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Hammer69
6th March 2013, 17:07
This thread is for those who have recently received a Discovery Asessement from HMRC for loans made via an EBT in 2008/9 using Kinsella Solutions Ltd.

I received notification March 1st of HMRC discovery. Would be interested in teaming up with anyone using the scheme and had the same letter. Like the other threads it seems we need to lodge an appeal and then align with all the other good advice.

Erhaab
6th March 2013, 21:30
I received my 08/09 Kinsella letter last week. Having read the views of Cojak, DonkeyRhubarb and others I quickly decided this wasn't something I could manage on my own.

Kinsella proved difficult to track down and I didn't think this was something my ltd co. accountant was best placed to help with, but the accountant who helped create the scheme has been extremely helpful and is managing my appeal.

If the administrator would kindly allow me to PM I'd be happy to share some more details.

Hammer69
7th March 2013, 12:00
I have an insurance policy through my limited company that my accountant holds. This covers me for legal representation, thankfully, even on this EBT scheme.

My accountant spoke with Michael Perry this morning and we are looking at him defending this. He did state that this is the first time he's heard of the Kinsella scheme so would be interested in all information that we can pick up to suppoprt the case.

Administrator please set me up to be able to PM.

The first thing is to lodge the appeal with HMRC.

AnotherContractor
8th April 2013, 14:30
Admin, can you please set me up with PM rights, thks

nubie
29th May 2013, 12:49
Hi ,

How has your appeal been going. does anyone know why everyone has been getting a discovery letter for 2008/2009 and further information required for 2010/2011 but havent seen anything for 2009/2010 or 2011/2012?

Cheers

Hammer69
26th November 2013, 07:54
Hi,

Anyone heard anything more? I received a discovery letter for 2010 / 2011 yesterday which we are going to appeal naturally. My accountant seems to be of the opionion that HMRC are now ramping up to bring a "collection" type of case. Not quite sure what that constitutes.

vern19
26th November 2013, 14:28
Hi,

Anyone heard anything more? I received a discovery letter for 2010 / 2011 yesterday which we are going to appeal naturally. My accountant seems to be of the opionion that HMRC are now ramping up to bring a "collection" type of case. Not quite sure what that constitutes.

I guess that would be someone being paid loans after Pt 7A of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 (ITEPA 2003) was introduced in April 2011.

antrant
3rd December 2013, 19:55
Hi, I've just received a notice of assessment under discovery for 2010-11 tax year for a company I was with called Keypay Solutions Ltd - I think this might have been part of the 'Kinsella Facility' and was also the front end for IT-Contracts Finance - can anybody confirm this?

Does anybody know if Keypay are still around, and if there are any representative cases for this loan scheme yet through the tax tribunal? Or is it just one of the many loan schemes that await time in the tax tribunal

Also, which is the best template to use for my appeal? Does it need to be as a written letter as I am overseas now. Any info would be appreciated, I need to get my appeal in as a first priority.

Thanks

Stevo65
15th January 2014, 20:38
Hi

I was with Keypay from May 2007 to April 2010. I received my notice just a few days ago, requesting tax for all the loan monies. To have to pay would be a bitter pill to swallow. I am afraid that I was unaware that i was in an EBT until I received the notice. Keypay do not respond and I see that a liquidator was appointed for Kinsella in Feb 2013. Can anyone give me any advice, please?

Erhaab
15th January 2014, 21:53
Hi

I was with Keypay from May 2007 to April 2010. I received my notice just a few days ago, requesting tax for all the loan monies. To have to pay would be a bitter pill to swallow. I am afraid that I was unaware that i was in an EBT until I received the notice. Keypay do not respond and I see that a liquidator was appointed for Kinsella in Feb 2013. Can anyone give me any advice, please?

A number of us have received letters. Ask mods to give you PM access and email me.

NeverTheTwain
7th February 2014, 10:33
I thought that you had to "pay off" the kinsella loans when you left their scheme - a third party actually paid the trust back via a bridging loan mechanism? Weren't you guys told to do this?

DonkeyRhubarb
17th February 2014, 13:03
NTRT have prepared a template letter for people to respond to the consultation. Please alter it in your own words.

Latest News | No To Retrospective Taxation (http://notoretrotax.org.uk/latest-news)

Some people will say it won't count if everyone sends similar letters but HMRC will have to report to the Minister how many responses they got. So every letter does count.

costo
17th February 2014, 13:10
It's hard to know if the majority of people who are reading this thread are affected or not, regardless of if you are or are not affected your support in this matter is urgently needed.

What is being proposed in the consultancy document gives HMRC powers that allow them to judge people "guilty until proven innocent" and force money to be paid without any court hearing. Could you imagine if you suddenly got a bill for more money than you could possibly afford, that you would be forced to sell your family home or go bankrupt? If you have children can you imagine how this will affect them, when they have done nothing wrong?

If you can empathise, please please take just 5 mins to help us (final date to respond is the 24th of Feb), we need as many people to object to what is being proposed as possible - the last document (Raising the stakes on Tax Avoidance) only 31 people responded (most of those professional bodies), we need many many more.

The letter NTRT guys have put together can be used a template (or even just sign it and send it in)

Latest News | No To Retrospective Taxation (http://notoretrotax.org.uk/latest-news)

If you were in the situation some of us were in, would you not want to ask everyone possible to help?

NeverTheTwain
20th March 2014, 12:37
I recieved an open enquiry letter in 2009 for period covering 2006/2007 but have not heard anything since. I assume I could still get caught in the Accelerated payments as the enquiry was never closed.

May I have PM access please Mod?

Erhaab
30th March 2014, 21:36
I'm in touch with a number of ex Kinsella / Keypay users. We're all using the same representation. If there are any other ex users who want to share information or discuss representation please feel free to PM me.

NotAmused
30th March 2014, 23:29
Admin can I have PM access pls?

NotAmused
30th March 2014, 23:44
I have just received an email from the scheme providers about having 7 days to give them quite a bit of money so they can provide 'support' in the future.

Apparently the fighting fund doesn't exist and the insurance is not applicable. Both features they use to be happy to promote.

They give very little information about their plans. The email looks like it was written by a texting teenager.

They have been not been contactable via phone or email over the last few weeks and now this.

Obviously there is an advantage to sticking to the scheme providers. But if they didn't set up basic features properly it does not give me a lot of faith in how they will act in the future.

I am not sure how to proceed. I might just be over reacting.

Would be interesting what other people's take is!

LisaContractorUmbrella
31st March 2014, 08:59
I have just received an email from the scheme providers about having 7 days to give them quite a bit of money so they can provide 'support' in the future.

Apparently the fighting fund doesn't exist and the insurance is not applicable. Both features they use to be happy to promote.

They give very little information about their plans. The email looks like it was written by a texting teenager.

They have been not been contactable via phone or email over the last few weeks and now this.

Obviously there is an advantage to sticking to the scheme providers. But if they didn't set up basic features properly it does not give me a lot of faith in how they will act in the future.

I am not sure how to proceed. I might just be over reacting.

Would be interesting what other people's take is!

definition of insanity - to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. You used a scheme which has now resulted in an HMRC investigation, you can't get hold of the company to speak to them, they haven't given you any reasonable explanation of their defence and yet you would trust the scheme providers to take even more money from you :confused:

NotAmused
31st March 2014, 09:53
definition of insanity - to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. You used a scheme which has now resulted in an HMRC investigation, you can't get hold of the company to speak to them, they haven't given you any reasonable explanation of their defence and yet you would trust the scheme providers to take even more money from you :confused:

Thanks Lisa, I agree. Just trying to see if anyone has a better experience than I have had.

DonkeyRhubarb
31st March 2014, 09:59
definition of insanity - to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. You used a scheme which has now resulted in an HMRC investigation, you can't get hold of the company to speak to them, they haven't given you any reasonable explanation of their defence and yet you would trust the scheme providers to take even more money from you :confused:

There is also the question of what are they going to do with this "fighting fund".

Any litigation against the scheme could be years away.

Are they going to fight against the DOTAS Accelerated Payment Notice legislation (APN) which is going before Parliament? Or try and challenge it in the courts after it becomes law?

I would want to know exactly what the money was going to be used for before even contemplating handing any over.

retrodeath
31st March 2014, 16:06
They're the only people that know the innards of the scheme so I can't see how anyone but them could fight on our behalf.

Ive tried to find out what their plan is but they're not responding. This might not be a surprise if the are putting a case together.

You have to look at the downside individually of having them fight on your behalf.

Either you pay HMRC or find another tax advisor.

Seems like a no brainer to me but that's my circumstances.

jbryce
31st March 2014, 20:07
They're asking for £1k upfront with an estimated £1.5k, it was originally £2.5k. One other tax advisor I contacted is charging a lot more but who's to say the fight won't need more in the future.

You have to look at the downside individually of having them fight on your behalf.

Either you pay HMRC or find another tax advisor.

Seems like a no brainer to me but that's my circumstances.

It takes minimal time to respond to an email. If they can't get it together to reply to you, do you really trust them to manage your £1K? Better to find other users and pool your resources.

Also please bear in mind that H M R C read these threads, so don't divulge anything you wouldn't want them to hear.

oneoftruegrit
13th April 2014, 02:12
Admin can I have PM access pls?

Admin, can I have PM access please

DonkeyRhubarb
28th April 2014, 12:17
Campaigning against accelerated payment legislation.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-scheme-enquiries/98518-finance-bill-committee-accelerated-payment-legislation.html

Mancunian
10th June 2014, 09:48
Hi
Have also received an assessment

Mods
Can you grant me email access please

doordarshini
26th July 2014, 14:10
It takes minimal time to respond to an email. If they can't get it together to reply to you, do you really trust them to manage your £1K? Better to find other users and pool your resources.

Also please bear in mind that H M R C read these threads, so don't divulge anything you wouldn't want them to hear.

Did you guys formed any pool? i would also like to join.

doordarshini
26th July 2014, 14:11
It's hard to know if the majority of people who are reading this thread are affected or not, regardless of if you are or are not affected your support in this matter is urgently needed.

What is being proposed in the consultancy document gives HMRC powers that allow them to judge people "guilty until proven innocent" and force money to be paid without any court hearing. Could you imagine if you suddenly got a bill for more money than you could possibly afford, that you would be forced to sell your family home or go bankrupt? If you have children can you imagine how this will affect them, when they have done nothing wrong?

If you can empathise, please please take just 5 mins to help us (final date to respond is the 24th of Feb), we need as many people to object to what is being proposed as possible - the last document (Raising the stakes on Tax Avoidance) only 31 people responded (most of those professional bodies), we need many many more.

The letter NTRT guys have put together can be used a template (or even just sign it and send it in)

Latest News | No To Retrospective Taxation (http://notoretrotax.org.uk/latest-news)

If you were in the situation some of us were in, would you not want to ask everyone possible to help?

Did you guys formed any pool?

srefson
27th July 2014, 10:08
Hi Erhaab, I am in same situation. Want to PM you but not sure how to do it. I am new to this forum

Nissan07
28th July 2014, 10:49
Admin can I have PM access pls?

HollyGolightly
28th July 2014, 12:53
Hi all - I too contracted through Kinsella then Keypay from 2006-2009 and received an investigation letter for 2008/9 to which I appealed. This weekend I received the Settlement "Opportunity" letter. I would be interested in joining together with others from this scheme. I have received advice from my tax accountants so far and have asked them what their advice is with regards the Settlement.

ajax007
30th July 2014, 10:44
Hi - Same here. I received a "Settlement" letter but it just says for years upto 2011.

How many years can they go back ? I'm interested to know how to reply if I wish to appeal. Any help gratefully received.
Is there a standard letter, for instance ?
Also is there a way to determine how much money HMRC are asking for without contacting them ( if that makes sense ) ?

Admin -- can you allow me to PM?

Foggie
30th July 2014, 19:20
Hi, I'm in the same position having received the HMRC letter and now looking at options.
I have contacted a few people and wanted any feedback anyone has.
One thought was to look at approaching M.J.Kerridge & Co. who I believe were previously used by Kinsella when HMRC previously issued some notices. Has anyone had contact with them or any comments. I was thinking that they may have some history with dealing with HMRC on this issue which could be helpful. Views please

AlfredTheGreat
14th August 2014, 20:00
Hi. I'm also in the same position having just received a settlement letter to which I'm informed to reply by January 2015. Did not receive any letters prior to this .... should I have? Would be keen to group together and share opinions/ideas with anyone interested.

Agree that we should at least try and contact M.J. Kerridge to get their opinion, has anyone else already tried to contact them?

Admin - Can I have PM access please.

Golfercarrot
14th August 2014, 21:22
I have also been advised to contact M J Kerridge, is anybody aware of what his strategy is and grounds for contesting HMRC demands? I believe there are payments involved?

I am also advised that the Phillip Boyle case from last year is a Landmark for HMRC which will all but guarantee their future successes against all ex Kinsella members.

Any views? Which way to go? :(

Golfercarrot
15th August 2014, 19:44
Dear Admin

Can I request to be set up with PM. Thanks.

Dolphinboy
19th August 2014, 08:06
I have a letter too and would like to contact others for their thoughts.

Dear Admin - Can I request to be set up with PM. Thanks.

doordarshini
27th August 2014, 13:31
Hi Guys,

Anyone interested in getting together as group and defending the case? If we form group of 100 or so, we can hire best tax lawyers in UK

Admin Please can you give me the PM rights?

Regards

doordarshini
27th August 2014, 13:32
Hi, I'm in the same position having received the HMRC letter and now looking at options.
I have contacted a few people and wanted any feedback anyone has.
One thought was to look at approaching M.J.Kerridge & Co. who I believe were previously used by Kinsella when HMRC previously issued some notices. Has anyone had contact with them or any comments. I was thinking that they may have some history with dealing with HMRC on this issue which could be helpful. Views please

Is MJ Kerridge reliable?

doordarshini
27th August 2014, 13:34
I have also been advised to contact M J Kerridge, is anybody aware of what his strategy is and grounds for contesting HMRC demands? I believe there are payments involved?

I am also advised that the Phillip Boyle case from last year is a Landmark for HMRC which will all but guarantee their future successes against all ex Kinsella members.

Any views? Which way to go? :(

I think we should all get together and fight the case...I am not sure Kerridge will be able to help.

Axeman
27th August 2014, 14:32
Probably worth getting in touch with MJK in the first instance.

LisaContractorUmbrella
28th August 2014, 07:13
I have also been advised to contact M J Kerridge, is anybody aware of what his strategy is and grounds for contesting HMRC demands? I believe there are payments involved?

I am also advised that the Phillip Boyle case from last year is a Landmark for HMRC which will all but guarantee their future successes against all ex Kinsella members.

Any views? Which way to go? :(

If you were looking into taking legal action then IMHO you should be talking to specialist tax counsel rather than an accountant

Fred Flinstone
10th September 2014, 12:32
Kerridge knows the schemes. He's already organised a fighting fund and has sent a couple of statements out. Anything anyone does right now is not going to prevent FN or APN. Any legal fight will be to get APN money back.

I suspect that you need to start saving for January APNs.

I have received Settlement Opportunity. I had 2 queries on different years from 6 and 5 years ago. No assessment received so not sure how much they are going to APN me for! waiting for advisor to get back to me is driving me nuts

Kinsella user
17th September 2014, 08:23
If you were looking into taking legal action then IMHO you should be talking to specialist tax counsel rather than an accountant

Kerridge advised they have spoken to a Tax Chambers, but they will not be formally engage with them.

Are there any groups organised who are considering approaching a Tax Chambers for legal advice ? If so, please can you send me a PM (personal message), as I don't have rights yet.

Admin: Please can you grant me PM rights ?

Thanks

Kinsella user
17th September 2014, 08:33
Kerridge knows the schemes. He's already organised a fighting fund and has sent a couple of statements out. Anything anyone does right now is not going to prevent FN or APN. Any legal fight will be to get APN money back.

I suspect that you need to start saving for January APNs.


This is a little misleading. Kerridge has not organised a fighting fund that will be available to fight the HMRC using Tax Counsel. The fees being charged are for letters that are being drafted in response to the HMRC.

The Kinsella fighting fund disappeared when they did.

Kinsella user
17th September 2014, 08:40
Hi Guys,

Anyone interested in getting together as group and defending the case? If we form group of 100 or so, we can hire best tax lawyers in UK

Admin Please can you give me the PM rights?

Regards

I agree. Personally I want as much accurate information as possible before the January deadline so I can make an informed decision.

I don’t have PM rights yet, so if anyone is keen please PM me. Admin, please can I have PM rights ?

Kinsella user
17th September 2014, 08:51
It's hard to know if the majority of people who are reading this thread are affected or not, regardless of if you are or are not affected your support in this matter is urgently needed.

What is being proposed in the consultancy document gives HMRC powers that allow them to judge people "guilty until proven innocent" and force money to be paid without any court hearing. Could you imagine if you suddenly got a bill for more money than you could possibly afford, that you would be forced to sell your family home or go bankrupt? If you have children can you imagine how this will affect them, when they have done nothing wrong?

If you can empathise, please please take just 5 mins to help us (final date to respond is the 24th of Feb), we need as many people to object to what is being proposed as possible - the last document (Raising the stakes on Tax Avoidance) only 31 people responded (most of those professional bodies), we need many many more.

The letter NTRT guys have put together can be used a template (or even just sign it and send it in)

Latest News | No To Retrospective Taxation (http://notoretrotax.org.uk/latest-news)

If you were in the situation some of us were in, would you not want to ask everyone possible to help?

Did this group get together, and is anyone able to PM me from the group if you did ?

Thanks,

crownio
28th October 2014, 23:47
Newbie here in same kinsella/keypay boat. Could anyone with group info pls PM me. Many thanks.

Admin- can I have PM access pls

Barnie Rubble
31st October 2014, 10:50
I'm also new to this forum and in the same boat. Anyone with knowledge of any group formed to fight this, or advisers you are using, please PM me.

Admins, can you please enable me for PM.

Thanks

thunderbird
24th November 2014, 12:13
I'm in the saem boat as a number of you and am considering joining the Kerridge group.

Can i be added to PM please ?

thanks

Poppy
24th November 2014, 13:07
Understand the schemes that we're marketed and sold as HMRC compliant. Knowledge is power. Feel everyone's & my own stress and frustration.

FuturePast
4th January 2015, 21:33
Having received the 'Settlement Opportunity' back in July, and with the 9th January deadline looming, I'd be interested in joining any group that may exist to fight any potential case, and to share information.

Admin, could you set me up to PM?

btw, my involvement with Kinsella ceased in early 2007. Does anyone know if the >6 year time frame affects my position?

NotAmused
5th January 2015, 21:17
Having received the 'Settlement Opportunity' back in July, and with the 9th January deadline looming, I'd be interested in joining any group that may exist to fight any potential case, and to share information.

Admin, could you set me up to PM?

btw, my involvement with Kinsella ceased in early 2007. Does anyone know if the >6 year time frame affects my position?

You now have until 30th June 2015. See
settlement-opportunity-extended-until-30-june-2015 (http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-scheme-enquiries/103735-settlement-opportunity-extended-until-30-june-2015-a.html)

No harm in registering now. Helps you determine your loan amounts.

And obviously interest is still ticking away.

Groundhogdays
29th April 2015, 23:29
I'm in touch with a number of ex Kinsella / Keypay users. We're all using the same representation. If there are any other ex users who want to share information or discuss representation please feel free to PM me.

As an ex-Kinsella/Keypay user, a while ago I received a generic CLSO letter without any enquiry reference or even tax years mentioned. Upon correspondence with HMRC, they confirmed a tax year and named Kinsella / Keypay. Since then I have been reading up on various articles and posts, to try and get a perspective that takes in all the pros & cons of the apparent 'Settlement Opportunity', without being entirely sure just who the opportunity is intended to benefit, or whether indeed it is as 'final' as HMRC makes out (particularly if IHT is to be factored in).

I would be interested in talking with other ex-Kinsella/Keypay folks.

Moderator, please can I have PM rights?

Granty90
5th June 2015, 10:03
I was also with Kinsella, for tax year 2006-2007. I queried the amount that HMRC wanted settled and their calculation was over 3 times more than was actually paid in discretionary loan payments. I've heard that Mike J Kerridge has a group of Kinsella/Kepay users and MJK are sending technical letters to HMRC challenging the CLSO letters.

Has anyone else approached MJK, or another "fighting fund"/tax counsel to discuss the position? MJK were not part of the scheme, but were consulted in the setup of Kinsella's structure as far as I'm aware, so should know the ins and outs well. Are most looking to fight or take up the settlement opportunity?

I'd be interested in having PM access if possible please.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

administrator
5th June 2015, 10:43
I was also with Kinsella, for tax year 2006-2007. I queried the amount that HMRC wanted settled and their calculation was over 3 times more than was actually paid in discretionary loan payments. I've heard that Mike J Kerridge has a group of Kinsella/Kepay users and MJK are sending technical letters to HMRC challenging the CLSO letters.

Has anyone else approached MJK, or another "fighting fund"/tax counsel to discuss the position? MJK were not part of the scheme, but were consulted in the setup of Kinsella's structure as far as I'm aware, so should know the ins and outs well. Are most looking to fight or take up the settlement opportunity?

I'd be interested in having PM access if possible please.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

PM access granted.

antrant
5th June 2015, 12:03
I am fighting it via MJK along with plenty of others, still waiting for a further update currently. Presume there is no progress in discussions with HMRC. I have never received a settlement opportunity.

HonestGuv
5th June 2015, 12:56
There's plenty of ex Choice Premier people engaged with MJK in a similar situation, waiting for updates. He must be representing a very big pool of people across a couple of schemes.

howmuchtax
3rd September 2015, 22:13
Hi all, I have received a letter too re Kinsella from HMRC relating to 2006-2007 tax year. It was a settlement letter sent on 25th August and they want an answer by 30th September giving me just one month to decide what to do.

HMRC have stated that they have estimated the amount of the loans, and they have gone and estimated more than I actually earned in this financial year via Kinsella (I didn't work for Kinsella until October 2006)

I have emailed M J Kerridge & Co and will see if I get a response.

I'm interested to know how other people are doing with their investigations please? What did you guys who had up to 30th June to pay end up doing?

ADMIN - Can I please have PM ability to message others who might have some further details around this issue, thanks.

administrator
3rd September 2015, 23:49
Hi all, I have received a letter too re Kinsella from HMRC relating to 2006-2007 tax year. It was a settlement letter sent on 25th August and they want an answer by 30th September giving me just one month to decide what to do.

HMRC have stated that they have estimated the amount of the loans, and they have gone and estimated more than I actually earned in this financial year via Kinsella (I didn't work for Kinsella until October 2006)

I have emailed M J Kerridge & Co and will see if I get a response.

I'm interested to know how other people are doing with their investigations please? What did you guys who had up to 30th June to pay end up doing?

ADMIN - Can I please have PM ability to message others who might have some further details around this issue, thanks.

Account upgraded, you should now have PM access.

RajaStyle
21st September 2015, 09:07
Hi all, I have received a letter too re Kinsella from HMRC relating to 2006-2007 tax year. It was a settlement letter written on 10th September but I only received it on 19th September and they want an answer by 30th September giving me just 10 days to decide what to do. Is this allowable ? Clearly doesn't give me time to think.

HMRC have stated that they have estimated the amount of the loans and charged me interest accordingly.

I'm also interested to know how other people are doing with their investigations please?

tried to contact Mike Kerridge but his phones just go to voicemail.

Any advise welcome

ADMIN - Can I please have PM ability to message others who might have some further details around this issue, thanks.

ChimpMaster
21st September 2015, 09:20
Hi all, I have received a letter too re Kinsella from HMRC relating to 2006-2007 tax year. It was a settlement letter written on 10th September but I only received it on 19th September and they want an answer by 30th September giving me just 10 days to decide what to do. Is this allowable ? Clearly doesn't give me time to think.

HMRC have stated that they have estimated the amount of the loans and charged me interest accordingly.

I'm also interested to know how other people are doing with their investigations please?

tried to contact Mike Kerridge but his phones just go to voicemail.

Any advise welcome

ADMIN - Can I please have PM ability to message others who might have some further details around this issue, thanks.

Sounds odd - how can HMRC send you a demand for a Self Assessment year more than 7 years back? Or had they previously sent you a letter to open the enquiry?

RajaStyle
21st September 2015, 09:40
Sounds odd - how can HMRC send you a demand for a Self Assessment year more than 7 years back? Or had they previously sent you a letter to open the enquiry?

I got a simple letter back in 2010 (I think) that said ' this is a letter to let you know we are looking into you're employment with Kinsella' and then I never heard anything until now 5 years later.

I did inform Kinsella at the time as they were still operational and they sais they were aware a few people had received these letters and instructed all verbally and by blanket email not to worry about it as they are answering all the HMRC questions being asked. In effect they are dealing with it. As went quiet and nothing further happened I assumed it was all dealt with ... idiot I know.

howmuchtax
21st September 2015, 13:16
I got a simple letter back in 2010 (I think) that said ' this is a letter to let you know we are looking into you're employment with Kinsella' and then I never heard anything until now 5 years later.

I did inform Kinsella at the time as they were still operational and they sais they were aware a few people had received these letters and instructed all verbally and by blanket email not to worry about it as they are answering all the HMRC questions being asked. In effect they are dealing with it. As went quiet and nothing further happened I assumed it was all dealt with ... idiot I know.

Hi RajaStyle,

I am in the same boat as you, I originally got a letter from HMRC in 2009 stating that they wanted information about my employment with Kinsella. Like you, I didn't reply to HMRC, I forwarded the letter onto Kinsella, who replied with an email basically stating that this is normal, not to worry about it, and they have taken care of it. (I still have this email to refer back to).

Then at the end of August a letter arrives from HMRC, asking for a five figure amount in tax, and guesstimating the loan amounts (which, like a lot of other people on here, are higher than the actual amounts I was loaned). Surely HMRC already have the correct loan amounts from the P11Ds that were sent back to them?

DotasScandal
21st September 2015, 13:26
Surely HMRC already have the correct loan amounts from the P11Ds that were sent back to them?

This has been covered elsewhere, but yes, HMRC do have the P11Ds, however they chose to use a model to estimate values instead.
Conveniently, their model results in much higher loan figures than actual. Is the aim to "maximize the amount of tax collected "? You be the judge...

RajaStyle
21st September 2015, 13:33
This has been covered elsewhere, but yes, HMRC do have the P11Ds, however they chose to use a model to estimate values instead.
Conveniently, their model results in much higher loan figures than actual. Is the aim to "maximize the amount of tax collected "? You be the judge...

On the anticipation that you didn't keep the records and you will willingly pay up on that basis ?

DotasScandal
21st September 2015, 13:46
On the anticipation that you didn't keep the records and you will willingly pay up on that basis ?

Probably the latter. Statistically, about half of recipients do not challenge their APN figures.

RajaStyle
21st September 2015, 13:46
Anyway would welcome any advice on how people are dealing with this are they reaching out to Mike Kerridge who was part of this facility originally or just negotiating/fighting/paying themselves ?

RajaStyle
21st September 2015, 15:20
couple of link I found, trying to dig around

Kinsella, Keypay and Berwick Associates (http://www.ejpandco.co.uk/blog/2015/6/9/kinsellakeypaybewick-associates)

HMRC Enquiries for EBT Schemes through Kinsella Solutions Ltd (http://www.contractorumbrella.com/ebt_scheme_kinsella_solutions.html)

DotasScandal
21st September 2015, 17:27
Anyway would welcome any advice on how people are dealing with this are they reaching out to Mike Kerridge who was part of this facility originally or just negotiating/fighting/paying themselves ?

Many are resisting it.Big Group (http://www.wttconsulting.co.uk/#!big-group/ci09) is a good place to start.

chubacabra
22nd September 2015, 09:05
Many are resisting it.Big Group (http://www.wttconsulting.co.uk/#!big-group/ci09) is a good place to start.

Yep join Big Group, many of us taking the fight to HMRC :)

RajaStyle
22nd September 2015, 10:01
Yep join Big Group, many of us taking the fight to HMRC :)

Thanks for the info although Kinsella is not on their list of companies they are covering looking at those listed on their site. Are all these schemes of the same structure ?

webberg
22nd September 2015, 13:23
Thanks for the info although Kinsella is not on their list of companies they are covering looking at those listed on their site. Are all these schemes of the same structure ?

Big Group looks at schemes based on type rather than product name.

Essentially anything with foreign currency loans (Castlemaine, Horizon) is type 1.

Type 2 is "early" EBT schemes like Edge.

Type 3 is later EBT schemes such as Cherrylon, Trentburg, Westhill etc.

Type 4 tends to be past 2011 schemes.

If your scheme is not named, send us details and we'll see where it fits.

RajaStyle
22nd September 2015, 14:05
FYI in the Telegraph paper 2 days ago

HMRC uses new powers on contractors: 'I was told to pay '£30,000 within 90 days' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11865618/HMRC-uses-new-powers-on-contractors-I-was-told-to-pay-30000-within-90-days.html)

chubacabra
23rd September 2015, 07:05
FYI in the Telegraph paper 2 days ago

HMRC uses new powers on contractors: 'I was told to pay '£30,000 within 90 days' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11865618/HMRC-uses-new-powers-on-contractors-I-was-told-to-pay-30000-within-90-days.html)

Great article, nicely balanced as well :)

Come on over to Big Group - The more the merrier!

KMITL
26th September 2015, 20:33
Great article, nicely balanced as well :)

Come on over to Big Group - The more the merrier!

I also just receive CLSO can admin give me right to PM others who receive the similar letter please?

DonkeyRhubarb
27th September 2015, 07:42
Big Group looks at schemes based on type rather than product name.

Essentially anything with foreign currency loans (Castlemaine, Horizon) is type 1.

Type 2 is "early" EBT schemes like Edge.

Type 3 is later EBT schemes such as Cherrylon, Trentburg, Westhill etc.

Type 4 tends to be past 2011 schemes.

If your scheme is not named, send us details and we'll see where it fits.

There are countless promoters (products) but they are all just variations on the same theme (small taxable income + loan). Some were probably better implemented than others though. There were a lot of cowboys who jumped on this bandwagon.

rocktronAMP
4th October 2016, 08:54
This thread is for those who have recently received a Discovery Asessement from HMRC for loans made via an EBT in 2008/9 using Kinsella Solutions Ltd.

I received notification March 1st of HMRC discovery. Would be interested in teaming up with anyone using the scheme and had the same letter. Like the other threads it seems we need to lodge an appeal and then align with all the other good advice.

I had enquiry letters from HMRC regarding Runnymede and now Kinsella Solution over the past 20 months.


Is there a statuary date limitation for these enquires?

The HMRC are asking for information and documents for the financial tax year 2006 to 2008 relating to Kinsella Solutions LTD and also Solitude Holdings.

I quote from the most recent letter that I received in September 2016
"The HMRC are continuing to investigate these arrangements and do not accept that the 'loan repayment arrangements' succeed in mitigating the charge to tax on these payments"

Surely, the HMRC ought to be chasing down the management and company director that set up these schemes. We, lowly, IT contractors were not the experts in the law. We choose these umbrella companies to save the hassle of running a limited company business. Why are they coming down so hard on the contractors rather than the scheme providers? Has HMRC actually caught up the original directors of the Kinsella Solutions schemes?

What about intrusion of privacy?

The HMRC asking for copies of my bank accounts from tax years 2005 to 2008.
Is there any human right that I can declare?

Actually, the financial tax year 2007-2008 was a particularly bad year for me when I was contracting. I had only won 2 short term contracts (2 and 3 months long). Eventually, I gave up and I found permanent employment by February 2008.

DotasScandal
4th October 2016, 09:18
"Is there a statuary date limitation for these enquires?"

Yes. It depends of the type of "enquiry".

Normally, enquiry = 1 year after tax return submission. If it's a "discovery" (of something "dodgy"), it's 4 years (IIRC).
Either way, it doesn't seem to apply to your scenario.

I'd hazard that this is a fishing expedition. You probably have no legal obligation to provide this info.

If you have to respond (which is the recommended course of action, even if only to tell them to take a hike), it's safe to take professional advice first. (We recommend Big Group (http://www.wttbiggroup.co.uk), but check with whoever you're comfortable with.)

PS: "intrusion of privacy"? Ha! HMRC cares about such thing about as much as the mafia does.

ChimpMaster
4th October 2016, 09:41
I had enquiry letters from HMRC regarding Runnymede and now Kinsella Solution over the past 20 months.


Is there a statutory date limitation for these enquires?

The HMRC are asking for information and documents for the financial tax year 2006 to 2008 relating to Kinsella Solutions LTD and also Solitude Holdings.

I quote from the most recent letter that I received in September 2016
"The HMRC are continuing to investigate these arrangements and do not accept that the 'loan repayment arrangements' succeed in mitigating the charge to tax on these payments"

<snip>

The HMRC asking for copies of my bank accounts from tax years 2005 to 2008.
Is there any human right that I can declare?



From what I've read on Google (yes it's a quiet day at work!):-



Is there a statutory date limitation for these enquires?
For timeframes, they can go back 4 years normally, 6 years for 'careless behaviour', 20 years for fraud (which I doubt would apply in this case).

The HMRC are asking for information and documents for the financial tax year 2006 to 2008 relating to Kinsella Solutions LTD and also Solitude Holdings.
I'm no expert on this but from what I've read: HMRC would need to have sent you a Discovery Notice (I think?) within the 4 or 6 year timeframe to begin the enquiry, and then they could take as many years as they wanted to investigate you. Did you receive a Discovery Notice for Kinsella before April 2015?


The HMRC asking for copies of my bank accounts from tax years 2005 to 2008.
Is there any human right that I can declare?

As far I as know, you only have to keep statements for 7 years. But perhaps HMRC can force you to pay the bank to pull out older statements?

RajaStyle
21st December 2016, 15:28
Has anyone else received another letter from HMRC talking about changes announced in the budget 16 March 2016 ? allowing them a new charge on disguised remuneration and asking you to provide voluntary information of schemes you may have been involved in ?

webberg
24th December 2016, 14:26
Has anyone else received another letter from HMRC talking about changes announced in the budget 16 March 2016 ? allowing them a new charge on disguised remuneration and asking you to provide voluntary information of schemes you may have been involved in ?

Such notices are appearing frequently and you should seek professional advice.

That usually means, professional tax advice, not advice from the firm who sold you the scheme. Often they may know a lot about tax but are not capable of giving you an unbiased opinion.