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View Full Version : Right to die, how does CUK vote?



d000hg
18th April 2013, 08:04
BBC News - Man takes up Tony Nicklinson right-to-die legal fight (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22191059)

Wondered what esteemed (and less esteemed) CUKkers think about this issue? I imagine the majority would support his desire but let's have a poll.

Personally, I am on the fence on this one though I don't take the stereotypical Christian view that "suicide is a mortal sin" or any guff like that.

Halo Jones
18th April 2013, 08:07
In principle it’s a sound idea,

My only concern would be for the venerable / vulnerable who could be manipulated in to saying that they want to go (so someone would get an inheritance I fear)

Mich the Tester
18th April 2013, 08:11
In principle it’s a sound idea,

My only concern would be for the venerable / vulnerable who could be manipulated in to saying that they want to go (so someone would get an inheritance I fear)

That could happen and possibly does happen already, without 'right to die' legislation. It probably just happens in a less humane fashion.

vetran
18th April 2013, 08:14
In principle it’s a sound idea,

My only concern would be for the venerable / vulnerable who could be manipulated in to saying that they want to go (so someone would get an inheritance I fear)

WHJS+1

Gibbon
18th April 2013, 08:17
That could happen and possibly does happen already, without 'right to die' legislation. It probably just happens in a less humane fashion.

Yes, but the pressure would be greater also would you be able find a suitable doctor to carry this out without them being some sort of ghoul or would they be forced to so against their beliefs. It really is an area fraught with moral and highly likely abusive concerns. The law at the moment is compassionate with genuine cases where a loved one has helped someone to die.

cailin maith
18th April 2013, 08:18
In principle it’s a sound idea,

My only concern would be for the venerable / vulnerable who could be manipulated in to saying that they want to go (so someone would get an inheritance I fear)

WSS

Ketchup
18th April 2013, 08:26
I think you should do it d000hg, no doubt at all in my mind

MyUserName
18th April 2013, 08:39
In theory I am for it but in practice I am not sure how it could be implemented to aviod the issues above.

minestrone
18th April 2013, 08:47
I noticed with some sadness that the BBC have managed to fill the 'right to die story mule' position again since the last one shuffled off this mortal coil .

Sadly that means endless media led discussions with lots of 'keeping it in the public arena', 'open and frank discussions' and 'raising awareness'.

Same as the gay marriage the BBC News folk just keep dribbling on about it until they get what they want.

Mich the Tester
18th April 2013, 08:48
Yes, but the pressure would be greater also would you be able find a suitable doctor to carry this out without them being some sort of ghoul or would they be forced to so against their beliefs. It really is an area fraught with moral and highly likely abusive concerns. The law at the moment is compassionate with genuine cases where a loved one has helped someone to die.

I understand the concern, the thing is, you could also argue that if the job is done by doctors in conjunction with psychologists and the family, as it is here in NL, the patient actually has more protection against predatory relatives than without the 'right to die'; people expressing the wish to die don't just turn up at a suicide shop, pay their bill and then get a lethal injection; they go through a number of interviews and receive counseling from various professionals to minimise the chance of abuse. One thing that doctors concentrate on is this aspect of people being influenced by their families, and especially where there's a big inheritance involved you can expect the doctors to ask very critical questions. Doctors here are not forced to cooperate in euthanasia (I don't think it's strictly legal, but tolerated in some cases) and neither are nurses. There is plenty of room for the conscience of the individual in these cases.

Gibbon
18th April 2013, 09:07
I understand the concern, the thing is, you could also argue that if the job is done by doctors in conjunction with psychologists and the family, as it is here in NL, the patient actually has more protection against predatory relatives than without the 'right to die'; people expressing the wish to die don't just turn up at a suicide shop, pay their bill and then get a lethal injection; they go through a number of interviews and receive counseling from various professionals to minimise the chance of abuse. One thing that doctors concentrate on is this aspect of people being influenced by their families, and especially where there's a big inheritance involved you can expect the doctors to ask very critical questions. Doctors here are not forced to cooperate in euthanasia (I don't think it's strictly legal, but tolerated in some cases) and neither are nurses. There is plenty of room for the conscience of the individual in these cases.

All this is a plausible argument, but the actual framing of a law and the safeguards would be nigh on impossible, you just can't have watertight legislation for immoral behaviour.

bobspud
18th April 2013, 09:08
I have commented on this subject here before but in a nutshell:

The spectre of fictional greedy relatives aside.

Today: Dying involves the withdrawal of food and liquids. Then a wait for whatever it is that your relative has to kill them while sedating them so hard they can neither communicate or even scratch their own nose. However what they don't explain is once they have withdrawn sustenance. Your relative will effectively have their brian poisoned as salt contents and blood toxins rise and liver function deteriorates. That means that someone who you love and who cared for you will end their days in a fug of drugs and sometimes violent hallucinations.

Or if the patient happens to be your dog they get quietly and sedately put to sleep while you stroke them in your lap...

VectraMan
18th April 2013, 09:16
Or if the patient happens to be your dog they get quietly and sedately put to sleep while you stroke them in your lap...

WHS. It strikes me as bizarre, or even abhorrent that we're far more humane to animals in death than we are to people.

All this talk of abuse and people offing their relatives to get the inheritance early is a ridiculous scare story.

Mich the Tester
18th April 2013, 09:16
All this is a plausible argument, but the actual framing of a law and the safeguards would be nigh on impossible, you just can't have watertight legislation for immoral behaviour.

That's absolutely true, and I wish this were explained to some politicians. However, you can actually deliberately create grey areas or tolerance policies to reflect that, perhaps involving sentencing guidelines or agreements among the legal profession to only sentence if certain conditions are met, such as evidence of coercion or abuse. It IS a big moral grey area, as are most moral questions, but there's a practical side to it that needs to be considered; I can´t stand the idea of back-street suicide clinics.

amcdonald
18th April 2013, 09:32
BBC News - Man takes up Tony Nicklinson right-to-die legal fight (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22191059)

Wondered what esteemed (and less esteemed) CUKkers think about this issue? I imagine the majority would support his desire but let's have a poll.

Personally, I am on the fence on this one though I don't take the stereotypical Christian view that "suicide is a mortal sin" or any guff like that.

In theory it's ok, in practice it will be abused to some degree in the end especially knowing how badly we treat our elderly in this country

Mich the Tester
18th April 2013, 09:36
In theory it's ok, in practice it will be abused to some degree in the end especially knowing how badly we treat our elderly in this country

Yep, but as I said before, if people are prepared to abuse the 'right to die', they'll be prepared to abuse the lack of 'right to die'; does anyone know how many vulnerable people are 'persuaded' to top themselves now, or not persuaded to not top themselves when people know they're very depressed? How many people are never visited by their families, who are either disinterested or unable to visit?

d000hg
18th April 2013, 09:43
WHS. It strikes me as bizarre, or even abhorrent that we're far more humane to animals in death than we are to people.Although many animal rights people would say we should treat animals more like people in this regard... and many people have animals put down when they could be treated to save on expense.

Either way, animals aren't people so I don't see why any comparison is particularly valuable.

Mich the Tester
18th April 2013, 09:51
Although many animal rights people would say we should treat animals more like people in this regard... and many people have animals put down when they could be treated to save on expense.

Worse than that, especially now with the economic crisissy thingy, many animals are just being dumped and left to die a miserable death. Not just old, sick animals, but especially young ones. The farmers around here often find a cardboard box at the end of the drive, filled up with kittens or puppies; most of them will try and find a home for them, but otherwise they just drown them in a bucket of water.

Seems to happen a lot around holiday time.

bobspud
18th April 2013, 10:04
Although many animal rights people would say we should treat animals more like people in this regard... and many people have animals put down when they could be treated to save on expense.

Either way, animals aren't people so I don't see why any comparison is particularly valuable.

Because I lost both my Mother and my first Greyhound to cancer. One went to sleep relatively painlessly and the other drowned in her own blood after one of the legions in her lungs burst while she was sedated... I spent that day and most of the night listening to her slowly drown in a hospice... Of course she had been sedated for several days previous because she was hallucinating and had gone blind had spent a night crying and screaming out for he long dead parents...

Does that make the choices available a little more clear to you?

Lets not get into the hypothetical debates about heaven and hell and having to stand in front of your parents knowing you sat and let them suffer...

For crying out loud even countries that still have a death penalty kill mass murderers with more care than the current pathway death bollocks...

Gibbon
18th April 2013, 10:08
All this talk of abuse and people offing their relatives to get the inheritance early is a ridiculous scare story.

I sincerely wish it were so. Mrs Gibbon used to be a manager of a council run old peoples home, the pensioners were left with about £15.00 a week after the council deducted payment off their pension, this was for incidentals etc. A significant minority of relatives would come in and take this money (having power of attorney).

Money can be a powerful force, when you see someone dribbling away your inheritance.

Also who would decide, could you really condemn someone to a painful end if you had suspicion of coercion? Is it fair to expect people to make these decisions? There is a lot more to consider than the seemingly simple premise of someones right to die. In a lot of cases the person has time to make and carry out that choice themselves without burdening the state with a moral dilemma. In other cases as I've said earlier the law views with quite some compassion those who have done this for a relative once the truth is revealed.

d000hg
18th April 2013, 10:18
Because I lost both my Mother and my first Greyhound to cancer.Well that's pretty horrific but on the other hand if your mother was a horse she'd have been shot if she'd broken her leg. If she was a dog she would have been spayed as a baby.
Comparing animals and people isn't really relevant because they're not the same thing.

That doesn't mean I'm saying people like your mother shouldn't have been allowed to ask to be 'put down' by the way, I'm only saying that a comparison isn't valid between people and animals and we're better to focus on the question of how we treat people in isolation.

(and I should point out my father is currently dying of cancer)

DodgyAgent
18th April 2013, 10:20
Is this another Thatcher thread? :eyes

EternalOptimist
18th April 2013, 10:21
In principle it’s a sound idea,

My only concern would be for the venerable / vulnerable who could be manipulated in to saying that they want to go (so someone would get an inheritance I fear)

I would go a little further. There might not be an inheritance, but massive costs that could be avoided.

EternalOptimist
18th April 2013, 10:22
Is this another Thatcher thread? :eyes


you supported them yesterday. and tomorrow

bobspud
18th April 2013, 10:50
Well that's pretty horrific but on the other hand if your mother was a horse she'd have been shot if she'd broken her leg. If she was a dog she would have been spayed as a baby.
Comparing animals and people isn't really relevant because they're not the same thing.

That doesn't mean I'm saying people like your mother shouldn't have been allowed to ask to be 'put down' by the way, I'm only saying that a comparison isn't valid between people and animals and we're better to focus on the question of how we treat people in isolation.

I agree its not a nice subject, and I am not attacking you either for that matter. However I do feel that its very important to understand the true cost of the way we behave today.

I think our choices are made even more stark by the treatment of animals. One should never underestimate the power of a pet. I worked at Petplan for a while early in my career and there were two sides of the business. Pets (dog,cat,rabbit,small things) and equestrian. While you are correct that the Horse side of the business was incredibly pragmatic. (gone lame? I will fetch the 12 gauge) I saw cases of vets accruing several hundred pounds to keep a £25 rabbit alive! Where loved ones and technology exist we often seem to feel that its right to keep on trying all the way down the spiral and that I feel that its time that the narrative was changed to a more healthy pragmatic view.

My account of my mothers demise while horrific is sadly not that uncommon for people that suffer terminal cancers. They grow, spread, then finally overrun their victim and this can be fast or slow depending on age and often the treatments are as bad as the illness. Thats just one way of going! Visit any hospital and you will find someone struggling to understand that this is where they will end their time.

And its that end that we must deal with dignity rather than fear.

******

Odd that this should pop into my in box while just such a subject is at the top of my mind but:

This came to me this morning. Even the RSPCA know when its time to call it a day despite spending several hundred thousand pounds on court fees last year :devil

So whats the answer do we let the dog die or cough up some contractor cash??


******

As you know Greyhound Gap try so hard to keep these appeals to a minimum but this time we are desperate for help for Neva a young lurcher bitch in our care who was found tied up overnight with a broken leg in the cold. She was taken to the vets by the RSPCA who requested euthanasia due to costs and this is where Greyhound Gap stepped in. If you can help us either with a donation or sharing the details below via your social networking profiles we would be so greatful. The operation is to take place tomorrow.

This is a direct appeal on behalf of Greyhound Gap

Please can you help us to raise £1500 pound for Neva's second surgery.

Neva's story...Neva is a young lurcher girl who came to us around 3 months ago. She had been found tied out overnight in the cold with a broken leg. The RSPCA were called and Neva was transferred to a vets under her care. When it was found that the vets estimated Neva's costs to be £ 500 they dismissed this as to much and requested euthanasia. Thankfully the vets refused and this is where Greyhound Gap stepped in. We paid for Neva to be operated on and moved after a few days in the vets moved her to foster care.

Sadly yesterday we found out that even though one of the bones had healed well another bone needed further surgery and stabilising with an external fixator. This needs to be done at Rutland House referrals and the cost to us as a rescue will be a further £ 1500.

Although we agreed to take Neva because we could not bear to see her euthanised funds at the moment for the rescue are at an all time low as we have a really high number of dogs that were at risk in our care. Now with the costs of the additional operation we have set this page up to try and help us to raise money for Neva's next surgery which will go ahead this week and her ongoing recovery care.

If by means of a miracle we reach our target and above and you feel rather than the money be used elsewhere within the charities remit that is absolutely fine and if you contact us stating the amount you donated and the date and means we will of course be happy to reinburse.

Greyhound Gap can not thank everyone enough for their continued support. Without people like you dogs like Neva would not stand a chance. We are nothing without our wonderful supporters.

You can donate via the link to below to Neva's own Just Giving fund meaning if you are a tax payer we can also claim gift aid automatically on your donation.

Also you can donate by paypal to treasurer@greyhoundgap.com

To donate by cheque please make payable to Greyhound Gap and send to

15 Farlton Road
London
SW18 3BJ

bobspud
18th April 2013, 10:56
(and I should point out my father is currently dying of cancer)

I am very sorry to hear that. I hope he receives best care that is available and that his journey is the best that it can be for all of you :(

MyUserName
18th April 2013, 11:06
(and I should point out my father is currently dying of cancer)

Sorry to hear that :-(

northernladuk
18th April 2013, 11:23
Isn't there another moral side to this to overcome here in the UK. Something to do with the action to terminate life has to be taken by a healthcare professional but their code means they cannot do it so got that argument to get over as well as the issues of his choice? Could be wrong.

d000hg
18th April 2013, 11:59
There's a difference between the healthcare person actually killing someone, and giving the person the right to kill themself. Is turning off a life-support system killing them, or allowing them to die for instance?

Patients could be given drugs or a button they can push. Although for paralysed patients that is tricky as they cannot do it themself.

SimonMac
18th April 2013, 12:02
Its a tough topic, if I am still mentally able to make the decision I don't feel its right to be able to end my own life.

bobspud
18th April 2013, 12:13
Isn't there another moral side to this to overcome here in the UK. Something to do with the action to terminate life has to be taken by a healthcare professional but their code means they cannot do it so got that argument to get over as well as the issues of his choice? Could be wrong.

Yes very much so. No one goes into a caring profession expecting to end lives. However what we are talking about is not rehabilitation its palliative. The morning after my mum passed away I had to comeback to the hospice and collect her final belongings and I was able to spend a while talking to the lovely nurse who was looking after my mum. The hospice was very well staffed with almost 1:1 patient nurse care. Her other patient a the time was a woman about the same age as me, who had just been told that they had missed some tumours previously when she had cervical cancer and that it had spread as a result and she was now in her final stages...

I asked the following question: If I was to campaign for the right to die, was it something that would be against what you and your team do here? Am I just raw from the experience or was my mums case particularly harsh?

Her response was simple: Many people make the statement that no-one has to suffer at the end and that all the best care is given in terms of pain relief and support: But then you don't see very many of them volunteering to work here for a month and see the things we see...

Angels walk this planet, that is a certainty and most of them work in hospices!