PDA

View Full Version : What is the point of professional qualifications?



Gruffalo
13th November 2012, 20:45
Four interviews in a row, perm and contract I need to complete client based tests, ranging from 20 minutes to half a flipping day.

Does this mean taking time and effort to pass ISTQB, ISEB, IKM and OGC certified exams are a waste of space??

There is absolutely nothing, nada, stuff all contracting in my area just now apart from a major firm who advised the agent I was too good and would make the test manager on the project feel uncomfortable. Understandable for a permie job, but contracting you surely want the best that there is?!?

Seriously tempted to take a nice local job for mid 30's for a few years which I can quite literally cycle to instead of chasing down contracts that are not in existance.

Is the gamble of seeing how things are on the contract market in the new year one that is worth taking these days, like it was in the old days?

Local contracts seem to be around the pro-rata 45K mark which is making me feel that it is not worth the faff.

It is clear that firms are now wanting their testers to be hybrid developers - eg, I am being asked not just for experience of having testing on c#, but need to have actual development coding skills.

It is scary out there......

EternalOptimist
13th November 2012, 20:50
It is scarey, and good luck.

I never saw the need for professional qualis, and I never needed them. It's always been experience, blind em with science, sheer good luck, or desperation on their part .

how the hell a youngster , with big commitments, is supposed to cope with all this , is beyond me


balls of steel and a fck em attitude , I suppose



:rolleyes:

Cliphead
13th November 2012, 20:52
My degree < fck all

Online applications > 5 pages = binned

If a CV + references doesn't cut it and a 20 minute tech interview I don't want to work for them.

Carry on

eek
13th November 2012, 20:52
TM is looking for some TA's http://forums.contractoruk.com/business-contracts/83921-test-analysts.html

granted its Hellifax but at least its not Leeds and would give you a decent start point (again).

stek
13th November 2012, 20:52
I have got none qualies in IT!!

I went on a VMware ESX 4.0 fastrack course - five days, 7:00am till 7:00pm, each day, load of bollocks compared to PowerVM on IBM hardware, just rubbish and I did listen! Anyway, that's it...

No-one ever asks, I always say my training is on the hardware, I have an IBM pSeries, Sun T2000, and a Sun X4200 in the shed (posh shed) running 24/7, that's my training, can login from site usually, try it there first...

Joking apart I learn more from that amazing technology stack humming aways in my State-of-Art-Shed-Env than any course I haven't been on.

bless 'em all
13th November 2012, 20:55
I have got none qualies in ENGLISH!!



FTFY :smile

SimonMac
13th November 2012, 22:40
Where you based? I think we are looking for test monkeys, PM me

eek
13th November 2012, 22:43
Where you based? I think we are looking for test monkeys, PM me

Wilmslow would be my guess.

TestMangler
13th November 2012, 22:47
TM is looking for some TA's http://forums.contractoruk.com/business-contracts/83921-test-analysts.html

granted its Hellifax but at least its not Leeds and would give you a decent start point (again).

Don't think he's fancying it. the Test Manager is making HIM uncomfortable :eek

stek
13th November 2012, 22:48
FTFY :smile

Ok smart boy, ur shed pics and tech stack therein, show us. Bet it's a Hayter Hayterette crappy two stroke lawnmower and not a decent bit of Unix bit anywhere...

Or any model railway stuff u've hidden from the missus.... I've got loads stashed away there....

Mum said it's bed time now - night....

TykeMerc
13th November 2012, 23:23
Ok smart boy, ur shed pics and tech stack therein, show us. Bet it's a Hayter Hayterette crappy two stroke lawnmower and not a decent bit of Unix bit anywhere...

Or any model railway stuff u've hidden from the missus.... I've got loads stashed away there....

Mum said it's bed time now - night....

Interesting you follow up a criticism of your English and write it using the mentally deficient txtspk of the moron generation.

To return to the initial question, qualifications are largely for box ticking purposes so that your CV gets read and seriously considered.

Let's face it a lot of the qualifications that used to be meaningful indications that you knew your job (e.g. MCSE in the NT 3.51 days) have been devalued by hothouse courses designed to get a pass and not teach the core or specialist skills.

sasguru
13th November 2012, 23:45
Four interviews in a row, perm and contract I need to complete client based tests, ranging from 20 minutes to half a flipping day.

Does this mean taking time and effort to pass ISTQB, ISEB, IKM and OGC certified exams are a waste of space??

There is absolutely nothing, nada, stuff all contracting in my area just now apart from a major firm who advised the agent I was too good and would make the test manager on the project feel uncomfortable. Understandable for a permie job, but contracting you surely want the best that there is?!?

Seriously tempted to take a nice local job for mid 30's for a few years which I can quite literally cycle to instead of chasing down contracts that are not in existance.

Is the gamble of seeing how things are on the contract market in the new year one that is worth taking these days, like it was in the old days?

Local contracts seem to be around the pro-rata 45K mark which is making me feel that it is not worth the faff.

It is clear that firms are now wanting their testers to be hybrid developers - eg, I am being asked not just for experience of having testing on c#, but need to have actual development coding skills.

It is scary out there......

Depends on the pro equals. If its maths or stats its constant 1000+ squid a day. If its some Bullshit pm stuff, you're stuffed.

AtW
13th November 2012, 23:45
Four interviews in a row, perm and contract I need to complete client based tests, ranging from 20 minutes to half a flipping day.

Does this mean taking time and effort to pass ISTQB, ISEB, IKM and OGC certified exams are a waste of space??

There is absolutely nothing, nada, stuff all contracting in my area just now apart from a major firm who advised the agent I was too good and would make the test manager on the project feel uncomfortable. Understandable for a permie job, but contracting you surely want the best that there is?!?

Seriously tempted to take a nice local job for mid 30's for a few years which I can quite literally cycle to instead of chasing down contracts that are not in existance.

Is the gamble of seeing how things are on the contract market in the new year one that is worth taking these days, like it was in the old days?

Local contracts seem to be around the pro-rata 45K mark which is making me feel that it is not worth the faff.

It is clear that firms are now wanting their testers to be hybrid developers - eg, I am being asked not just for experience of having testing on c#, but need to have actual development coding skills.

It is scary out there......

Depends on the pro equals. If its maths or stats its constant 1000+ squid a day. If its some Bulltulip pm stuff, you're stuffed.

Mich the Tester
14th November 2012, 07:21
Four interviews in a row, perm and contract I need to complete client based tests, ranging from 20 minutes to half a flipping day.

Does this mean taking time and effort to pass ISTQB, ISEB, IKM and OGC certified exams are a waste of space??

There is absolutely nothing, nada, stuff all contracting in my area just now apart from a major firm who advised the agent I was too good and would make the test manager on the project feel uncomfortable. Understandable for a permie job, but contracting you surely want the best that there is?!?

Seriously tempted to take a nice local job for mid 30's for a few years which I can quite literally cycle to instead of chasing down contracts that are not in existance.

Is the gamble of seeing how things are on the contract market in the new year one that is worth taking these days, like it was in the old days?

Local contracts seem to be around the pro-rata 45K mark which is making me feel that it is not worth the faff.

It is clear that firms are now wanting their testers to be hybrid developers - eg, I am being asked not just for experience of having testing on c#, but need to have actual development coding skills.

It is scary out there......
For a while ISEB Practitioner/ISTQB Advanced was good for getting your CV to the top of the pile at big corporates, but now so many people have it the effect is weakened. Plus; When ISEB was rebuilt into ISTQB the practitioner exam went from open questions to multiple guess and that devalued it in many people's eyes. Also, ISTQB is not popular in the Agile community as it's seen as a leftover from Waterfail days.

If you really want a good testing qualification that could get your CV in the right pile, do the Certified Agile Tester. If, on the other hand, you want to be a really good tester then try Cem Kaner's BBST. ยป BBST&#174 Courses (http://bbst.info/?page_id=9) Tough, but worth it.

SupremeSpod
14th November 2012, 08:00
OP, maybe the interviewers just don't like you.

Just saying, like...

The Spartan
14th November 2012, 09:03
I have the ISEB/ISTQB Foundation Certificate in Software Testing and I think it's shite, the course was garbage and I didn't learn anything. Why people insist on useless qualifications is beyond me, I've been testing for almost 7 years now and feel the experience I have gained far outweighs any worth a certification could give me.

Mich the Tester
14th November 2012, 09:11
I have the ISEB/ISTQB Foundation Certificate in Software Testing and I think it's tulipe, the course was garbage and I didn't learn anything. Why people insist on useless qualifications is beyond me, I've been testing for almost 7 years now and feel the experience I have gained far outweighs any worth a certification could give me.Agreed; ISEB/ISTQB foundation is a disgrace to the testing craft. Practitioner used to be worthwhile but is now heavily devalued.

But I can tell you why they insist on this crap; HR and Purchasing numpties, and PMs who've just been promoted and know nothing about testing are scared shitless of hiring a dud, so if they ask for the certifications they can cover their back by saying 'oh well he had all the best credentials'.

It's a game. Play it well and you'll win. Sometimes.

Old Hack
14th November 2012, 09:17
My degree < fck all

Online applications > 5 pages = binned

If a CV + references doesn't cut it and a 20 minute tech interview I don't want to work for them.

Carry on

WCHS

I have a very solid CV, references and work history. If that, plus the interview isn't enough, I am not about to take some peurile test thank you very much. I have walked out on interviews which have stated in the middle, and 'we expect you to complete a 30 minute test once the interview concludes'.

Some want the moon on a stick.

speling bee
14th November 2012, 09:36
I reluctantly did my PRINCE2 Practitioner last year. It helps get past the agent filter but is of no use beyond that: then it is down to your experience, skills and personality.

Mich the Tester
14th November 2012, 09:39
WCHS

I have a very solid CV, references and work history. If that, plus the interview isn't enough, I am not about to take some peurile test thank you very much. I have walked out on interviews which have stated in the middle, and 'we expect you to complete a 30 minute test once the interview concludes'.

Some want the moon on a stick.

Here's another issue; HR numpties trying to pretend that their job is a 'profession' and grabbing newfangled tricks to try and make themselves look like serious, objective professionals in the hope of impressing senior management (who are sometimes just as clueless).

Old Hack
14th November 2012, 09:45
Here's another issue; HR numpties trying to pretend that their job is a 'profession' and grabbing newfangled tricks to try and make themselves look like serious, objective professionals in the hope of impressing senior management (who are sometimes just as clueless).

Couldn't be more true unfortunately.

What Spelling Bee said is also true, moreso in when you get extensions.

What HR should be doing, is looking for the 3 month contracts on peoples CV's, as this is what alerts me if I am looking. You can quickly see from the CV and references if they have the skill, you have met them so can guage the personality, the fit, but the only thing which worries me is 3 month stints.

nomadd
14th November 2012, 10:04
My degree < fck all

Online applications > 5 pages = binned

If a CV + references doesn't cut it and a 20 minute tech interview I don't want to work for them.

Carry on

+1

Far, far too much time-wasting going on in the industry these days. I've cut several (telephone) interviews short in recent weeks when it was clear the interviewer hadn't read my c.v., couldn't be bothered doing so, and the role was non-existent or had already gone to a "far cheaper" resource.

Lockhouse
14th November 2012, 10:21
I've got no academic qualifications apart from a couple of O levels (no jokes please) and I work in front office IB. I've ever been asked about them in 25 years of contracting.

Technical qualifications are of more use as they get you through the buzzword filter at HR or agency level. The rest is up to you.

The Spartan
14th November 2012, 10:23
It's a game. Play it well and you'll win. Sometimes.

Sure is Mich, that's why I started using opensource test tools seems they're gaining in popularity lately and the plus side is no licences to pay for to use them or learn how to use them :D

Mich the Tester
14th November 2012, 10:23
I've got no academic qualifications apart from a couple of O levels (no jokes please) and I work in front office IB. I've ever been asked about them in 25 years of contracting.

Technical qualifications are of more use as they get you through the buzzword filter at HR or agency level. The rest is up to you.

Better than a degree in Media Studies.

Mich the Tester
14th November 2012, 10:26
Sure is Mich, that's why I started using opensource test tools seems they're gaining in popularity lately and the plus side is no licences to pay for to use them or learn how to use them :D

Yep, incredible that corporates piss money down the drain on stuff like Quality Centre or ALM or whatever it's called now, but that's why they demand experience with CrapTool version 6.7.1, and it has to be 6.7.1, 6.6.9 WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED!; they've spent wagonloads of money on a tool and now they need a fool to operate it otherwise some dickhead middle manager who should never have been hired anyway will get the sack. JIRA, Selenium, Behat and Firebug are all you really need and they're freeeeeee. Avoid firms who demand x years of experience with a crappy corporate tool; it'll be boring and of no benefit to your CV in the long run.

The Spartan
14th November 2012, 11:19
I also find it to limiting if you specialise in paid commercial tools you kind of get pigeon holed as a QC or MS Visual Studio guy not to mention the cost of courses and licences if you want to develop your skills on them

stek
14th November 2012, 11:25
I've just had one along with all the Tech skills they are also insisting on fluent English, French and Flemish. I'm from Bolton, I don't even have the first one.......

speling bee
14th November 2012, 11:37
I've just had one along with all the Tech skills they are also insisting on fluent English, French and Flemish. I'm from Bolton, I don't even have the first one.......

Bolton! I used to work at thospicle.

stek
14th November 2012, 11:40
Bolton! I used to work at thospicle.

Townleys? In Farnworth, or the old Infirmary in Town which was demolished and became a David Lloyd?

speling bee
14th November 2012, 13:01
Townleys? In Farnworth, or the old Infirmary in Town which was demolished and became a David Lloyd?

Townley. The Health Records department staff from the two old hospitals still have separate Christmas parties (pasty and peas at the Conny Club I expect) as well as a combined one. When new staff joined, they get allocated to one of the old hospital's Christmas party groups. Having said all that, I loved it as a place to work.

Old Hack
14th November 2012, 13:02
Bolton?

stek
14th November 2012, 13:03
Bolton?

My hometown - the only thing I miss are Carrs Pasties - wonderful!

And Black Peas, can't get them even here in Yorkshire....

speling bee
14th November 2012, 13:05
My hometown - the only thing I miss are Carrs Pasties - wonderful!

And Black Peas, can't get them even here in Yorkshire....

D'you want a bit of wet on that, luv?

stek
14th November 2012, 13:08
D'you want a bit of wet on that, luv?

Chips wet, hmmmmmmm. That's pea gravy isn't it? Been a long time..... Here you get the gravy or curry or whatever in a little pot!

I went into Morrisons two years ago here in Leeds for Black Peas, without a word of a lie guy sent me to the CD section. They had Parkin though.....

speling bee
14th November 2012, 13:11
Chips wet, hmmmmmmm. That's pea gravy isn't it? Been a long time..... Here you get the gravy or curry or whatever in a little pot!

I went into Morrisons two years ago here in Leeds for Black Peas, without a word of a lie guy sent me to the CD section. They had Parkin though.....

Pea wet (thin pale green liquid that drains off mushy peas and available for free). And the correct answer is: 'Oooooh, lovely.'

original PM
14th November 2012, 13:15
getting back on topic

one of the problems is that if the company hire someone who does not have the qualifications (but do have the experience) and that person turns out to be a numpty then whoever made the decision will be asked why they recruited someone with no quals

so really it's just recruit by numbers and cover your ass....

Old Hack
14th November 2012, 13:15
You Northerners are sick puppies; thin pale green liquid on chips?

original PM
14th November 2012, 13:16
:ladybags:
You Northerners are sick puppies.:ladybags:

stek
14th November 2012, 13:21
You Northerners are sick puppies; thin pale green liquid on chips?

Yeah, and thinking of it is making me hungry again - might go to The In Plaice (geddit?) in Bradford City centre, you even get a slice of bread and butty and a brew with it in the sit down bit. However, I have German cheesy sausages to think about too...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fglEmRE19q0

Sysman
14th November 2012, 13:28
I've got no academic qualifications apart from a couple of O levels (no jokes please) and I work in front office IB. I've ever been asked about them in 25 years of contracting.

Better in some cases than a Ph.D in IT.

No bad habits or superior attitude.

Sysman
14th November 2012, 13:33
Yep, incredible that corporates piss money down the drain on stuff like Quality Centre or ALM or whatever it's called now, but that's why they demand experience with CrapTool version 6.7.1, and it has to be 6.7.1, 6.6.9 WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED!;

I've seen that applied where I started with 2.2.0 and worked my way up through every major and minor version up to 6.6.9.

Sysman
14th November 2012, 13:34
I've just had one along with all the Tech skills they are also insisting on fluent English, French and Flemish. I'm from Bolton, I don't even have the first one.......

That one will be in Belgium and they want a local...