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dundeegeorge
21st June 2005, 12:03
I wondered why chicken was against this new proposed law about debunking the stupid, sorry, inciting religious hatred.
But suddenly it all becomes clear. chicken would have to stop posting, because every time he posts he incites hatred against christianity (based of course on the utterly false premise that chicken is representative of christians; he's not, I know a few committed christians and they don't seem to have their head stuck up their own arse).
D'oh!

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 12:05
don't you have some work to do?

dundeegeorge
21st June 2005, 12:06
don't you? that was a mighty quick reply.

widgetdance
21st June 2005, 12:08
Oh come on. Even Chicken knows the real reason it is bad.

Incitement to hatred on religious grounds or religious sectarianism is just as offensive to the areligious as it is to other religions.
This law would stop evangelists telling us we are all sinners and must repent. As an evangelist ChickenShit becomes voiceless.

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 12:09
for some files to be sent and so was browsing idely and came across this board.

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 12:16
as a society, we are surrounded by and constantly bombarded by solicitations to drink, gamble, smoke, view and/or get involved in porn, soft or otherwise, indulge ourselves to the extent of extreme indebtedness in various fripperies and so on ad infinitum. maybe chico is on a mission to begin to ever so slightly redress the imbalance, not that he ever could. why do a few posts with that particular content upset people so much while the whole weight of the onslaught of [i have to use the term] degenerate, self-indulgent, commercialised humanity fails to ruffle a feather? interesting..

widgetdance
21st June 2005, 12:22
I agree, we are constantly asked to debauch ourselves.

The point is that in all that advertising they can not say "You will be a better person if..." or you are "damned if you dont".
The religious types have no such barrier, or wont have untill this new law comes into place.

If Chico was a moral conscience and just told us we should do things differently because that is a nice way to be then I might (might) listen, but when it is built around religious zeal I find it utterly offensive.

I am looking forward to this new law as it will be an exciting time watching the different churches take each other to court, watching the BNP ask for Islam to be banned as it is based on hatred of all non Islamics, the removal of evangelists from TV etc... oh yes, this is one can of worms

snaw
21st June 2005, 12:25
maybe chico is on a mission to begin to ever so slightly redress the imbalance, not that he ever could.

Therin lies the problem, his mission is unwelcome round these here parts.

For me it's all about free will; no one likes to be lectured to by a bunch of holier than thoughs. Especially from someone like Chico, who backs up his religious arguements with some absolutely stonkingly bad assertions & statements.

Your obviously a religious man Scots, and I'm sure that's fine with all here - it's when religious people start lecturing the rest of us on how we choose to live our lives that 'feathers get ruffled'.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 12:27
I object to Chicos diatribe because reading it burns my eyes, green vomit spews forth from my nostrils and my palms bleed!

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 12:38
snaw. i am far too suspicious of mankind to want to adhere to anything made by him/her in a matter i hold to be so very important. however, that's as may be, but just supposing chico is right? and who is to say he's not? we come on to this planet, spend a few years looking around, pick up some vices, primarily selfishness, seek to satisfy those vices and then we depart. in passing, we accumulate a variety of ideas, structures and ethics, some of which at least attempt to provide a rationale for our existence. but in reality, it's like trying to step outside to see whatever it is we're living in. and we can't do it. none of us is able to step outside of the human condition and look back to see what is really going on. every single thing we do, every single thought, is limited by this restriction. so who's to say that there is no god, who exists on whatever terms he/she cares to delineate? it verges on arrogance on our part that we claim to be able to say that there is no god since in reality, we are not in a position to ever make that claim. some might say that in that case, we'd as well be penalised for failing to believe in wee green men frae mars. however, i don't believe that to be the case and there is ample opportunity for any person sufficiently concerned about the issue to ascertain that for themselves.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 12:41
Yeah, but what if Chico is WRONG?

sasguru
21st June 2005, 12:42
I have every respect for other people's religious beliefs and will even tolerate it if they try to convert me. When I question things however I expect straight answers that the person has thought about, not evasions, refusal to answer the question, a complete lack of logical thought, random cut'n'pastes, sanctimonious bullshit etc.

Chico has achieved the exact opposite of what he set out to do. A moron is not a good advertisement for Christianity.

widgetdance
21st June 2005, 12:43
it verges on arrogance on our part that we claim to be able to say that there is no god since in reality, we are not in a position to ever make that claimThe same arrogance is required to say there is.

I am not asking Chico to give up his religion, I am asking him not to push it at me.
If he holds his position up for scrutiny then I feel entitled, if not obliged to question him.

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 12:55
Anyone who posts an opinion on this board, whether religious or not, can expect to be, and nearly always is, vigorously probed on their assertion :eek . It just so happens that in Chico's case it is rarely his own opinion and so he gets flustered and/or abusive when asked to explain or defend that opinion.

I bear Chico no malice whatsoever, even though he is spectacularly rude, but if he or anyone else can't take a vigorous probing, they certainly shouldn't post opinions around here.

sasguru
21st June 2005, 12:57
>> if he or anyone else can't take a vigorous probing

Ooh er missus!

Careful, you'll be getting Luke GuyStalker and Bored Gay Geek quite excited:lol

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:01
even if chico is wrong, the basic tenet of what he propounds, viz personal sacrifice, is probably the only hope mankind has of long-term survival.
imagine a world if you can, where every single person is trying to give away everything he/she has. where every single person wants to be sure that everybody else is happy. essentially, that is new testament teaching. it is also new testament teaching that we ourselves will be unable to produce such a world yet the nt claims that that is precisely how we were meant/designed to live.
of course, the model begins to break down when **one single person** begins to exhibit the first signs of selfishness. and when you say "pure fantasy", ask why it is "pure fantasy". the answer lies in human nature. that again is nt teaching. but the nt promises a world such as that described above and it claims to be able to deliver on that promise because the promise is being given by the manufacturer.
at least, that is [some of] my take on the nt.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 13:03
even if chico is wrong, the basic tenet of what he propounds, viz personal sacrifice, is probably the only hope mankind has of long-term survival.

Who says we're destined for long-term survival?

We're only visitors in the grand scale of things...

John Galt
21st June 2005, 13:07
personal sacrifice, is probably the only hope mankind has of long-term survival.
-----------------------

Why? I will agree that the world would be a happier place if people lived their own lilves and stopped interfering in others' but personal sacrifice?

widgetdance
21st June 2005, 13:07
If such a world were possible, it would not need to be based on any religious ethic, being nice to each other and supporting each other requires no belief in God.

I do believe that it is a lack of religion and religious education that has brought us to the current state of selfish/Chav style living we have now, though there is clearly a moral majority who would like to help. Look at the donations for the Tsunami etc.
That religious education at least served in the purpose of instilling a sense of right and wrong.

threaded
21st June 2005, 13:09
Yet "right and wrong" are only constructs from the moral axioms of a "religion".

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 13:12
I think Douglas Adams had the best summary of all...

"...two thousand years after a man was nailed to a tree for saying what a great idea it would be if we were nice to each other for a change..."

Religion adds nothing to the basic tenet other than the fear that if you are not nice to each other you will suffer eternal torment. I am sure Jesus would be dismayed at the 2,000 years of "interpretation" that have been piled on top of the basic message.

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:12
mankind is intrinsically selfish. the first thing we consciously do on planet earth is to begin to stake out our claim on things, usually beginning with mum's attention. by personal sacrifice i mean putting others before yourself.
simplify the situation. if there were only two people on the planet, each of whom was happy to give the other all they had...and extrapolate that to the world's current population.
now assume that there are the same two people, and each would be happy to take all the other had, indeed one actively manouevres to acquire all the other's possessions...extrapolate...

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:15
that the new testament claims that mankind is and always will be unable to produce the kind of world described above. it also claims to offer a way of producing that world. it may of course be wrong.

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 13:17
Interesting proposition. Can't help but feel though that if we all gave away everything we had, we would achieve little as a species, and would all be sitting around in happy groups ravaged by polio and TB.

Some degree of selfishness is one of the top handful of essential survival traits for any aspiring genetic pool.

Not So Wise
21st June 2005, 13:17
even if chico is wrong, the basic tenet of what he propounds, viz personal sacrifice, is probably the only hope mankind has of long-term survival.
Actually that is the exact problem most people have with religion these days, when you get right down to it "personal sacrifice", "do onto others as you would wish done on to you" and so forth is little more than window dressing, all completely meaningless according to them unless you believe and accept God and Christ as "our savior"

And this is one of the major reasons i will always reject "religion", always felt a bit like a father saying to son, "i don't care what you do in life, be the next Pope or the next Hitler (though would prefer you to be the Pope), i will always love you.....as long as you show me respect, call me sir and worship me as your superior"

John Galt
21st June 2005, 13:20
You are right that this is an ideal SP. I think we can all agree that there is no such thing as a completely selfless person. I still have to wonder though why an entity would create something with faults and then spend the next few hundred milenia trying to erradicate them.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 13:21
I still have to wonder though why an entity would create something with faults and then spend the next few hundred milenia trying to erradicate them.

Beats watching Coronation Street I suppose!

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 13:21
all completely meaningless according to them unless you believe and accept God and Christ as "our savior
Tried to have this discussion with Chico - the apparent value that Christians put on what you say being as least as important, if not more so, than what you do. Unfortunately, as usual, he became abusive and was not prepared to discuss the issues sensibly.

ChicoLondon
21st June 2005, 13:21
What really gets on my goat is when pagans or the "self- styled atheists" come on here trying to intimate that anyone who believes in God is stupid. Time and time again I will take them on and show just how "intelligent" they are.

I am a man of conviction - I know what I believe why believe it and certainly ashamed to profess my faith in Jesus Christ. End of story. If you ask me an honest question - I will give you an honest answer. If you want a theological discussion - subject to time pressures- I am more than happy to oblige. If you insult me or others of faith , express any bigoted views then I will expose you for what you are - an ignorant fool.

Gay Bored Geek
21st June 2005, 13:23
Jesus does not like those who waste company resource

GET BACK TO WORK

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 13:24
What really gets on my goat is...

Xoggoth

and I claim my prize!


come on here trying to intimate that anyone who believes in God is stupid.

Nah mate, your failure to objectively answer any of the questions put to you regarding your self-professed beliefs has made you appear stupid!

sasguru
21st June 2005, 13:25
Chico, You're breaking one of the 10 commandments by stealing company time:

"THOU SHALT NOT STEAL"

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:25
that we will **never** achieve the world we are talking about precisely because we **will never** rid ourselves of our selfishness. it also claims to provide a real mechanism, provided for our sake, to get around this apparent impasse. however, as usual, it might be wrong.

Not So Wise
21st June 2005, 13:25
I know what I believe why believe it and certainly ashamed to profess my faith in Jesus Christ.
:rollin

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 13:26
Chico, can you not see that coming in here foaming at the mouth is not the way to go? This was a nice, civilised discussion of some of the issues, both pro and con. You ranting on about how intelligent you are and how stupid everybody else is makes the con case more effectively than any self-styled atheist could.

ChicoLondon
21st June 2005, 13:28
At least the "self styled" atheists know where they stand.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 13:29
If you want a theological discussion - subject to time pressures- I am more than happy to oblige.

Are you a qualified theologian?
Ah, didn't think so...
One can tell, you see.

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:29
"Can't help but feel though that if we all gave away everything we had, we would achieve little as a species, and would all be sitting around in happy groups ravaged by polio and TB."

since when has confrontation ever bettered cooperation? just maybe, our 'natural selection' is in fact a rump mechanism that merely propogates our current rickety populations.

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 13:33
For sure. Total selfishness is no good either. You need a balance - enough selfishness that you are motivated to do things other than sit around in happy groups singing songs, but not so much that there is no co-operation ethic.

ChicoLondon
21st June 2005, 13:33
more of a theologian than you will ever be.

theology -1 : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 13:34
So SP, if one was to compare Christianity with the other *religions*, which one is correct?

Is Christianity or Islam the true faith?

Are we locked in a survival of the fittest scenario here?

Might is right? Is that the way?

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 13:36
If you want a theological discussion - subject to time pressures- I am more than happy to oblige
Is that some sort of joke, Chico? I tried to indulge in a theological discussion with you yesterday to try and illustrate that faith requires hard choices to be made and is not all la-la-lovey-dovey. You were totally dismissive. I actually got up off my backside, got my Bible off the shelf, read some appropriate sections several times to make sure I understood, formed an opinion, and shared it. You will note I did not use the internet for any of this, and certainly did not visit www.cut-n-paste-arguments.com

Your response:

1. You don't understand what you're reading and are quoting out of context.
2. The devil used the Bible to tempt Christ.

Excellent theological discussion that was.

jabberjobber
21st June 2005, 13:37
Hey chicco, thanks for that. Do you ever worry that the Bible is not being maintained. It is 2000 years old now and times are changing.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 13:37
more of a theologian than you will ever be.

Oooooer, which deadly sin was that I heard break with a resounding snap then, eh?

BTW, is it possible to be a Theologian without being religious?

Gay Bored Geek
21st June 2005, 13:38
A rewrite by George Lucas would be appropriate along the lines of star wars one.

John Galt
21st June 2005, 13:39
Theology is literally rational discourse concerning God (Greek èåïò, theos, "God", + ëïãïò, logos, "rational discourse"). By extension, it also refers to the study of other religious topics.

Chico - please read and inwardly digest - everyone else please ignore

ChicoLondon
21st June 2005, 13:44
the·ol·o·gy (th-l-j)
n. pl. the·ol·o·gies
1. The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions.
2. A system or school of opinions concerning God and religious questions: Protestant theology; Jewish theology.
3. A course of specialized religious study usually at a college or seminary.

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:45
when you feel valued and when you are making a valid contribution? surely the best of human activity is achieved in supportive, cooperative circumstances? activity which arises from confrontational stimuli is [nearly?] always reactionary and therefore probably not fully considered as a consequence.

snaw
21st June 2005, 13:45
SP the assumption you keep making is that Chico by dint of being a Christian is selfless and those of us who are not Christian are by default selfish.

I'd disagree completely. Being Christian imbues nothing more than a knowldge of your own superiority over the rest of us sinners in my experience of them.

Not being Christian, personally doesn't make me any less caring, considerate and moral than if I found Jesus tomorrow would change those attributes.

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:46
for me. need to start tagging the posts & replies.

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 13:48
is that Chico by dint of being a Christian is selfless and those of us who are not Christian are by default selfish. -

no snaw. the *statement* i am making is that we *all* are selfish.

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 13:51
when you feel valued and when you are making a valid contribution?
Of course, but most of us need that little bit of selfishness to get going in the first place. I'm not saying there aren't totally selfless people who assess every action they take based on its impact on those around them, but what I am saying is that if we were all like that, our level of achievement as a species would probably not be what it is today.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 13:52
OK, it is not the fear of an almighty being that prevents me from cleaving some irritating little bastards skull in two, it is the fear of something more substantial, the penalty for breaking the law! Law which is enforced by the police, not a band of religious zealots!

Mind you James Anderton was a religious nutter - I met him at my Dads retirement "do", a very strange chap indeed!

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 14:01
which we consider to be capable of having a significant impact on our lives. if you have no belief in a creator you will have no reason to fear one.
is it 'well, 3 score and 10 and i'm out of it. what's in it for me then?' or is it 'well, 3 score and 10 and i'm out of it. how can i help while i'm here?' or is it somewhere in between? i find it impossible to get to that position although i have often tried. curious...

ScotsPine
21st June 2005, 14:03
most of us need that little bit of selfishness to get going in the first place - in the world we have made for ourselves, yes, that is probably largely true. but maybe in a different world we could conceive of different motivations?

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 14:04
'well, 3 score and 10 and i'm out of it. how can i help while i'm here?'

You don't have to be religious to feel that way!

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 14:30
but maybe in a different world we could conceive of different motivations
Maybe, but that's a highly academic point. ;)

I feel we have to make the most of what we have with this world. Being nice to people is certainly a good start and, maybe for some or even many people, the threat of eternal torment is what is required to achieve this.

WageSlave1
21st June 2005, 14:33
Being nice to people is certainly a good start

That's this board buggered then.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 14:36
Holy Bible - Spod's Version

"Be good, or else!"

Lucifer Box
21st June 2005, 14:38
"Be good, or else!"
That could be the new corporate slogan for the Home Office.

SupremeSpod
21st June 2005, 14:41
That could be the new corporate slogan for the Home Office.

I never claimed it was *all* my own work!