pensions and council pensions are also very very generous and I assuming guaranteed. So really sometimes its not a mugs game, its a gravy train.

FTFY. As for the "gravy train" that is public sector pension schemes, all you need to do to benefit from one is accept a job paying crap wages for 30-40 years, whilst at the same time accept being mired in so much red tape that you'll never be able to be effective at whatever it is that you do. With that kind of attractive prospect, it's a wonder so few people sign up to these schemes that the pension scheme providers need to lobby the government to make enrolment automatic for new employees rather than the informed choice it's been until now. You'd think people would be biting their hands off for all that "free money" that they're apparently turning down.

cojak
21st September 2012, 13:39
All today's pension scheme members will be left with when they retire, if they're lucky, is round about the same pittance that all the people that never joined pension schemes in the first place will get from the state anyway. If you've ever been unemployed you'll recognise the irony: despite having paid tax for years to support the NI system, you'll find you get a whole 7 weeks to find a job or you'll be on the same crap money as every dole bludger that's never worked a day in their lives. Don't be surprised when, aged 75 (or whatever the retirement age will be then) you experience the exact same level of contempt.

So what do you do for providing for your old age Gentile?

alreadypacked
21st September 2012, 13:49
So what do you do for providing for your old age Gentile?

Marry rich, die young :tongue

OwlHoot
21st September 2012, 14:26
So what do you do for providing for your old age Gentile?

I'm pinning my hopes on robots being available and cheap by the time I retire, so I can have a butler, chauffeur, and (if necessary) nurse rolled into one. :smokin

Gentile
21st September 2012, 14:33
So what do you do for providing for your old age Gentile?

When people ask me that question, they usually have a pension themselves. And they usually rephrase it slightly to "but what are you going to do for money when you retire?". To which my answer is invariably "exactly the same as you're going to do, except I won't have spent 30-40 years first getting screwed over by a pyramid scheme that wasn't worth nearly as much to me as I'd been led to believe".

However, to address the question that you actually asked, my 'Plan A' is to use the property I've invested in to fund my old age. If that doesn't work (and I suspect it won't completely cover it), my Plan B is to keep doing what I can do until I can't do it any more, then visit Dignitas in Switzerland for a nice one way holiday at the end of what I hope will be a fulfilling life between now and then (assuming of course the law hasn't changed by then, and we don't have Futurama-stylee suicide booths on every street corner that can do the necessary right here in the UK).

Whatever I actually end up doing, I'm certainly not going to allow misguided worries about how I'll afford to pay for the miserable existence that appears to constitute old age to force me to make unwise financial investments here and now, in the prime of my life. I enjoy what I do, and am living now, in the present. I don't harbour any naive dreams about living some idyllic and wealthy dotage. Most likely, if I'm even solvent by the time my old age comes, and if I'm lucky, I'll be too knackered to care about whether it's the state, my property portfolio or some pension company that by that time sees me as a liability that'll be paying for my minimum-cost nursing home and barely-adequate 'care'.

The whole pyramid scheme that is pensions is based on the premise that people secretly know old age sucks, and they would like some way to make it suck a little less. Unfortunately, nothing is going to achieve that. Old age is nature's way of making you feel glad rather than sad when you eventually reach the end of the line, as we all will some day. Whether you pay some pension company a hefty portion of your salary / dividends each month whilst you're still young enough to enjoy the ride makes no difference to that harsh reality.

fullyautomatix
21st September 2012, 14:47
When people ask me that question, they usually have a pension themselves. And they usually rephrase it slightly to "but what are you going to do for money when you retire?". To which my answer is invariably "exactly the same as you're going to do, except I won't have spent 30-40 years first getting screwed over by a pyramid scheme that wasn't worth nearly as much to me as I'd been led to believe".

However, to address the question that you actually asked, my 'Plan A' is to use the property I've invested in to fund my old age. If that doesn't work (and I suspect it won't completely cover it), my Plan B is to keep doing what I can do until I can't do it any more, then visit Dignitas in Switzerland for a nice one way holiday at the end of what I hope will be a fulfilling life between now and then (assuming of course the law hasn't changed by then, and we don't have Futurama-stylee suicide booths on every street corner that can do the necessary right here in the UK).

Whatever I actually end up doing, I'm certainly not going to allow misguided worries about how I'll afford to pay for the miserable existence that appears to constitute old age to force me to make unwise financial investments here and now, in the prime of my life. I enjoy what I do, and am living now, in the present. I don't harbour any naive dreams about living some idyllic and wealthy dotage. Most likely, if I'm even solvent by the time my old age comes, and if I'm lucky, I'll be too knackered to care about whether it's the state, my property portfolio or some pension company that by that time sees me as a liability that'll be paying for my minimum-cost nursing home and barely-adequate 'care'.

The whole pyramid scheme that is pensions is based on the premise that people secretly know old age sucks, and they would like some way to make it suck a little less. Unfortunately, nothing is going to achieve that. Old age is nature's way of making you feel glad rather than sad when you eventually reach the end of the line, as we all will some day. Whether you pay some pension company a hefty portion of your salary / dividends each month whilst you're still young enough to enjoy the ride makes no difference to that harsh reality.


In summary this means that you were not able to make a decision regarding pensions untill it was too late and now you are regretting the fact that you dithered over it and so spend an awful amount of time trying to convince yourself that pensions are worthless and are nothing but a pyramid scheme.

escapeUK
21st September 2012, 14:49
Gold coins are the answer. They cant be taxed, keep their value despite inflation, and are all shiny!

DimPrawn
21st September 2012, 14:49
When people ask me that question, they usually have a pension themselves. And they usually rephrase it slightly to "but what are you going to do for money when you retire?". To which my answer is invariably "exactly the same as you're going to do, except I won't have spent 30-40 years first getting screwed over by a pyramid scheme that wasn't worth nearly as much to me as I'd been led to believe".

However, to address the question that you actually asked, my 'Plan A' is to use the property I've invested in to fund my old age. If that doesn't work (and I suspect it won't completely cover it), my Plan B is to keep doing what I can do until I can't do it any more, then visit Dignitas in Switzerland for a nice one way holiday at the end of what I hope will be a fulfilling life between now and then (assuming of course the law hasn't changed by then, and we don't have Futurama-stylee suicide booths on every street corner that can do the necessary right here in the UK).

Whatever I actually end up doing, I'm certainly not going to allow misguided worries about how I'll afford to pay for the miserable existence that appears to constitute old age to force me to make unwise financial investments here and now, in the prime of my life. I enjoy what I do, and am living now, in the present. I don't harbour any naive dreams about living some idyllic and wealthy dotage. Most likely, if I'm even solvent by the time my old age comes, and if I'm lucky, I'll be too knackered to care about whether it's the state, my property portfolio or some pension company that by that time sees me as a liability that'll be paying for my minimum-cost nursing home and barely-adequate 'care'.

The whole pyramid scheme that is pensions is based on the premise that people secretly know old age sucks, and they would like some way to make it suck a little less. Unfortunately, nothing is going to achieve that. Old age is nature's way of making you feel glad rather than sad when you eventually reach the end of the line, as we all will some day. Whether you pay some pension company a hefty portion of your salary / dividends each month whilst you're still young enough to enjoy the ride makes no difference to that harsh reality.

You sound like a barrel of laughs. It's usually blokes that are jaded miserable bastards, so well done on that one.

:)

Gentile
21st September 2012, 14:52
In summary this means that you were not able to make a decision regarding pensions untill it was too late and now you are regretting the fact that you dithered over it and so spend an awful amount of time trying to convince yourself that pensions are worthless and are nothing but a pyramid scheme.

Yeah, that must be it. That must also be why I took my money out of the 'gold plated' pension scheme that was available when I worked in the public sector, having decided it wasn't worth keeping it there.

escapeUK
21st September 2012, 14:52
You sound like a barrel of laughs. It's usually blokes that are jaded miserable bastards, so well done on that one.

:)

I thought she sounded quite sensible and grounded in reality.

Gentile
21st September 2012, 14:57
You sound like a barrel of laughs. It's usually blokes that are jaded miserable bastards, so well done on that one.

:)

I don't need to justify myself to you. However, there's nothing jaded about recognising that old age is going to suck: that's just facing reality. I enjoy life now, and don't let fear of old age detract from that enjoyment.

As for my being a "barrel of laughs": I wasn't actually attempting to make anyone laugh in this instance, but rather think. Or have I misunderstood? - was your opening post on the subject of pensions merely the build up to to some witty joke that we've yet to be blessed with the punchline of?

DodgyAgent
21st September 2012, 16:01
As for my being a "barrel of laughs": I wasn't actually attempting to make anyone laugh f?

You are clearly a high achiever :laugh

fullyautomatix
21st September 2012, 16:36
Yeah, that must be it. That must also be why I took my money out of the 'gold plated' pension scheme that was available when I worked in the public sector, having decided it wasn't worth keeping it there.


What kind of 'gold plated' scheme was this which allowed you to cash in so much early ? Does it exist or are you imagining it ? So just becuase you invested your money into property, the rest who have followed the traditional pension scheme route are mugs ? Also, the state pension could be a ppyramid scheme but a personal plan never is, unless you have proof otherwise.

Old Hack
21st September 2012, 17:25
It would take a lot for the country to start taxing property portfolios. However, with most MP's owning a multitude of properties, I don't see that happening for some time now

Gentile
21st September 2012, 17:58
What kind of 'gold plated' scheme was this which allowed you to cash in so much early ? Does it exist or are you imagining it ? So just becuase you invested your money into property, the rest who have followed the traditional pension scheme route are mugs ? Also, the state pension could be a ppyramid scheme but a personal plan never is, unless you have proof otherwise.

Well, I'm happy as ever to prove what I said, fa. What's in it for me, though? How's about if I'm able to prove what I said, you post a picture of yourself holding a message stating "I'm sorry, Gentile, you were right", to make up for being the latest in a short but notable line of CUK doubters? :)

MayContainNuts
21st September 2012, 18:12
I'm planning to build a war chest so large when it comes to my retirement I'm going to need a new house just to keep my bank statements with all those zeroes on!!!!! :happy

Gentile
21st September 2012, 18:16
You are clearly a high achiever :laugh

Is you implying that I don't have a sense of humour? Not so: Q. - What's orange and sounds like a parrot? A. - A carrot.

:emb :igmc:

What are your plans for retirement, dodgy?

Gentile
21st September 2012, 18:18
I'm planning to build a war chest so large when it comes to my retirement I'm going to need a new house just to keep my bank statements with all those zeroes on!!!!! :happy

You could already do that if you just moved to Zimbabwe or somewhere with hyperinflation. In fact, just stay put and the EU will probably be in that position soon enough.

MayContainNuts
21st September 2012, 18:41
You could already do that if you just moved to Zimbabwe or somewhere with hyperinflation. In fact, just stay put and the EU will probably be in that position soon enough.

£11M rollover this weekend!!!!!!! You've got to be in it!!!!!!!!:D

Gentile
21st September 2012, 18:45
£11M rollover this weekend!!!!!!! You've got to be in it!!!!!!!!:D

I haven't played the lottery in about fifteen years, since the first few weeks that it started. It still sounds a safer bet than handing your money to a pension scheme, though! :D

psychocandy
9th October 2012, 08:12
£11M rollover this weekend!!!!!!! You've got to be in it!!!!!!!!:D

Lottery = stupid peoples tax